/sci/ - Science & Math

Ask him why sentience is so important, and ask him to define it.

He's a faggot because he's questioning you and a standard practice of society that you enjoy indulging in.

Vegetarian here. He's right, you're wrong.

>>2661068
Why is eating meat so important?

>>2661119
It's delicious, and therefore is important to my mental and physical welbeing.

>cow, pig, chicken

>sentient

There is no use in trying to counter an emotional argument with a logical one.

Humans have evolved to eat and digest meat. Are tigers evil?

>>2661133
Sentient
1. the state or quality of being sentient; awareness
2. sense perception not involving intelligence or mental perception; feeling

>implying animals can't feel

Full retard.

Eating meat is good for you, but nowadays we eat too much of it. Smaller quantities is better.

Ethical? good question. I dunno. you can show me as many pictures and slide shows as you want, but it is too delicious to give up. As for sentiant being, s/he is off by a bit with that definition.

BTW good on you vegitarians for being as such, but meat tastes sooo goooood.

I'd prefer to base an ethical argument against meat on its environmental impact...

"sentience" is too vague and leads to bizarre conclusions. Should we stop wild animals from killing each other?

>>2661149

>meat eater not hating vegetarians for being vegetarian

It's a shame how rare of an occurrence this seems to be.

>>2661141
And just to add: There is no logical argument to support both views, both are emotional.

>>2661162

No shut up stop compromise with the evil vegetarians and vegans they want to destroy our way of life!

>>2661158
Yes, every day I see baying mobs of meateaters who've discovered a vegetarian hiding in their community, with pitchforks and torches taking them to the old hanging tree...

Drop the persecution complex, it doesn't help your case.

>What do you think about eating meat?
It tastes good.

>In your opinion, is it good/bad for your health?
Meat is a source of protein which is beneficial. Too much of anything can be bad though.

>Is it ethically correct/incorrect?
Ethically, I have a problem with eating corporate, mass produced meat. However I perceive eating meat from a more pastoral/organic farm as more ethical since the animals live a fairly good life.

Just listen and go "Wow, good points," and "Yeah, that's true" as appropriate, and then go back to eating your burger. Keep eating without disagreeing with anything he says.

Alternatively, do what I do to the PIRG faggots on my campus and just make up absolutely insane counterarguments until he leaves you alone.

I don't know if it's more healthy. I don't think it's necessarily unethical to be an omnivore, and most people won't be convinced by that idea. I'm vegetarian but it's because of the environmental consequences and the higher energy burden of eating meat. I don't much like meat so it's a pretty easy commitment. It would be helpful if people just ate less meat from more sustainable sources.

Well, as far as I know, chickens, cows and pigs have complex nervous systems, meaning they feel pain just as we do. I don't think it's very ethical to systematically torture, kill and eat them.

Good/bad for health? Beef is on the fence. Chicken/Fish? Good.

Ethically correct to eat? No.

Morally correct to eat? Yes.

>>2661198
They'd do the same to us. It's a doggy dog world.

We are apex predator for a reason. Is lion eating a gazelle also unethical? No, it needs to live.

Also, next time you get some vegetarian coming at you, open your mouth and point at your canines. They are there FOR A REASON.

>>2661172
You must live in a shitty community

>>2661206

Opening packages of potato chips.

>>2661201
I don't really see how it's wrong to eat meat ethically, you kill thousands, perhaps millions of organisms a day just being alive, the only difference between them and the animals you eat is the wishy-washy term "sentience", which you can twist to mean all kinds of things.

>>2661218

Also that.

>>2661220

Don't forget the people in Darkskinthuania being exploited and killed so we can have our PS3s.

>>2661206
What makes you think your lame excuses will convince a vegan he's wrong, when the hundreds of times he heard them before did not ?

Lions needs it to live, as you point out. We don't.

>>2661206
I don't think vegetarians will disagree with you in the sense that we're omnivores. We are. But do we need to continue doing so? I believe we're way past that. Besides there are some very valid reasons to stop eating meat, mainly the environmental effect, and the fact that the food we use to feed cattle and the like could be used for other purposes like, I don't know, ending world hunger?

>>2661241
Our eyes are in front, like predators. We are designed to eat meat. Problem, veganfag?

>>2661241
>Besides there are some very valid reasons to stop eating meat, mainly the environmental effect, and the fact that the food we use to feed cattle and the like could be used for other purposes like, I don't know, ending world hunger?

1. Bitching about the environment to a meat-eater in the context of meat-eating just makes you a hippie, and nobody takes them seriously.

2. There's already enough food produced in the world to feed everyone in it. World hunger is a political problem, not a supply problem.

yeah eating meat is good and good for you.

I see so many Indians ( hindu's? ) that have been vegetarians for life and they are so lithe and lightweight, and I correlate that so closely with their diet. I understand that it is possible to get all the proteins you need from a carefully monitored vegetarian diet, but these folks to me seem to indicate a little meat is practically necessary.

I'm 6'1" and very muscular >200 lb and can do hard manual labor all day long without trouble, and I do attribute that to a good diet including meat as much as good genes.

if its wrong for us to eat sentient creatures, why do they eat each other?

>>2661220
So cows don't have developped nervous systems, because bees don't ?
Why are you on /sci/ ?

>>2661254
>Implying being lightweight is bad

>>2661264
So a nervous system is where you choose to draw the line.

So, find me something without any senses that's worth eating.

>>2661241

There was a thread earlier today about the most energy-to-food-efficient animals. It's common knowledge that cows are horribly inefficient-- what is it, like 40 lbs of grain for every one pound of meat?

