/sci/ - Science & Math

How many people has this radiation leak killed, so far?

Even with the increased chance of cancer for those exposed in the coming decades, it'll still be less than the 10-20,000 killed by the tsunami.

dear god, stop making these god damn threads. Shit is so old.

Weird that France has its important members in Japan right now.

>>2806527
Lol, not to mention the ATOMIC BOMBS the US dropped on those japs some years ago...

Won't affect us in any way, but it is a sad tragedy for the people living there.

CHERNOBYL: 600 DEAD
FUKUSHIMA: 20,000 DEAD (ACCORDING TO GREENPEACE)
y r people stupid

>>2806559
>FUKUSHIMA: 20,000 DEAD (ACCORDING TO GREENPEACE)
Not sure if Poe's law.

>reactor still out of control

>Implying that the fission reaction is still taking place in the reactor
>Implying that the SCRAM sequence didn't do its fucking job the moment the earthquake hit, halting the fission process.
>Implying that the quake itself didn't kill more people in 20 minutes than the contamination ever will.


The fuel rods are just REALLY FUCKING HOT and the cooling systems have failed. Yet that they've managed to keep the reactor from going into a full meltdown is amazing. A real testament to how safe nuclear power can be.
Even after getting hit by a 9.0 earth quake, then a tsunami, then having most security systems fail, they still manage to keep most of the material contained.

Attempt to derail shit thread:

I had an interesting dream about the world ending due to nuclear disaster. It was sort of beautifully cinematic and unfolded like a movie, i.e. the plot determined beforehand, but more affecting because I was experiencing it.

Do you find dreams to be somewhat predetermined, and/or with a strange loss of "self", i.e. experienced from an omnipotent or third party perspective? Is it just a subconscious influence from watching movies?

>>2806574
everything is predetermined you fuck

>>2806579
>everything is predetermined you fuck
lolwut

Someone needs to learn some quantum theory.

Inb4 Bell's theorem and that I'm skipping over the possibility that there is a hidden non-local variable system. Yes, I'm purposefully simplifying the discussion. The right answer is that we don't know based upon the available evidence whether the universe is determinalistic.

>>2806573
meltdowns that were supposed to be impossible
containment breach in all three reactors, because of internal hydrogen explosion in 2 and because of unknown reasons in the other two
reactor vessel breach suspected in 3
leak suspected in spent fuel pools
buildings flooded with strongly radioactive water
there are no in-built mechanisms for removing said water
water is leaking into ocean
japanese authorities move their measurement points gradually out to the sea to lessen panic
food is unedible, water is not drinkable
> great success for nuclear power

>>2806579

Pretty sure determinism doesn't affect dreams specifically...

Even if your life is predetermined, you don't tend to subjectively experience it that way.

>>2806583
Just because we don't know doesn't mean it can't be.

>>2806596

I suspect you're getting info from bad sources or jumping to stupid conclusions.

oh, also

>containment breach in all three reactors, because of internal hydrogen explosion in 2 and because of unknown reasons in the other two
>all three
>2
>other two
>wat

>>2806612
Well, the alternative is faster than light interactions, aka action at a distance, which also rubs scientists the wrong way.

My point is that it's quite premature to claim determinalism based upon the available evidence.

>>2806596
That water is just from the steam they let out, there was tons of that stuff and the upper floor roof was initially there. There could only be a hydrogen explosion once the steam had condensed and hydrogen/oxygen ratio was proper.

>>2806596
>Still implying that this is a bigger disaster than the earthquake and tsunami itself

This is the part that gets me the most. While several dozen workers will suffer from radiation poisoning and maybe a small community may see increased cancer rates, it still doesn't compare to the level of death and destruction the earthquake itself has caused.

While the situation at the Fukushima plants is worrisome, I find it revolting that the media is focusing so much on the power plant compared to the quake itself.

The meltdowns weren't "supposed to be impossible". What is impossible is that it becomes another Chornobyl-style accident.

The current situation at Fukushima is similar to the accident at Three Mile Island.

