/sci/ - Science & Math

I'm okay with all of them but
>engineering psychology
sounds strange, explain plox

Well the (cloning geniuses in particular) part that you tacked onto human cloning is not okay. I'm fine with everything else though.

I personally believe that when it comes to cloning we'll get as far as vital organs for transplants and what not. Entire human cloning is a bit iffy–I would say the same with AI. Brings up all kinds of moral and ethical questions and how they would be treated since they aren't born human. Measure of a Man episode from Star Trek is a good example.

>>2560971
In short, finding ways to make people more happy, motivated and productive through psychological tactics, such as propaganda music and films.

All of them except for
>* cultural unification and destruction of traditional culture
I'd have to know what kinda culture this would be first.
Fuck off I'm going to have Australia end up like America.

If by "Engineering Psychology" you mean something like in the book 1984, engineering peoples psyches then I'd be against that. It robs society of new ideas and creativity.

Oh boy OP, you're coming off as fairly childish.

I support just about all of these points, however you should realize that geniuses are made by virtue of their environment.

Don't believe me? Well, would Einstein have come up with his theory of general relativity if he were stuck in a zoo his entire life without learning anything? Of course not.

Where resource allocation is concerned, I hope you know that this contradicts a basic tenet of capitalism (which I'm fine with, but you might not be).

Also, I agree with the other anon: What do you mean by engineering psychology?

>>2561021
Ironically, you made yourself look like an idiot. Most of the cognitive functions are highly inherited, and environmental factors don't play a very big role, except for learning. A cloned Einstein would still be about as good as solving physics problems if he learned the material.

>>2561005

We already have that. It's called FOX.

You're hopelessly contradicting yourself, OP. First you say you want to increase human cognitive skills, open-mindedness, and knowledge; the next minute you're talking about propaganda.

This is a horrible thread, even for /sci/.

>>2561032
samefag here,
at solving *

>>2561005
That's basically Religion, and with the list in OP it would seem Religion would cease to exist, or at least be a minority, at that point, no?

so NOPE

>>2561032

*citation needed

btw, this isn't junior year of high school. Don't just type in "genetic foundations for intelligence" in some search engine. In other words, don't bother starting an argument with me unless you have already done some research into developmental psychology or I'll know right away.

>>2561033
Whether it makes people more productive is arguable. Whether it makes people happier is arguable. Whether it motivates people to do *something* is undeniable.

>>2561033
Propaganda, just like nuclear fission technology, can be used as much for good as for evil.

If we use propaganda (or government advertisement) to motivate people, we would get them more politically active and interested in contributing to the new society and culture.

The avatarfagging, especially with the pic names being as they are, coupled with the use of tripcode and the general tone, makes me suspect aether.

non of them.

>>2561052

Any human being who's mentally susceptible to propaganda, by definition, will be less objective in the choices he or she makes. This is to say: if the government happens to become corrupt, and the people who choose what to play through the speakers has negative intentions, then questionable consequences may ensue.

Also, any established government which uses propaganda to control the populous invariably changes things so as to limit the information flow (this is the only way propaganda can be effective). In other words, the government would have an incentive to hide certain information from people.

So now, based on this, I'd like you to rescind your argument.

>>2561061

I've never visited this board before last week. I come from 420chan.

>>2561048
IQ tests are composed of different sub-tests, which are classified as either verbal or non-verbal.
Most of the non-verbal and some of the verbal scale has been shown to be highly inherited. The vocabulary scale has been shown to be somewhat inherited, but have a lot of environmental influences.

I don't remember the name of this study, as I saw it a long time ago on some Wiki page, but I can bring another citation in this thread:
"Estimates in the academic research of the heritability of IQ have varied from below 0.5 to a high of 0.9. A 1996 statement by the American Psychological Association gave about .45 for children and about .75 during and after adolescence."
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heritability_of_IQ

So, it's fair enough to say that intelligence is highly heritable after the person has finished developing.