Immediately someone brought up insects as being more efficient. I'm pretty sure they don't feel pain, are efficient (someone mentioned that stag beetles are the most efficient animals), and they're loaded with protein. Apparently crickets are 50% protein. Furthermore, anyone can raise them and you don't need special licensing to do so, yet.

>>2661245
No problem. I'm designed to do a lot of things I don't do. And the same goes for you.

>>2661279
>worth
0/10

>>2661148

the real measuring-stick for sentience is self-awareness.

A cow does not know it is a cow.

>>2661279
Wheat.

>>2661252
On point 2, you are pretty darn wrong. The numbers have been crunched for that and there still isn't enough, close but not enough. if we did what you said it would help the issue but not come close to ending it. but if we took your idea and improved or crops via genetic modification and implemented tower farming I think it would workout.

>>2661286
So, you only eat things it's not worth eating?

>>2661287

How do you know? Did you ask it?

>>2661241

My lame excuses? Such as stating the truth? Good one.

>>2661240

As cruel as it might sound to you, we do not sit on infinite resources. And without birth control, there will always be some who are hungry. Some must die so that others can live.

>>2661291
Plants have plenty of senses, try again.

>>2661298
I'm just quoting an economist that won the Nobel Prize in Economics for his work showing what I said, but I can't be arsed to look it up and you'll just hit me with a [citation needed], so, whatever. It's not like I care that much about this.

>>2661252
I'm not bitching about the environment, I just stated a fact. Livestock production causes more greenhouse gas than all the cars, boats, planes and whatnot combined. Just sayin'.

>>2661299
Neg
Your attempt to turn the argument into one that is based soley on your opinion of worth is transparent.

>>2661287
My mother in law does.

>>2661265

#1 Your body is the best machine you will ever own. #2 Good health is probably the best cornerstone of a good life.

You might as well get the best body that your genes can possibly express, and if this implies a little extra protein, then so be it. Being at the top of the food chain rocks.

We will get edible test-tube meat in our lifetimes, which will remove any ethical hangups to its consumption anyway.

>>2661325
And I don't give a shit in the slightest, and you assuming I (or anyone at all) care enough to change my dietary habits makes you a hippie. Is that clear enough for you?

>>2661307
What truth ? The fact that we have canines is true. It is also irrelevant.

>>2661281
Also if they are raised in a highly oxygenated environment then they will grow bigger. a bit selective breeding and you could have ones the size of your fist.

>>2661326
Well I'm not going to eat something I don't consider worth eating, that'd be stupid.

If you must use scientific terms, go with nutritional value.

>>2661338
confirmed for selfish fuck
>>/b/

>>2661338
Wait, what? Why so defensive, brah? No one is trying to turn anyone into anything here. Just stop the ad hominems and leave the thread if you feel offended.

>>2661349
>worth
lol keep troolin
0/10

>>2661319
I thought you equated senses with nervous systems, since you did in you previous post.

>>2661320
we it isn't like you couldn't do Tue same to me, citations are usually what make the argument.

The question isn't whether animals are sentient rather than are the conscious. Yes, they feel pain, yes they act on. Do they know it is the real question. Or do they merely respond to stimuli.

It is hard for us to understand since we are both sentient AND conscious.

So, vegetarians and vegans. What happens when we develop in vitro meat and "Big Meat" becomes ethically in-line?

>>2661141
The abolitionist movement was also emotionally motivated. Just because an argument is emotional does not exclude it from being logical.


>>2661055
Sentience does not bring any intrinsic value to animals; however, their capacity to suffer which is well understood should dictate the way in which we treat them.

It seems like a weak argument to state that because something tastes good that its justified to induce suffering, especially considering the amount of suffering typical of most factory farms.

Alternatively, you could agree with this veg-fag 100% but still eat meat and if he tries to lay into you then denounce his argument as ad hominem. Further, you can agree with the vegan template and still eat meat simply as a consequence of the inherent is-ought problem.

As far as "healthy-eating" goes, vegans have the same median lifespan as omnivores and several body builders and health gurus have been/are vegan with no dire consequence, so that would suggest the vegan/meat eating debate is moot.

But thats just like my opinion, man.

She's a vegarnivore

>>2661377
I would respond if I even know what the fuck is that. Got any links?

>>2661372
Senses and nervous systems go hand in hand, someone else drew the line at a nervous system, I myself find the line much further back than that, and have trouble working out how to simply respire in an ethical manner, let alone find something worth eating that doesn't have to be killed first.

>>2661377
We'll eat that meat, except for those who have no taste for it.

>>2661381

did those vegans / body builders turn vegan after they grew up? That would be significant.

My cat eats meat. Is my cat ethical?

>>2661391
No. Wheat grows upwards just because the cells individually sense the light. No nerves and no system.

>>2661413

No, but you're a faggot.

if there were no carnivores or omnivores we probably wouldnt be alivce now, i agree that our ways or slautering them are wrong, and could be more humain. if we weren't supposed to eat meat, whyh would it be so high in protein and other essentyial nutrients. id like to meet this fag so i could give him a peice of my mind.

>>2661413
Depends what they eat and how it's killed, a well trained mousing cat will feed itself and kill it's prey in a moderately fast and painless manner.

I doubt your cat was raised to kill live prey though.

>>2661391
>wants to eat something that wasn't originally alive
>doesn't know how to biology

>>2661420
If each cell senses the light and doesn't communicate, how does the wheat turn towards it?

