/sci/ - Science & Math

lolwut

Imagine if there was no religion, no morals, no holy books etc. You could literally do anything you want. You could have sex with a horse or a sheep or a 5-year old child because there's no consequences at all and no concept of right from wrong. You could kill your neighbor and do his wife, because hey, we're all just unthinking, unfeeling molecules without a soul and emotions are just meaningless chemical reactions.

Indeed we'd still be living in caves and never progress beyond stone tools because we'd all be too busy raping and beating each other up to be able to invent the wheel. Not to mention anything of modern science.

>>2758664

You relgios are animals if your book is the only thing holding you back.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agexr88YHFE

>>2758664
>implying the holy books and most civilizations didn't approve of these things

>>2758664
Living in caves? Man, I don't want that. If that's contradictory with fighting everyone all the time, then I will choose not to fight all the time! In fact, I already don't want to my ancestors were mostly those people who were able to work as part of a team and fit in with society rather than going around destroying everything, oddly enough.

>>2758734

Really? Here's a couple from the bad, evil, violent Mosaic Law. Please explain what, if anything, is wrong with these passages.

Leviticus 19:10-18

“‘When you reap the harvest of your land, do not reap to the very edges of your field or gather the gleanings of your harvest. Do not go over your vineyard a second time or pick up the grapes that have fallen. Leave them for the poor and the foreigner. I am the LORD your God.

“‘Do not steal.

“‘Do not lie.

“‘Do not deceive one another.

“‘Do not swear falsely by my name and so profane the name of your God. I am the LORD.

“‘Do not defraud or rob your neighbor.

“‘Do not hold back the wages of a hired worker overnight.

“‘Do not curse the deaf or put a stumbling block in front of the blind, but fear your God. I am the LORD.

“‘Do not pervert justice; do not show partiality to the poor or favoritism to the great, but judge your neighbor fairly.

“‘Do not go about spreading slander among your people.

“‘Do not do anything that endangers your neighbor’s life. I am the LORD.

“‘Do not hate a fellow Israelite in your heart. Rebuke your neighbor frankly so you will not share in their guilt.

“‘Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against anyone among your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD.

>>2758740

Exactly. Those people who had low moral standards ended up removing themselves from the gene pool. Because morals are absolute and not relative as some would have us believe.

>>2758643

>>2758743
"Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told." (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)


sounds like a real bro that godguy.
the greeks fucked boys and animals and they still had amazing literature. The canaanite sacrificed children to bullgods same as the egyptians and the mayans and they still build amazing architecture and complex belief systems thats just the way humanity is a buncha animals with slightly higher cognitive abilities..

Numbers XXXI 6-18
So there were delivered out of the thousands of Israel, a thousand of every tribe, twelve thousand armed for war. And Moses sent them to the war, a thousand of every tribe, them and Phinehas the son of Eleazar the priest, to the war, with the holy instruments, and the trumpets to blow in his hand. And they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD commanded Moses; and they slew all the males...And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones...And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, with the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, which came from the battle. And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD. Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

Well, it does say you can't rape widows. You can rape the virgin girls though, which is good.

On the other hand, the bible does explicitely condone husbands raping their wives in 1 Corinthians VII 3-5

Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband. The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife. Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency.

That is, if either the husband or wife wants sex the other has to give it to them, no matter how they feel about it. So if a man rapes his wife it's no worse than calling in a debt collector for someone who owes you money.

>>2758743

And these. BTW, /x is in trouble here.

26 “‘Do not eat any meat with the blood still in it.

“‘Do not practice divination or seek omens.

27 “‘Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard.

28 “‘Do not cut your bodies for the dead or put tattoo marks on yourselves. I am the LORD.

29 “‘Do not degrade your daughter by making her a prostitute, or the land will turn to prostitution and be filled with wickedness.

30 “‘Observe my Sabbaths and have reverence for my sanctuary. I am the LORD.

31 “‘Do not turn to mediums or seek out spiritists, for you will be defiled by them. I am the LORD your God.

