/sci/ - Science & Math

more likely is the chinese pack their soldiers into the containers and arrive trojan horse style one morning in all of our ports

we can't nuke our own cities

there might be a real cost to all that free shit after all, eh?

And yet nothing happens... it's almost as though there's no such thing as rogue terrorist organizations hell bent on our destruction isn't it?

Why would I be scared of a threat that does not exist merely because if a threat did exist it would have one extremely unlikely potential method of attacking me?

>>2583474
Thankfully they're poor and lacking in competent scientists and engineers.

I'm actually surprised no one has tried to sneak a nuke into someone's harbor yet. It's a cheap, reliable, and hard to trace delivery system.

>>2583445
>derp
>herp derp

>herp derppppp

>sage

>>2583481
maybe because building a nuke takes an entire coutnry decades and billions of dollars. assuming Team USA doesnt bomb their ass back the the stoneage first.

>>2583479
Maybe you should ask the department of homeland security. They consider ports to be one of the most likely delivery methods of a WMD, and are spending huge amounts of cash trying to figure out how to secure them.

>>2583445
Such is life. No use worrying about something we can't do anything about, just gotta keep on keepin' on.

OP is right

it's just a matter of time

we have difficulty considering it because the consequences are so monumental

>>2583489
I think you mean TEAM AMERICA, communist.

>>2583489

>implying somebody can't just buy one from the black market

>>2583500
>implying this is a james bond movie.

OMG SAVE ME SAVE FROM DEM TERRORIZTZ

LAWDY


CALL HOMELAND SECURITY

MORE FUNDING FOR THE MILITARY!!!!

RAISE MY TAXS!!

TAKE IT FROM EDUCATION

JUST SAVE GUBERMINT

I'LL GLADLY TAKE AN ANAL PROBING 20 TIMES A DAY EVERY DAY ANY TIME A CROSS
ANYTHING THAT CAN BE PERCEIVED AS OR DEEMED A BORDER!!!

it is inevitable

they probably have technology that goes way beyond what we're aware of

but i can't see the powers who be holding it off forever


question for us is are we prepared for the consequences? well first, what are the consequences?

>>2583500
Maybe if you want a shitty Russian nuke with a tamper that has, in all likelihood, been replaced with vodka.

>>2583489
These days it doesn't. Russia's nuclear weapons are still not completely secure and fully accounted for. Dr. Kahn in Pakistan was selling huge amounts of nuclear material to anyone who wanted to buy. And I wouldn't be surprised if North Korea was looking for a someone to buy a nuke from them.

>>2583504

in a james bond movie the nuke doesn't ever go off

but yah, the black market exists, loose soviet nukes, 2 + 2

>>2583490
Hmm, would you be familiar enough with the Department of Homeland Security to tell me who exactly would want to and is capable of shipping a WMD to the US?

any number of things could kill you

there are thousands of people driving drunk right now. there are thousands of asteroids that could be hurtling towards earth unknown to us. there are thousands of people who would be happy to kill you for your beliefs, your actions, or just your wallet.

there isn't much point in worrying about things with such small odds of affecting us.

>>2583445

you could sample the population bro bro

statistics

>>2583515

right, or pakistan, or n korea, etc.

it's just a matter of time, more nations develop the technology, and sooner or later nuke gets into the wrong hands

that said, there are other ways of causing terror; nukes are only one

the fact that we are so concentrated and interconnected also makes us vulnerable

>>2583524
North Korea, and potentially some factions of the Chinese military. Iran will be capable in a few years.

>>2583526

bullshit

vigilance is necessary, especially in potentially unstable times

even if it is of low likelihood (tho the FBI dude just said WMD attack is 100% probability) the consequences are massive

those two things taken together means you must at least be aware and ready to adapt

ignorance is not the answer

>>2583532
But that's fucking retarded, you fucking retard.

>>2583531
>and sooner or later nuke gets into the wrong hands

They already are, just because no country has found a way to effectively deliver them without resulting in MAD doesn't mean they're in good hands.

if a terroist organization wanted to transport a WMD into the US, they wouldn't do it in a cargo transport. they would do it like the drug cartels do, in homemade submarines or something similar.

>>2583544
Wow, I am in awe of the unassailable logic of your retort. There's no possible way I could refute it.