>Which of the following are you not OK with?

>human genetic engineering

it's just... not natural to me.
I mean.. Im not sure on my stance on this, but it just seems wrong.
>human cloning

refer to the last one^

>destruction of traditional culture

debatable.


what is this?:
>careful and thoughtful resource allocation

>when it comes to cloning we'll get as far as vital organs for transplants and what not.

generating organs? or whatever terminology you would use for creating them by cloning?

sounds beneficial and completely fine to me :)

>>2561079
Propaganda is a form of communication that is aimed at influencing the attitude of a community toward some cause or position.

The United States of America has used this technique for generations, as well as most of the developed states - it's inevitable.
There's no such thing as being corrupt, value groups merely compete between each other for the position of power - to decide who, and/or in what manner, will get to use 'the speaker'. I'm confident in this technique as by my predictions, my value group will most likely hold control of this 'speaker' for a very long time.

>>2561102

Ah, but you're making a blunder anon!

You claim intelligence is inherited. From a certain point of view, this is of course true. The family a child is born into can predict a child's academic success.

However, this doesn't necessarily mean that genetics are involved (at least not as much as you're giving them credit). In fact, I took a course last year which discussed how children born in more affluent families (with professionals involved in academics) had a significantly higher chance of attending college. These children also got higher SAT scores, generally scored higher on intelligence tests, and inevitably secured more prestigious jobs.

While at the same time, poorer families (who have less access to tutors, and do not encourage their children to learn as much as more affluent families do) invariably score lower on all such exams and tend to secure lower wages as adults.

To put it simply, one's social environment essentially dictates one's future, at least on some level.

Also consider the fact that innovation, rates of college graduation, etc in a given country vary tremendously according to patterns of social inequality (the greater the gap between rich and poor, the less innovation, less patents, generally poorer intellectual climate, etc).

.

> * engineering psychology
Depends on who it is done on. I wouldn't mind having it done on AIs. You'll have to be more precise about what you mean by this term, since I don't fully understand what you mean by it, I can't say if I'm OK with it or not.
> * cultural unification and destruction of traditional culture
Traditional culture can be preserved in museums, libraries and databases, however I don't care if people stop practicing.

I'm fine with pretty much everything else.

>>2561157

There was also an intriguing study with lab mice that picked up notable attention from the media a while ago, in which a group of lab mice were mentally impaired on a genetic level. These same mice were then placed in a more stimulating environment (more complex surroundings, puzzles, mice were forced to solve puzzles in order to get food, etc). What the scientists found was that these genetically impaired mice actually scored higher on all intelligence tests than the control group of normal mice who were placed in a less stimulating environment.

I could sit her and name a bunch of studies and research articles, but there's no point in doing so as you can look these up for yourself (In fact, look into Robert Sapolsky's works).

But regardless, the facts are inescapable.

>>2561148

Some countries which exist today have no government that feeds them propaganda (so you're wrong), propaganda is poisonous (see FOX), and it will only exist as long as there is an incentive to control the public (which there doesn't have to be).

I feel like I'm starting from scratch with you guys...a friend told me you were the most intelligent group of people on this website, and quite frankly I'm disappointed.

This reminds me of family reunions when I'm forced into discussing politics and religion with my (distant) relatives who are staunch Republicans and evangelical Christians.

>>2561170
>>2561157

The overall brain size has been shown to have a 0.4 correlation with general intelligence. Frontal gray matter has also been to be linked with IQ, and to be very highly heritable.

Source: http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Intelligence,+Frontal+Lobe+Gray+Matter+Link.+%28IQ+Inheritance+Lin
ked...-a082511898

>>2561032
The actual neocortex is fairly general, and its development depends a lot on the environment. There are of course genetic factors, but the environment is a lot more important as far as actual knowledge and skill is concerned. With good genetics, someone might be able to perform certain tasks faster or better, but someone who had more training will also be able to do them, but slower. As long as you're not retarded or otherwise mentally incapacitated as a result of your genetics, you'll have similar chances to be a "genius" as long as you learn and understand enough relevant information.

