/sci/ - Science & Math

Tasty.

When it comes down to it, basically it's a certain number of bit on government / bank computers.

Deal with it.

a big nigger cock

>>2516164
Maybe so but it doesn't provide good nutritional benefits

>>2516167
Moar like represented wealth.

It's a promise from your government.

This should terrify you.

>>2516163

A reciept for gold, look up fractional reserve banking.

Its what gives me a sense of self worth. I have lots of money so that makes me better than everyone that has less than me.

money is a medium for exchange

>>2516177
I think the US dollar isn't representative of gold at all. I don't know about other currencys though.

>>2516177

There isn't anywhere near enough in Ft. Knox at this point.
US currency has been unbacked for a very long time.

BABY DON'T SPEND ME

>>2516177

This, the history of paper money is actual pretty cool. Don't know about how it's in the US, but in the UK the bank is still obligated to give you gold when trading in paper money, if you ask for it.

>>2516177

That hasn't been the case in over a hundred years. The currency could not fluctuate as much as it does if it had a solid base of precious metal.

>>2516167
>>2516176

> New world order retards detected

>>2516198
>>2516182
>>2516177

> Only good answers so far

Banks, don't hurt me...
Don't hurt me, no more.

>>2516205

Have fun with your new depression when the baby boomers all retire.

>>2516163

we have fiat money, its value isn't based on any precious metal like before; its value floats around based on the supply/demand of your currency in the world-market--the government simply declares that it is legal tender, and it is so.

money is a store of value
money is a medium for exchange
money is a unit of account

there are various different categories or supplies of money, M0, just bank reserves + notes in circulation
M1 is more robust, and M3 is the most robust, includes large time deposts and money market funds, etc.

money is neither good nor evil

Something to be added to the fossil record soon enough

>>2516198
>in the UK the bank is still obligated to give you gold when trading in paper money, if you ask for it.

Uh, no. Go to a bank in England and try to get gold for your pound notes. You'll get the cops called on you.

If the money's value is drawn solely from how much of it is circulation shouldn't there be a sweet spot, so to speak. Where theres enough money for everyone and it still has good buying power.

Money is a medium for exchange.

Just because some dudes have a monopoly on it doesn't change this.

>>2516223

Having enough currency for everyone and actually having it distributed evenly so everyone has enough are two entirely different things.

(it doesn't matter how much you print; the latter will never happen)

It's POWER

>>2516223

Rich faggots horde it, so basically there is never enough. Also money needs to be continually created as it is basically debt.

>>2516234
>Government steals it, so basically there is never enough.

ftfy

>>2516239
They reinvest it into infrastructure and military might though so it's going to good use.

Good morning from an econ grad student!

>>2516163
Thanks for asking! Let's discuss this very important question:

Money with a lowercase m is a medium of exchange that makes a market more efficient than a bartering system. It has been represented by all sorts of things for all of history in every society discovered. In a bartering system, a good with specific characteristics typically becomes the medium of exchange. This makes trading easier.

To use a modern example, if I am selling a motorcycle, and I want a months worth of food, two new outfits, accommodations near my place of employment, and a few nights out on the town, it could be very difficult to find someone with this set of goods to exchange for my motorcycle. However, a medium of exchange where my motorcycle is worth 2000 currencies (C), and I can use that much C to exchange with other traders for the products I want, I will happily sell my motorcycle for 2000 C to a buyer.

So what makes C, C? As mentioned earlier, it usually stems from a combination of these three basic characteristics;

>>2516243
A good deal of it just goes to service the debt.

Governments are terrible at spending too so a ton of it is just wasted even when they try to buy goodies like infrastructure/medicine.
There was a recent case in the UK where the NHS was paying £1000 (about $1.5k) for a jar of saltwater.
They don't really give a shit about getting ripped off cause it's not their money.

>>2516258
1. society wide demand for this material or product
2. difficulty to replicate at a cost lower than the purchasing power of the material or product
3. and that this material or product does not spoil over time

Where filet mignon fits the first two, it fails the third test. Where copper fills the first and third requirement, it is too cheaply valued a material to be used as currency efficiently.

Societies all throughout history have agreed on...GOLD!

Gold meets all three requirements, has the benefit of being easily divisible into small amounts, and it's rarity has maintained its value over thousands of years!

