/sci/ - Science & Math

>inb4 skynet

>>2606135

skynet already runs wallstreet. see, last year's flash crash.

>>2606127
I believe, as far as we know, communism is the best system, the problem is corruption always fucked up things and turned the system to a tyranny before it turns to communist
With an AI things should works fine

>>2606127

It is trivial to show that a central planner can achieve any outcome they please under perfect information.

The question is, can your AI guarantee perfect information?

I won't trust no damn AI

>>2606150
Even if communism was run without corruption it would still less technologically advanced then a capitalist one.

Competition advances technology bro

The AI would invariably be corrupt, even if it were non aware and programmed specifically not to be.

Standard economic theory would say "No".

This is really a question in Hayekian economics- He argued that proper allocation of capital by a central authority isn't possible, because allocation of capital requires perfect knowledge of local conditions, and a 100% complete understanding of every person's job. The best way we know of right now to make use of this local knowledge is to have a market system, delegating as many decisions as possible out to the periphery, avoiding central planning.

This means the AI would not only need to be smart, it would also have to have perfect knowledge of local conditions. This would be akin to using an AI for weather predictions, which also has limitations, since weather prediction similarly requires perfect knowledge of all local conditions.

The only way I think the AI could get enough knowledge of local conditions would be to have it actually do all the work as well, so that it knows what each job entails. So your plan would also require having the computer run robots that do all the work in the world. That would be the only way I can think of that you could get all humans to be objectively and fairly wealthy.

For a period of time, it did, and it was successful before it was destroyed in a US-backed coup.

Google Project Cybersyn

A lot of people say communism looks good on paper but doesn't work in real life. Am I the only person who thinks communism looks terrible on paper too? Das Capital was pretty good, I understand the criticism of capitalism, but the Communist Manifesto, ugh.

>>2606150
If we wanted equality, sure. Communism would be the best system.

Do we want equality? Would you be fine with the retard with the <90 IQ having the same amount of power and say that you have?

>>2606163
Collaboration advance it more

yessssssssssssssssssssss

Depends on the constraits of the AI. You're inevitably going to run up to the question of just how independent it is - if it's truly independent, then how can it understand human needs? Human needs would have to be thrown in on some level, by a human, and that would transfer power away from the AI to the programmer.

Perhaps the ideal system would be to give people 'votes' on what they want distributed and how much, registered through a computer system, that then feeds into the AI and thus gives all the power to the people, while the AI simply decides on prioritization. But, strictly speaking, isn't that accomplishable today?

PROJECT CYBERSYN
Communism as run by a computer. It worked but then the US had to fuck things up.

>>2606169
I would love it
I think we should live together, not against each other

>>2606165

>Standard Economic Theory
>Hayek

Pick one.

>>2606170
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHA

how naive ye are


If we where at that level we would not need an AI so that we did not have corruption

>>2606182
>Perhaps the ideal system would be to give people 'votes' on what they want distributed and how much, registered through a computer system, that then feeds into the AI and thus gives all the power to the people, while the AI simply decides on prioritization. But, strictly speaking, isn't that accomplishable today?

I was going to answer that, peoples tell the computer what they want, the computer estimate the value of their desires and offer them in the most equitable way possible

>>2606191

Theres a difference between equal opportunity and equality. In my opinion pure equality would be an awful system.

>>2606167
communism is slavery by definition AND it turns everything it touches to shit

if my country implemented full blown communism i'd go criminal in an instant

the problem isn't the leader. the problem is free will. a communist society, in the way it was intended, cannot exist when free will exists.

The best way to determine the needs of the people is to use a currency to track consumer trends. If an AI were in charge of running the economy, it would work best if every citizen were given a "credit card", from there it could track our spending habits and adapt as the times change.

>>2606216
Could you devellop?
For me, a total equality should be a goal for humanity

No because people make A.I.

>>2606230
I am better then Frat boys and rappers

I will never admit otherwise

>>2606211
I don't envy the programmer though. With my luck they'd hire indians and I'd say that I'd like green beans and steak and I'd just get like 50 cans of green beans to last me a month.