>>2561188
Spare me. Let your arguments stand as they are. Don't undermine your own position with obvious arrogance.

>engineering psychology

hell fucking no

this is done every time people watch mainstream news, which is why I get my news from the internets

>* transportation improvement
thats bullshit

>>2561216
Why not? Imagine in 50 years oil is too expensive and cities could develop their own internal electric distribution system for cars and other transportation mechanisms. There's a lot of work that could be done to cope with the fact that combustible fuels will be too expensive, not to mention that creating such a system that is used by the majority of the population would reduce accidents greatly if properly engineered.

>careful and thoughtful resource allocation
Just no, central planning always inevitably fails. Unless you plan on making some magical supercomputer which knows the needs of every human on earth, resource distribution by humans would be riddled with corruption, inefficiencies, and starvation.

>>2561188
This is why I said most, and propaganda is a good thing as long as it supports my views.

You sound very dull and childish, by the way. You lost every single argument in this debate, and yet indirectly call our forum unintelligent.

My grandfather was a philosopher who worked in a Soviet institute, my grand-grandfather was a Soviet gold mine owner. My uncle is a mathematics major, currently doing thermal engineering. My dad is a civil engineer and a mathematics major, currently working on a stadium project in France, and an artist. My mother is an artist.

As you see, my family tree is full of geniuses in different fields, most of which are focused on very intellectual work. My IQ has also been estimated to be over 160 (too high to measure with any standard testing).

Anyone who dares to call me unintelligent is simply delusional.

>>2561247
Not central planning - careful tax money allocation

>>2561249
What if the propaganda doesn't support your views?
I think people should just learn to think for themselves and judge physical things based on the evidence available.
Those that don't do that should not be allowed to make decisions.

More than that, especially censoring available information to distort someone's viewpoint is not morally right and would interfere with the points I said before (ability of someone to be rational and judge based on evidence).

>>2561195

Sure; I'm not disagreeing with you in so far as the idea that intelligence has a genetic component. I'm merely arguing that one's social environment can affect intelligence in remarkable ways.

Also, almost all research studies which vouch for the idea that intelligence is based on nature make their measurements regarding a group of adults or adolescents.

In other words, these studies completely neglect the concept of Neural Darwinism (the idea that the actual structure of a person's brain will change in response to environmental stimuli). It's sort of related to the concept of plasticity, which is more popular.

So essentially, I want you to think about a human being as a biomechanical organism which, unlike any other living organism, exhibits significant variation according to a summation of all extrinsic events which it can perceive.

This reminds me of an article I read a while back, with this man who was born blind due to some distortion in his eye lenses.

When he reached adulthood, medical science had finally come up with a type of surgery with which to cure him, and to help him regain his vision.

What was really interesting about this man's case was that, after the surgery was complete, the mechanics of his vision were working fine. That is, the photo-receptors in his retina were transmitting visual data to his brain correctly, and he could in fact "see" everything around him with clarity.

>>2561269

However, as his brain was not used to seeing, he had not developed the ability to actually interpret what he was seeing. In other words, through this man's eyes everything he saw looked like some hopelessly bright and complicated jumble of lights and lines that he simply couldn't interpret. He killed himself a few days later after this experience caused him to loose his sanity.

An autopsy revealed that the area of the brain responsible for interpreting vision in this man was significantly smaller than the average person. In fact, genetics wasn't the cause of his problem (obviously). Rather, his brain cells in the region of the cortex responsible for vision never got "exercise" and thus never developed.

The same concept has been shown, at one level or another, to apply to other areas of intelligence.

My main argument is that once you begin to undermine environmental components of intelligence, you set yourself up for disaster.

(why does /sci/ limit text fields to this extent?)

>>2561208

Sorry, I'm in a bad mood today. Let me rescind that last remark.