>>2806623
It's because they fear that they me be affected by the radiation, where as the tsunami/quake wont harm them.
Fucking disgusting alright.

>>2806631

No, it's because "radiation" inherently produces a more emotional reaction among an uneducated populace. An earthquake is just the ground shaking. Radiation is the invisible enemy. Are you seriously implying there will be international consequences more serious than the earthquake? o rly?

>>2806596
Actually it's GOOD that the radioactive material is getting into the ocean. There it will be diffused to safe levels in a short timescale.

The alternative is having it contaminate the land around the sight, giving us another Pripyat.

Read the post nigger, I'm implying that the journalists feel that way.
Of course there's no international problem.

>>2806645

It's a long way from that, most of the stuff released won't be around for very long. The half life of Iodine 131 is 8 days.

1760 tons of fuel are in building 1-4. That's 10 times more than in Chernobyl. Good thing is there is no graphite burning to catapult it into the air. The water vapor from cooling the pools and reactors might have carried it though.

>>2806664
There was a lot of Cesium-137 released though, but most of it has gone out into the ocean. Which is a good thing. After a few years, the C137 will have been diluted in the Pacific enough for the water to be safe again.

>>2806684
Implying if 10x more radiation was leaked then Chernobyl the entire world would not be able to tell and mass deaths due to radiation poisoning would not have occurred.

>>2806692
I didn't say that 1760 tons of fuel were burning right now. They're not even sure if there were any chain reactions outside the reactors or not. But they can't promise to keep possible chain reactions in the stored fuel rods or breached reactors from happening even right now after all their cooling measures.

What's really bad is that they had to use salt water to cool it. Now there's a crystallized layer of salt all over the rods and reactors hindering the cooling just like when you would smear isolator over your CPU before placing the heatsink on it.

>>2806719
>chain reactions
wtf am I reading?

There are no chain reactions in anything but a nuclear bomb dude, and there will not be a (runaway) chain reaction in any modern running nuclear plant.

>>2806692
Actually even at Chernobyl only the on-site workers got radiation poisoning, and they were using next to no safety measures at all. Out of 300 or so 28 died within a month, the rest are still alive today or have died in ways not related to their radiation exposure. They still have plenty of time to get cancer, which may or may not be treatable.

>>2806738

I hope that you are trolling. Yes, you are. And it made me a little mad.

>>2806748
no you are just ignorant

>>2806726

All functioning reactors undergo a supercritical chain reaction, otherwise they would not function at all. Unlike a bomb, the extent of that reaction is controlled.

You are correct however in that there is no chain reaction going on in the spent fuel, or we'd sure as hell know about it. The problem with the spent fuel is that the fission byproducts that built up over time are themselves still decaying (which is not the same thing as a fission chain reaction) and producing heat. As much as a megawatt in some cases.

This situation could have been avoided had they decommissioned those plants as planned a decade ago and replaced them with Gen IVs capable of in-situ fuel processing.

This is why I've stopped surfing by TV news shows even for a moment. A huge quake and tsunami hits, kills a bunch of people in the blink of an eye, but we're focusing on a fucking reactor that survived it all with a hiccup?

Supposedly, I read the reason why the problem happened is because some retard activists got their way over something about that backup? I've been a googlin', but can't seem to figure out any good search terms, does any one know if this actually happened?

>>2806759
>All functioning reactors undergo a supercritical chain reaction
You mean subcritical, right?

>>2806726
>>2806759
As far as I was aware (and I'm not a nuclear expert), the supercritical state required a very precise set of explosions around the rod forcing it to become suddenly more dense? That is how the implosion-type nuclear bomb works isn't it?

I highly doubt this is going to happen inside a nuclear reactor.

>>2806760
In France a commie-greenie launched a few RPGs at a plant but caused only aesthetic damage.

>>2806719
>smear isolator over your CPU

wat

>>2806763
>>2806762
>>2806759
>>2806726
Sorry, I was too quick to attack "chain reaction". The guy I initially attacked wasn't clearly wrong in his usage of vocabulary.