You guys are forgetting the main reason why communism doesn't work
If everyone earns the same wage there is no incentive to work harder

>>2606221

Thankfully, we'd have camps to take care of people like you.

No, central control is inefficient and can't calculate.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_calculation_problem

>>2606127
yeah bro
i had the same idea an year ago

>>2606150
>I believe, as far as we know, communism is the best system,
What in the fucking shit.

>>2606243

Empirical evidence?

Historical attempts at central planning failed at the top, not the bottom.

>>2606240
No, you say you like green beans, the software increase the value of desires['greenbeans'] and increase the production of greenbeans until the production reach the desire of green beans

>>2606252
>implying it isn't
sure is brainwashed fascist in here

Learn a thing or two before you post:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRMQ6h19bWc

Humans would reject any scenario where everyone is equal because people are corrupt by nature. You can't have perfect equality when there are people who feel the need to advance. Unfortunately this feeling is hardwired.

>>2606246

There's a reason no one could express that in standard economic theory.

Any undecidability/complexity results seem to transfer from planning to market quite trivially.

>>2606230

like I said earlier, in an ideal society everyone should be given equal opportunity. However, people who are talented and successful should gain more from the system than neckbeards who sit in their parents basements all day. To equate the two is a massive injustice and should not be to goal of society.

>>2606243
It's false
I've seen a community where people share everything, these people worked 80 hours a week because they wanted to increase their living conditions AND the living conditions of their friends

>>2606174
The checks and balances of democratic governments were invented because humans themselves realized how unfit they were to govern themselves. They needed a system, yes. An industrial age *machine*.

>>2606267
That's why communism relies on the military to beat those people up

>>2606265
>say communism is a great idea
>call me brainwashed and tell me to learn a thing or two
LOL

Every single time large-scale communism has been attemped, it has IMMEDIATELY devolved into an authoritarian regime. Every single damn time. Real winners, too: Stalin, Mao, Castro, Pol Pot, the Kim family...

>>2606271
?
Free trade systems CAN calculate.

>>2606283

>Stalin found Russia working with wood ploughs and left it armed with atomic piles

>>2606277
I don't dispute that (not the guy you replied to), but the system in inherently unstable to power grabs.

>>2606283
Stalin: No communism
Mao: No communism
Castro: No communism
Pol Pot: No communism
the Kim family: No communism

Try again

A nation run by computers without any human oversight would rapidly fall prey to people who knew how to manipulate and exploit the system.

>>2606288
>Stalin ran the country into the ground devoting it entirely to a war machine, slaughtering millions as cannon fodder and millions more in witch hunts

>>2606286

Assume the calculation problem cannot be solved by a single turing machine, therefore it can't be solved by any finite number of machines because of the robustness of the RE class...

profit and wanting of success drive innovation. The day everyone is made equal is the day inventions cease to be created. Unless you're planning on having the computer do all the inventing, in which we're basically domesticated farm animals, who just sit around all day and let the computer solve scientific mysteries.

>>2606288
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPeRD4P578U
STALIN

>>2606289
For sure but now, imagine if, instead of no power, they worked with a computer getting the power telling them what they should do to increase their lifes

>>2606300
No, it's not about that. Central control systems throw away all the distributed inputs and low-level feedbacks that make calculation possible.

>>2606294
Those can be blamed on the US.

>>2606302
So a global profit isn't a profit?

>>2606260
Well yeah, ideally, but the initial release, with my luck, would be rushed and I'd end up with some lazy ass motherfucker shitting some code out before it was properly written.

I'm really more interested in how this would work economically. International trade would be a tricky field under this kind of system, you'd have to have one clever motherfucker running the central bank.

>>2606306
>Zeitgeist
No. Computers and designed, built, programmed, monitored, and maintained by HUMANS. There is no such thing as handing control over to a computer.

Not until we have strong AI, at least, with armed robotic guards.

>>2606310
Full fucking retard.

>>2606315
Since we don't let microsoft working on the AI it should not happen

>>2606302
I for one wouldn't mind being a domesticated farm animal, so long as I still had the freedom to do what I like. Having computers take care of all the detail work for me doesn't sound like a bad fate.