32 “‘Stand up in the presence of the aged, show respect for the elderly and revere your God. I am the LORD.

33 “‘When a foreigner resides among you in your land, do not mistreat them. 34 The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

35 “‘Do not use dishonest standards when measuring length, weight or quantity. 36 Use honest scales and honest weights, an honest ephah[d] and an honest hin.[e] I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt.

37 “‘Keep all my decrees and all my laws and follow them. I am the LORD.’”

>>2758752
So for ducks, rape is an absolute good, while for some beetles stabbing a female and fucking the hole is objectively moral? Seriously, you're over romanticising nature and evolution.

>>2758767

I think some of the Mosaic Law were likely tribal customs (the thing about raping virgins has a very Middle-Eastern flavor to it) Certain parts (like not rounding the corners of one's beard) were prohibited because they were part of pagan rituals that the Israelites were to avoid.

>>2758782

Man != animals. That aside, the latter mate only to reproduce (except for dolphins, who do have sex for pleasure)

>click /sci/ out of curiosity, never browse before
>see this thread
>mfw

>>2758796
What do you think we are? A particularly clever fungus? An Archaean colony that's figured out how to wear pants?

I WONDER IF THIS IS A TROLL THREAD

>>2758781

>“‘Do not eat any meat with the blood still in it.

Duh. There's such a thing as hookworms and tapeworms and nematodes and protozoa and...

>“‘Do not practice divination or seek omens.

Sorry, /x. Even God hates you.

>Do not cut your bodies for the dead or put tattoo marks on yourselves

That would condemn most of /soc...

>Do not degrade your daughter by making her a prostitute, or the land will turn to prostitution and be filled with wickedness.

Nope, sorry Hollywood.

>Do not turn to mediums or seek out spiritists, for you will be defiled by them.

Again, beware /x

>Stand up in the presence of the aged, show respect for the elderly

ie. Help old ladies cross the street or else

>When a foreigner resides among you in your land, do not mistreat them.

But what happens when you invite foreigners (aka ragheads) into your country and they don't reciprocate your kindness?

>Do not use dishonest standards when measuring length, weight or quantity.

Ok, I don't work at Subway, so that doesn't apply to me.

>>2758806

From what atheists tell me, pretty much yeah.

▲▼▲▼▲▼▲▼▲▼

>>2758816
Atheist chiming in.
I am a monkey and proud of it.

>>2758820
Same. My morality is my own choice to make this world less shitty and that's why I am superior to religionfags that are moral only because of restrictions. I do good deeds and expect nothing, they act good to get praised and avoid being punished - it's still primitive and egoistic.
We are mortal bunch soulless atoms, still even If it's only an illusion of brain structure, we suffer, we cry, we laugh, we live our lives as good as we can, when you will understand it, there won't be any religious book needed to awake compassion and good will in you.
/thread

>>2758841

Actually the Bible is supposed to be a set of general moral guidelines, not absolute commands (which would go against free will)

>>2758841
Christians status:
[ ] not told
[x] told

>>2758841

That would pretty much make you a Buddhist of sorts.

>>2758845
>the Bible is supposed to be
says who

>>2758854

I have heard different Christians argue that. How the common atheist strawman of God being an evil celestial dictator is false because you would not have free will there.

>>2758845
Doesn't change the fact that acting like it says is going after personal profit and fear of punishment. That's why religious people can't understand how can you respect other human being without God restricting you.
Basic is to see another human being in the person before you and know that he feels and thinks just as you.
Fighting for ideals in the world where crime is not always punished and justice not always served, good hardly ever wins, is more brave than living in religious Illusion that makes world less tragic and life more comfortable. It's matter of courage.

>>2758864

I don't harm people because I have a conscience and feel guilty if I do. It really hasn't got a lot to do with reward or punishment, the exact nature of which is unknowable in this life.

>>2758855
Buddhism also uses prise/punish system by good/bad reincarnation and promise of nirvana.
I believe nothing justifies acting good, It's irrational in every aspect, still you can choose to act irrational and rebel against the laws of this cruel world.