In the last hundred years however, many of the leading societies have decided that they can create a fiat currency. A currency that stats by being backed by gold directly, then becomes nonexchangeable for the gold it represents, and is ultimately weaned off being backed by gold at all. This is done under the belief that a wise central bank can adjust interest rates and inflation as if it really was backed by gold.

This has lead to many countries trying to print their way out of debt, devaluing savings, and coupling unemployment with high inflation due to bad regulation and the cantillon effect.

I hope that sums up money for you, if you have any questions, I'll be in this thread for a little while.

>>2516223
Econ grad student here

An excellent idea, especially with fiat currency being worldwide.

The central banks typically try to stick to an increase of 3% in the money supply each year, although that is rarely maintained.

While on paper it may look like it is, the amount of money (at least printed by the federal reserve) isn't calculated by the amount of money they print, but by it's affect on the CPI.

So while there is a "sweet spot", selfish governments will typically ignore it for short term spending sprees

money has no value because it isn't linked to gold which has inherent value in every possible universe

.>>2516261
Kinda off topic but:
What's your opinion on wages, bro?
What market force decides them?
I know the "gravity" on the wage is the fact companies want to pay the worker as little as possible to maximize profit but what is the "upthrust"?
There is the legal minimum wage that artificially brings it up to a certain point but what beyond that?
Skill is obviously a variable, scientists get paid more than dustbin men.
Is it competition for labour? MedCompany1 wanting to hire a doctor for 10 crackers but MedCompany2 being able to pay 11 crackers?

The "upthrust" isn't nearly as elegant as the "gravity" and it's been on my mind lately as to what exactly sets the price of wages since me a buddy keep arguing about globalization and trade zones/immigration.

>>2516274
Greetings!

You're using money in the sense that society currently views it.

Let's assume based on the time of day that we're talking about American currency.

While it is not backed by gold, it certainly has value due to its relative scarcity and difficulty to reproduced. It has the added value of being back by the governments ability to violently force to to accept it for any debts between 'private' parties.

While this is a terrible system that I disagree with, I certainly would say that money as it's seen in it's fiat form has value, even if it's not ideal.

answer is Joo Mind Control

problem solved, thread over
anything below this line is trolling:
---------------------------------------------------------

>>2516215

Maybe, however on a british pound note it says

"I promise to pay the bearer on demand the sum of"

So I wonder if they are legally bound in one manner of another. Most likely in some stocks however.

Hay guise...

Bitcoin

>>2516303
What could I use bitcoin to buy, today.

>>2516303
lol nothing.

Thats why the currency is worthless. It's fiat, so it's worthless precisely BECAUSE no one uses it.

>>2516301

Found some evidence for this.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_pictures/7842426.stm

>>2516284
always happy to talk about anything related to economics.

The upthrust in modern times has been hidden. Skill is typically seen as what firm exchange their money for, but just like college, it is little about skill and more about consistent work effort.

Even if I'm a average or slightly below average stocks trader, if I show up to work on time every day , listen to the advice of people better than I, and read what I can about stock trader theory, than I am more valuable than a person who is an above average stock trader or puts in a short day, ignores advice flat out, and assumes he already knows everything and ignores updates in his field.

Companies are realizing this more and more every day, and would and are willing to pay a premium (shockingly more so at a part time/mcdonalds style firm). They are paying more and more every day, but in the form of increased taxes for the labor they are buying. What you see on your check is half of the taxes total, your employer is paying the other half. A simple estimate is that your company could easily spend 40% more on you if you're a worthwhile worker if you didn't have to pay such high labor taxes.

I hope that answers your question, let me know if you have anymore

Money is what makes a man act funny.

>>2516215

A pound is a legal contract between the bearer of the pound and the bank of England. They HAVE to give your gold if you demand it.

It's debt. Or if you're a philosophy major, it's nothing.

>>2516328

> MFW I actual learned about the history of the English pound when in the course philosophy of the mind, and we stumbled upon the subject "social structures".

>>2516317
Tell me why we aren't in for a 30 year stock bear as the demand to hold stocks falls every year as more boomers retire and pension funds sell assets to pay out pensions.

A medium of exchange.