>>2606323
>I for one wouldn't mind being a domesticated farm animal,
You already have your wish. Enjoy being exploited.

Cuba is pretty much as close as you can get to communism
Everyone has food, everyone has healthcare, people still become doctors and engineers and such for some reason, everyone is educated...
And yet everyone drives old beat up cars, eats the same thing and don't have much of a choice in what they get for their appliances and such

>>2606326
If Apple ended up running the entire world, I would laugh my god damn fucking ass off. I think I'd end up just like poor Chrysippus.

At least I'd die with a really sleek interface in front of me.

>>2606338
We're talking about computers, apple don't make computers, apple make toys

>>2606308

A centralised system is capable of simulating a distributed system in a virtualised environment....

>>2606343
Toys that have very sleek interfaces though!

>>2606334
>And yet everyone drives old beat up cars, eats the same thing and don't have much of a choice in what they get for their appliances and such
Most electronics were entirely banned and confiscated until recently. I guarantee you that the rich locals had them anyway.
http://www.economist.com/node/10881009
>The government is able to widen access to consumer electronics because Venezuelan aid has allowed it to overhaul the electricity grid. Officials also know that the grid will not immediately be overwhelmed: monthly wages average $17. For those who don't receive remittances from relatives abroad, electronic gadgets will remain unaffordable. Even for those who do they will be expensive: they will only be available in state-owned shops that apply a mark-up of around 200%.
Oh yeah, that sounds fucking fantastic. Sign me up for communism.

Those saying that there is no incentive for progress >imply that people who cause progress do it for money and that those people would suddenly hate science if all our basic needs were met.

After the military coup on September 11, 1973, the control centre was destroyed.

it must be decentralized

>>2606349
Has the concept of efficiency even CROSSED your fucking mind? You just suggested creating a full simulation of a FAKE GLOBAL ECONOMY, which isn't tightly connected with reality anyway!

Just keep the REAL one, mkay?

>>2606127
Yes.
Unlike every communist system so far that have been entirely based upon personal bios of powertripping leaders an AI could be an entirely uncaring rulet that ironincally gives the population everythin it deserves.

But good fucking luck gettin an AI into a leadership position. Maybe if you give whaton an an M60 and reprogram him to for military strategy instead of jeopardy!

>>2606388
me here again, I'm drunk as a motherfucker and shouldn't post.

I for one became an atheist because I DIDN'T want some omniscient, omnipotent being watching over me. It sounds like you're trading one god for another. Will it send me to cyberhell if I disobey?

>>2606394
>Will it send me to cyberhell if I disobey?
Yes. But they'll call it prison. Or maybe re-education.

Provided the means to run and maintain the AI does not compromise a significant proportion of the populations living standard, yes it could work.

>>2606388

The AI wouldn't have to be the President. It could just take the place of the Chairman of the Federal Reserve for instance. Imagine it...instead of 12 board of governors deciding how to run the economy, it would be 12 super computers...

The problem is the people who have access to programming the AI. They might decide that they want to be a little more equal than everyone else.

>>2606369

I'm pretty sure it can be done in polynomial time. We're talking about a system of linear equations, here. Not 3-CNF-SAT.

>>2606416
Not with a script system used for modifications and good main core for the AI
The only problem are hackers and this problem is easy to fix

>>2606416

it would be computer scientists and economists, not the politicians

A p2p app for posting ideas add voting on them
> app runs localy
> needs no dns
> can use ip4 or ip6 on darknet or wireless mac addr localy
> has public privet key encrypt
> can attach any file to post .torrent .mp4 .jpg .txt
> count vote localy and forward all data to all peers for cross check
> can priortize posts by time of post or number of yes votes etc

One earth
One people
No government

>>2606421
>implying the calculation capacity of every business decision and financial algorithm in the world is a "system of linear equations"
Protip: The system in inherently nonlinear, and so fucking huge that you'd need to subvert a large portion of the world's energy budget just to run the central control.

As usual, people who propose radical solutions underestimate the problem.

