/sci/ - Science & Math

its nowhere near
robots cant even pick bananas
they wont be better than what we have now
for most tasks
anytime soon

>Is this a likely future /sci/?
it is the present
>How far away or near transhumanism are we?
already a few steps into it
>Would you "upgrade" yourself if you could?
yes
>Even if you're perfectly healthy?
yes

I'm looking at neuroscience and biomedical engineering. I want to make that future a reality.

>>2653293
>>2653297
>contradictions
the fuck am I reading?

Very likely future.

As to replace human limbs? Less than 20. However limbs that SURPASS human ones will take up to 50 years.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjEH2-uek8k&feature=channel_video_title
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X85Lpuczy3E&feature=channel_video_title
http://www.futuretimeline.net/21stcentury/2030-2039.htm#bionic-eyes

I would indeed. As soon as these upgrades come out and they don't have some planned obsolescence bullshit (meaning I don't want them to fail every ~10 years) I will upgrade myself.

Fuck transhumanism.

Pure human loyal to his species reporting in.

>>2653286
what about genetic engineering?
organic vs mechanical?
>>2653350
there will always be purists. can't blaim you. it's your opinion and your right as a human being.

>>2653286

1) Yes
2) I'd say 60 years or so to reach the level of Deus Ex
3) Definitely, not necessarily big parts of the body, but something to improve memory, senses, avoid some diseases, etc, would be great. Also, I always wanted to see in a wider range of frequencies, just imagine looking at the sky in 60 years.

>>2653293
Robots aren't required to have transhumanism, the Singularity isn't the only option. Genetic engineering and biotechnology in general are moving pretty steady.

I want to be a biological organism, but not static and vulnerable like humans. I think everybody should be able to manipulate their DNA so we can completely customize our appearance and biochemistry. We should push biochemistry and genetics as far as possible to make us extremely smart and intelligent, and immortal of course. I'm into DIYbio, where in the future we can program ourselves like we program a computer today.

Oh fuck yes I would upgrade. Did you hear about that scottish chick who implanted magnets in her fingertips so she feel magnetic forces? I'm going to do that as soon as I figure out how to get over being a pansy.

>>2653426
http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/12/transcending-the-human-diy-style/
Are you talking about her? She's been to the hospital a bunch of times, not to mention how many infections she's got. be careful if you're implanting things in yourself.

The team that worked on it put a lot of time in it, but the first time I saw this I must say I was amazed and lost a lot of skepticism:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pz_DV7elpxw

Notice how the monkey still has his other arms, he pretty much learned how to control an _additional_ appendage, in this case a robotic one.

>>2653398
I think this is more along the lines of Prototype than Starcraft and Zerg
being able to manipulate your shape, size and properties of your cells
it's an interesting path, though right now we don't seem to be heading that way (due to the technological boom) but who knows :D

>>2653445
Fuckin' hypocratic oath. Makes me sad.

When this technology becomes available, I'll be augumenting my self with all kinds of crazy awesome shit in a heartbeat.
Replase limbs with better mechanical ones, well of course.
Enchanse my sences and inteligence with implants, goes without saying.
Instal multiple combat tentacles on my back side, just for shit and gigles. Why the hell not?

I cant wait for the day when I can cast away my frail biologial shell, and be finally free to cruise around the cosmos in massive mechanical body, trolling alies and creating wonders. One can only dream...

>>2653397
>imagine looking at the sky in 60 years
60 years from now you can't even see the sky anymore. It's still there, it's just covered with floating ads. Not real ads, but your bionic eyes will overlay ads on every possible surface, including the sky. That's how you pay everything. Some people install adblockers, but such programs have become very illegal.

>>2653445

>Scottish chick

That woman is a joke, really. I noticed she had a talk at CCC end of last year and decided to check out her blog...

90% Borderline Personality Disorder attention seeking, 10% science. She looks like she's roleplaying Molly from Neuromancer or something.

The magnet in finger (or any metal for that matter) to sense EM was accidentally discovered some time ago when a guy had some leftover metal in his finger after an accident.

That being said, I've looked into it as well. And what I think could possibly work here is 4 or so Neodynium "splinters" coated with ceramic implanted under the skin parallel to the direction of your finger. The key is in finding coatings that don't cause the thing to break down nor move around in your skin. I'm going with ceramic here, but there may be better alternatives (probably).

>>2653494

FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU, you're probably right.
You just destroyed my astronomy-admiration dream.

>>2653494
Perhaps in some libertarian future where these things aren't regulated, or if indeed we still have ad agencies in 60 years.

Never gonna happen. Fred Phelps will protest. "Transhumanoids are fags. God hates fags. Q.E.D. God hates Transhunanoids." The 90% of the population who is captive in natural=right mentality will surely suppress any organized attempts at transhumanism, Singularity, etc., for at least another 1,000 years.

>>2653503
I sort of figured that anyone willing to do that without anesthesia would be mentally diseased. Still, it pisses me off that the medical system allows for elective facial reconstruction, a procedure that involves smashing bones with a hammer, yet we can't hire a surgeon to implant this shit in finger tips.

>>2653538
Fuck, they won't even sell us local anesthesia, antibiotics, or immunosuppressants so we can do it ourselves.

>>2653536
that old fag will die soon enough
today, people don't give a shit about religion

>>2653536
Never say that "X will never happen", because one day X happens. H+ won't take 1000 years, it's already here. Phelps can't do shit about it. He's a relic of something that never even existed, soon gone and forgotten.

I think...I THINK...I'd prefer altering the course of evolution through genetic engineering rather than incorporating mechanical parts into a biological system...seems less creepy and Borg-ish to me...

>>2653568

That you use the term "Borg-ish" is creepier.

Also, before someone posts the comic of pictures for sad children:

Transhumanism != Singularitarianism

Fucking learn it you fuck nuts.

>>2653565

Who's this Phelps faggot? seriously though, never heard of him.

>>2653586
There’s a special kind of nerd though who thinks computers will overtake mankind in 30 years, changing humanity in ways incomprehensible to us now, ignoring the third of the world without electricity. So the singularity is the nerd way of saying, “In the future, being rich and white will be even more awesome.”
It’s flying car bullshit: surely the world will conform to our speculative fiction, surely we’re the ones who will get to live in the future.
It gives spiritual significance to technology developed primarily for entertainment or warfare and gives nerds something to obsess about that isn’t the crushing vacuousness of their lives.