>>2583565
OK, you fucking retard, since you are apparently too fucking retarded to understand this, no nation is going to attack the US because doing so would accomplish very little other than assuring their own destruction as a sovereign government, except possibly in the case of China whose economy would immediately implode on an American declaration of war anyway.

>>2583545

sure, but a suicide bomber doesn't give a fuck about MAD

>>2583573
see
>>2583578

>>2583580
Wait, so now your argument is that a lone suicide bomber will secure a nuculer weapon and travel with it inside a cargo container into a US port before detonating himself?

Wow, I don't know how I can ever sleep peacefully again.

>>2583580
why don't you go watch Fox News or something? I think Beck is on right now.

>>2583578
The guys brainwashing him into suicide bombing something sure as fuck do though.

>Live in the middle of fucking nowhere
>Mon visage quand nobody would waste a bomb on anything near me

>>2583588

you're missing the point homey

the will to destroy is often stronger than the will to self-preserve in some people's cases

deterrance works pretty well with states

terrorist groups?

good luck with that

even if they had to put themselves in with the nuke (where did you get that idea?) one person is nothing

we're already at war with terrorists so nothing would change there, except it might escalate, seeing as how we'd figure russia was involved or just a precaution

either way terrorists who get a nuke

what's to deter them from using it?

>>2583595
>live in the capital city of Canada
>mfw I'm still safe because no one cares about Canada

>>2583588
Haven't posted in this thread yet, but jesus are you stupid. An organization that isn't a sovereign government but has the resources to acquire a nuke from various sources is what the adults are discussing. Take the taliban for example. What would we do ? nuke the entire middle east? That would just cause even more problems for us.

>>2583601

>live in Australia
>the same way; no one gives a shit about aus
feelsgoodman.jpg

it's the logic of hte bumble bee

if you threaten the hive, individuals will sacrifice themselves to counter-deter you

the willingness to self-sacrifice is not something to be easily discarded; there is power in it

some guy lit himself on fire in tunisia and brought the govt down

Neither chemical nor biological weapons are particularly effective means to cause mass death, and nukes are obscenely expensive, and therefore highly and highly unlikely to come into the possession of terrorists.

Sleepin' tight tonight.

>>2583628
Experts consider biological weapons to potentially be even more deadly than nukes. A nuclear explosion is limited to the immediate area, but a disease can spread.

>>2583603
>he thinks the Taliban has the capacity to acquire a nuke

>>2583637
[citation needed]

>>2583662

money talks

Arabs got money

some are disaffected

not a huge jump in logic

>>2583662
I actually wouldn't put it beyond them. They are right in Pakistan, which is accelerating their nuclear weapons program. It's just that there's not much they could do with it.

>>2583662
in addition to:
>>2583670
>>2583673
I'm pretty sure that was just an example... you're bad at this.

>>2583669
http://documents.scribd.com/docs/2avb51ejt0uadzxm2wpt.pdf

>>2583695

anon delivers

USA founded on freedom is a little Dangerfield but worth it. now amaricunts scarde pussys. wait sorry not /b/
freedom can be/IS less secure. non-freedom is worse.
BTW you DERP, ohh no htey dint check the shipment of tampons, USA not safe!!!!

>>2583718

security enables freedom;

ie. social laws mean you're (relatively) free from worrying about your neighbors killing you

that security goes out the window, in many ways your less free

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_Scanning
http://www.saic.com/products/security/st-20/
http://www.saic.com/products/security/gr-460/

Scale that shit up, no problems.... Sorry for irradiating all the poor schmucks and stevedores that work in the port.

But whatever.

>>2583737
Each scanner costs millions of dollars and can only scan one package at a time. Real practical.

literally not a single CIA, NSA, GRO, SS, or FBI agent believes that a Nuclear weapon will be used as a terrorist or rogue WMD.
about 80% of experts agree it will most likely be chemical (nerve agent)...

about 19% believe it will be a biological agent (much more difficult to achieve in practice).


the remainder are crackpots.
but Nerve agents are the most likely WMD, because they have been used many times by terrorists.

>>2583695
>Graham/Talent WMD Commission
>Staffed by Career Bureaucrats
>Conclusion: Beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeees!
>Recommendation: More Government!

>>2583743
By package you mean a shipping container worth of material right?