The later dude who said "supercritical chain reaction", however, has no clue what he's talking about, or made quite a huge typo.

>>2806596

>unedible

lol'd @ u, retard

https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://energyfromthorium.com/pps/FukushimaDaiichiAREVA.pps&pl
i=1

>>2806762

No. Absolutely not. You need to stop adopting Hollywood's definitions.

Supercritical does not automatically mean BOOM, for crissake.

Criticality has to do with neutron economy. A subcritical reaction would peter out and do nothing because it's not producing enough neutrons to sustain its own fission.

A critical reaction would sustain itself but not produce usable power.

Thus any power-generating reactor must be supercritical, producing a surplus of neutrons whose energy is captured as heat.

>>2806763
>As far as I was aware (and I'm not a nuclear expert), the supercritical state required a very precise set of explosions around the rod forcing it to become suddenly more dense

No. This is completely incorrect.
That's a good way to achieve an uncontrolled criticality event, but it is not the definition of supercriticality.

>>2806768

I am disappointed by your hubris.

>>2806763

In an atomic bomb you're using an explosive to force the highly pure radioactive material together for long enough to cause a really big explosion.

Ordinarily if you have a really bad criticality accident, there will be a minor explosion that will disperse the material within a fraction of a second. You wouldn't want to stand next to it, and it will make a mess, but that's it.

>>2806781
Ok, my mistake again. Btw, it's not hollywood, but I conflated supercritical /mass/ and a supercritical /reaction/. My bad.

>>2806781
>I am disappointed by your hubris.
Meh, bad night. Also tired. Also 4chan so I don't really care.

Pic partially related. My bad.

>>2806762

Watch this. There will be a test on it later.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZR0UKxNPh8

>>2806796
Understood.

>>2806781
>>2806782
It's nice to be corrected in a constructive way, thanks guys.

I'm actually new to /sci/, (I'm an 'ancientfag' from /b/ and have just hung in /a/ and /x/ for the last few years. This board seems much more civil until someone mentions the G-O-D word.

>>2806619
how come no one on the news has raised that possibility

>>2806804
We try. At least, I try, sometimes. Apparently not today. My bad.

>>2806781
Sorry. Usually I'm better than this.

Apologies. Still friends? lol.

I hope someone you love dies.

>>2806820
No love eh? Well, no one really loves me, so it's ok.

>>2806813
Wow, admitting when you're wrong. Good on you.

>>2806825
I'll be better at not speaking out my ass, I promise. My attention was elsewhere, and I thought it was just some stupid fear monger talking about a runaway nuclear explosion.

I keep on seeing in the news people comparing this to Chernobyl, and then portentously looking at the camera and quoting the 4000 dead figure, totally ignoring the fact that pretty much all the people who got thyroid cancer got it from drinking contaminated milk which was only given to people because communist are stupid

Chernobyl: WORST NUCLEAR DISASTER OF ALL TIME
>less than 100 directly attributable deaths
>Almost all the rest of the deaths are from moron calls by the authorities such as the milk thing
>no evidence of long term health impacts
>enormous nature reserve, filled to the brim with animals showing no signs of any health defects whatsoever

I don't know about you, but I stay awake all night wearing a gas mask and waving a Geiger counter around, such is my terror that this could be THE NEXT CHERNOBYL

>>2806838

Such is life in the Zone.

>>2806838
dude, have you eve played STALKER? seriously man, chernobyl is not a fucking nature reserve.

>>2806559
Not sure if you're taking into account like cancer or whatever, but Chernobyl only killed like 58 people as a direct result of radiation

>>2806842

He's referring to the exclusion zone, not Pripyat

>>2806842
While STALKER is a fantastic game, it's not a realistic representation of wildlife in The Zone.

>>2806842

Why aren't reactors built underground, instead of just in an exposed shed like fukushima?
If something went wrong, you could pile earth over the top, fence the area off and forget about it

>>2806858
groundwater contamination, during a meltdown the molten uranium pretty much goes through everything

>>2806796
Thank you btw. Good video. Saving it.