>>2653538

>yet we can't hire a surgeon to implant this shit in finger tips

If you are a serious scientist with a degree and a valid research proposal, you'll find someone. Don't forget this is still in the early stages and not a developed product. Research is research, not herpaderp ima plantan dem magnets in my fingers for no fucking reason.

I forgot his name, but there is some professor in Australia who has been implanting stuff in him, like RFID tags and the likes. Too lazy to Google. But he sure as hell didn't do it in his kitchen poorly.

If I was a medical doctor I wouldn't risk implanting something in a mentally unstable "biogrinder" person either.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for this movement but I'd like it if it is done properly.

>>2653592
>Phelps
>faggot
oh the irony!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Phelps
>He is known for the slogans that he and his ministry use against people he deems sinful; his church is built around a core of anti-homosexual theology, with many of their activities stemming from the slogan "God hates fags", which is also the name of the group's main website.

>>2653592
He's something that shouldn't even exist. Read and weep:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Phelps

>>2653602
I guess I should get crackin' on excuse for a physicist to be interested in this "research". Do you think helping with visualization of magnetism would fly?

>>2653615
>>2653618
Just saying that he's the head of the WBC would have been sufficient. But yeah, fuck that guy.

>>2653618
I lulz'd at this:

>In 2003, before the fall of Saddam Hussein during the Iraq War,
>Phelps wrote a letter to Saddam praising his regime for being, in
>his opinion, "the only Muslim state that allows the Gospel of our
>Lord Jesus Christ to be freely and openly preached on the
>streets."[41] Furthermore, he stated that he would like to send a
>delegation to Baghdad to "preach the Gospel" for one week. >Saddam granted permission, and a group of WBC congregants
>traveled to Iraq to protest against the U.S. The WBC members
>stood on the streets of Baghdad holding signs condemning both >Bill and Hillary Clinton, as well as anal sex.[42]

If it were possible, I would do anything to get wings. If that becomes a future, I would be a very happy man.

So...what about this?

>>2653629

Research into the augmentation of sensory perception of the finger tip by means of a magnetic body.

Abstract:

Over the years society has become more and more dependent on electric devices. In essence, human ingenuity has created an addition to the surroundings not present when mankind started to evolve. In this study we explore the possibilities of artificially adding perception of this new technological addition to our living sphere. The insights gained could be of tremendous importance for our understanding of how human beings interact with and respond to the quickly evolving technological world around us.

Or something like that.

Sorry, I've been writing grand proposals the last two weeks.

>>2653651
Why wings? There are easier and more practical ways to fly.

>>2653602
It's not about research though, I mean, breast implants and nosejobs can be done to anybody, and there's no psychological test to prove they're not crazy. I realize that Scottish girl probably has problems but why does magnet fingers have to be "research," and why do prosthetics have to be medically necessary. Cosmetic body enhancements should all be legal, whether it's breast implants or putting a USB in the back of your head. If you have the money, and a doctor is willing, you should be able to implant whatever you want in your body for any reason.

>>2653651
Consider this: With a large dome on the lunar surface w/ an Earth pressure atmosphere, you could strap wings onto yourself and fly about.

>>2653701

Well you are right.

But when you have the money to spend in the range of what a boob job costs, you'll probably find a guy to do it.

The difference is that boob job surgery is a known thing, the research has been done, the procedure standard. Which can't really be said for EM sensing finger tips.

I was alluding to research, because I assumed that the aim of this thread was to develop all this Deus Ex like tech.

>>2653683
Glands that produce methane and store it in a fat like substance would be pretty sweet, but when people start sudenly blowing up it wont be.

>>2653701
"Should" being the operative word.

>>2653474
>combat tentacles

I don't know about transhumanism, augmentation,etc

But are we going to cure cancer in 50 years?

Are we going to completely eradicate all diseases?

Are we going to be able to change personality traits? To go from introvert to extravert and increase activity levels? In how many years? How exactly? Can you describe the method, from gene to tissue and organ?

I'd like to hear something more than just talk and scifi speculation, because if you ask researchers they have very modest hopes of perfecting some treatments of cancers and alzheimers, but when it comes to this sort of topics, it's the feast of transfaggots who dream of escaping their present problems with the help of technology. Geuss what, research is very slow in biomedical fields, technological advance is somewhat faster, but techonology alone doesn not solve real life problems.

>>2653766

>cure cancer in 50 years

Some cancers. There is no such disease as "cancer", they are all different. Some cancers are very clear, so treated therapy is possible and in development. Others are still enigmatic to this day although millions of research money have been thrown at it.

>>2653776

Associated.

>>2653766
>techonology alone doesn't not solve real life problems.
Every social problem is at heart an engineering problem.

>>2653776
OK, so some cancers are not going away because we don't know how to deal with them, but this singularity/transhumanism BS dream is realistic, even though we can't cure all diseases, which implies we are not yet masters of our biology?

Of course I would. What i wish you could do was inject yourself with something to kind of freeze the aging process and make you stronger and no longer finite. It sounds silly, but it would be the best.

>>2653766
>But are we going to cure cancer in 50 years?
Probably not, but the treatments will make it a non-issue.

>Are we going to completely eradicate all diseases?
No, unless we abandon the biological bodies entirely. Then we'll have only computer viruses.

>Are we going to be able to change personality traits?
Some drugs can do this. Don't know if it can be done permanently. I'm not sure if I want to change my personality, because it defines what and who I am. If I change that, won't I become someone else?

>>2653672

I'll tell you about that. Nobody here is even close to being as well qualified, experienced and intelligent enough to dismiss any of the claims in that book.

Disbelief may be reasonably expressed, but anybody who dismisses the predictions of Kurzweil on this board is a complete fucktard.

>>2653814
To be honest, I can't remember a good argument against the singularity.
Anyone like to prove me wrong?

>>2653766
>Are we going to be able to change personality traits? To go from introvert to extravert and increase activity levels? In how many years? How exactly? Can you describe the method, from gene to tissue and organ?


THIS SHIT. I hate it. I don't want a new fucking personality, you dipshit. I'd rather die than become a worthless sheep. Some of the smartest people are socially awkward dudes. If they had friends and partied in college, they might have been too busy to discover shit.

>>2653320
http://www.futuretimeline.net/beyond.htm
what a sad ending ;_;

>>2653805
But how will you live if you leave the biological body?