Look I get it, yeah shits expensive, but you can definitely scale that system up, or adjust your infrastructure to speed up processing.

Jesus fucking Christ we can be dense on this board. Use your imagination.

I don't claim to have a solid answer for you. What I do understand is that you can scan across all sorts of spectra, and yeah, shit like kitty litter tends to pop up as a false positive like 99% of the time, but this is why you employ security personnel, you pull the offending container aside and scan the fuck out of it.

I really fail to see the point of this fucking thread.

/understands he's been trolled
//leaving this shit board for a few hours

>>2583603
>hurrdurr turrists wanna kill amurka cuz were better then them

>>2583732
>>2583732

nope.jpg


"security" defines the boundaries of the supposed "freedom" allotted to a citizen.


it is honestly all words anyway,


only a naive bumblefuck would believe that anyone anywhere is genuinely "free."


no. I dont mean "free" to murder your neighbors, pollute the environment, and burn down forrests...

but I mean:

free to take any action, regardless of what it does to YOURSELF, so long as it doesnt harm other people.


there are no governments on the planet that allow this.
It was like when Hilary Clinton recently announced:


"the internet is the most important public space of the 21st century"


I literally peed in my pants when I heard it.


public spaces have cameras, police surveilance, curfews/closing times, etc.


the internet SHOULD NOT be considered a "public" space.


it should be "THE PUBLIC'S" space, as in it belongs to the public.


the government's role in the internet should be nothing more than PROTECTIONARY.

eg: to protect one citizen's rights from another's.


thus the only government body that should have any control whatsover is the FCC.

and the FCC should only be able to enforce standards of ownership.
the NSA and FBI are building in their own back doors as a matter of course into the next generations of physical infrastructure in the US.


it is one of the reasons why wireless is being limited in its explosive development by the FCC.

in general, the government does not want to be "caught with its pants down" like it was with the early internet infrastructure.

the government needs to build the next generation infrastructure in a way that allows them guaranteed "top level access" at all times and without restriction.


this is no secret.. The NSA simply duplicates the Fiber trunk lines that go into your ISP.

it is a requirement of the Patriot act. ALL ISPs (not just the famous ATT case) do this.

Sure thing, OP.

Life would be retardedly boring if there were no risks. I'd rather have some semblance of freedom and a small risk of being blown up by a nuclear device than live in a heavily policed place and have a slightly smaller risk of being blown up by a nuclear device.

Life isn't worth living if things can't go wrong.

>>2583784

you use the word "should" a lot

it reveals the fact that you're out of touch with reality

many of the freedoms we enjoy, the freedom to walk into a grocery store and buy food, the freedom to be secure from the elements by having gas heat, etc.

these are freedoms that rely on a secure society

West coast I don't have to worry to much I don't think terrorist even know we exist.

>>2583784
Patriot act is expiring bro.

>>2583781
>/sci/
>what I expected: Logic and Science
>what I got: Oh God, We're All Gonna DIE!! Please Daddy Government, protect me from the Bogeyman!

Billions is spent to secure our airports yet most airports have simple backdoor access points that require basic hand tools to break in. Sleep well tonight

>3 billion females on the planet
>you're still a virgin

sleep well tonight

THIS
WILL
NEVER
CHANGE

>>2583813

strawman much?

recognising that there are dangers and preparing for the future is consistent with the critical thinking of science and logic

blind faith in the status quo and ignorance is the opposite

>>2583813
SHE NOT AC'SHULLY UNNAWADDA; DAT BE A SHOOP, MAING.

I wish I was surprised by how many people on /sci/ are in denial.

Say what? man has a glorious destiny among the stars? Ai, FTL, and the complete conquest of space starting just around the corner?

What's that, Artanis?

[spoiler]YOU'VE NOT ENOUGH MINERALS[/SPOILER]

Say what? man has a glorious destiny among the stars? Ai, FTL, and the complete conquest of space starting just around the corner?

What's that, Artanis?

>YOU'VE NOT ENOUGH MINERALS

>>2583843

i thot she war blowen bubblies but then i picture embiggened and much dissapoint

>>2583839
>spending inordinate sums to attempt to protect against an infinitesimally slight danger is consistent with the critical thinking of science and logic

>>2583844
i AM surprised by how you morons think. now I understand how shit like this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBwXkTO55ns&feature=related

happens. OH SHIT, DID YOU KNOW THERE ARE 3 MILLION WHITE BOYS IN THE UNITED STATES? THINK ABOUT HOW EASY IT WOULD BE FOR A TERRIST TO CONVINCE ONE TO BLOW UP A PLANE.