Every time you go to the store and choose what food to buy, you are calculating. Every time a business takes the sum of feedback from all its calculating customers over months and decides what to restock, how much, what to stop restocking, what new products to buy, they are calculating.

And it just keeps going up and up. Billions of human value-judgments, every day. And you think you can just say "here, you do it" to a central computer?

And if you don't get one of the biggest problems, computers don't make value judgments. They follow the metrics (value-judgments) that they are given.

>>2606448
>Reduce all value-judgments to binary yes/no
It's not a bad idea for a radical neo-democracy. But it doesn't replace the market.

>>2606451

>Protip: The system in inherently nonlinear

Citations needed.

Careful, hotshot. If you make your economy too complex you will prove that individual agents are incapable of functioning in it.

>>2606438
WHY THE FUCK ARE YOU TRUSTING THE SYSADMIN

>>2606476
Well if I'm the sysadmin I'll make me as equal as anyone else
And I believe I'm not the only one

>>2606448
But we're not "one people." We're a society of individuals, what this is is barely above mob rule. People place so much emphasis on the "united" aspect, but when someone dissents they get rolled over by the collective. You guys are trying to unite something that's inherently not combinatorial. .

>>2606474
You're fucking kidding me, right?

>>2606483
>You can trust comrade Lenin
You're being really, really naive here. Please, please take a lesson from history. We've been down this road before.

>>2606323
You know why North Korea is a derelict shithole? US sanctions and embargoes.

>>2606490
>Lenin was a bastard so everyone are bastards

>>2606483
It only takes a handful of assholes to seize the reins of power once you've gathered them all in one place. How can you look at the history of centralized control and not see this? Or even more directly, the history of attempts at communism?

>>2606488

Not at all, no. Standard economic theory tells us awfully little about planned economies. The Calculation Problem stems from Austrian Economics and hence, unsurprisingly, no one gave a satisfactory formal statement of it to date. Because Austrian Economists cannot into Mathematics.

>>2606497
And Stalin, and Mao, and Pol Pot, and the Kim family, and Castro

It doesn't matter how many good people you have. It only takes a few powermongers, and a few people with guns who like being in the "more equal" crowd.

>>2606469
replace the market with bitcoin

>>2606501
Why gather them all in one place? It's a terrible idea.
>>2606486
I believe he was referring to the elimination of nationalism and the nation-state. I don't think anybody's suggesting a unity of ideology.

>>2606503
see
>>2606308

You can't efficiently centralize a system as large and distributed as the global economy. Or do you have a proposal for hierarchical control at smaller scales, passing information to higher levels?

>>2606267
It's natural for us to be corrupt? When we are taught since the moment we are able to walk to take a competitive approach to everything we do in society? I believe that it's a learned behavior in 90% of people, the other 10% being people with brain defects. And if not that, who's to say we can't change? With proper early social education (and hell, adulthood too) that emphasises on teamwork with the good of the whole in mind, people don't have to be corrupt. The "human nature" argument is the biggest fucking copout I've ever heard. 9/10 for making me reply, see me after class.

>>2606525
>Why gather them all in one place? It's a terrible idea.
>Everyone ITT is talking about giving complete power to a central computer, with no ideas on how to keep assholes out

Bitches don't know about Celine's Third Law.

>It is only through honest politicians trying to change the world through laws that true tyranny can come into being through excessive legislation. Corrupt politicians simply line their own pockets. Honest idealist politicians cripple the people's freedom through enormous amounts of laws.

You honestly think some magical computer that rules over every aspect of our lives and controls the entire economy is going to be a good thing? You've been playing way too much Deus Ex.

>>2606533
LOL
Even you say there's the 10%, and think there wouldn't be anyone seizing power?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_the_Soviet_Union#Membership
>In 1986, the Communist Party of the Soviet Union had over 19 million members or approximately 10% of the USSR's adult population.

>>2606529

Well you can start by taking a look at http://www.macs.hw.ac.uk/~greg/publications/ccm.IJUC07.pdf for an algorithm to run a one million industry economy on a desktop computer, but really: it is fucking trivial in standard economic theory. And non-standard economic theory is no help here either because then we suddenly lose our formal arguments in favour of the market system.