If diseases cannot be completely cured, this means we are not going to be in total control of our biology to tweak with it. Which means this transhumanism thing is just a fad, like many others from the past.

>>2653814
>>2653822
Well, I understand that technology could develop at that extreme rate given unrestrained growth by people, but IMO Kurzweil forgets about economics, natural disasters, human interest and/or disinterest in pursuing these things, etc. If enough people on Earth were on the exact same page and had nothing in their way to stop them, I think it could happen. But that isn't how things are...and besides, should superintelligence begin converting all matter in the universe into computer substrates, something tells me beings higher than ourselves would destroy it...they would view it as little more than a weed in its early stages. If there's other life out there, why haven't they already done what he predicts?

>>2653833
Whatever dude. Keep living in the lab, then, while most people are busy travelling, having sex and being happy, generally, while not giving a fuck about discoveries, unless it's on the news.

You're basically working for them to be happy. Maybe you get a special place in heaven and stuff.

>>2653822
The events were chosen because of their convenient location in time, not because of their relevance.

>>2653822
I generally assume that people are too optimistic in their time frames, but I can't think or recall any decent argument against the singularity itself.

>>2653748
You know, robotic tentacles. Used in combat. With bears, and possibly with schoolgirls, who knows.
I want them, because I think they'd be awesome. Imagine, you could carry so much stuff, strangle fuckers who looked you in the frong way in the metro while reading the newspaper and drinking your mornig tea. You could grab stuf in high plases and scale walls with combat tentacles.

With combat tentacles, almost everything is possible. If octopi were terrestal species, they would have overrun humanity long time ago, by the sheer awesomnes of the tentacles.

>>2653858
Living in a genetics lab does make me happy, not boring shit like traveling and relationships. Technology is better because there's no feeling like seeing you creations work and come to life. Normal people don't know what they're missing, I'm playing God in the lab, doing real work.

>>2653858
Fuck your heaven

>>2653822
Yeah, how does a neuron work?

Because if everything's working according to Kurzweil's predictions then we will have computers which are more intelligent than humans, right? And this will be achieved based on our knowledge of the brain works. But how does a neuron work?

>>2653839

We can escape that.

>>2653845
>how will you live if you leave the biological body
Just fine, I guess? Depending on where I live, inside a VR or in the real world but using some advanced cyborg body.

>we are not going to be in total control of our biology
>transhumanism thing is just a fad
Eventually we're going to say something like "fuck this, why do we keep trying to fix our fragile bodies, let's go cyber already". After that nobody cares anymore about the biological bodies.

>>2653879
So basically, you want to be Dr. Octagonapus?

>>2653883
You're just doing it for a "feeling"?

>>2653883
Yeah, whatever, but you can't have sex with a bunch of bacteria. And you can't spend New years eve with them either

>>2653898
But..but...DUDE, this biological body is what makes you feel and think, nothing else. There's no proof you can upload yourself or some shit. That's scifi escapism.

>>2653932
>no proof
what the fuck am I reading? of course there's no "proof" since we aren't on that tech level yet...

>>2653910
your goals in life are sex and getting drunk
enjoy getting old

>>2653949
Haha, then you're basing your dream on fucking what? Kurzweil's business of selling a book?

You do realize he is making money selling a book, while not really giving a fuck what happens in 50 years.

>>2653932
Maybe we don't have to upload anything anywhere. Attach brains into some machinery that keeps it alive and connects it into outside world! Or maybe not. Your brains are what makes you "you". You can lose limbs, but you're still "you". You can lose half of your body, but you're still "you". Lose your brains and you're no longer "you". Brains are what we need to preserve, not the body. Moving brains elsewhere won't necessarily change you. You were an asshole before and now you're an asshole with a cybernetic body.

>>2653910
You can do both of those things (I don't), but that's beside the point. I have friends and a social life, you dildo. I also enjoy working in a lab.

That was just an example; what I'm saying is that I don't want to alter my personality or that of anyone else for any reason.

>>2653969
>implying I'm talking about some silly old mans book
you refering to that singularity book someone posted earlier?

>>2653932

>But..but...DUDE, this biological body is what makes you feel and think, nothing else. There's no proof you can upload yourself or some shit. That's scifi escapism.

>There's no proof you can upload yourself or some shit.

You probably think the brain has something special about it that is not explainable by science.

>>2653985
lololololol
Internet brofist

>>2653902
What are you talking about?
>>2653910
Fuck other people. I want power, individual power, not sex or relationships. You can have your drunkenness, ignorance, and pointless hedonism. I want to be master of my own reality, to be a god.

>>2653979
Whatever, that's your choice, but the argument was meant to test the presumed capability of our future technologies. If we aren't able for instance to alter some forms of personality which are dysfunctional, then what's the point of talking about all these tech fairy tales?

>>2653985
human body has absolutely nothing that can't be explained by science
and even if souls do exist, our goddamn human curiosity will find a way to perform soul transfers

[spoiler]i.e. if you're under 30, chances are that you're gonna be offered immortality one way or another

>>2653900

Yep. If that lazor even becomes possible, I'll atach it to my mouth, just like in that pic, so tha I can hide in dumpsters and when the garbage man comes, jump out and jell: I'MA FIRING MA LAZOR! BLGRBLRG!
Then die of laughter afterwards.

>>2653985
How does a neuron work?

http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-02-rewrite-textbooks-conventional-wisdom-neurons.html

>>2654010

Well, that's what I meant. But this guy seemed to be arguing for vitalism, that is: HURR CONNECTOME UPLOADING IS IMPOSSIBLE BECAUSE THE HUMAN MIND IS SPECIAL AND GOD GIVEN AND DID YOU KNOW THAT THE MIND CAN ALTER THE REAL WORLD? LIKE WHOA MAN WHOA, DEEPAK CHOPRA TOLD ME.

>>2654008
To turn us into sexy cyborgs

>>2654017

That we don't know does not mean that we will never know, Jesus Christ, that's like saying "God has not been proven not to exist, so he must exist".

Your turn.

>>2653985
you probably think everything that is analogous to brains using HS CS is basically the same deal

>>2653985
You seriously believe you can upload a consciousness? You believe that consciousness is just a conglomeration of information, with the physical structure of the brain being irrelevant?

GTFO.

>>2654010
Nice to hear that, but I'm 31. Do I still have an chance?