>>2758878

But Nirvana is also not like the Christian heaven, inasmuch as Eastern religions don't have the same concept of a soul that western ones do.

BTW, Buddhism doesn't teach that God will reward/punish you at the end either, rather that the impersonal forces of the universe determine your fate.

>>2758796
Also, several primates and it's being speculated that even pigs, too,

>>2758884
buddhism teaches that there is no God actually, and no Creator

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_in_Buddhism

OP here. I decided that this thread went on long enough and I tried to delete it, but I got a message "You delete threads too often"

Little 4chan help, anyone?

>>2758897

Right. Buddhism just states that the existence of God(s) is unknowable by man.

they don't "know" what we do

>>2758898
Delete yourself instead.

>>2758913

Can I actually get a real answer instead of trolling?

>>2758910

Who knows what?

>>2758926
You don't know.

>>2758937
>>2758926
>>2758910
Isn't that a hendrix song ?

>>2758943
Hurr.

>>2758845
General moral guidelines that if you don't follow your family will be slaughtered everything you love destroyed and you will be thrown into a fire.

>>2758961

See >>2758871

what annoys me is faggots like nietzche who say "durr morals are made up, therefore shouldn't exist" faililng to realize the great utility of morals in society. it would be like the fucking jungle. the most sadistic people would have all the money and women, leading to selective pressures for sociopathic traits, making all humans evil. that's not good, nietzchfag.

FACT #1: There are behaviors, intentions, cultural practices, etc. which potentially lead to the worst possible misery for everyone. There are also behaviors, intentions, cultural practices, etc. which do not, and which, in fact, lead to states of wellbeing for many sentient creatures, to the degree that wellbeing is possible in this universe.

FACT #2: While it may often be difficult in practice, distinguishing between these two sets is possible in principle.

FACT #3: Our “values” are ways of thinking about this domain of possibilities. If we value liberty, privacy, benevolence, dignity, freedom of expression, honesty, good manners, the right to own property, etc.—we value these things only in so far as we judge them to be part of the second set of factors conducive to (someone’s) wellbeing.

FACT #4: Values, therefore, are (explicit or implicit) judgments about how the universe works and are themselves facts about our universe (i.e. states of the human brain). (Religious values, focusing on God’s will or the law of karma, are no exception: the reason to respect God’s will or the law of karma is to avoid the worst possible misery for many, most, or even all sentient beings).

FACT #5: It is possible to be confused or mistaken about how the universe works. It is, therefore, possible to have the wrong values (i.e. values which lead toward, rather than away from, the worst possible misery for everyone).

FACT #6: Given that the wellbeing of humans and animals must depend on states of the world and on states of their brains, and science represents our most systematic means of understanding these states, science can potentially help us avoid the worst possible misery for everyone.

FACT #7: In so far as our subsidiary values can be in conflict—e.g. individual rights vs. collective security; the right to privacy vs. freedom of expression—it may be possible to decide which priorities will most fully avoid the worst possible misery for many, most, or even all sentient beings. Science, therefore, can in principle (if not always in practice) determine and prioritize our subsidiary values (e.g. should we value “honor”? If so, when and how much?).

FACT #8: One cannot reasonably ask, “But why is the worst possible misery for everyone bad?”—for if the worst possible misery for everyone isn’t bad, the word “bad” has no meaning. (This would be like asking, “But why is a perfect circle round?” The question can be posed, but it expresses only confusion, not an intelligible basis for skeptical doubt.) Likewise, one cannot ask, “But why ought we avoid the worst possible misery for everyone?”—for if the term “ought” has any application at all, it is in urging us away from the worst possible misery for everyone.

FACT #9: One can, therefore, derive “ought” from “is”: for if there is a behavior, intention, cultural practice, etc. that seems likely to produce the worst possible misery for everyone, one ought not adopt it. (All lesser ethical concerns and obligations follow from this).

Saged and reported. Religion posts go on /b and /x, not /sci (and by religion I also mean atheism)