>>2560936
* human genetic engineering
* human cloning (cloning geniuses in particular)

see
>>2560041
It's gotten clogged up with the whole morality debate...

the captcha is creepy...
homis england
(home is england)
Captcha stalks you...

>>2561277
The character limit is chan-wide, not specific to /sci/.

>>2561293

Oh I see...someone should tell moot to increase the field, seeing as how this is an academic board.

>>2561269
Could we please return to the propaganda argument, which hasn't been completely finished. You should finish previous arguments before jumping to the new ones.

Propaganda can't be objectively defined as a bad thing. If the propaganda is done in discordance with your values - it's bad. If it's done in accordance with your values - it's good.

For example, I view the values of the majority as stupid, and I would be glad if propaganda would be directed against most of their fallacious values.

>>2561249

You're right, it was wrong of me to say that; I'm just a bit frustrated today.

But there's no need to replicate my actions and bring personal matters into this discussion.

I was recruited by Stanford and MIT at 17 based on my performance on the USAMTS, USAMO, and Siemens, but if you notice I haven't once (until now) brought direct ethos into this conversation.
I'd argue that because your family was so affluent and intelligent, they chose to raise you differently, which could explain your intelligence. You smart enough to know the difference between causality and correlation.

But again, you're absolutely correct that my insult was highly unwarranted as well as false.

If it makes it up to you, I have a slight addiction to Vicodin, and I lost my script today. :(

>>2561316
Someone should tell moot that this board needs moderation.

Oh, wait. Someone does, every day.

Funny thing. Moot doesn't actually care about 4chan.

>>2561314
>If it makes it up to you, I have a slight addiction to Vicodin, and I lost my script today

HOUSE

I FUCKING KNEW IT

GET BACK TO WORK, YOU HAVE A PATIENT TO ALMOST KILL AND THEN SAVE TWO MINUTES BEFORE THE EPISODE ENDS

Okay with all of them other than cultural unification. Goddamn Earth would be boring within a hundred years if that happened. Still, that doesn't mean I want 'muslim culture' or some shit sticking around.

>>2561313

I don't disagree with you; I don't know what's right and what's wrong. All I can do is make decisions based on the evidence available to me and the extent by which my emotions and limited perspective allow me to do so. No one is any better or any worse.

All I'm saying is that a society which introduces propaganda as an element of social control typically produces citizens of a lower mental caliber, who can't think for themselves. If history has taught us anything, it's that virtually all mass genocides and atrocities were caused by primitive notions such as religion, patriotism, etc (ignoring resource wars obviously).

In other words, the true problem humanity faces is our general disability when it comes to thinking for ourselves.

If Nazi Germany was a bunch of scholars and morally educated philosophers, do you think the holocaust would have happened?

That's all I'm saying.

>>2561337

haha; unfortunately I don't think I'm as smart as house. Whenever I watch that show he almost always beats me to the diagnosis :)

My addiction to opiates, in contrast, isn't due to some "hatred for the masses". I'm just a weak individual who liked how the stuff made me feel after I had oral surgery recently.

>>2561314
Except I have won 36 math contests during my academic life, and 13 physics ones. The results of my IQ tests have also shocked the neuropsychologists, as they've never seen a score this high in their entire lives.

And yes, I know the difference between correlation and causation, and I know when correlation can be regarded as the causing factor with a very high probability. I agree, my parents chose to rise me differently, which would explain my unusual abilities, which have been remarked even by them.

Back to the topic, could we please go to the unfinished argument regarding the propaganda, which you have so suddenly left, for an unknown reason?

ITT: Trolls trolling trolls

>>2561329

That sucks :(

Can't moderators take care of that? When I first stepped foot on /sci/ and made a post concerning GMO I was banned and told to "keep /new out of /sci/"

So I know there are moderators, haha.

Why are people with off-the-chart IQs wasting their valuable time on 4chan?