>>2661423
>humain

>>2661429
Ethically speaking, I'd very much like to live without killing anything if possible.

Since it's not, I settle for being omniverous but feel slightly guilty about all of it.

Yes, even the potatoes, breaks my heart to see them trying to grow out of the paper bag when I have to skin slice and boil them while they're still alive.

>>2661377
If no other animal other than us is involved in making that, all right. But still, shit sounds disgusting. Probably wouldn't eat it.

>>2661435

Light activates enzymes that break down the rigid plant wall on one side and synthesize new on the other side, that's how it "bends".

>>2661427

there was a national geographic that I watched with a wild cheetah was playing with a young gazelle the same way house cats play with mice, i.e. catching it; letting it go and running it down again and again until it (presumably) is killed.

so much for your quick and painless model.

>>2661443

You're a faggot for sympathizing with lesser beings. Can you people believe this guy? I mean, really, what a stupid fucking hippie. Everyone should be an uncaring douche.

Personally, I'm a vegan because I disregard ethics.

The people that think they have the right to exploit animals because they're humans and others are not, because they are able to digest meat (but cooked meat preferably), or for some other arbitrary reason, are full of shit.

I assume the fact that I've got no right to eat meat, and the fact that cows have no right to live free.

I'm also okay with doing things I have no right to do. But animal liberation would have several positive effects, ecologically and sociologically, so I support that.

>>2661447
We could probably describe an animals experience of pain in such terms too, with a little more understanding of the brain, what exactly is the difference that a nervous system makes here?

>>2661462

No. Just no. Go pick up a biology textbook before making such bullshit assumptions.

>>2661456
Housecats play with mice specifically because they've not been trained to kill them by their parents.

An isolated example from another species doesn't really invalidate my point.

It's necessary.
The process should be more humane to avoid torturing the animals.

If not eating meat is so moral, home come becoming a vegetarian turns you into a faggot, the most immoral type of person possible?

>>2661462
A difference similar to the one between a transistor and a computer.

>>2661466
I'd like to get to the root of the ethical distinction here is all.

It seems to me that the only reason we care about the suffering of animals is because they suffer in a way we can readily identify with.

That doesn't seem like a good way to decide what's right.

>>2661471
Flawless logic, turning into a meat eater again. THANK YOU BASED GOD

>>2661460
>I accept the fact that I've got no right to eat meat, and the fact that cows have no right to live free.
Fixed.

Fucking english, if you want to use french words, use them correctly.

>>2661471
you faggot. lol'd so hard.

>>2661470
There's no realistic way to do that unless people raise their own animals.

>>2661498
I think everyone raising and slaughtering their own animals would be FAR less humane.

Even with training most of us aren't exactly going to do a quick and neat job of it.

>>2661467

I disagree. All the killing instinct is there, but because they have been well fed, they see no need to kill their toy and stop the fun (just like that cheetah). I agree that feral cats have more practice.

When cats see that small moving object, they know what to do. I've never seen any cat do anything else except go straight for the back of the neck. When they want a toy they just don't bite down hard.

>>2661510
Now we're getting into complicated issues of how our lifestyle and how we force it on our cats causes their behavior to change.

I think that's a topic too nebulous for this thread, and probably this board altogether.

>>2661128
>It's delicious,

On that thought, does anyone have more information on the theory that humans are unable to truly taste meat?

>>2661509

correct. my dad raised rabbits for a few years when I was a young kid. You are supposed to kill them with a hard blow to the back of the neck/ base of the skull with a rod. I watched him screw that up a couple times.

a cow + a bolt gun is 100x more humane.

here is my train of thought.
sun fuels plants, animals eat plants, carnivore animals eat those animals, we humans eat all three.
everything gets its energy (i.e. sustenance) from the sun either directly or indirectly
MORAL PROBLEM SOLVED
btw we are the only species that rapes, murders, and wages war among other morally incorrect things for morally incorrect reasons. i think the wolves and other carnivores have it right in the fact that eating other beings is naturally correct.

>>2661390

It's growing meat artificially instead of growing an animal.

Ethics are totally relative. You can't prove that something is good or bad, though you can make an emotional argument.

By the amount of responses I've gathered from this thread, it seems to be ok to eat small babies too, amirite?

>>2661613
Yes you can. You just have to define good and bad in a precise, testable way beforehand.

>wants a scientific or logical argument
>to an ethical question

Wat.

>>2661593
Incorrect. lions and monkeys also rape. chimps also wage a less polished version of 'war'

>>2661698
Dolphins also rape and kidnap other dolphins.

>>2661753

Humans also rape and kidnap other humans.

Human meat is the best meat to eat.

>>2661773
We're apex predators. We accumulate heaps of toxins as well as requiring a huge amount of time and energy to develop.

>>2661593
Other primates rape and murder. Some even murder infants.

>>2661055
Other creatures would be more than willing to eat you. Why can't you do the same?

I heard some infants murder rapists

Jesus Christ. /fit/ knows more about dietary science than you faggots.

>>2661817

Do you find this surprising? Fitness fanatics obsess over this.

>>2661817
Shut up and eat your Big Mac

Yes you can survive healthily as a vegetarian/vegan it just takes some convoluted ways to get certain vitamins and proteins.

Or you can just eat a balanced diet of meat, fish, vegetables and fruits like we are evolved to do.

Its not hard.

>>2661795
You can. But just because you can doesn't mean it's the best you can do.