>>2806870

Doesn't look like this thing >>2806796 has that problem. Why the fuck didn't we build these 50 years ago?

>>2806858

groundwater. in fact in chernobyl one of the big things there was ensuring the molten remnants didn't burn through to the groundwater because then the entire population of ukraine and every nation bordering the black sea, and from there the mediterranean, would have been DEAD AS FUCK. miners dug under the core and built a huge cooling system underneath it to prevent that from happening.

>>2806838
Hasn't the combined leak from Fukushima already tripled the radiation release from Chernobyl, and isn't it true that one of the compromised reactors uses an especially horrible mix called "MOX" or some shit like that that's WAY worse when it leaks out or whatever than anything at Chernobyl?

From what I've read this shit has already leaked 3 times as much radiation as Chernobyl, but it's just supposedly not as concentrated or some shit.

I don't buy it, we're probably going to have contaminated milk and shit in the States and they're definitely going to have it in Japan.

"Nothing to see here, but we can't remove this body of this dead man found 14 miles from the plant because he is too radioactive to move, no worries though you are all safe here in Japan!"

I saw that shit on the news yesterday, they are just leaving him in the building miles away from the plant where he died, cus it's too dangerous to handle him.

But simultaneously NOTHING'S WRONG!

>>2806796
>5-gram pebble of unrefined idaho rock contains approximately 25 milligrams of thorium
>enough energy to orbit an SUV

fucking lol'd

>>2806893
Also, I bet when we start getting cancer they just will act like it's a natural thing that's happening and poor diet caused it and shit, not radiation, this way it won't be linked to the Fukushima reactor when people all over the world start getting thyroid cancer at increased rates.

After all the public health and public safety is 100% trumped by the interests of Wall Street and anyone who believes otherwise is fucking retarded and hasn't been paying attention.

http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2010/11/08/how-to-buy-your-way-out-of-a-felony-charge/

Banker hits and runs a Doctor, causing spinal cord injuris and nearly killing the Doctor, who is permanently injured for the rest of his life.

Prosecutors decide that it would be bad for the Banker's career if he were charged for any crimes.

I'm sure if a black man hit a banker with his car and then ran away after permanently crippling the banker, the police/prosecutors would say "This day laborer's job could be effected if he goes to prison, so we're not going to charge him with any crime."

Since admitting nuclear shit is unsafe would harm wall street, even when a disaster happens, it's all smiles. :)

>>2806908

They're perfectly capable of making safe nuclear shit.

They decided not to because safe reactors can't make weapons-grade materials.

>>2806913
I'm not talking about "capability" I'm talking about what they actually did, and what is going down at Fukushima.

> First they told us there was no way anything bad could happen.

> Then they said lol jk but it's not going to be that bad.

> Then they said LOL sry jkjk but seriously guys no radiation can cross the ocean, there's just no way.

> Then they said ROFL omg yeah about that, okay yeah so radiation can make it but don't worry it's only a little!

> Then magically all the radiation detectors along the California Coast from San Diego to San Fransisco have been "offline for maintenance" during the crisis and till current.

> NOTHING TO SEE HERE.

>>2806893
>Hasn't the combined leak from Fukushima already tripled the radiation release from Chernobyl

Sounds like bullshit to me. Sauce?

>isn't it true that one of the compromised reactors uses an especially horrible mix called "MOX" or some shit like that that's WAY worse when it leaks out or whatever than anything at Chernobyl?

The actual fuel isn't what's being released.

>Also, I bet when we start getting cancer they just will act like it's a natural thing that's happening and poor diet caused it and shit, not radiation, this way it won't be linked to the Fukushima reactor when people all over the world start getting thyroid cancer at increased rates.

I don’t wanna talk to a scientist, y’all motherfuckers lying and getting me pissed.

>>2806917

I suggest you find a new source of information, or just stop being a fucking idiot.

>>2806924

This was the mainstream media, which I agree with you is shit, but this is exactly what they did so I'm not sure what you are disputing, I agree with you that they were bullshitting hard core and trying to make things seem more okay than they were so that markets wouldn't (and won't) crash.