>>2654010
>Turned 30 on Valentine's Day 3 weeks ago.
> FFFFFFUUUUUUUu

>>2654031

No, I know computers don't work the same way as brains. If I want an AI, I would want something that works like a brain, but I wouldn't use a computer. Guess what I'd use?

>>2654033

You're telling me that the structure can't be represented, emulated? Run in a simulation? Or replicated in a real-life, nanomechanical implementation of the brain?

This is just like the God of the gaps argument, but for consciousness, holy shit.

>>2654010
Never been so happy to be underage b&

Ideally, transhuman engineering integrates both organic and inorganic.Where the line is between the two will become less arbitrary with each generation. Yet, where are the resources necessary for these changes going to come from?

Captcha: concerning testen

>>2654010

For fucks' sake, don't turn this thread into a trollfest! I'm going to bed soon minute and I want to see this thread here 7 hours from now.

>>2654033
Shut the fuck up. We don't fully understand neuroscience yet, but we will. God you're so ignorant. You probably would think that we could never understand what made up atoms if it hadn't already been discovered. You obviously have a lot to learn about the world.

>>2654052
9/10

>>2654033
Sorry to burst your bubble, but consciousness is just electrical signals in a biochemical organ. You're not magic, What the Bleep Do We Know watcher.

>>2654030
What the fuck does this have to do with a religious fairy tale.. I just pointed that we fucking thought we knew some simple fuckin basic facts about how the neuron works and then a bunch of guys from a lab found that we don't. I wonder how many of this stuff is still waiting to be reconsidered.

meanwhile, Kurzweil is selling the singularity, with books, conferences, interviews and whatnot. he's making money from this and you faggots buy it.

>>2654033
if you hadn't already noticed, everything is made of information

>>2654057
Get a grip, moron. Since you know so much about what consciousness is, why don't you go get in line with half the other idiots in this thread for your nobel price.

GTFO.

>mfw I merge with helio
u mad sciencefags?

>>2654060

>What the fuck does this have to do with a religious fairy tale.. I just pointed that we fucking thought we knew some simple fuckin basic facts about how the neuron works and then a bunch of guys from a lab found that we don't. I wonder how many of this stuff is still waiting to be reconsidered.

The same thing happened in the early 20th century with atomic theory. There were many models, each more complex than the other, and now we have one sufficiently advanced to give us results accurate to 99.99999% precision.

It can be done, it can't be done now. What is your point?

>>2654056
STFU
unknown =/= unknowable

>>2654062
So let me ask you, moron. How do you plan on uploading someone's personality, their consciousness, when it is intrinsically tied up with the organic structure of their brain, and the chemical makeup of each person?

You idiots have to be trolls, intentional or not, you're so fucking stupid.

>>2654060
I bought Transcendant Man.

>>2654068
-2/10

>>2654036
quite possibly. if you don't die in an accident or from a deadly disease in the meantime

or commit suicide

>>2654069

Go tell mommy how the Internet people made you mad, and after you're done rolling on your own shit, come back so we can have civilized discourse.

>>2654064

CONFIRMED FOR BEST VIDYA MOMENT EVER

>>2654057
Then why dont; you create one in the lab and prove it!

I would love to live and endure long enough to explore the cosmos. Yes, I would 'upgrade'.

>>2654081
>implying we can fully simulate human brain function today
do you come from the future?

>>2654078
Yes, the internet people made me mad. You can tell because I'm using grammatically complete sentences and pointing out how fucking stupid some people are.

You caught me bro. You use mathematics to prove that I'm mad!

>Meanwhile in 3011

Hey /g/,

I'm a daily explorer and FTL traveler and I need some new brain implants. What do you ni/g/gers recommend? inb4 iBrain.

>>2654092

>pointing out how fucking stupid some people are

At least I'm not a nutcase who thinks something is impossible just because it is not doable today!

There is a difference between an engineering barrier and a physical one. Mind uploading and flight are engineering ones. FTL travel and hurrdurrbullshit are physical ones.

>>2654033
Free will and consciousness are illusions. It's all chemistry and it can all be explained simply by interactions between particles. Every choice you think you will make is only because particles in your head are interacting with other particles in your head and with particles outside of your head and . Theoretically, if we fully understood the ways in which all particles in the world interacted, we could predict the infinite. Even time-travel, if it were possible, would be chemically explained and would be able to be predicted just as easily. Now you are probably thinking, "but anon, if we could predict perfectly the future, wouldn't we just change it?" That would all be in the prediction as it would take into account everything that had ever happened, including the prediction.

>>2654102
/g/ is thataway:
>>>/g/

>>2654081
How do you transfer porn, which is intrinsically tied up to the structure of your computer, to a flash drive?

>>2654073
You're the troll here, good sir.

>>2654102
>Meanwhile in [the future.]
mfw

>>2654105
You're right. I'm obviously a nutcase because I think its ridiculous that you can "upload" consciousness into a computer.

You, on the other hand assume it will occur, which makes you logical, realistic and reasonable.

>>2654122
4/10 for effort.

>>2654111
That's the stupidest thing I've read in awhile. Thanks for sharing!

>>2654111
>Theoretically, if we fully understood the ways in which all particles in the world interacted, we could predict the infinite.
Although I agree with most of your post, that sentence isn't exactly true, because of quantum mechanics and the uncertainty principle.

>>2654129

>you can "upload" consciousness into a computer.

Pic related. It might do some good.

On topic now, what does everyone else think about luddism and transhumanism? Do you think people are inherently, naturally future-shocked, and as we approach a third technological singularity (First one being the Industrial revolution and the second one being the mass usage of the Internet) luddite behaviour will pose an even greater threat to technological progress?

Discuss.

>>2654129
I wasn't trolling you religious retard, there is no qualitative difference between information on a computer and you brain. Stop confusing a physics problem with an engineering problem.

>>2654161
And there it is. You think I'm religious because I disagree with you on uploading consciousness from an organic brain with all the hormones and pH that is a HUGE factor in our consicousness, to a piece of silicon.

I've been an atheist since I was 10.

You seriously have no idea of what you're talking about. Your belief that we will eventually just upload people's consciousness into a machine is verging on religion. Moron.

>>2654141
meh quantum hurr durr higgs boson

Someday, we'll understand those things too, but, for now, it's not realistic to account for things like that.

>>2654156
No. A genuine luddite would not only pose no threat to a technological civilization, he wouldn't be able to function at all because the only possible way he could meet his needs is via the technologies he rejects.