>>2516340
haha I can't say it'll play out like that, likely we'll see a bond bubble crash followed by a currency problem, likely leading to a consolidation of currencies, or hopefully a move back to gold backed money!

Don't worry, I'm as concerned as you are.

Short term advice, get out of debt, live in or below your means, and buy gold/silver. Also be better at what you do than the people of your field, seriously.

I'm in school and I'm taking courses at my school while surveying courses at two other schools in my spare time. I know not many people have that luxury, but if you're the best and you put in the time, you're going to succeed

>>2516340
Because of resource depletion, climate change, overpopulation and the general political chaos that will result. The baby boomers existed in an era of global peace and prosperity unseen in history yet they wasted an enormous amount of energy from uranium, fossil fuels as well as irreplaceable resources on frivolous luxuries instead of creating a sustainable economy and helping develop the 3rd world. It goes one step further, in order to placate their failings they now support fruity leftist empty platitudes like socialism, corn ethanol and anti-globalism even though all 3 are worthless and corruptive, but the baby boomers will continue to think they are "good people" and blame us for the state of the world on their death beds.

>>2516284

NOT the econ grad student here. I'll answer your questions with my own humble educated opinion, though.

1. Wages as they are currently implemented are paying someone a fixed rate for their time instead of the around of energy they put into their work. A Marxist would also say they they need to be paid the value of the products they produce. Getting a Salary is alittle better beacsue its basically the employer "buying you for a year @ price x" where x is your year's salary. In either case it's a convenient scam used by capital owners as a way to accumulated profit instead of just breaking even as conservation of energy ought to stipulate.

2. The costs of production faced by capital owners/employers and (to a lesser extent) individual employee and union haggling. PROTIP: anyone who is anti-union is really just anti-negotiation. Employers ought to face the prices set by laborers just like they have to face all other market prices.

3. There's not much upthrust at all besides workers who are willing to say "no, fuck you, I'd don't like that wage you're giving me, so no deal". Outside of unions (who always get a bad name Beach they frequently demand too much) and people who have other income streams (so as not to be so desperate for employment), the only "upthrust" happening is the employers thrusting their dick up your ass and expect you to take their low wages like a bitch. I will say that some of the dick thrusting is also preformed on the employers themselves because they don't have enough money to pay you a better wage. So really, a lot of the labor market is just Trickle Down Buttfucking

4. See all the above.

5. Skilled labor is more easily valued and less easily exploited then un-skilled or common-skilled labor.

Hey guys!

Gold is just soft yellow rocks!
It is worth a lot in exchange for the EXACT same reason a $100 bill is worth a lot: because both parties can be confident they can then exchange it for something else in turn.

Have a nice day!

>>2516317
Interesting. What is your opinion on a global labour market while we have our current competing currencies?

For example:
In Asterixia, the people are very poor and are willing to work low-skilled labour for the equivalent of 1 swirl an hour.
In Swirlistan, the people live in first-world conditions and have a minimum wage law that companies must pay their employees 500 swirls an hour.

If there were was a free labour market, wouldn't all the companies source their labour from Asterixia?

>>2516368

you mad

Dont worry, me too. Buy gold, nigger

>>2516377
I'm anti-union because unions are no more than superficially about collective bargaining. They're rent-seeking entities that use political power to extract wages above their station at the cost of higher prices for everyone.

>>2516410

when china takes over the world economy gold will be the new copper, and many joo's will be sad that day

Don't buy gold, dumbasses. It's called a bubble.

>>2516404
Yes, but the difference is that there is no pseudo-political body like the Fed or other Central Banks that can create more gold without any labor or cost. Anti-state people like this about gold, statists dislike this about gold.

>>2516317
Interesting. What is your opinion on a global labour market while we have our current competing currencies?

For example:
In Asterixia, the people are very poor and are willing to work low-skilled labour for the equivalent of 1 swirl an hour.
In Swirlistan, the people live in first-world conditions and have a minimum wage law that companies must pay their employees 500 swirls an hour.

If there were was a free labour market, wouldn't all the companies source their labour from Asterixia since their currency is competing poorly?
What would a global standardized currency do to this situation?

Cheers.

>>2516215

The Bank of England is the one that gives you the gold. They print the money. Other banks won't trade you because it's not their notes.