>>2606546
One of the end-game options was to crash the entire global system. Not my favorite (damn fatalist Luddites), but oh well.

>>2606533
Totally agree, I never wanted to have more than others, I never wanted to hurt someone to take advantage, I was always happy with what I had (even when I was sleeping under a bridge) and I've always been happy for him when someone was getting something I wanted
And I'm pretty sure I owe it to my education

>>2606551
so if anon implemented collaborative governance
>>2606448
we could do it with minorty

>>2606556
Oh THIS is where you're getting the linear-equations thing from.

You can't model the world with linear equations. I'll read the paper, but I'm already certain of this. You can't model the fucking three-body problem with linear equations.

You see, YOU'RE the one trying to use "traditional economics".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complexity_economics#Comparison_with_traditional_economics

>>2606558
I hated how you had to choose between global communism ruled by Helios, or global capitalism ruled by the Illuminati. I think the real question is not why humans have to argue collectivism vs. individualism, but why do humans always need to have a ruler? God statist governments, A.I., Society or the Commune. You would think after all the trouble we've had with corruption in rulers, for ONCE we would try to just take care of ourselves. We don't need market planning.

>>2606561
Oh, I'm sure you and I are fine, but we aren't the problem. I'm not about to adopt a socioeconomic system that is even MORE unstable to dick-moves.

Cool story bros
You're all still missing a little detail
HOW WOULD YOU MAKE PEOPLE WORK?

>>2606582
Yes.

>>2606588

Yes, I'm using traditional economics because it has some rigour to it. As interesting as complexity economics is I find it ridiculous to use that as a measuring stick when the internal issues of the field haven't been ironed out yet. Same reason we stick to QM/Relativity rather than strings.

>>2606611
You're not arguing for sticking to QM. You're arguing for sticking to Aristotelian physics. It's not remotely able to actually model the world, no matter how nice it looks on paper.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aristotelian_physics

Or are you arguing that "traditional economics" using linear models have predictive power?

>>2606604
This is the worst argument in favor of free markets. The whole "Force people to either work or starve, it's the only way to keep society together" thing has been shown again and again to simply not be true.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrkrvAUbU9Y

And yes, there are good arguments in favor of free markets. Very, very good ones.

>>2606604
The argument is that self-motivation will be sufficient, especially in an era of heavy automation.

This area isn't my main objection anyway.

>>2606294
>Castro:no communism
What do you mean no communism?

>>2606625
This, the argument of motivation isn't worth bringing up. It's a waste of time at best, and an false appearance of weakness to the idea of free markets at worst.

Few things can hurt a good cause like a bad argument for it.

>>2606618

What? No. I'm not advocating Adam-Smith economics but GE theory with extensions. Until I see one with better mathematical foundations I won't budge.

>>2606630
I mean cuba isn't communist

>>2606630
It's the "No True Scotsman" fallacy. If he doesn't like the example, it doesn't count.

But the REAL problem is that communism quickly devolves into dictatorship. That is the natural progressing, given the distribution of human behaviors. There are more than enough assholes.

>>2606607
i was thinking of slash code for the base
then add votes etc
you have anything to add

>>2606640
Fair enough. I can respect a desire for evidence and correlation with reality.

>>2606641
Omg, yes it is

>>2606650
(cont)
And I apologize if I was abrasive, but people telling me (I'm in physics) that the world can be represented a large set of linear equations pisses me right the fuck off. No, it can't. But we can solve linear equations, so we pretend it's far, FAR more valid as a tool than it really is.

>>2606651
No it isn't, communism is an anarchist ideology, in cuba there's a government
You sir, are confusing socialism and communism

>>2606646
is the project open or just starting

>>2606673
Yes, communism is inherently statist. Marx even called it a dictatorship of the proletariat. The problem is, whenever you put "the people" in charge, the meaning of people changes to whatever you want it to be. There's a reason why communist states always turn into a cult of personality. Group minds are always persuaded by charisma, not rationality. Leaders emerge naturally in any collective society. Forsaking individualism always leads to a cult of personality, and society as a whole encourages mindless worship, whether that society is well intentioned or not. Social engineering IS coercion.