It's gonna be fun when radical Christians start slowly starving to death because they refuse to get the credit chip they need to buy food.

for those of you that were confused by the "everything is information" post:
digital information is just a form of information
so are the DNA and cells
so are our thoughts
so are atoms and molecules
various waves are also information

also, the definition of a computer might be entirely different in the future

captcha: lifelong unciator

>>2653784

Holy shit saved.

That hit the nail on the head, thanks for posting.

>>2654185

>You think I'm religious because I disagree with you on uploading consciousness from an organic brain with all the hormones and pH that is a HUGE factor in our consicousness, to a piece of silicon.

>Silicon

There's your problem:

>>2654044

>Or replicated in a real-life, nanomechanical implementation of the brain?

Explain why, if simulating all these factors is impossible, crafting an artificial brain out of diamondoids is impossible.

>>2654156
Probably, there will be a lot of people who think being "natural" is a good thing. That's what it looks like the 3rd Deus Ex is partially about. Go to any singularity youtube video and it's full of conspiracy theorists, especially religious ones. It will be hard to convince people to go from using technology externally, to putting it in their body, because omgmarkofthebeast! I for one can' stand the naturalistic argument. Technology is the glory of humanity.

>>2654069

I want to introduce you to some investigation, also, you talk about physical structures as if they were magic, yet the physical structure of your brain changes as you read this, so there's nothing that special about it to make it irreconstuctible.

http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/sebastian_seung.html
http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/michael_merzenich_on_the_elastic_brain.html
http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/kwabena_boahen_on_a_computer_that_works_like_the_brain.html
http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/henry_markram_supercomputing_the_brain_s_secrets.html

At least watch the 1st one.

>>2654204
uh, no.

You're the one with the answers, and I'm the one being unreasonable, right?

YOU explain why simulating all these factors is possible. Lets hear it, it's the point of the thread, no?

Explain how you're going to simulate hormones, the organic structure of the brain, synapses, neurons, etc, in order to "move" someone's pre-existing consciousness "out" of the brain and "into" a computer.

Otherwise, you're spouting off your personal hopes, beliefs and opinions as some sort of inherent truth.

Which sounds a whole lot like religion to me.

>>2654205

Dresden Codak related.

>>2654216
No, I don't speak of physical structures as magic. I describe the physical attributes of the brain, such as neurons and synapses as being a part of our consciousness.

That isn't magic or magical. It's a fact.

Do you really think labeling something incorrectly makes your argument better? Christ you're terrible at this. Try again.

>>2654224
Because we already have working models of this exact system on a small scale?

Worst comes to worst, we have to do a direct physical simulation of the molecular structures involved, but that just makes the result more expensive, not impossible.

You don't have a terribly firm grasp on either computer science or neurology, do you?

>>2654239

Ok, I think the fist step to solve this is to define consciousness

>>2654241
You actually believe just making a model of someone's neurology will somehow create a duplicate memory from just the simulated structure alone?

If so, seriously?

If not, then how would you transfer the memory if it isn't done simply by simulating structure?

I still find it hilarious that none of you know how any of this is going to be done, but me being skeptical is unreasonable.

>>2654224

Because we have been using computers to make increasingly more complex simulations of our environment, from engineering a bridge to simulation shock diamonds out of the nozzle of the Shuttle.

The brain is not intangible, it's not incomprehensible. Just because we don't yet fully understand it in all of its complexity doesn't mean that we never will. So when we do, when we understand what goes in the brain, we will be able to run a simulation accounting for the many factors that take place in the brain. A simulation either virtual or an actual, physical, mechanical or biological replica of the brain.

Moreover, we have some simplistic models of neurons. As our knowledge expands we can add to them, and as our knowledge of the brain as a whole, too, expands along with computation capacity of silicon or carbon substrates, we will be able to take all of that information and build a working model of the brain, much like how we can synthesize proteins, DNA, molecules, et cetera.

>>2654252
You're making some important assumptions, here.

First, sure. If you perfectly simulate my neurology, the simulation will be exactly like me, memories and all.

In all likelihood, getting the required information to perfectly simulate my neurology will require the destruction of my existing neurology. That probably means death for me, but as far as outside observers are concerned, I've been transferred into the computer.

if a shuttle explodes in a simulation
do astronauts die

>>2654266
So you're going to simulate someone's personality.

Fine.

That isn't the same as transferring someone's consciousness FROM an organic brain to a nanomachine/computer/whatever word is the supposed to be used here.

>>2654276
But YOUR consciousness wasn't actually transferred.

It was COPIED.

This doesn't lead to YOUR immortality. It leads to your CLONE'S immortality.

>>2654298

The latter is a matter of somehow finding a way to do it fast enough, like laminating a functioning brain, keeping it working without major problems, and then suddenly BAM and it's transferred. The engineering feasibility of that can be disputed, but I remember hearing how the convulted mass of the brain is a convulted plane, so if you could fold it out while it's still working... Wait, disregard that.

I just skimmed by a bunch of posts arguing about uploading/exchanging body with a robot.

You know what all this stuff forgets? Feedback. Assume you could indeed transplant your brain into a robot or upload your brain into a computer and control everything as you could in biological form. The problem with this is that the mind/brain/self can not be separated from the body without suffering losses, they are one whole.

Trolling? Religious? Anti transhumanism? No sir.

I was under the same impression untill about two years ago, then I decided to take the ultimate test of this theory: inject Ketamine (did it a couple of times). It completely detaches your mind from your body.

You know what happened? Nothing. I just sat there, for 3 hours and more not moving. Being able to move, but not having any urge to. If you disconnect from the feedback of your biological body you colapse into your own mind and you are inert.

>>2654313
>>2654298

And this is when philosophical babbling and metaphysics run in, I rage and the thread is wasted.

>Is this a likely future /sci/?
It is inevitable.
>How far away or near transhumanism are we?
Transhumanism will take off when the human body becomes obsolete
>Would you "upgrade" yourself if you could?
If it becomes the best option for me
>Even if you're perfectly healthy?
Not likely, would refrain until I needed it.

So basically, genetic manipulation is the way to go?