>>2561361

Geez, I get it, you're smart. What about my comments on propaganda concerns you?

engineering psychology is the fucking devil

this is just a fancy way of saying brainwashing everyone into drones

admit it


also cultural unification would suck too.
why make less diversity?

>>2561375

No more midterms, that's why :D :D :D

>>2561385

Agreed. In general, I get worried over any attempt to dehumanize individuals and evaluate a person's worth or perceived value based on intelligence, genetics, etc.

>>2561373
Can't moderators take care of what? Moot not caring?

Also, it sounds like you ran afoul of an autoban script. For a while after /new/ was obliterated, saying a racial slur would also get you autobanned. Certain links and keywords get the same result.

>>2561386
Your favored area of study?

>* engineering psychology
>* cultural unification and destruction of traditional culture
Obvious ethical problems. No. The last thing we want is universal uniformity.


OP, are you trying to describe communism/socialism? Is that what you're getting at?

>>2561344
My opinions are better from my point of view. I think that brainwashing the masses would be a good thing as long as it would comply with my (and my value group's) values, because then, my values would be fulfilled faster.

Countries in which propaganda isn't prevalent seem to suffer from economic and educational backwardness. On the other hand, countries in which propaganda is used excessively seem to have the highest GDP per capita as well as other positive factors.

The Holocaust would have happened regardless, as the so-called morally educated people would be exterminated.

Propaganda should and must be used, as long as it complies with my views. If it doesn't, it's always bad.

>>2561406

I'm majoring in physics, math and writing.

(But don't get the wrong idea; I have so much credit from AP exams and EPGY courses that I've been allowed to continue past the intro series, making it far easier to take up more majors).

I've also been researching energy, electrical engineering and programming in my free time (which isn't a lot nowadays).

>>2561402

hmm, I guess that must be it. So /sci/ really doesn't have any moderators? Shame..

a lot of them are grossly simplified

i.e cloning geniuses, i doubt being a genius is inherited. besides theres a lot of extremely intelligent people that are useless due to other factors (laziness, apathy etc)

im ok with cultural unification, but dont quite understand what you mean by "traditional culture". i think there would be several ways of being educated without being bounded to geographical constraints. i believe in multiculturalism after both cultures reach some sort of understanding.


and for the rest.. why i wouldnt be ok with

>>2561429
Any opinions on the latest work on viable fusion power?

>>2561373
That's an automatic wordfilter ban. Those are distinguishable as you will get an error in red first, then you will find out you are banned after refreshing.

>>2561422

Propaganda isn't used in countries such as those in Northern Europe, and they're doing just fine when it comes to measurements for happiness, intelligence, academic achievement, etc.

America's education system sucks, and I'd argue that it's mainly do to a horrid public education system and the mainstream media / pop culture.

I seriously hope you aren't using GDP to measure anything meaningful, such as happiness, social equality, intelligence or the like.

The smartest people in this country (for the most part) don't major in economics/business/poli sci.

I have an aunt who makes half a million a year working on the stock market, and she's literally one of the stupidest, most politically/religiously backwards human beings I've ever encountered.

>>2561441

All I can say is that I hope someone figures the problem out soon, as our species will soon be in need of a viable source of alternative energy.

Last I heard, China's been working fervently to figure out how to derive energy from a fusion reaction. My physics professor recently told us that China has actually been persuading their most intelligence scientists to join a team that's trying to use thorium to get nuclear energy from.

Exciting stuff, really. Hope someone figures it out.

>>2561447
Also, why do you think citizens should think for themselves in the areas which propaganda targets? This is completely ridiculous - individual thought in these sectors, at least from my point of view, seems to be very shity in the consequence, therefore ruthlessly and intolerantly forcing my views on them in this area would be a good thing, from my point of view.

>>2561481
>>2561447

>numerous grammatical errors.

Yeah, I must be getting tired. Nice chatting with you guys, but I think I'll head off to bed soon.