DAMNNIT THE GUMNIT NEEDS TO PROTECT US!

>>2583858
>implying when we use those ELEMENTS that they are in any way irrevocably gone.
>implying that we couldn't every atom of that back with enough energy.
>implying we aren't bombarded with huge amounts of energy all the time.

>>2583840
>>2583841
Well, to be fair, these statistics don't mean that terrorists can't surprise us by suddenly killing a million people, it just means that so far, we haven't had so high death counts from terrorism.

Still not worth losing sleep over, but you should always remember that future prediction from statistics is only true on the assumption that everything will remain the same. You have to judge yourself how correct it is to make this assumption for each situation.

>>2583864

when you figure the scale of impact it makes consideration worthwhile

>>2583867
also, you fucking retards, lets say the government decides to spend 100's of billions to build scanners for every single piece of cargo that comes into the US.

now the terrists can just bring it in through a fishing boat.

or use a chemical weapon they built in the US

or disguse the components in the cargo and assemble them once the arrive.

or one of a billion other possibilties.

>>2583880

nobody's saying it's 100% preventable

in fact, i cited earlier the FBI admits it's 100% inevitable that WMD will be used

what we need to consider, especially as far as we as individuals are concerned, is what do we do about it?

do we have plans to handle the dislocation associated with social upheaval, and the danger/risk of these weapons and their associative effects?

I think OP is a fox nevvs watching faggot who is the only one making all these arguments in an attempt to validate his shitty thread.

>>2583886

for example, do i want to be living in manhattan right now? fuck no

do i want to have supplies ready unless the stores close? yes

weapons to defend myself my family my food, etc. also a good idea

a safe place to go with less people? also a good idea

cities are centers of dependency, and when that dependency is strained, people do crazy shit

see cannibalism in the ukraine and leningrad 1930s and 40s

I really hope I've just been trolled hardcore, because it seems downright frightening to believe that even /sci/, probably the least retarded board on 4chan, is full of absolute fuckheads without enough critical thinking to so much as question the idea that mostly faceless and abstract groups of "terrorists" hate America and want to kill everyone in it.

>>2583886
you're just a faggot. go build a bunker and buy canned food faggot. don't you know the terrists are monitoring your internet traffic and recording your IP address?

>>2583887

there's several of us here in agreement, and i don't watch fox news for one

i can think for myself, however, and that means i don't see the world as a petty dualism between those who do and don't watch fox news, for one

>>2583887
Actually I read the New York Times and am a fan of Paul Krugman.

>>2583895

you think the stores are going to be open forever?

lulz who's the faggot?

>>2583892
here you go faggot:
http://www.survivalistboards.com/

now stop samefagging this thread.

>>2583903

look, if this conversation scares you, click the x pussy and go herp your derp

>>2583875
and a asteroid could kill us all, better spend ALL THE MONEY on asteroid defenses!

>>2583877
not even close

>>2583906

preparedness in any number of things is a good idea

on the other hand, war is periodic; it happens thru out history

to believe that there aren't people who want to fight and kill us is a huge leap of faith, inconsistent with the facts of time

>>2583906
I would be extremely pleased if NASA got a huge boost in their budget.

>>2583872

>but we need the elements to make the collectors of the energy to reclaim the elements...

>status [X] BONED

or,

>everyone just works together to recycle! Because, you know, it could happen...everyone working together for the common good.... it could work...

"A modern city is an almost incredibly helpless and delicate organism." Heinlein (For us the Living)

>>2583910
god dammnit. leave you shithead.

i know you've been samefagging this thread because you always put one space between your sentances.

"A modern city is an almost
incredibly helpless and delicate organism. It has lost its power to produce
the actual essentials of life. In spite of its transportation systems, it
cannot move as they found out in the evacuation of London. It is like an
overgrown idiot baby in an incubator. It is completely helpless without the
aid of the many servants that succor it. It cannot even think except in a slow
ponderous collective fashion and it cannot think at all in an emergency. Its
individuals can think, but a city is an organism in itself and must have a
directing brain and nervous system. Destroy its waterworks. It dies. Stop its
food supply. It dies. Remove its directing intelligence, it commits suicide.
The cities went to pieces first."

