/sci/ - Science & Math

You don't need to try to fight his beliefs.
Just don't show up to his classes.
Argue with the school director if you need and if you have to avoid getting expelled or something go to the head of education in whatever administrative region you have.

Look, evolution is true ON THE MOLECULAR LEVEL.

The idea that people's minds will change because of organism morphologies is moot.

Tell your teacher he is wrong, because he is wrong.

>>2755685
>>2755685
>>2755685
We're not arguing. We're debating, it doesn't get heated and its always a friendly discussion.

>>2755670
>inb4 underageb&

Move to Canada.

>>2755709
>>2755709
>>2755709
This isn't /b/...

explain to them that without evolution, new flu shots would not be needed each year, as the flu birus makeup would remain static and so you could continue using the same flu shot each time.
explain to them that various breeds of modern day canine are selectively bred, some forms have only existed for a few decades and are unlike any other canine that has existed before, ergo they were clearly not created by god thousands of years ago, but created by man recently.
explain to him that bananas have been selectively cultivated by humans and are very recent in terms of he biological timescale, and without evolution they could not change form.

explain that 'macro-evolution' is just lots of micro-evolution. it is not possible to believe in one without the other. cumulative effects build up over time.

explain that MRSA has evolved resistance to antibiotics because it is advantageous for hem to do so due to natural selection killing off those that do not evolve. explain that this is impossible without evolution.

thats all i can think of for now.

>>2755714
>>2755714
>>2755714
I've consider moving to England when I older. America will become a crazy theocracy in less than 200 years unless something changes.

>>2755699
You don't have to be the annoying smartass kid you know.
I'm just saying you don't have to argue with an older person even if you know you're right if you're not able to prove them, especially in front of a public totally on their side.
If you think you're missing on something or being taught badly try to avoid the class and to find other ways to teach yourself.

I never understood how one can teach biology and not believe in evolution. Evolution is a core idea to biology. You must be learning absolutely nothing in that class. I'm sorry OP that you will get an insufficient high school education in science.

>>2755670
who cares man. i feel your pain, i went to school like that, but seriously, let them wallow in their ignorance. who cares.

is it a public school? report him to the authorities

>>2755732
this. they're not allowed to do that.

:(
A biology teacher without an understanding of evolution is no scientist and no teacher. OP, make as much noise as you can about the situation and things will chance because the educated will stand beside you and defend science.

>>2755719
>>2755719
>>2755719
I've ran with all of these arguments, at length.
I even tried the lizards that completely changed their diets and stomachs in 30 years. Still nothing.
Can you guy recommend me some good books on Evolution? Not to convince my teacher, but for me, as I think that Evolution is a beautiful and profound theory that I'd really like to learn more about.
I also plan to be an Evolutionary Biologist when I go to college next year, and need to be prepared as I assume that my knowledge here is lacking because we don't cover Evolution at all (in years k-12) in my school.
Kids in my school still ask me 'if we came from *monkeys* then why are there still monkeys" as if it be the best argument ever conceived.
Yes, I know the answer, before you explain it to me :D

>mfw this argument again
>mfw no face

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contextualism

Genesis was written to convey the message that God created the universe and had the intent of human-kind existing in his likeness. however, it (along with almost everything else in the Bible) is not a historical/scientific encyclopedia.

>>2755770
The selfish gene by richard dawkins
stephen jay gould's ever since darwin
gould's has some bullshit in it but whatever. read selfish gene first if you can

>>2755732
>>2755732
>>2755732
I think that I'd like to try and convince him first. This is a last resort as I would feel terrible doing that. >>2755731
>>2755731
>>2755731

I care because students from my school understand nothing about the central theory in Biology. It's not their fault that they were born to batshit crazy parents(I was too :( ).