I'll stick around to answer some remaining points some anon wanted to make about propaganda though.

>>2561447
>Propaganda isn't used in countries such as those in Northern Europe

>implying whatever the TV is airing is not propaganda.

in the second you turn on the tv, radio or any type of massive broadcast communication system, you are consuming the values of the society you live in. The best propaganda is the one were the client isnt aware that is propaganda.

>>2561496
The argument has been won by me, the undeniable genius.

>>2561489

Sorry, I should have been more specific. I meant that people should learn to think for themselves and live in a society which encourages learning and more objective reasoning.

Given the caliber of people in today's society as they are, I'd agree that they are incapable of making their decisions.

But based on the fact that some countries are fairing quite well in terms of their ability to make thoughtful moral and political choices, I'd argue that it's possible to change this society.

That's what I meant by propaganda being undesirable.

>>2561504

I wasn't aware that we were engaged in some sort of competition here. My goal is to share information with others, not to "win".

But anyways, It's time for me to go. Nice talking with you all, peace be with you.

>>2561519

cat fags always lose, then pretending they won by walking away with their asshole showing

>>2561489
is dangerous for dumb people (which are the majority) to have thinking of their own, this could led to terrorist acts, or threats to the current system. They actually want and need to be educated. They need some sort of simple understanding of how their world works, and what to think about it. Now, people that are capable of identifying this bull shit and look over it would always do so, so propaganda might be useless to them. These are the most useful members of society.

* cultural unification and destruction of traditional culture

Not necessarily conserving culture, but preserving it.

>>2560936
I'm against this one for sure
>* cultural unification and destruction of traditional culture
But these
>* citizen cognitive functioning and knowledge improvement
>* careful and thoughtful resource allocation
sound suspiciously like communism and government-controlled indoctrination. Both great ways to shoot scientific advancement in the foot, if not the head.

>>2561508
People shouldn't learn to think for themselves - they aren't good at it. I'm glad that a moral codex like the Holy Bible existed and was wide spread in the Western world, which allowed such a magnificent civilization to arise.

If individual thought was to ever take over, people would most likely fight and kill each other over the morality and other issues, making the foundation of such a civilization impossible.

If I was in control of a country, one of the first things I would do would be 'brainwashing' the masses to perform actions which I see as beneficial.

>>2561497

You're right. I should have said less propaganda.

For instance, France has numerous political parties who each choose a candidate to be elected. Each candidate has equal air time and thus the candidate with more funds isn't necessarily the one who will win out in the end.

So for instance, I believe France had 16 candidates running for office last election (I might be wrong since this off the top of my head), whereas the U.S. only has two real candidates who have a fighting chance.

So there's less political propaganda, due to the fact that there's no means for creating propaganda (regardless of how much funding a news station gets, each president can only get a certain amount of media coverage).

Quite unlike FOX, who can spew their verbal garbage about conservatism all day long (as well as the liberal media who are sometimes nearly as foolish in their coverage and content).

But as you can see, this conversation is digressing from the original topic, thanks to that whole propaganda tangent :3

Bye guys.

>>2561545
>implying politlcal propaganda is the only or most important form of propaganda.

i came late to this thread, and dont understand why people were actually replying you.

>>2561545
Propaganda could also be inspired to motivate the masses to do greater things. Propaganda is a very good thing as long as it represents my values. I would let my value group control the propaganda machine and tell it to hold it for as long as it can, as these people are most likely to represent my values.

>>2561574
Consuming in a capitalistic system is a great thing to do. Actually is the only useful thing that comes from dumb people.

>>2561574

lolsemantics. u sure ur a genius bud?

>>2561540
No, just no.

* importance of rational decision making and consideration of all the benefit and harm produced with every decision
* space colonization
* engineering psychology
* transportation improvement
* networking technologies improvement
* citizen cognitive functioning and knowledge improvement
* careful and thoughtful resource allocation
* developing the most promising technologies
* promotion of science