>>2583926

I've been responding, as have others, including yourself

does that mean you're samefagging?

get over it pussy if you don't like the argument nobody's keeping you here

>>2583917
you realize we had to start somewhere right? that we didn't originally have all the stuff we make and use now? and that if the raw materials get used up we could get the needed things out of them basically no matter what? Like smelting things in a fire, etc.?

so terrorism isn't real now?

you're seriously saying this after 9/11?

Its fucking astounding to see what colossal fucking idiots people on 4chan are

>>2583910
A Gamma-ray burst would wipe us out WITH NO WARNING!(OH SHIT NIGGA!2!1) Better spend a Hundred Trillion-Trillion dollars to move the whole human race underground. After all, preparedness in any number of things is a good idea

>>2583956
>this idiot thinks terriorism is real
>implying jevvs didn't do 911 and invent terrorism to steal arabs oil.

>>2583965

within reason

if i see a hurricane on the radar i'm not going to put on a tin foil hat

i'm going to prepare for the dangers we can sense, and plan for them

some dangers we can do nothing about; this is irrelevant

>>2583956
>>2583910
>>2583892
you sound like a tin foil hat wearing nutjob.

>>2583970

riiiiight, to steals the oil

pretty simplistic don't you think?

the powers who be only need the oil because we need the oil. do they need all of us hundreds of millions of people consuming oil? your argument is fucking stupid


plus, terrorist attacks in madrid, london, moscow

i suppose those were all the jews too?

>>2583979
what are you doing about the danger of heart disease, or car accidents?

what about the danger of a lunatic mass murderer?

what about a serial killer?

>>2583982

956 wasn't me

i'm the second 2

and nah bro, i just got my eyes open

war's a bitch, but it happens from time to time

>it's irrational to spend disproportionally on a single, small, contributor to overall mortality
>>2583956
>taworisum wil thwet!
>mus spwend all monee poeteching fom taworises!!

>>2583985

eat healthy, exercise, drive safely, be aware on the road

murderer i have contingency plans for too :)

>>2583989

given the scale of technology and interconnectedness of the global economy/system i'd say the threat isn't minimal

what did einstein say about ww3?

>>2583991
>drive safely, be aware on the road
thats not good enough. what about drunk drivers?

a rational person would buy an Hummer with bulletproof glass, and move to a place where they can do all their shopping by foot, and only drive during the daylight to minimize the chances of drunk drivers.

also, heart disease or cancer kills 70% of people so you will die from one of those. you need to do much more to prevent those.

>implying WMD's are that common or deadly
you're on fucking /sci/ we are not dumb ass fucking right wing retards

>>2583992
>interconnectedness makes a system weaker
you are painfully stupid

>>2583996

>implying I can't be aware of drunk drivers?


nothing's certain homey; we take risks as we see fit; as long as the benefit outweighs them we're cool

right now the risk of ww3 is not inconsequential that awareness is unwarranted

i'm still in a city tho, even tho it's not the place to be in a crash

plus you know you're trolling; if you believed what you were saying you wouldn't drive yourself and others wouldn't either

>>2584000

makes it stronger but it also makes it vulnerable

whenever you concentrate power, for example, that's strength too right? but it also makes for a great target

hence

>>2583998

common enough...how many nukes around?

there are other means


plus you're ignoring the fact that a good deal of the damage is psychological

the day of 9/11 lemmings in my city were lined up around the blocks to fill up their gas tanks @ 5$/gallon

>>2584010
Both the US and Russia have over 10,000 and other nations hold anywhere from a handful to a few hundred. There are nations that have them, but haven't officially declared it, and it's a guarantee that there are some that have them and no one knows they do.

>>2583984
Moscow's a totally different situation because there is actually a large population of muslims inside Russia with a direct reason to violently oppose the government, and both Madrid and London were amateur attacks that could never have succeeded on a WMD scale.

>>2584028

the proof was we have enemies who are willing to kill themselves to kill us

that they will get ahold of stronger weapons is a matter of time, what with the relative ease of availability (n korea, pakistan, loose soviet nukes, etc)

can you add 2 + 2


hostile intent + wmd