>>2755791
>>2755791
>>2755791
I have read 'The Selfish Gene' really profound book. My favorite from Dawkins after 'The Ancestor's Tale'

>>2755770
many of the richard dawkins books on evolution are very good. ignore what people say about him being 'millitant' 'bogoted' 'arrogant' etc. they are just haters.
he IS an atheist, but he is very thoughtful, and he IS an evolutionary biologist...

'greatest show on earth' is good, it is perfect for you as it is literally all about 'the evidence for evolution'
'blind watchmaker' is good as well.
and i think some others...but they don't come to mind at the moment.

>>2755784
>>2755784
>>2755784
I'm not trying to be rude, but I really don't care about your opinions on God. This is a scientific argument, not a mystic one. Evolution can be wrong and God not exist. God can exist and Evolution can be true.
I'm an Atheist because I don't see the evidence for an omnipotent God who loves his creation. This seems to me an unmoderated world.
But this thread isn't about Atheism.

I think the main point needed to be brought up is how do you, exactly, apply Creationism empirically. There was an argument between Kent Hovind -- naturally -- and a microbiologist on evolution that's a fun listen.

>>2755806
>>2755806
>>2755806
I've read all of the Dawkins' books on Evolution. They're all very good, but I own them already and need new recommendations.
I've also read:
Darwin's Dangerous Idea
Wh Evolution is True
The Red Queen: Sex and the Evolution of human nature
Your inner fish(my recommendation to all of you, great book).

What your teacher believes isn't rational, so using rationality to change his mind isn't going to work.

Give up on the teacher OP, focus your energy on convincing your classmates. Also, write to some important people about this issue. Possible places to send this letter to include newspapers, city council, state legislators, and maybe even write to Dawkins if you feel froggy.

Here OP, skip to 5:20

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXplBAreEGc&feature=related

Seems like you've covered Dawkins' thoughts in your studies. Start thinking big picture, and give your teacher some arguments formed out of these ideas.

Have you tried showing him a college level biology textbook? It doesn't sound like he has ever seen one.

>>2755795
Damn.
Some people are still militant about stuff.
Why can't you all just be apathetic and play video games or what not? I mean if they wanted to know about it from what they heard from you or tv or whatever, they'll look on the internet for example...

>>2755719

That poster smacks of something from some cracker church in the South. Most Christians don't believe that.

>>2755846
>>2755846
>>2755846
How do I write to Dawkins? I've made some threads on his website about this, but he never responded(I wasn't even expecting a response).
How do I contact him specifically? Dawkins is probably my favorite person in the world, he is so cool, and I learn so much from him.

>>2755871
>>2755871
>>2755871
Missouri.

>>2755872

Dawkins is a hack who won't be remembered for his work in biology, just his attempts to create a new religion based around himself.

>>2755892

Never been to Missouri, so I can't comment.

>>2755871
that is the core belief of christianity.
if evolution is true, then no original sin, and no jesus.
teh entire infrastructure of the belief system falls apart.

i know FOT A FACT that christian dogma is wrong.
and if he ytry to cherry-pick the bible and modify their religion, they are doing it without any objective basis for selection, and there is no possible way they can be finding truth via this method, as it is just their subjective preference and personal opinion.

NCSE: The National Center for Science Education. Start there.

>>2755871
that is the core belief of christianity.
if evolution is true, then no original sin, and no jesus.
the entire infrastructure of the belief system falls apart.

i know FOR A FACT that christian dogma is wrong.
and if they try to cherry-pick the bible and modify their religion, they are doing it without any objective basis for selection, and there is no possible way they can be finding truth via this method, as it is just their subjective preference and personal opinion.

>>2755918

Whatever. The RCC apparently doesn't find evolution incompatible with Christianity.

>>2755896
>>2755896
Okay cool. It doesn't mean that I can't read his books and learn from them. I like Dawkins because he can speak eloquently, and that he has some pretty awesome documentaries. I pretty much ignore all of his videos on religion, although those videos and 'The God Delusion' did make me an Atheist.