If I had any gold, I would sell it right now, to take advantage of the bubble caused by dumbasses afraid the end times are coming because a negro is in the white house.

But I don't own any yellow rocks. Instead, I own substantial chunks of a number of profitable businesses, giving me regular income from my share of the profits. The exchange value of these chunks is worth far more than the quantity of dollars I own, so I'm not worried about inflation in the least.

>>2516437

who said standardized global currency?

you are under the ass-hat assumption that China's rule over world trade will be less domineering than the US? nice try, but guess again

>>2516412
NOT econ grad student here.

I don't disagree. Unions need to focus more on collective bargaining AND collective marketing.

The rent-seeking and political bullshit IS why unions suck. As it stands today, if I was offered a chance to join a union, I would decline.

It's a danm shame, in the Netherlands the entire economic system is based on an annual round of collective bargaining between corporatist entities(read: industry bodies and organizations, not corporation-controlled authoritarian plutocracy) from all sectors of the economy. Its funny, its like a planned economy but not.

>>2516449

>pretending gambling on businesses is safer than gambling on rocks

those businesses are no more reliable than the currency that fuels them, when they go belly up and sell out to chinese corps for pennies per share, there will be many sad joo's that day

>>2516377
Haha I was about to leave for lunch but I can't ignore this.

1. This is called "sticky wages" and it is a fallacy. Even at low tiers of employment, the competitive companies review semi-annually or annually for raises reflecting the work ethic put in by the person over the year. Typically, the masses gain from this. It's not worthwhile to leave a business open on slow days with few customers or during bad economic times when seeking new clients can be a fools game, but the companies keep these people on the clock or in the office because they want consistency and not turn over costs.

2. In a (relatively) free country such as the ones we are discussing from, the ability to become the owner of a capital generating business is easy, even from the bottom of poverty, it would only take a few years of investing labor in exchange for capital to start your own business if you were entrepreneurial enough to do something like that. The idea that the employer has the advantage is null in a society where the employee can with relative ease become an employer. In the instances where this is not true is not a fault of the general principle, but the problem of lack of economic freedom, which I would advocate more of in that situation.

3. That variable of upthrust is called competition for labor. What people forget is that we are all just selling our product of labor, in exchange for a certain wage assuming conditions are met. If firm A is paying it's workers who have been there for 5 years so much less than firm B that is is profitable to transfer and stay at firm B, than firm A will be left with bad employees. This is how the market coordinates labor. You get what you pay for.

>>2516449
You own several business and you think the increase in demand of gold is caused by a national news syndicate alone?

I'm sorry.


Also, I'm off to lunch, thanks everyone, it's been quite a discussion

>>2516326
There is also some arcane law about being able to shoot a Scotsman with a longbow on some welsh hill or some shit.
Try doing that and see what happens, same shit.
No bank is going to give you gold no matter what old laws are kicking around.

>>2516449

You don't get it do you? Its not about Obama and the end times. Its about how the federal reserve is hyper-inflating the currency and the US gov't is out of money.

Your business stocks will crash out and be worthless when the value of the dollar is destroyed and these business can't make a profit because the economy completely collapses. Gold is not in a bubble, the price increase it because the dollar is already hyper inflated as it stands.

The US domestic economy will feel the full Wiemar-republic effect of this the second other country's stop using the dollar as an exchange currency. And this is slowly beginning to happen. It's already going on in Russia and china.

>>2516472

you're wrong, the central bank of england will, but its not as simple as making a withdraw from a savings account

>>2516464
really, the econ grad student doesn't believe in modern macro? Are you working on hypermathematical micro or game theory or something?

>>2516462
>Implying I don't own Chinese stocks.

Also, I don't buy stock just so that I can sell it for more later. Stocks continually generate income - that's what gives them their value in the first place.

Oh look, a thread where I get to post this chart

>>2516480

news flash! gold is just as much a fiat currency as the dollar is and it will crash the second china's currency becomes the new standard for world trade

>>2516496

>implying I won't be able to trade in my precious metals for Yuan's if need be.

>implying I will be able to trade in US dollars for Yuan's.

cool story bro

Gold is never going to be worthless.

An oz gold coin in ancient Rome would buy me a toga, a sword and some sandals.
An oz gold coin today would buy me a custom fitted suit, a new rifle and some nice shoes.

