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/sci/ - Science & Math

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2669545 No.2669545 [Reply] [Original]

Hey there /sci/. Today we're going to use simple logic to prove that God is either a) Evil or b) nonexistent

For this argument we must assume that god is both all powerful (omnipotent - this also rules out Satan as a source of evil) and all knowing (omniscient).

The argument goes as thus:
"Is god willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent (evil).
Is he both able, and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him god?"

Apologists often counter this argument by claiming evil exists because God decided to give man free will.

However, with thought its obvious this doesntcome close to countering the argument, because it makes the incorrect assumption that every act that could be considered 'evil' ("something that is immoral, causes pain or harm, is offensive, or threatening.") is caused by a human decision.

An example of a decisionless evil is that of a child dying slowly and painfully of a random disease. There is immense suffering and pain, and few would claim it is anything but 'evil' for it to happen (/b/ for example would call it 'funny', or possibly 'porn').

Taking away the human factor allows the complete removal of the free will problem, an animal burning slowly to death in a fire is something most would call evil.

In a perfect world ruled by a perfectly good god, both of these acts would not happen. At all times god has the option of healing the child or rescuing the animal. Or at least giving them both a painless quick death if thats preferable. Yet he does not, and this has nothing to do with free will.

He should have the capability to prevent these evils. He should have the knowledge of them. He should wish to prevent them. Yet these things clearly happen. Thus God is either nonexistent, as he has no prevented them. Or he is evil, and simply does not care to prevent them.

Thoughts /sci/?

>> No.2669554

Incidentally, this argument was first thought up by greek thinker Epicurus.

>> No.2669580

I prefer Hume's argument against creation myself OP.

Do you believe in Cause and Effect?
*The theist replies in the affirmative*
Do you believe that God was self-created or has and always will exist?
*Again, the answer is yes*
Congrats! You've just won a prize! What is it? An inconsistent philosophy!

>> No.2669585

You're not new to this idea. I'm sure everyone here has seen this quote before. Secondly, you can't apply logic to religion. Being that religion is entirely made up, anyone can argue anything and you can't get around it. Here I'll pretend to do it right now.

God allows evil to test our mortal beings and see if we are worthy to get into heaven. To even question why God allows evil is to question God himself. He is all knowing and so obviously he has a plan by allowing evil, otherwise he would get rid of it. God always works for the greater good. You do not have the mental aptitude to understand God's plan nor the right to question it.

You see what I did there, I played it off as if God meant to do it and condemned you for saying something that seems logical. Religious nuts can always play inconsistencies off as thats what god wants and you have no right to question it.

>> No.2669601
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2669601

>> No.2669608

>>2669601

Here is a few more:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_evil#Answers_and_theodicies

Feel free to use this as a diving board to find topics and then look for elaboration on the material on a more credible website.

>> No.2669625

This is all stupid anyway considering "evil" is a human invention and almost completely arbitrary. You may think it is evil if an animal burns to death but God sure doesn't. In the bible he actually likes it when people burn animals for him. So to even question why God allows evil is a stupid idea to start with. Evil is not some concrete thing. It's just things you think are wrong. And who's to say thats what "evil" really is anyway. This all just gets into pointless philosophical debates about stupid shit. There is no point in applying logic to religion.

>> No.2669642

>>2669625

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy_of_religion

Crap, and to think I almost believed that some weird people almost had something to say about this.

Man they must have been stupid.

>> No.2669651

>>2669642
Yeah, what am I supposed to do with that wiki page? Philosophy is a stupid subject anyway. It gets you no where and you can't even get a job in it. It's even more useless than an art major.

>> No.2669831

>>2669585
> You do not have the mental aptitude to understand God's plan nor the right to question it.

I despise this argument as what it is - bull. I basically just say humans have the capacity to understand anything we set our minds to. God's "plan" cannot be more complex than the physical universe and we're slowly but surely working that out. Eventually we will understand it completely. Saying we cannot just smacks of complacency.

"If you do not reach for the sky,
There is no reason not to die."

>> No.2669866

>>2669601
Somebody said he's right, so he must be.

>> No.2669870

>>2669831
>God's "plan" cannot be more complex than...
>cannot

Are you now imposing limitations on an omnipotent God?

>> No.2669876

>>2669601

Genesis 17:1 "And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the Lord appeared to Abram, and said unto him, 'I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect'."

The Bible does assume God is almighty.

>> No.2669879
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2669879

>>2669870

>implying god is real and actually has omniscience/omnipotence

>> No.2669881

>>2669876
Or a scam artist :)

>> No.2669883

God does not work on the same order of logic such as Math and Science and hence there will not be a way to logically explain God as God in itself is beyond the justifications of Math and Science.

>> No.2669884

>>2669883

herp

>> No.2669888

>>2669884
Well, I tried.
The Lord is beyond my comprehension.

>> No.2669889

>>2669883

derp

>> No.2669895

tl;dr

but if there's a god behind the Universe then he's too big to care at our level

>> No.2669898

>>2669879
So what? God isn't real, which proves that God isn't real?

There's no point in arguing if we can't agree on the axioms.

>> No.2669928

>>2669898
Anonymous makes an excellent point! If God is real, this discussion is pointless since you are all going to Hell.

>> No.2669937
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2669937

>>2669545

From what I recall from Catholic Cathechesis when in school, for something to be evil there must be an intention to do what is contrary to good. If that condition is not met, then it can be deemed "terrible" or "tragic", but it is not evil.

As horrible as seeing a kid die from leprosy, it is a neutral event in Catholic terms, not an evil one. Now, a man who intentionally exposes the kid to leprosy knowing the potential results, that would be evil.

Though not a Catholic myself anymore, I still use the concept of "The Double Effect" and "The Lesser Evil" to judge things when rationalizing would lead to undesired situations: The mean does not justify the end, and when in front of two undersirable options, pick the one which causes the less damage.

>> No.2669983
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2669983

>>2669928

send me to the pits of fire!

If any of you are worth your weight - you would know Fire needs certain conditions for it to thrive. If there's oxygen + combustible material + enough temperature to excite the material into fire than there is likely enough other materials for me to make a television and watch HBO or surf the web after I develop circuits. But shit... I'll be there for eternity! I'll coast and get all that shit made in half the time.

>> No.2669998

>An example of a decisionless evil is that of a child dying slowly and painfully of a random disease. There is immense suffering and pain, and few would claim it is anything but 'evil' for it to happen (/b/ for example would call it 'funny', or possibly 'porn').
>/b/ for example would call it 'funny', or possibly 'porn').
I lol'd .Excellent one
but sage

>> No.2670012

>God decided to give man free will.

Ruh-roh

>> No.2670029

But what if God is an 4th Dimensional Beain that cannot be clearly observed?

>> No.2670166

Earthquakes in LA are caused by all the sin in Las Vegas.

This is what religifags actually believe.

>> No.2670181
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2670181

>>2670166

what??? can you prove that?

>> No.2670201

>>2670181

not all of them, just the extreme christians

it's lulzy anyway

>> No.2670265

Is everyone on this thread 15, grow up kids