Better yet, just appeal to an actual scientist who is pro-evolution and against the prctice of teaching kids useless information. They'd respond if they care

Please, please, please don't make this thread about religion. There are enough of those on /b/.

>>2755896

inb4 shitstorm.

>>2755932
Right here. Do this.

Is there a university in your area? Look for researching molecular biologists/biochemists/microbiologists. They'll be most prepared to intellectually smack down.

>>2755958
>>2755958
>>2755958
Sorry for so many questions, but what would they do? Give me some material to use, or would they do something like come to the school and lecture the class? Like I said, my teacher is civil and would probably allow it.

>>2755918

I've had the same outlook toward religion. It has seemed strange to me that Christianity especially has maintained this much support even after very specific things the bible says are true/should be done have been proven untrue/made illegal due to obvious immorality

>>2755926
orly?
the perhaps someone should show them this pic >>2755719

it all cascades down.
evolution-->so no creation--> so no adam and eve --> so eve never ate the forbidden fruit--> so no original sin-->so no reason for jesus to die to pay for original sin (however that works...and yes, this is the CORE of christianity)

>>2755928
>I pretty much ignore all of his videos on religion, >although those videos and 'The God Delusion' did make me an Atheist.
...i hope you realise how stupid what you just said is...

>>2755721
Good, the sooner the better. We don't want you here.

>>2755721

And England will become a crazy theocracy in 50 years. Your point?

>>2755872
>>2755872
>>2755872

Richard Dawkins

Oxford University
Museum Parks Road
Oxford OX1 3PW
United Kingdom


He isn't a professor there anymore, but I'm sure they have a forwarding address.

>>2755970
>>2755970
>>2755970
What I mean is that they were interesting to me when I was religious, but I'm more interested in Evolution than my lack of religion at this point of my life.

>>2755969
the morality in the bible is a fucking joke
jainism predates christianity and their morality was FAR superior (not perfect...but considering the zeitgeist shift, they were well ahead of their time)

>>2755968
>but what would they do?

Fuck kid, I don't know. They're people. They MIGHT care, then they can do their thing. Their thing being educating. They might be pretty fucking good at it, likely better than you.

Your school needs learnin.

>>2755968
That guy is giving you fantasy ideas. Reality is that no one wants to be bothered with this shit.

You already said what you had to say, there's nothing more to do at this point. Humor teachers, get A's and go about your business.

Jesus, it's always "ME! ME! ME!" today.

>>2755980
ok fair enough, but you shouldnt say you 'ignore them' if they clearly made a very drastic change to your life (and a change for teh better, well done. seriously. :) )

>>2755926
Pic oh-so reated.

>>2755982

I actually have a good bit of "respect" for those Indian religions like jainism and buddhism. I still have an issue with their believing in a diety, but somehow they seem like less douchebag religions than christianity, you know?

>>2756015
indeed
although it was my understanding that buddism has no deity, and is more a 'way of life' than a religion, and probably should not even be grouped with religions at all.

>>2755978
>EUROPE, YOU WILL PAY
>FANTASTIC 4 ARE ON THEIR WAY!!!

Hah, what?

>>2755986
>>2755670

Kid, call the authorities. What the teacher is doing is actually illegal and is part of a very vicious cycle.

>>2755969

>It has seemed strange to me that Christianity especially has maintained this much support even after very specific things the bible says are true/should be done have been proven untrue/made illegal due to obvious immorality

God doesn't change, but people's perception of him does.

>>2755986
>>2755986
>>2755986
I don't really understand your point, and I have A's in all of my classes.
If I do nothing, children in my area will be indoctrinated into iron age myths and not solid empirical science.
How is that "ME, ME, ME?" If I were selfish in this goal, I wouldn't waste so much of my time on this.

Evolution; the THEORY (that's right, not a FACT) that life randomly appeared from rocks billions of years ago and that modern man came from monkeys.

>>2756024

The Dalai Lama has said that one cannot be a Buddhist and believe in a Supreme Being, but he nonetheless considers it a religion.