>>2661837
It doesn't take more effort to eat healthily with a vegan diet than to eat healthily with a whatever diet.
And it's not hard.

Human meat is delicious!

Well, there really isn't a reason to eat red meat every day. Also, there isn't a reason that you should completely exclude red meat from your diet either.

Eat small nutritious meals often (6 400 calorie meals a day).
Drink water every day.
Fish 3 times a week. (Not fried in oil, grilled. Don't get bottom feeders, get aggressive muscle fish. Healthy strong fish that work for their food are high in heart-healthy Omega 3.)
Red meat 1 time a week.

Going total rabbit will lessen your blood's ability to carry oxygen.

>>2661128
Smashing you in the teeth would be delicious, and therefore important to my mental and physical wellbeing.

ITT: A lot of people not realizing that evolution created creatures without regard to morality. Morality only emerges with intelligent life. (So arguments such as "lions eat other sentient animals, thus it's okay" are invalid.)

>>2661971

meat from mammals has been strongly linked to colorectal cancer, so I'd stay away from it if possible. Most other meats seem to be okay in moderate amounts. Plant foods are still the most healthy. No way around it.

To anyone who's interested, here's a movie about how we exploit animals for our benefit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ce4DJh-L7Ys

It's called Earthlings. I've known some people that go vegetarian/vegan after watching it, it's truly sad.

>>2661957
This.
And be nice to animals; they're just animals.

Sentience and perception is not quantifiable. Climate change, and the effect factory farms have on the environment, is quantifiable.

Environmentalism should be the reason for vegetarianism, not "ANIMALS FEEL PAIN TOO".

Non-veg btw.

I'm talking a little out of my ass, but I remember Sardinia having some of the healthiest inhabitants on earth, mostly because of the food, which consists of fresh fruits, cheese, wine, fish, and a little red meat.
My 2 cents.

Animals aren't reeeeeally sentient..

>>2662056
Neither are people.

>>2662062
Oh you

well, if you're thinking about health, go veggies. If you're trying to prove morality, tell your friend about the circle of life.

>>2662070
It's true enough, we're not really as sentient as it feels like we are, half the things people attribute to sentience we barely do for the vast majority of the time.

I don't get vegetarians. They are like defeated humans. Don't you understand we conquered the animal kingdom? If we weren't smarter then all these beasts they would have devoured us blindly, out of hunger and a savage bloodthirst. So fuck'em!

Eat meat and bask in our victory over the ruthless unthinking species gents!

also they aren't sentient or they would be organized. They just stand their and let you kill them lol

>>2661982
horribly biased propaganda is horribly biased.

i stopped watching when they showed mistreatment of animals, then followed with pictures of africans being taken into slavery.

mistreating animals is much, much worse.

>>2662075
Give me evidence to back up your claim, buddy. Obviously consciousness is an illusion and all that, but, really, we are pretty fucking sentient. I know this is not really a valid argument, but we have the most sentience of any known organism or computer

>I have no justification whatsoever to eat meat other than because i like it.
You're right, and i'm gonna continue eating my delicious burger while you eat your tissue tasting salad. Good day, sir.

ITT: Butthurt meat eaters that can't justify their position.

>>2662132
I don't need to it's legal, LOL.

God i'm so fucking hungry now, thanks you treehugging bastards

reason to eat meat is simple:
it is the best source of protein and is almost a requirement if you lift weights.

also, one reason our intelligence evolved was due to eating meat. eating meat provided a large source of dietary protein. the excess protein could get used on making more neurons, (ie a larger brain). if this isn't a reason to eat meat, i don't know what is.

>>2662132

There are innumerable health benefits of eating meat, to say, for example, it serves as a fabulous source of high quality proteins, which a single vegetarian food is not able to provide. It contains all the essential amino acids that the body requires.

The red meat contains very high quantities of iron, when compared with plant origin foods. 100 grams of Liver contains 6000 mcgm of iron as against 325 mcgm in 100-gram carrots.

The phosphorus content present in meat gets muchmore easily absorbed than that present in cereals and legumes. This is owing to the fact that cereals and legumes contain phosphorus, usually in the form of phytic acid that must be hydrolyzed before absorption. Meat also serves as the main source for the intake of vitamin B12.

I am a meat eater. I have no morals one way or another about what meat I eat. Bull testicles, fish roe, chicks, veal, human, donkey, eagle. I don't give a fuck on whether or not it can feel pain. Give me a good reason that is based on science and not emotions on why I should care about how any sort of creature feels.

>>2662143
>basing his morals on the legal system

You silly human you!

>ITT butthurt vegefags with liberal guilt.

hope a lion eats all of you hahaha

>>2662152
> if this isn't a reason to eat meat, i don't know what is.

It WAS a reason to eat meat (unknown by them). It isn't now. Stuff yourself with meat everyday and see what happens.

>>2662154
NOPE.jpg

>>2662152
ftfy:
the reason to eat meat is simple:
it is the best source of protein and is almost a requirement if you want to become a fattie.

also, one reason the average American devolved was due to eating meat. eating meat provided a large source of dietary protein. the excess protein could get used on making more fat, (ie a larger fatties). if this isn't a reason to stop eating meat, i don't know what is.

>>2662177

>devolved

I own a bear rug for shits n giggles I also own 2 shrunken monkey heads and one bison skull.
Deal with it, veggies. Everyone dies sooner or later

>>2662177
Lol, is that what they tell you in vegetarian school now? I don't suppose the average American is a land monster due to corn products being in everything and most of our food is laced in either sugar or salt. Nah, it's got to be the protein right?