>>2516547

actually, assuming you still want to make that trip to the Men's Warehouse, the remainder might by you a glock and some ammo. Not a rifle. Have you seen the price of an AR-15 lately?

debt + intrest.

Gold is never going to be worthless.

An oz gold coin in ancient Rome would buy me a toga, a sword and some sandals.
An oz gold coin today will buy me a custom fitted suit, a new rifle and some nice shoes.

>>2516469
>You own several business

lol, no, he owns pieces of businesses. That's what stock is.

>>2516566

thats a nice argument until the joo's lose control of world trade markets to china....

then gold will be worth about what copper is now

>>2516377

What Econgradstudent fails to understand is that the US economy is not a free market and its not a free country, really.

This is because we DO NOT live in a situation where an employee can easily become a business owner just by saving up wages. Many people in this country (scratch that, in this whole world economy) are living paycheck to pay check because they get paid shit. Upward mobility doesn't truly exist unless you're already privileged. The idea that the man on the street can become a millionare with a dollar and a dream is at least 99.8% a bullshit lie

When you are forced between 1. daily survival and 2. start a store

what do you think you're going to do?

>>2516563
Spend $450 on a suit (not custom fitted but what ever) and shoes and $900 on an Arsenal AK

>>2516566
>>2516563
re-referance.

THIS IS WHY WE CANT HAVE NICE THINGS. BECAUSE OF POST-DELETERS LIKE YOU

>>2516589
first of all, pic related, its why you're a dumbass.
second of all, what makes you think that Chinese econ dominance is going to devalue gold? What is your evidence? Do they have some hidden pile of chink gold that they're just secretly waiting to dump on the market? what the fuck mate.

lol, captcha = alium from

>>2516602
i accidently deleted it :<
damn password storing browers

>>2516596

Arsenal AK is only 900? news to me.

>in b4 bringing /k/ into /sci/
>in b4 /k/ should come to /sci/ more often in order to settle those stupid fucking ballistics/stopping power debates

>>2516619

china has openly declared the future of currency is going to be based on actual industrial value.....
gold value is nearly entirely fiat, this is why it will become worth about what copper is worth

>>2516163
"Money" is something that was invented because it's easier to transport and store than bushels of grain or herds of cattle.

>>2516640
China says all sorts of wild bullshit things that have nothing to do with the reality in which the REST of the world experiences.

>>2516632
>russian action, remanufactured in USA
>Any 7.62x39mm you want
>$739 starting

http://www.k-var.com/shop/home.php?cat=353

>>2516640

The value of gold is based on how hard it is to find it and get it out of the ground. Also, the industrial value of silver is ENORMOUS, to the point where it is currently very undervalued, regardless of inflation. You're a dumb ass.

>>2516668

yea, keep believing in the american dream bubble

its cracking as we speak and many joo's will be sad that day

An item which holds "worth" in modern economies. It is a tool with which one can make transactions.

>>2516687

>how hard it is to get out of the ground

are you retarded? gold price is totally fiat, its industrial value is about the price of copper today

china controls world trade = silver is the new gold, copper is the new silver and gold is the new copper

deal with it, joo's

>>2516712
Gold is also valued as JEWelery

>>2516686

>russian action
clickety clack jiggle the slide back
pour vodka down the barrel
to clean off the mud tracks
dry off the handle, hold your sac
pop in the mag, rata tat tat

>>2516723

are you still Antwerpen?

get with the Ching, niglet.

>>2516294
>>2516417
>>2516589
>>2516640
>>2516700
>>2516712
>>2516723

>>2516686

its a shame it won't take NATO rounds

>how hard it is to get out of the ground

are you re-tarded? gold price is totally fiat, its industrial value is about the price of copper today

china controls world trade = silver is the new gold, copper is the new silver and gold is the new copper

deal with it, joo's

>>2516761
Well have I got a fucking deal for you
(They're out of stock right now though)
http://www.k-var.com/shop/product.php?productid=17014&cat=356&bestseller=Y

>>2516723

are you still Antwerpen?

get with the Ching-Ching, niglet.

>>2516782

OUT OF STOCK! taht must mean evurdybody done bought em all up!