>>2606651
Fuck off, it isn't.

The people aren't politically free nor are they in control of their workplaces and running them in a democratic style of affairs. Nor is the wealth distributed around equally and there is still a ruling class. Not socialism. Never was. Never will be unless the people living in Cuba rise up and actually do something to move towards something that resembles socialism.

>>2606646
A quasi-free-market system that redistributes wealth from the rich to the working class and poor, automatically, through an algorithm. Think of it as a sort of distributed Sweden, running on your computer.

Also, a currency with inflation directly tied to the creation of sustainable energy generation capacity.

>>2606687
>>2606646
>>2606607
>>2606582
>>2606448
are you trollin

>>2606712

I'm no optimist, myself, but this stuff is worth experimenting with.

>>2606663

In any realistic model of an economy it is exceedingly difficult to obtain results for any economic system (even market economics), so I personally get irate when people jump to classical theory to prove all the nice things about markets then to experimental economics to tell us why planned economies are bad. It's just inconsistent.

>>2606717
>>2606712
where can i contribute who is doing this

>>2606687
1. Create a SourceForge page with a mission statement.
2. Get it linked on http://globalguerrillas.typepad.com/
3. Get it linked on much bigger sites, such as Wired, BoingBoing, Reddit, etc...
4. ??????
5. MASSIVE WIN

>>2606711

You can't "directly tie" inflation to anything. It's a market force that is only indirectly controlled by government action and not all that effectively.

>>2606753
inb4 world independence day

>>2606448
Who handles voter registration?

got some potential names
>>2606753
anoconect
onepeople
digitalbush
egypt

>>2606820
could use comunity regestration of public key
if i know you and you give me your public key i say your vote counts times over 9000 people trust net could devlop

what stopes westboro baptist church from making 10 keys per person is that must publish them to be valid and then you just dont validate keys that are invalid

Dear votefags, even if you could get people's actual ordinal desires from this vote, you still would have no mechanism to determine HOW to produce these things. The mechanism for pricing resources in the absence of a marketplace is much much more important than what kind of fucking encryption the votes have.

We're talking about the feasibility of a moon landing, you're bickering about how long the Astronauts should wear their hair.

>>2606929
anonymous just hates competition in the troll Olympics

>>2606931
>The mechanism for pricing resources in the absence of a marketplace is much much more important than what kind of fucking encryption the votes have.

Who's to say that we're not developing a quasi-free-market system? A sort of distributed Sweden, so to speak, as I said earlier in the thread?

Oh, right, everybody else in the thread who is for this would rather make a distributed Stalin.

Well, shit.

>>2606929
>>2606885
>>2606820
so i would publish my key on face book then my frinds could validate it if thairs is valid and if sombody cheats all keys in that tree are void of trust and not a vote
>>2606931
Astronauts should be bald up & down hair burns in oxygen

>>2606970
Because in a quasi free market, you don't need a system for people to vote on what they want produced. That's only necessary if you're going to have non-market production of goods.

Anyway, ITT: radicals have no humility or understanding of the world

so we vote
1 op is a fag
2 stalin is a fag
3 money are fag

>>2607013
>Because in a quasi free market, you don't need a system for people to vote on what they want produced. That's only necessary if you're going to have non-market production of goods.
>a system for people to vote on what they want produced

I missed something important when I skipped the middle section of this thread, didn't I?

>Anyway, ITT: radicals have no humility or understanding of the world

Making proposals as to the big problems in the world, even when you're not really qualified to make them, should not be considered a lack of humility. Refusing to see the possible flaws of these proposals, on the other hand, should. It's important that everybody retain the ability to admit that they're wrong.

Just making sure we're on the same page here.

Define "run"

You mean distribute resources?


How is going to keep me from doing the bare minimum I need to get my cut?

Or keep me from stealing from the system any chance I get?