>>2662154

Jesus Tittyfucking Christ I haven't read more bullshit written together in my life.

>>2662157
We'll need people like you to settle in space; eating themselves to keep a sustainable space colony.

>>2662180
>dumbass

>>2661055
The correct answer was: your assertion has no basis in reality. You have justification for saying it's wrong. Just as morality is a product of our evolutionary past and survival of our species, so is eating meat. Cross species morality is the real hoax.

>>2662191
The same proteins that will give you a "larger brain"?

i have a close friend who is vegetarian, she has not eaten meat in like 10 years

she told me that when she goes with her friends to some taqueria, she craves for tacos, she really misses meat (not in that way, you silly anon)

but now that she's a vegetarian her health is so much better, no more gastritis, no more random allergies, no more headaches, she feels great, so she sacrificed meat for health,

thats a perfectly fine reason and i admire her strength

>>2662218
What does that have to do with anything? The brain runs on glucose, not protein.

>>2662211
>Cross species morality is a hoax

What the fuck is cross species morality? How is me wanting to lessen the suffering of beings so similar to me some kind of 'hoax'?

>>2662211
>willing to sacrifice morals for eating meat

>>2662241
Where do you draw the line with beings that are "similar" to you?

>>2662226
That has to do with reading the posts in the thread, dumbfuck. >>2662152

>>2662225
She was probably allergic to something found in the meat she was eating.

>>2662191

I was going to add that we're hydrogenating everything now too, but I haven't found any info on how much that alters calorie consumption.

>>2662248
You mean the post that I made fun of? Glucose = brain fuel. Meat = protein. Glucose =/= protein. Lrn2science.

>>2662244
I draw the line exactly when the animal is feeling pain exactly like I do, I don't really need another reason, but that's just me.

>>2662241
Because morality was evolved to benefit your own species. It's a hoax because you twisted morality into something it's not, and that something is a harlequins fetus with down syndrome.
>>2662242
>willing to fabricate morals to make yourself feel superior

>>2662267
>feeling pain exactly like I do
Even different people have different experiences of pain. How can you expect living things to feel the same pain as you?

What about protozoa and other microscopic multicelled organisms? Zillions of them must be dying during crop harvests.

Ask the hipster why he is wearing clothing that is manufactured in countries where the sentience of children and underpaid workers is exploited for profit. His answer will be he likes the vogues of society or he will try and claim he wears home-made hemp (if he does, he is a stoner). It is simply because he can; why cannot he accept the same reasoning regarding what you stick in your mouth?

Neither are justifiable, really. Morality is your business.

>>2662266
>Glucose = brain fuel. Meat = protein.
But a brain can't exist without a body made of protein. Brains also can't grow without protein.

>>2662266
Too much food = bad. Too much food =/= awesome science superpower. You = delusional fattie. Lrn2reality.

>>2662292

We have a winner.

>>2662292
Nuts, beans, lentils, and cheese all contain lots of protein.

>>2662287
Lol @ the microorganisms argument. Heard it a thousand times. I'm not a tree hugger or an animal lover. I'm talking about physical pain as felt by an organism with a nervous systems, that is: Cows, Pigs, Chickens, Fish, nothing more, nothing less. Don't put words in my fingers.

They feel pain, they try to avoid it. So do we. Too hard to comprehend?

>>2662300
I also have another great source of protein for you!!! All you have to do is close your eyes and suck it out of a tube.

>>2662300
But not all the necessary proteins

>>2662278
>Because morality was evolved to benefit your own species.

I hate spouting quotes, but this one fits here.

Nothing will benefit human health and increase chances for survival of life on Earth as much as the evolution to a vegetarian diet. -Einstein

A life free of meat will lead to a better life. FACT.

>>2662305
>implying that only macroscopic organisms have nervous systems
LOL, so your morals only apply to animals that you can see? That means it has nothing to do with feeling pain at all.

>>2662317

Prove it.

>>2662317
>A life free of meat will lead to a better life. FACT.
pulling a "fact" out of your ass

>>2662317
There are currently 7 Billion of us. Pretty sure whatever we are currently doing is working.

>>2662323
Full retard.

>>2662324
Look at the people waddling into Burger King.

Vegetables are less fuel with more elements, and they require more effort to turn into calories. That's why. You can still get fat, but you have to actually try very hard.

>>2662317
"We evolved from herbivores to omnivores, which contributed to the rapid development of our brains." -Oppenheimer

>>2662338
I don't think watching people come in and out of burger king is proof of anything sorry.

>>2662338
>That's why. You can still get fat, but you have to actually try very hard.
yeah, eating cake and fruit pies and shit won't make you fat at all.

Ethics are subjective and unquantifiable. They have no place here.
All things in moderation. Eat nothing but meat every meal and you die of a heart attack. Eat no meat and your a vegetarian. Both outcomes equally distasteful.
Human genetics has over time grown to need meat in our diets. Vegetarians are retarded and your first mistake was talking to it.

>>2662336
>never heard of nematodes

>>2662300

and I am sure 16 ounces of nuts, beans, lentils, and cheese will be better on your stomach and provide more nutrition than a nice porterhouse

>>2662324
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_effects_of_meat_production

inb4 hurrr wikipedia

>>2662349
Cheese is derived from animal products and animal exploitation so it doesn't count. Also that entire list of yours won't provide the same amount of protein as the meat.

>>2662349

Nuts can hurt. If you accidentally swallow one before it's totally pulverized you could end up with some nice bleeders next time you're on the toilet.