>>2806917
If you're that fucking concerned, go out and buy a geiger counter. They are dirt cheap, I've got 6, including a civil defence one from the 60's. The newer ones are about the same size as a large TV remote and are stupidly sensitive. (Don't like them as much because they don't make the click click clickclickclikclickcik noise) Hell, even the civil defence one picks up the glow in the dark elements on my watch.

If there was increased radiation levels, I, and thousands of other people all over the world, would have picked it up by now.
And before anyone asks, I collect them because I'm a weirdo and that's my bag, baby

>>2806838
4,000 have no died. It is an estimate from 2000. As of 2005 6,500 had got thyroid cancer of which 500 died because thyroid cancer is quite treatable. There has been no increase in other cancer rates attributable to Chernobyl.

>>2806928
just for fun here's march 11:

http://www.paultastic.com/showpage/Chernobyl-1986-vs-Fukushima-2011-Radiation

They are reporting here that the entire radiation leak of Fukushima is (LMAO) less than a single breast cancer mammogram.

I can't believe you don't remember the chain of reporting, that's fucking strange to me, do you have memory issues?

lower than chernobyl
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/world/2011-03/24/content_12218618.htm

comparable to chernobyl
http://www.worldnews.fm/russia-today/2011/03/fukushima-plutonium-leak-comparable-to-chernobyl-disast
er/

AND FINALLY TO PRESENT:

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20305-caesium-fallout-from-fukushima-rivals-chernobyl.html

> Caesium fallout from Fukushima is HIGHER than Chernobyl.

But fuck me right, I'm daring to remember how this was reported and how things so conveniently 'changed'.

>>2806908
> implying japan is US
they have a significantly popular communist party in japan

>>2806947
> does not realize different sources give different values because it's the media that's corrupt
fullretard.jpg

>>2806947

You make too much sense and are a danger to the people's socialist democratic party of stupid.

To the clown asylum you go.

>>2806949
so?

>>2806953

How can you claim I don't "realize" that the media is part of Wall Street when I all but stated this in my earlier posts? Do you need help reading?

By and large they started the reporting of this as "it's nothing but we're gonna report it anyway" and then it slowly, slowly changed into "lol Caesium fallout is greater than Chernobyl" but people still don't even know this, and still believe that this shit is a fucking 100 bananas because of initial propaganda.

My entire point was that the reporting on this was corrupt you fucking dumbass.

>>2806956
they have inherently better morals

>>2806959
Everybody has had their stance since the beginning. The nuclear authorities are about the only ones who are actually adjusting their reporting based on truth, some of the media is just retwleeting the rest of the media and cherry-picking sources, going all "the consensus is shifting!1!!!(1one"

>>2806959
IT'S ALL IN THE NUMBERS!

FOR OVER 100 YEARS THERE HAS BEEN A CONSPIRACY OF PLUTOCRATS AGAINST THE COMMON MAN

WAKE UP SHEEPLE!

/x/ is over yonder, squire

>>2806512
Does anyone have a graph or some data on radiation levels in the resident areas around the Nuclear Plant?

> mfw the traces from plutonium are from refueling and not the accident

>>2806976
So.. they refuelled the plant in a village 25 miles away?

curiouser and curiouser

from the newscientist article:
"An analysis of MEXT's data by New Scientist shows just how elevated the levels are. After the 1986 Chernobyl accident, the most highly contaminated areas were defined as those with over 1490 kilobecquerels (kBq) of caesium per square metre. Produce from soil with 550 kBq/m2 was destroyed.

People living within 30 kilometres of the plant have evacuated or been advised to stay indoors. Since 18 March, MEXT has repeatedly found caesium levels above 550 kBq/m2 in an area some 45 kilometres wide lying 30 to 50 kilometres north-west of the plant. The highest was 6400 kBq/m2, about 35 kilometres away, while caesium reached 1816 kBq/m2 in Nihonmatsu City and 1752 kBq/m2 in the town of Kawamata, where iodine-131 levels of up to 12,560 kBq/m2 have also been measured. "Some of the numbers are really high," says Gerhard Proehl, head of assessment and management of environmental releases of radiation at the International Atomic Energy Agency."