I think a computer controlled communistic society could work. However, instead of giving everyone equal wages, the computer should optimize wages based on job demand and job difficulty. If everyone wants to sign up to be, for example, a truck driver, then make the pay really low until nobody wants to be one. If nobody wants to be a meat slaughter-house worker, then make the pay really high until more people want to sign up. In this way, nobody is forced into labor, rather the computers create available jobs and send applications to unemployed/people looking to change jobs. It's also perfectly fair, even though the wages are different for different people, people doing shitty jobs get paid more. I suppose if someone didn't want to work at all they could be given a really low wage, or at least a variety of job offers and a minimum amount of time to sign up for one before being exiled.

Of course jobs like lawyers, scientists, doctors, engineers, etc. might be hard to judge the wage. I suppose people could vote on that. Or maybe jobs that require years of education have a higher wage anyway since people might not want to go through higher education.

>>2606294

Communism can work guise srsly it just never been done.


Everything that has come before and proclaimed to be communism has been no true communist entity.

>>2607060
>Communism can work guise srsly it just never been done
YES IT FUCKING HAS

>>2607059
You have no understanding of the complexity of the system you're proposing.

>>2607045
tell me the flaws in distributed collaborative governance and then i`ll listen

>>2607066

Were a few enclaves where people voluntarily choose to live under the system because it supported their ideology.

And for how long at that.


free market Exploitation has had century's to prove its self and it has worked well.

>>2607071

Yes of course. But I do believe it would work better than equal wages for all and forcing people to do labor. People would get to choose whatever job they wanted.

>>2607075
>>2607075


Simple

I won't work as hard for an even share.

I'll half ass everything and do what I can to make it appear as if I'm working to get my share and the moment I can get more then my share I will do that as well.

This is a global caliphate of terrorists

>>2607092
But if you don't even want equality, which is the stated reason for communism generally, then why are you throwing away the market system? You're throwing the baby out and not the bath water.

>>2607100
>I'll half ass everything and do what I can to make it appear as if I'm working to get my share and the moment I can get more then my share I will do that as well.

how is that diff than any boss ever
they smile and do nothing but cheat are you a boss

Communism will never work
The reason why it will never work is because people don't care about necessities. They already have them. They want stuff.

>>2607121
lol, you've never had a job, have you?

>>2607122
Correction: they want stuff that other people can't afford so they can feel superior.

What if *everyone* had mansions and luxury cars home theaters and swimming pools etc etc. THE HORROR!

>>2607122
no they want sex pay then with that fag

>>2607134
>What if *everyone* had mansions and luxury cars home theaters and swimming pools etc etc. THE HORROR!
That'd be awesome

>>2607134
>>2607143
*ahem*

>>2607121

Wat?


No, I've worked with competent bosses and incompetent bosses, and there is a huge difference.

I'm starting to smell something that reeks of angsty teen and suburbia

>>2607134

hahahahahahahahah

you'r projecting.

yes people use wealth as a display of social status that doesn't also mean that people don't value expensive items for their luxury outside of the social clout it bestows.


but at any rate who cares?


Does the fact that wealthy people exist erode the quality of my life ? Or does their perception of material superiority mean that I have to internalize their feelings and consider myself inferior?

>>2606836
>>2606753
you still here did you name your "project" yet

>>2607122
In what world do you live?
Because in my world 2/3 peoples don't have necessities and, like each last days of month I'm going to eat one meal every two days
So now, go fuck yourself and die in a terrible pain

>>2607196
Maybe you should buy food before getting a computer with internet?

>>2607205
I had my computer for free
And I don't pay for internet

>>2607196
are you fat?

>>2607227
1m75, 55kg, I don't think I'm fat...

>>2607196
Maybe they should let the market operate more freely in those countries so the bright people of the country can have their shackles removed and be free to create wealth for them and their countrymen, like in Botswana

>>2607238
>Implying my country isn't in the TOP 5 on the list of countries by GDP
Free market is a deep shit, economy is a deep shit, we have to stop all this shit before the whole world collapse

>MVP, Boxxer, Nestea out
>SanZenith playing well

IS IT FUCKING OPPOSITE DAY IN KOREA