>>2654346
lol. this whole thread is philosophical babbling.

listen to the people who think its automatic that we'll be uploading our consciousness, or implanting ourselves into immortal robots in the next 30 years.

i love how you quote the skeptical person as using philosophical babbling and metaphysics. sorry, but we haven't cured the common cold, but we're going to skip that step and be robots soon.

lol

>>2654373
You're skeptical in the same way people are skeptical of evolution and global warming. There's a point where skepticism itself isn't an argument.

this thread should probably be archived
the pinnacle of human argumentation

captcha: bustm shock

>>2654320
Uploading yourself into a robot isn't the same thing as sensory deprivation. You would still have stimuli, it would just be under different circumstances. You don't need your body, just some form of artificial stimuli.

>>2654348

>human body becomes obsolete

see my post: >>2654320

It can't become obsolete, because it is what makes you. The complex chemical reaction trying to minimize Gibbs free energy. There is no escaping it, you can however augment it.

It's like I'm really on a board with 16-19 year olds that want to put themselves aside from the rest by being "that science guy".

>>2654385
evolution and global warming can be backed up by data.

where's the data showing us transferring human consciousness. oh, the "future", right. the "future" will make it possible.

i'm skeptical, and you're religious.

>>2654385
What evidence have you presented? None. It's all wishful thinking.

>>2654401
I'm a skeptic of NON DATA.

I don't have to present data. YOU DO.

PROVE ANY OF THE SHIT YOU PEOPLE CLAIM IS GOING TO HAPPEN.

Oh, wait. You can't. You're relying on "science" to figure this stuff out, because herp-a-derp, that's what science does.

>>2654393

>some form of artificial stimuli
>some form artificial
>some form
>artificial

as in: disconnected, so no.

In the example I gave, the stimuli could be considered as "some form" and "artificial", although they were real. Still the mind collapsed into itself. I have no reason to believe (unless empirically proven otherwise) that any advanced technology can circumvent that.

You Sir, should inject Ketamine and learn, 1ml of standard solution will suffice.

>>2654395

If you think the human body can never become obsolete then you are "that science guy" that can't imagine the science of a thousand years from now.

>>2654373

So now a "particular" disease becomes amulti-field advancement barrier?
It's like saying you can't make cars because you can't breath under water.

Also, what I mean by "philosophical babbling" is the way people grab few words like "copy, clone, you, and emotions", and assume that the fact they mean different things, makes a discovery to unite these concepts inviable.

Also, we just considerate it a likely future, just as OP said, It's not automatic, but you have to admit we're advancing in that direction
>>2654216

>>2654410
go build a PC from scratch
oh wait
YOU HAVE TO BUY COMPONENTS FROM MANUFACTURERS

>>2654435
It isn't a multi-field barrier. It shows just how advanced we are in the field of understanding life itself. We're on the bottom rung of that ladder. We can't cure diseases yet, but we're going to soon be transferring consciousness from brain to machine.

Right.

The reason I'm in here skepticalling all over your deepest hopes and dreams is because that's what they are. Hopes and dreams.

Read through this thread. I've been told by someone that I'll be offered a chance at immortality.

And yet, we don't know very much about the brain itself, and we can't cure the common cold.

See the disconnect yet?

>>2654446
9/10 because that's hilarious without attempting to even figure out what your analogy alludes to, or just how idiotic it is. Please, continue.

>>2654431
Look up the Ganzfeld Effect. Cutting off your sight and hearing can cause hallucinations and a dissociative effect. When your brain has no stimuli it just makes up shit to fill in the gaps. That has nothing to do with your biological body at all. Your brain can be self-contained, all you need to do is replace your normal sight and hearing with an artificial way to see and hear.

>>2654467
that guy can prove what comes in the future as much as you can build computers from scratch

>>2654433

If the human body is obsolete so is the human. It will then be taken over by a machine running the human. That machine will then take the humans place, not the human that is being run by it.

Stop thinking mankind is so super awesome.

>>2654474

I didn't hallucinate, you don't hallucinate from ketamine in low doses.

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>this thread

>>2654522
Oh jesus fuck, this happened once. Sitting in a Subway and I see a girl reading The Singularity is Near just a couple of tables from me. AND SHE WAS FUCKIN' HOT.

I don't see the point of robotic limbs unless you lost them. We should really focus on vital organs if we want to live forever.

>>2654459
We know more about the brain every day.
The common cold, an argument you seem to like is actually not a "simple disease", and the fact we have to suffer it every year, doesn't make it common, actually it's a constantly mutating virus, that's why it's so complicated to heal it. Also, some researches are coming close to eliminate the viruses that cause the majority of common colds.
And don't forget the fact that we can actually cure a lot of diseases, thanks to recent discoveries and advancements.

See why we have hopes and dreams yet?

The idea "It isn't impossible to do just because I can't do it/don't know how to do it", is one of those that move science, so it's hard for me to understand why are you so reluctant to it.

>>2654320
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Sorry, I was going to post a serious refutation, but then I came to my senses.

>>2654529

... What, seriously? Dude, you should be dating that girl by now.

>>2654539

I'm still interested.

>>2654503
I've never tried it, but I went with Wikipedia's explanation of ketamine. But yeah, dissociation is caused by your brain not syncing with your senses. Prosthetic arms work and are almost at the level of feeling of your natural arms. Everything in your body is replaceable.

>>2654542
I'm socially awkward as fuck and I don't think I should hassle her while she's enjoying her sub and a book.

Yes yes, beta as fuck, don't care.

>>2654551

>Everything in your body is replaceable

Sure. But to have it fully connect with you it has to have a major biological component. And if you want to emulate all that biology, why not just use biology? Do you think a vat grown limb will feel the same as a robotic limb?

That's what this question is about.

>>2654536
I know what the common cold is. Doesn't change the fact that we can't cure relatively common diseases, in particular viruses, but that we should expect to be uploading our consciousness into immortal robots soon.

We can "cure" quite a few diseases. We can prevent many more. Science is great.

But notice how few we can cure out of the many that exist. To expect science to smash into and destroy everything in some glorious singularity that allows us to be immortal is just hopes and dreams.

Your hopes and dreams are wonderful. In fact, I share them. But half the people I've had the discussion with so far INSIST that it isn't just a hope and dream. That it is an inevitable fact, because, well, because...science.

As if science is some magical substance you can spread over problems to solve them. I've been labeled religious because I'm skeptical (lol) and told that I believe in magic because I don't see that science is just going to fix everything in the near future.

Ultimately, the people who think the singularity is upon us, and that we'll all be immortal in 50 years are close to practicing a type of science-related religion based on magic.

ketamine is the shit, second only to mdma

make sure you get the stuff they use for babies though because it's a lot smoother than the horse shit

ITT: Positivism

>>2654552

Meh, you never know until you try. We all have our social awkwardnesses, you have to break them now and then. When you get shot down, especially by a stranger, you realize how little it means to you as you walk on by.