>>2516492
you've got homework to do http://mises.org/books/mespm.pdf

>>2516594
Oh don't I know it's not a free country or market. That is a false choice. It could be hard or difficult to start a business, but while living under your means for two years while working multiple jobs sounds bleak, the end result is capital to invest.

My argument in rap form; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0nERTFo-Sk

You see what happens moot?
You see what happens when you delete /new/?

>>2517038
Why'd he delete /new/? I loved /new/! Fucking nigger loving race traitor... Now where am I gonna find my ethnically diverse rape porn?

>>2517267
Yeah, go away. You're not wanted here.

A miserable little pile of secrets!

>>2516973
So are you actually taking a graduate degree in Austrian economics or what? If so, where?

Money provides three functions

It is a medium of exchange
A store of value
A unit of account

Money can be many things. For the USA, it is the dollar.

>>2517279
Oh man, that's just what the doctor ordered- less people with a sense of humor.

money is a conditioned reinforcer

Fucking money truly is the root of all evil. Why do assholes care about a wad of papers? Maybe this world wouldn't suck so much if we worked for something actually worthwhile. Break your back all day, and what do you get? A bunch of little papers. Can't even write on 'em since it's illegal, fuck.

Hey guys.

In Sweden they just made metal coathangers illegal so I'm trying to be really careful with my girlfriend.

Anyway, I know the risk of condom failure is pretty low, but I'm looking for ways to make it lower.

Basically, condoms are the only thing we have access to (inb4 underage b&).

So normally the problem with wearing multiple condoms (and why it is discouraged) is because friction between the layers causes tears.

I was wondering if this problem could be avoided by putting some sort of lubrication between the layers.

What do you think?

tldr: multiple condoms, lube in between

>>2517290
sup econguy

which school were you brainwashed under? neoclassical, keynesian, marxist?

New Econ Grad student here. Amazing that more than one of us stumbled into /sci/ on one day I know.

I have a few observations and comments after skimming this thread:

1) While it's true that none of the current major economies are still on the gold standard, most banks (esspecially larger tier one banks) will give you gold in exchange for your money. In general this is what we in the economics discipline call SELLING YOU FUCKING GOLD!
In medieveal economies (specifically prior to the publication and acceptance of "the Wealth of Nations") a nations gold reserves were generally considered to be representative of it's economic power since gold was used as a medium of exchange between nations.
It is my understanding that prior to the revelation in the wealth of nations* the value attributed to gold was somewhat intrinsic in nature since gold is a difficult substance to chemically alter ect. Given any chemical transformation it can simply be melted down and re cast into coinage etc (I am certainly not a chemist, so if anyone with more knowledge in this area would like to elaborate or contest this please do).

*Namely that a contries productive capacity (i.e.- land labour and established capital) and not it's gold reserves represented it's true wealth.

2) The views and understanding of the other Econ grad students in this thread are not uncharacteristic of the discipline, but that does not make them authoritative on macroeconomics points. While I am not currently working in the macro field, I can tell you that a number of Economists feel that macro econ is in something of a dark age with leading researchers focusing more on growth and development theory than models related to aggregate interaction and national income determination.
For example, at the moment all leading grad macro texts include at least 3 chapters on the Solow growth model, endogenous growth model and the AK model, wherease the Keynsian Cross, IS/LM and Classical AS/AD models are generally grouped together in a single chapter with no mention of "recent developments" since these models have remained basically untouched since the 1960's.

3) and final point, since this post is already running way too long and no one will read it anyway:
The physical amount of money actually printed these days has very little effect on what we think of as the money supply. For people who are actually interested in understanding money rather than debating crap like wages and the gold standard, a usefull first step is to look up the quantitiy theory of money. Also realise that the interest rate has way more to do with the value of money than any other variable. As a thought experiment, think about credit card companies and debt. In the U.S. there is no limit to the amount of credit a company like visa can issue, which basically means that the money supply is infinate, since Visa can create money whenever someone wants it by issueing them credit (no limit credit cards do exists). The limitation is that, Banks and by extension visa have to clear their books every night, which is why the overnight interest rate is such an important policy parameter when it comes to the value of money.

I attach a caviat to this post on two points... First, I am a little drunk, so take that into account, Second, it has been a very long time since I taught Macro Econ and an even longer time since I took any money and banking classes, so, while the above is sound in logical terms, some the specifics may be off.