>>2661133
People seem to be confusing sentience and sapience again...
Many organisms have been found to be sentient, but only humans have defined as sapient. (thus far)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sapience
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentience

>>2662347
>HEY WE KILL MILLIONS OF MICROORGANISMS EVERYDAY SO I DONT CARE ABOUT KILLING MAMMALS

Makes sense.

Have you any idea how hard it is to digest grass(es)?

A lot of grass eating animals regurgitate in one for or another, either by ...well regurgitating or by eating their own feces.
They're specialized to eating grass yet still need to eat it multiple times, it's that shitty.

Now imagine yourself in a nice grassland, with let's say 4 breeding pairs of rabbits.

What's more economical to eat?
Going vegan and eating the grass?
or
Eating the bunnies which bio-alchemized the grass into bunny meat?


Vegans would die if they'd go the grass route.

Luckily we have a wide selection of readily available alternatives to meat, so it's all good.
Plus I agree that we eat too much meat.

Still, we can...and do eat meat for a reason. It's more and easier nourishing than general plant matter.
Fruits and vegetables are easier than regular plants, and meat is even better than both of those, from a practical standpoint.

Ethics schmetics.

>>2662354
I agree with that article, if we kill off EVERY herbivores than we can use 100% of the land for ourselves!!!

Also I saw no arguments in that article that would apply to eating fish.

>>2662324
Wait until your first heart attack.

>>2662374
That is why a lot of people who stopped eating land meat still eat fish. It's actually quite beneficial and I wouldn't mind eating fish again, it's fucking tasty, but I've made a commitment and I plan to keep it that way.

Look at the GI tract of a herbivore.
Now do the same to a carnivore.
Now a human.

We lack the system required to completely digest plant matter.

>>2662367
>HEY, ALL I CARE ABOUT ARE THE BIG ANIMALS. ALL THE SMALLER ONES CAN GO TO HELL FOR ALL I CARE. I'M STILL A MORAL PERSON!

>>2662394
>implying I call myself a moral person
But statically I'm killing less, so I'm better than thou. Har har.

I eat meat. But I respect life.
The meat packing industry as a whole is disgusting.
lrn2civilization

Hypothetically... say everyone in The world suddenly decides no more beef and beef production halts. WTF do we do with all the cattle after that?

We would still have to control their population, by either bringing in cattle predators or just annually arbitrarily killing excess, also, their standard of living would be drastically reduced since we would no longer have a stake in keeping them healthy and disease/parasite free.

If we didn't control their population and movements (since killing them and keeping them caged is ethically or morally wrong?), they would likely do like that asshole the buffalo did and turn middle America back into a giant fucking desert with their constant robotic consumption of all plant life in sight in return for giant piles of shit everywhere with all the extra greenhouse gasses that come with their wastes (seriously have you ever seen a cowpen.. there is a reason they are so restricted in their range).

>>2662343
Weigh them. Every one over 250 lbs that goes through their doors and comes out 5 or pounds heavier is all the proof I need.

>ITT: bleeding heart pussies who still believe in objective morality.

The whole "eating meat is unhealthy" argument is total bullshit. Eating meat is good for your health, it only starts to become a problem when you eat excessive amounts of it. Same thing happens with veggies (eating large amount of pasta for example).

The problem with most vegans is that they go out of their way to let you know they're a vegan, like it's some invitation only club.

I prefer not to eat meat, though I can't give up on fish or eggs, but I don't parade myself around as a Herald of the Vegan Master Race.

>>2662431
>Hypothetically...
Flawed argument is flawed.

Can someone please settle an alternative debate for me?

What is the deal with organic food? Is it good for you, or the product of anti-science nuts?

>>2662436
>arbitrary statistics

>>2662338

Lrn2 Itanlian

Seriously most fat Italian people get that way from the carbohydrate intake that comes with excess pasta and pizza which can easily integrate into a vegetarian diet also, its not only the burgers, but the 64 ounces of soda pop that these people eat with their meals and last time I checked sugar came from plants.

>>2662459

I know... the world as a whole isn't retarded enough to embrace vegetarianism

>>2661254

I'm 6'2, 210, veggie, AND Indian. Your argument is invalid.

>>2662472
Indians use the Imperial system?

>>2662472

>implying anecdotal evidence is ever valid

Why do I eat meat?

Because it's delicious and I have seen no personal negative effects from it, or at least no negatives to outweigh the positives.

Why should I stop eating meat?

Because it hurts animals and it would help reduce starvation.

Why should I give a flying fuck about the animals and starving kids in Africa and Asia?

Oooo, tough question. I think the answer is...

I shouldn't. Simply put, I don't give a fuck if what I'm eating can feel pain. If anything, it feeling pain causes the animal to put out more substances that lead to a more tender and flavorful meal. I would bet money that the sweetest meat would come from a five year old child that has been fed red apples for a week, who is then slowly tortured with knifes then killed. And you know what? I'd be perfectly fine with eating that child.

All your arguments that are based or ethics or environmentalism don't work on me. Sorry.

>>2661613
I love how some fags are saying that morals are relative or exclusive to the individual. Relativism is just about the most widely rejected ethical theory in contemporary philosophy.

Mainly people are mincing finer details to avoid the initial premise motivating veganism. The majority of scientists would agree that high functioning animals (vertebrae) suffer to a greater capacity than life forms lacking nervous systems (plants). To minimize suffering one should consume less or no animal products. How is this hard to understand? Where does the confusion lie? Where do you disagree? I really don't see how people can at least in principle not believe in these simple axioms.