Isn't the risk of getting shot down worth the possibility of an attractive girl caring about you and discussing the glorious transhuman future with you?

>>2654567
>we can't cure relatively common diseases, in particular viruses, but that we should expect to be uploading our consciousness into immortal robots

Knowing what I know about rhinoviruses and biotechnology, the latter is probably easier.

People seriously don't give those little RNA bastards enough credit.

>>2654582
>Isn't the risk of getting shot down worth the possibility of an attractive girl caring about you and discussing the glorious transhuman future with you?
Not really. It is equally likely she is only slightly interested in that and she has a whole lot of girly bullshit surrounding her. Relationships are something I've just stopped craving.

>>2654585
I give all diseases credit. They're extremely efficient and effective. Especially the ones that don't kill you. In particular, I find viruses extremely interesting, as they aren't "alive" in the classical sense, but function in similar ways to life once they enter a certain environment.

>>2654567
Now I realize our viewpoints are not that distant, as I don't actually believe in immortality as a "humanely" reachable concept.

And all I expect for the next century is this
>>2653397
, the point 3 to concrete.


Oh anonymous Internet conversations, why are you so complicated?

>>2654565
Metal and plastic don't decay, and can be replaced/ fixed a lot easier than biology.
>>2654567
It's ironic that you consistently use religion and magic as an insult, when you apparently are in a religion that doesn't let you tell the difference between science and engineering. We understand how the common cold works, and we understand the principles of mutation that allow it to develop resistance so quickly. Humans don't mutate quickly, especially compared to bacteria or viruses, which is why medicine has been so effective on humans. We know what we have to work with over a longer period of time, unlike viruses. The common cold is NOT in away comparable to a human. Also, you can't get it through your head what information is. Seriously, read any information theory or entropy book. Consciousness is just information to be transferred, we don't need to completely understand everything about biology immediately to transfer consciousness. You may be an atheist, but you're still clinging to the idea that humans are special, or that our brains are magic.

>>2654592

Meh, I can understand that. Other people are a hassle. Currently, I'm dating a girl who shares a lot of my artistic interests but not my intellectual ones, which is sad, because I know she has the capacity to.

All the bullshit's worth it when you see the glimmer in someone else's eyes of passion about the subject on which they speak, and you can relate.

But this is getting off topic and I've got a news shoot to prepare for anyway.

>>2654576
>Implying positivism or reductionism are false.

Check out Cybercity Oedo 808 (at least I think it was that one, feel free to correct).

In one of the three stories there is one about a guy who has been completely "replaced", only his brain and tongue remain.

He chews his tongue continuously, because that pain is the only thing that reminds him he is human.

>>2654624

What you are to yourself is more than the chemical/thermodynamical/physical/mathematical description thereof. And in the end, what you are to yourself is the only thing that matters.

>>2654597
If I were a tripfag, maybe some of the hostility could have been avoided. I'm an atheist, and I love science. But I am a skeptic of transhumanism. Especially the form that allows us to upload our consciousness into the internet like The Lawnmower Man.

Are we making advances in healthy right now? Yes. As a very healthy person, I hope to live a long time. My ultimate goal is to live long enough to at least get into Earth's orbit before I die. Immortality, or a 1000 year life would be fucking awesome. But I don't see it being offered to me or anyone alive. Like I said, we're still low on curing "simple" diseases and understanding consciousness.

>>2654602
Uh, the only reason I use "religion and magic as insults" is because both have been thrown at me, for being skeptical of uploading consciousness into a computer. In fact, re-read your own post moron. You're still labeling my as religious and believing in magic simply because you disagree with me.

I'm sorry, but YOU need to offer evidence that information exists just to be "transferred". I don't believe consciousness is "magic". In fact, dipshit, I've stated before that consciousness isn't just information, but PHYSICAL STRUCTURE. The brain itself. The size, length, width, makeup, etc, of the brain. The hormonal balances in the brain.

As I've stated repeatedly now, besides your magical, religious truism that transferring consciousness is "just an engineering problem", how do you make a memory? How do you TRANSFER a memory?

The shit most of you are talking about is COPYING. Not transferring. Copying.

And my original post, which I'm not going to search for at the moment, was addressing some religious, magic-believing moron who thinks that science will inevitably be able to TRANSFER consciousness. This belief is verging on religion.

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>>2654647
>The size, length, width, makeup, etc, of the brain
ie. data which can be uploaded and emulated

>>2654661
ie data which can be copied

Again, how do you TRANSFER it?

>>2654666
Slow upload.

And if people in /sci/ still don't know what it is and what it means, I'm so sorry for you.

>>2654666
>666
so you don't know either, eh satan?

>>2654679
Slow Upload. Right.

Go pick up your Nobel Prize, sir.

lol

>>2654647
Haha, I'm surprised such a mouth-breathing retard like you even knows how to use the internet, much less visits a science board. Storing information on a computer relies on the physical structure of the computer in some ways too, yet you consistently deny any analog between computers and brains. Our brain is just a biological computer. The effects of hormones can be replaced electronically. There;s nothing special about the physical structure of the brain, all information relies on physical structure. All we need to do is find out what purpose each structure serves and create an electronic analog. Hormones isn't an excuse, we've come a long way in biochemistry. You might as well believe in a soul.

>>2654689
So we're creating an electronic analog to simulate a brain .

Well, mouth-breathing functional illiterate. I'll ask again, since your reading comprehension is absolutely terrible.

How do you TRANSFER CONSCIOUSNESS?

Not COPY.

Transfer.

I'll wait, mouth-breather.

I kinda prommised me and my mates that if I reach (a natural) 100 years of age I would buy and mount a Chainsaw arm apendage.

so I'll have to wait and see if that could be a possibility

Self is an emergent property of being. Uploaded you will not be you.

>>2654688
>Consciousness has never happened.
>Slow upload as a concept isn't true.

>Bee's flight hasn't been 100% explained
>Fluid mechanics isn't real.

Holy shit you're retarded.

I think there are two types of posters in this thread: those who are getting started in science with much enthusiasm, and those who have been in science for a couple of years already.

I envy the first group

>>2654711
Because I made any of those arguments.

Strawman much?

Try again, moron.