>>2756024

From what I can recall, you may be right. All the more reason for me to be more comfortable with it

>>2756036
evolution is a theory (a gauss)

>>2756025
methinks it is probably a sh00p (or that guy has A LOT of balls)

often people crash rallies and protests.
i have an image somewhere of a feminist rally (INB4 EK haters latch on to this...) where someone snook in with a sign saying "iron my shirt, bitch!"

..quite lulzy.

...

cant find it.
have this instead.

>>2756026
It's fucking criminal is what it is.

I HATE that I can't talk to my parents about what I do because they were so well indoctrinated in science denialism by education majors like your fucking "teacher"

>>2756015

Prolly because nobody has killed in the name of Eastern religions.

>>2756036

Shitty troll is shitty. Have you even attended middle school, or did you just miss the day where it was explained that science can only theorize, there is no way to give a definite explanation. It just so happens that often enough the right answer is not too complicated.

>>>>2756015
Jainism has no deity. Well, no real god anyways. Well actually... its kinda complicated.

Basically, Jainism's purpose is to act along the guidelines set by an ascended being. The current sects base of the teachings of the Ascended mahavir(a). The basic concept is that your soul cycles through life and death and is reborn at varying levels. For Jains (Jainists? I dunno), the cycle of Life and Death is a constant system of pain and happiness, where your deeds determine where you....

Is there a religion board yet?

Whatever- they have no Creationist God... or myth for that matter.

>>2756024

It's interesting to note that communist regimes in Asia persecuted Buddhism relentlessly. They either didn't know or care if it was an atheistic religion, just that it was a relic of feudalism that had to be destroyed.

>>2756030
First of all, you're 16. Going to a university where people are too busy with their own shit isn't going to be doing you any favors. You'll be seen as a cunt and nothing more.

It's "ME! ME! ME!" because you can't shut the fuck up about it.

>>2756078

Communists have an issue with religion not because of the presence of a deity, but because it fosters social tensions and sub-grouping within a society meant to exist in a socially homogenous fashion.

>>2756005

>mfw my religion accepted Darwinian theory shortly after it's publication and continues to promote scientific progress

Don't lump all of christianity in with idiots, please.

Evolution already has enough proof.
Niggers, for example, are the missing link between apes and americans.

>>2756103
Dude, where do you draw the "god must have done this, and Jesus is really real" conclusion if you're following modern science?

Just...because?

>>2756096

Some sects of Buddhism have supernatural elements such as the belief that Gautama was a divine being. Communists in China, Vietnam, and Cambodia just considered it another form of outdated superstition.

That aside, religions like Christianity were often persecuted more heavily (especially in China) because they were viewed as symbols of foreigners, as opposed to "indigenous" faiths like Buddhism and Taoism.

with the right definitions, evolution becomes an intrinsic property of life itself.

have a look at this:
http://www.youtube.com/user/C0nc0rdance#p/search/24/4B9IVl8IsEg

where's your precious theory now?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZFG5PKw504

>>2756118

It is rather hard to draw the line. Like if a child killer dies of cancer (which happened in a certain RL case I could mention), is it God's judgement or just a coincidence? And does that mean everyone who gets cancer is being punished for something? You don't know.

>>2756103
if you are a christian then would you care to explain how your belief fits in with the points i have made ITT, or can you refute my points?

..or are you just going to ignore it all together and save you the trouble of having to think?

>>2755719 (see the picture)
>>2755918
>>2755970

>>2755918

>if evolution is true, then no original sin, and no jesus

I have had Christians tell me that man may have been given a soul at some point along the evolutionary chain, but when it happened is anyone's guess.

>>2756188
this is not in the bible, so they cant even claim divine origin on this statement (and THAT still would need backing up anyway)
therefore clearly they have made it up, and guessed.
as i have stated previously, this is no way to find truth.
guessing will get you nowhere, this is why we use SCIENCE so that we can improve our knowledge in a meaningful way.