>>2662481
I believe in principle, but that isn't going to stop me. Call me immoral, but I need my chicken nuggets, motherfucker.

>>2662481

explain to me why I should care if animals are suffering.

>>2662481
Give an example of an 'objective' or 'universal' wrong that is not just an en masse/majority view.

>>2662481

>To minimize suffering one should consume less or no animal products.
To minimize suffering, prey animals should be slaughtered quickly and humanely

fixed

>>2662492
It does not need to be explained to you. You either do or you don't and others will judge you for it. Should you give a flying fuck about that too? Nah.

But then again, if you don't care, why the fuck are you on this thread?

The real question is: Will the consumption of sentient beings be banned sometime in the future?

That'll be a shitstorm.

We won, enjoy the spoils

>>2662507
Most people are omnivores. That means being a meat eater is still viewed as normal.

Yes, it's morally wrong.
The fact that OP came to /sci/ because he was outwitted by a vegetarian is funny.

>>2662516
YEAH!

meat eaters: 100
vegans: 0

>>2662507

how does animal suffering affect me? I care to a small degree about people judging me because that has consequences in my life. Why should anyone care about an animal suffering? It has literally no tangible effect on them whatsoever.

>>2662481

If you claim that morals and ethics do not vary from person to person, then you are implying that I, in fact, do give a shit about whether or not another creature, man or animal, feels pain, based upon how other humans think. Sadly, that is not the case. It is obvious that with a higher mental state comes the tendency to suffer more. But that does not give me the incentive to reduce the suffering of the other creature, unless it benefits me. To me, a human is equal to a protozoan.

If I saw a cow that was suffering, perhaps it had a broken leg, or was terribly wounded, I would put it out of its misery. Some would call that a mercy killing. But that implies I did it out of the goodness of my heart. In actuality, I would kill the cow simply so I could butcher it and eat it later.

And with a human, I would do the same. If I saw a man on the side of the road who was dying, and it was within my power to save them, I would weigh the positives and negatives. If I save them, I might get a reward. If I kill them, I could have a bite to eat and whatever possessions that they had on their person. Some would say that I should factor the man's thanks into this. Sadly, gratitude has no practical value. Likewise, the same would claim that I should think about the guilt of having a killed a man out of greed on my conscience. Well, my conscience has not a penny to its worth in practical terms, so I prefer to discard it.

>>2662524
OP is a vegan pretending to be a meat eater.

>>2662499
Yeah absolutely, the proverbial bullet in the back of the head doesn't induce suffering. However, the reality of factory farms present an institution okay with burning the beaks off of chickens and keeping them in ultra tiny cages for the duration of their lives among other unsavory practices. While their are humane ways to eat meat, it is well understood that the vast majority of meat is produced through the exploitation of animals.

>>2662531

gratitude is a big part of where our morals come from. Its like the saying "there is no unselfish act". Everything we do is done because in some way our mind sees it as the best thing to do, whether or not that is actually the case. "selfless" acts come with a warm and fuzzy feeling that makes them "worth it" to most people.

>>2662531
Not that I disagree you, you make a very valid and logical point. But you do realize that a civilization cannot be sustained with this train of thought?

the samefagging is obvious

>>2662549

It is because both of you are failing to make the distinction between morality and ethics.

>>2662549

just throw in the golden rule and he's got it right. We do things for others because thats what we want them to do for us. We make murder and theft illegal because we don't want to be murdered or stolen from. We have a natural inclination to help people out due to a primal herd mentality hardwired into our brains. We are still animals after all.

>>2662562

Well, not entirely because of the 'herd mentality'. There is much more complicated neuroscience behind it.

>>2662569

obviously this is true, but I'm not a neuroscientist.

This whole debate is stupid and I'm sick of seeing it here. It's nothing but hurrs and durrs. I'm a vegetarian but I'm okay with meat eating, though I'd prefer the meat not come from shithole factory farms. I don't make a huff about it because it is a personal lifestyle choice that is none of my business. Vegs and omnis can both be healthy or unhealthy, depending on their dietary choices.

These threads are always the same. Same basic OP, same basic arguments, same basic retardation. Stop it.

>>2662495
This question is extremely obtuse, you can't prove anything as objective be it ethical or scientific. Heck, a fundamental part of hypothesis testing is that you can never prove the null hypothesis. This is why it is common to set widely accepted axioms Physics does this and so does ethics. I think its kind of a no brainer to decide on "suffering is bad" as a base axiom for an ethical theory. This isn't universal by any means (utilitarianism embraces it, rights theory at least somewhat rejects this), but I find it provides for a clear starting point on formulating secular morals. Unless of course you're a christfag, then you can just go fuck yourself.

>>2662536

>keeping them in ultra tiny cages for the duration of their lives
as long as the animal is not being starved and it is not constantly crying out as it would in pain... you can't draw the conclusion that a tiny cage causes emotional suffering since many animals (especially young) naturally pack together in confined spaces restrict themselves

If the humane argument is what is at issue, crying hurr... durr everyone should be vegan only discredits and draws attention away from your argument

>>2662480
I'd love to use you as fertilizer to grow apples.
Hmm... Tasty apples!

>>2662581
This is a critique of pretty much all debate ever. Just because you don't get anything out of it doesn't mean other people don't.

Hey, you know what humans also evolved to have? Empathy.