The point is, slow upload is a valid concept, but we don't have the technology to make it happen yet. You seem to think that invalidates consciousness transfer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVdxLl3PMUI&feature=related

This is some entertaining and inspiring little video.

>>2654729
thank you. exactly my viewpoint.

god damn it if i see another thread on transhumanism or the singularity or any other technocratic fantasist nerd bullshit i am going to shit myself. this is /sci/ not /scifi/. you're like the inverse of primativists. they worship gaia you worship technology. both are retarded.

>>2654770
Well, engineering is /sci/ so predictions about future engineering projects are certainly relevant.

>>2654770

Isn't stuff like steroids and psychological drugs a huge step towards transhumanism? We are hacking our biological forms for increased performance.

>>2654808
it's not prediction, it's fantasy. narcissistic, pseudo-religious fantasy. i mean fuck, here millions of people are starving and here you're talking about how technology can enhance your own already privileged position. who cares about climate change, ecological crisis, overpopulation, resource shortages, or a myriad of other problems which science must address. it's all good because you're going to have robot arms like that one dude from mortal kombat. okay

>>2654888

asspained liberal detected.

>implying us discussing very distant theoretical is slowing down scientific progress overall.

>implying there are not any people working around the clock on the problems you stated.

>implying a robot arm would not be fuckwin for everyone in general.

>>2654888

Why do you assume transhumanists don't also advocate fixing those problems? Most transhumanists also talk about things like space exploration, fusion and other power sources, better materials development, life extension, and better quality of life, all of which, you will find, work towards fixing those problems you mention.

Stop thinking that transhumanists and futurists are just myopic nerds who only think about ONE subject. Just because we think that humanity will inevitably self-improve doesn't mean we don't care about other issues.

>>2654888
>future mustn't be good because present isn't great
And yet the suffering of people keeps decreasing all the time.

Sure there are drops here and there, but on the whole, humans have never had it so good.

Sounds more like you're one of these people that can't accept optimism or good news because you have been focusing all your attention on bad news and that has made you a pessimist.

Wake up and smell the flowers, pessimism is bad for your health.

>>2654888
So the west must drop everything it's doing, all theoretical physics experiments, all "fun" technologies just to save the 3rd world from itself? You don't realize how selfish that sounds that we can't improve our lives because somebody in the middle of nowhere has a shitty life? I have money, I donate to charity. Other than that, I don't care about starving kids in Africa. I don't care about the climate, or the environment. I want to be immortal, and travel among the stars, not working in some shitty forest planting trees. I want to do resource on enhancing intelligence and strength, not wasting my time doing science to save the "planet." These aren't fantasies, these are goals. Saving the environment is postponing the inevitable. We should focus on immortality first,then you can worry about global warming all you want. The environment is irrelevant compared to augmenting the human body.

>>2654944
>>2654953
>>2654969
...wow

>>2654888
Not who you were talking to.
I always find it funny that people immediately resort to the whole "third world" argument when discussing the singularity/transhumanism, which is a straw-man and doesn't address the likelihood that a technological singularity will occur in the future regardless.

FACT: Human societies and cultures have never been equal in terms of wealth or technology.

Guess what, they likely never will be in the future either. The most likely scenario in my mind is that the wealthiest, most advanced civilizations will eventually attain this horizon of high technology and diverge from the rest of the world, leaving the poor and underdeveloped behind.

No it's not a pretty picture. No it's not ideal. But that's always how evolution has worked isn't it? Populations are isolated one way or another and they begin to speciate.

>>2655031
Nah, they would probably forcefully deport the poors to space colonies to make earth a pleasure resort.

>>2655031

>No it's not a pretty picture. No it's not ideal. But that's how evolution has worked isn't it?
This.

Brofist good sir.

We gonna archive this?

>>2655046
brofist back you silly namefag

>>2653801
That was already developed.

>>2655064
Proof?

>>2654969
basically everyone thinks like this but you get points for honesty

i fucking hate the hand-wringing brigade who sit in their comfortable little societies with all their fucking luxury and make like they give a fuck about the millions of people dying of poverty EVERY DAY

fuck the third world, that's what we all think and the sooner we acknowledge that the sooner we'll ACTUALLY be able to make a difference to their lives.

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>>2655031

Fuck... I couldn't have phrased that better myself.

Though I kinda disagree that they'd leave everyone else behind; they'd be ahead of the curve, but the new and better would come to all nations eventually.

>>2655125
Maybe. That would be nice, but I'm not under the illusion that everyone would want to augment themselves. Even if a proliferation of advanced augmentation technology were to occur, sub-populations across the world would also react against this change.

>>2655181
To compare it to something, I guess you could think of the book Brave New World. Not to say that the society would be the same by any means, but that there would be an incredible gap in terms of development between these societies.

>>2655181
>>2655189

But such changes would be by choice, not by lack of opportunity, at least at first. Their descendents would pay for their ignorance, not their lack of opportunities. That's still unfair, but the fault would lie with their ancestors, not the transhumans.

Haters gonna hate.

>>2655364
Everyone just seems to assume that all future technology is non-biological. What about all the wonderful new glands we could graft in ourselves?

Heat sinks are always related.

Fore reference:
http://www.mediafire.com/?thxblulj4ic4cyp
http://www.mediafire.com/?s6022bni72a5mnd
http://www.mediafire.com/?7d46o1enth2boe5
http://www.mediafire.com/?4m8h968i5kh2j54
http://www.mediafire.com/?937wkefn3nhz6y3
http://www.mediafire.com/?zax9f69ehq06ao4
http://www.mediafire.com/?nid7b56ssk06xb6
http://www.mediafire.com/?pb0k31oop6iukh1
http://www.mediafire.com/?5z1wzsbjq4bs5f1

>>2655364
orly

>>2655454
riiiiiiiiiight

>>2655454

Biology is so fickle; evolution's lingering leftovers hurt us constantly, and the fact that we're compatible with the rest of the natural world to an extent that allows it to harm us while making us dependent on it makes biology a poor future for us.

Sure, what we start out with may, at first, merely equal nature, but we'll surpass it in less than an eyeblink of what it took for blind selection to guide us to this point. Best of all, it will be for our benefit.

>>2655569
Given the diversity of humanity, it's almost certain that some will choose to stay meat even when it becomes easy to transfer into composites and quantum circuitry.

So why not optimize what we have? What you said sound to me like good arguments FOR giving people changed biologies.