The highest recorded from Chernobyl (the most contaminated area):
> 1490 kBq per square meter.

The highest recorded from Fukushima,
Iodine: 12,560 kBq per square meter.
Caesium: 6400 kBq per square meter.

And this shit is still leaking hardcore, it's not contained yet and isn't expected to be for a while.

>>2806615
How is:
http://www.iaea.org/

A bad source for this information? You don't like the findings so they must be false? LOL?

>>2806969

>>2806969
http://www.rdtn.org/
no graphs there yet but they are planning it

>>2806991
Do you have one that's not half a month old dumbass?

>>2806986
>implying those are harmful levels

sheeet nigga, if the hype behind radiation was true, we'd all die instantly from eating a banana

>mfw radiation in doses as low as this are actually beneficial to human helath and may increase my lifespan

>>2806995
No, I found it on Wikipedia.

No need to be rude.

>>2806999
Yeah like when you go to get a chest x-ray, the doctor doesn't put a fucking led blanket over you to limit exposure.

Next time you get an x-ray you should request to not have the lead blanket to improve your health!

>>2806986
> implying that doesn't mean they were shit at measuring in chernobyl

>>2807002
> he believes instant radiation dose has the same health effects as background radiation
linear no-threshold much?

>>2807003
Oh so now when the international atomic energy agency says shit's higher than Chernobyl, we just keep inventing new excuses for how it's not.

I'll take the International Atomic Energy people's fucking word on this over yours that we were "shit at measuring." They clearly believe the data has integrity since they are fucking using it.

>>2807006
yeah, no way you are misinterpreting what they are saying

>>2807002
>Lead blanket

nope. I don't know what bumfuck country you're from, but over here in the civilised world that doesn't happen, because we don't use chunks of reactor core to take x-rays like you obviously think they do. I speak from personal experience. The operator stands behind a screen, but thats because they are taking x-rays all day long.

If you don't know what you're talking about, shut up. The sheer amount of ignorance surrounding radiation at the moment is mindblowing

>>2807005
> He believes that ANYONE thinks the real threat is acute radiation poisoning when that's obviously not what the threat is.

No matter how you try to spin this people did die because of the long term effects of Chernobyl's fallout. There is more fallout from Fukushima than from Chernobyl according to IEA.

>>2807012
I've taken x-rays several times in the military and private sector, and they always had me wear a lead blanket to cover up the area they weren't specifically going to x-ray unless it was dental.

You've obviously never broken a fucking bone.

pic related this is what they look like, maybe you were just too stupid to understand what the blanket was lol!

>>2807015
You know x-rays are focused, right? You seem to have it your tiny army grunt pea brain that an x-ray consists of a man in an iron man suit blasting you with a hosepipe of glowing green sludge all over your entire body.

>>2807013
all people who died because of chernobyl's fallout were people who died because corrupted russians chose to let kids eat food with ridiculously high iodine levels. to date no one else but those kids has got cancer because of chernobyl, THERE IS NO STOCHASTIC EFFECT EITHER. there are still plenty of liquidators alive some of whom are expected to get cancer, although plenty of vodka might spare them from that.

>>2807029
does vodka actually do anything against radiation?

Because that would be cool

You are all fully aware that the "contamination" of the oceans amounts to about 60 Bq/l, aka how the same radioactivity the average human carries.
I won't take years to be safe again, it's safe right this fucking moment

People seem to have got it into their heads that the evacuation zone is a scorched uninhabitable wasteland.
The only place where you couldn't just walk around in jeans and t shirt is inside the reactor building.

The only thing I find to be troubling about this incident is what impact can disinformation or lack of information have.

>>2807079

^this x 1000

combined with the natural stupidity of people, usually brought on by arrogance (I have a PHD I can't be wrong) and the end result is faggotry, and half of Honshu uninhabitable.

yay!