>>2662531

>gratitude has no practical value
Seems to me like it would be better to have a potential slave (or even a helpful friend) than a bunch of quickly rotting, salty, gamey, tough meat... not too mention all the extra work involved with field dressing a person instead of something easy like a deer.

>>2662583

Settle down my friend. You have just stated that ethical systems use axioms to substantiate their moral claims; these 'axioms' are arbitrary presuppositions and are not derived from factuality (which I loosely define as objective) or are not universally found in every culture. You can only claim that the majority support proposition X.

You have played semantics, not addressed the issue and provided no example but to counter saying, "We use axioms" -- arbitrary presuppositions.

I think you just illustrated the meta-ethical relativist view that moral systems rely on presuppositions found from cultural institutions and experiences of the subject.

Please, provide an example.

>>2662608

And why do you think that is? When you work together you can survive and have more sweet baby making time. This has very little to do with whether or not my burger can feel the nail shot into the back of its skull before its processed and fed to me.

>>2662549

That's the beauty of it. I only bring up my own ideas in discussions as another point. I never attempt to convince others to live like me, simply because that would have more negative consequences than positive, which would go against my view of living life practically. All I'm simply doing is providing the other extreme of the spectrum of morals and ethics, in which everything is looked at in terms of positive and negative effects.

Although, if everyone lived in a perfectly rational way, morals and ethics would naturally develop anyway as people realize that the best way to live is to work together. One everyone else is working as a team, sacrificing for the good of everyone, some can and will leave, reducing soci-

You know what, there's an easier way for me to explain it, because I'm dead tired.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_rider_problem

That is exactly the issue with my thoughts. If you think about it enough though, it becomes self-correcting as time passes, solving itself and then arising again in a circular pattern.

>>2662588
I don't think you realize the severity of conditions at a typical factory farm. These cages will be sized such that the chickens' wings will not grow properly, and they have to have their beaks burned so that they don't peck each other to death due to the neurosis they succumb to in these conditions.

I will say that we don't have a good metric of suffering, but then you could go down this slippery slope and say that we don't REALLY know that those black people feel pain when we whip them, but I think its pretty obvious after learning about conditions of the typical farm that the animals are uncomfortable to say the least.

>>2662608
Hey, you know what humans also evolved to have? Bacteria and Mechanisms to digest and metabolize meat.

>>2662599

Except this debate is literally the same every time. Seriously, the OP is always "this vegetarian told me that meat eating is wrong, what a faggot". I should start taking screencaps of this shit.

>>2662592

And if the work required to find, kill, transport and process me into fertilizer makes the apples delicious enough to warrant the time and energy, then by all means, try it. But, if you are trying to destroy my argument using its logic, you're going to have to find a situation where there is an action in which the negatives outweigh the positives, but taking the action is still beneficial.

>>2662623

So we are also responsible for making sure they don't make each other suffer?

Threads on front page:
>Hawking's explanation of the twin paradox: 1 post omitted
>Our existence in a 3D vs 4D plane: 1 post omitted
>Discovery of extra-terrestrial bacteria: 0 posts omitted
>Microcontroller commands: 4 posts omitted
>Importance of infinite series: 34 posts omitted
>Logic theory question: 15 posts omitted
>Ethics of eating animals vs being vegan: two-hundred-and-thirty-fucking-six posts omitted
Goodnight /sci/

>>2662642

Hawking explaining the twin paradox? Why the fuck am I still in this thread! Later!

>>2662623

All I am saying is your time would be better spent fighting those conditions and educating people on the conditions of slaughterhouses. That alone will get SOME people to naturally convert to your lifestyle, but once you start hurr durring that everyone should be vegetarian and then give bullshit statistics... it allows others to focus on that aspect of the argument (since it is easily refutable) and only hurts the fight against poor farm conditions.

>>2662616

My point is that evolution is not a good argument to use in favor of any moral system, which you seem to agree with.

>>2662615
You aren't even really making a point here, I tell you that asking for an objective anything is rather dumb because objective is such a bullshit idea.

For instance: if you asked for an objective "fact" I might say "all copper expands when heated" which as far as I know is true, most people agree with that, but there is no formal proof that it is true and objective. Similarly I can suggest that the holocaust was evil, abhorrent, bad, etc. In principle I think this is "true"(TM) but again there is no formal proof of this. The only things you can really call "true" are tautologies but to function in society we have to decide at some point where to draw the line. Really though this back and forth is highly dogmatic and should be avoided. Empirically I think it has been deduced to a reasonable degree that animals suffer more than plants and that suffering is bad and that it would be best to reduce it as much as possible.

>>2662464
>arbitrary statistics

I want to see you reproduce with a heaving mountain of fat.

If you are so fat that you cannot reproduce, you are no-longer alive, even if you are self-aware.

>>2662629
you go girl!

>>2662670

your mother won't return my calls... I think her dialing stick is broken

This video is an interview between Dawkins and Singer I think you all should watch if you have the time. Singer provides a very robust secular ethical theory, I think he presents the vegan's case well (though he is not a vegan).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYYNY2oKVWU

>>2662687
No, she ate herself to death.

I don't even kill cows on minecraft.. unless the fuckers walk all over my crops!

>>2662742

Cows in minecraft are so god damn useless. Really, who is going to spend 10-15 minutes hunting down enough leather to make armor that is gone in 10 seconds of combat? It was barely time-effective when it was made out of wool.

If meat is a healthy enough dietary component for my cat, it's good enough for me.

>>2662733

someone explain WHY it is in our favor to not allow these animals to suffer?

>>2662642
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