>>2756195

Not a problem if you believe the Creation account was metaphorical/symbolic.

>>2756161
Yes I do, because I understand how cancer works, and that some of the photons that carry the energy that damages the DNA have traveled millions of light years!

Where does human morality or judgment and a will of a god play in to this? Philosophical nonsense

>>2756209
Then the bible needs to be in the children's fiction book section of the library, along with other books on how to beat your slave when he misbehaves and how not to commit adultery.

>>2756209
they need to do that to account for evolution (if they accept it is true, which they must unless they are ignorant of the subject matter)
getting past that hurdle, the rest of christianity also breaks down because there is no original sin, no jesus, no resurrection.

>>2756209

I have heard other suggestions that the story of Adam and Eve was written during the Babylonian exile as a metaphor for the Israelites' having rejected God and been cast out of their homeland.

If that's true, it would imply that the Israelites either didn't have a creation myth pre-exile or they had one that's been lost.

Pic very related.

>>2756148

Do not let him confuse spontaneous eruption of life with evolution, as creationists often does. Also, make sure he's not thinking of evolution as the evolution in pokemon, it's not the same.

the theory of evolution is valid regardless of whether man was created in his present form or not. if you need a case study, have a look at some of AronRa's videos. He's a pro. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91UAzMNUDLU

>>2756238

Not at all. If you suppose that God arbitrarily gave Neanderthals or modern man a soul at some point, it's not a stretch to assume that they eventually started committing sins.

It might be noted that even the Neanderthals appear to have buried their dead and paid them respect, which has a religious element to it.

>I taken a mission to persuade the class, including the teacher that Evolution is solid science. Sounds pretty easy, right?
>pretty easy
I simply cannot fathom why anyone would think so.
The sooner the cult has a person, the harder it is to deprogram them.
indoctrinated from early childhood == damn near fucking impossible without extreme methods

>>2756273
>If you suppose
but yet again this isnt in the bible, it isnt backed up by christian doctrine, and you have no evidence.
you would also need to prove the concepts of 'sin' and 'soul' for anyone to even begin taking that belief seriously.

>>2756289

FWIW the RCC accepts evolution. I'm not sure what their exact ideas are on how man came to have a soul, but evidently they don't find it incompatible with the Bible or Christian doctrine.

Use the arguments of Darwin. The Origin of Species, and also The Descent of Man. I'm serious... it's fucking amazing how much stuff he got right with how little information he had. He's also really good at explaining it, laying out reams of evidence in a simple and logical fashion, because in those days, EVERYONE was a creationist.

Nowadays, of course, we know about genes and DNA and mitochondria....

Or, you could bring up Richard Lenski's experiment in which speciation was observed directly, in a controlled lab setting. It's even reproducible!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._coli_long-term_evolution_experiment
In fact, your teacher could write Lenski and get some of his bacteria, and you could observe evolution in action as a class project.

The fact is that evolution has been observed directly so many times that it's not even worth publishing when you do see it. All that's left to debate are the mechanisms by which is occurs.

>>2756314
well obviously, or the religion would not still exist.

>>2756327

Totally. And dinosaurs aren't actually extinct, contrary to popular belief.

>>2756314

Yes, but the RCC does not consider the bible to be a primary source. Official doctrine is that it's a book written by men about god.

They are open and honest that the primary sources are the conclusions of the pope on any matter of doctrine or faith. If there is criticism to be given, it is that they have nothing to back this claim up.

>>2756352

>Yes, but the RCC does not consider the bible to be a primary source. Official doctrine is that it's a book written by men about god.

Which IMO is a much more enlightened view than the Jerry Falwell school of Christianity.

>>2756365

Seriously. When you consider the great scholarly tradition of St. Augustine, St. Thomas of Aquinas, and others, the Christianity preached by guys like Graham, Falwell, and Robertson is very shallow and un-intellectual.