Money represents a service or good.

In days gone by, if I built a house and you raised horses, we'd trade one for the other.

But what if I didn't need horses and you didn't need houses, then what?

So instead, to represent the effort done in making the house, I have money, and to represent your ability at raising horses, you have money.

WE then use this representation of our labors to barter with people. So now I can go to the baker and get bread, and he can get your horses, and you can get my house.

WE're all bartering, indirectly.

gold price is totally fiat, its industrial value is about the price of copper today

china controls world trade = silver is the new gold, copper is the new silver and gold is the new copper

deal with it, joo's

I suggest anyone who's interested in banking and money to check out khanacademy's sections on it. He did a great job lecturing about that shit

Fiat it has worth yet it's worthless

>>2520347

no one should waste their time studying analysis of the trade system under american rules

China's gonna remake all the rules in their own image in a couple of years, your knowledge will be obsolete before you graduate

A representation of human labour (or labor)

-Wealth of Nations

Debt.

>>2520394
Ha

Banks quite literally create money from nothing.
Mind was blown the first time I realised this.

>>2520394
Sure.
Just like how everybody thought they would a couple years ago; and then a couple years before that; and then a couple years before that; and then...

>>2520459

China is not gonna make that mistake

gold price is totally fiat, its industrial value is about the price of copper today

china controls world trade = silver is the new gold, copper is the new silver and gold is the new copper

deal with it, joo's

>>2520459
But under strict rules of the federal government as to how much they can create in new loans based on how much base money the banks are holding.

>>2520475

hey remeber when the federal reserve increased the USD supply by ten times a couple of years ago...then a couple of years before that...and a couple of years before that?

>>2520497
You do realise that china regulates their money supply based on the USD right?
They like to keep the exchange rate more or less the same all the time, which means creating more money when the US creates more money

>>2520475

this is really solid logic....kinda how experts predict were gonna have an earthquake and then we never ever have any earthquakes ever again?

>>2520538
Or kinda like how extremist Christians predict the second coming of Christ

>>2520530

You do realize they can change their own regulations? whenever they want? right?

gold price is totally fiat, its industrial value is about the price of copper today

china controls world trade = silver is the new gold, copper is the new silver and gold is the new copper

deal with it, joo's

>>2520552

yea cause economics is more like religion than science? right?

>>2520553
A dollar bill no longer represents a chunk of gold (or any other commodity for that matter).

>>2520475

hey remember when the federal reserve increased the USD supply by ten times a couple of years ago...then a couple of years before that...and a couple of years before that?

>>2520558
I was merely using it an an example to point out the silliness of your post

>>2520563

we'll see what china has to say about that, very shortly...

if the dollar even exists in two years

>>2520565
Oh shit, now we're stuck in a loop.

>>2520567

so do you honestly believe that the current situation is anything even in the same ballpark as when those prior predictions were made a few years ago?

gold price is totally fiat, its industrial value is about the price of copper today

china controls world trade = silver is the new gold, copper is the new silver and gold is the new copper

deal with it, joo's

>Ctrl+f "what is love"
>0 results

you have sorely disappointed me, /sci/

>>2520475

hey remember when the federal reserve increased the USD supply by ten times a couple of years ago....then a couple of years before that...and a couple of years before that?

What is money.

Part 1.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIIAvdJvCes&feature=fvw

Part 2.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f11De4_pGnw&feature=fvw

Part 3.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2rXCEEh8SE&feature=related

Part 4.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvH8Jw_ouR0&feature=related

In b4 hurr durr zeitgeist.

Can anything go faster than light?

http://www.universetoday.com/33752/device-makes-radio-waves-travel-faster-than-light/

?

gold price is totally fiat, its industrial value is about the price of copper today

china controls world trade = silver is the new gold, copper is the new silver and gold is the new copper

deal with it, joo's

>>2520613
"A movie that explains clearly and simple the compicated finacail slavery we are under! "

.....................

Gold is the next bubble
Anyone putting money into gold right now deserves to be a victim of the next recession

it needs some context, and I apologize for any historical inaccuracies but it explains it pretty well. We start out as hunter gatherers. Then move up to agriculture. At first, we only grow enough for ourselves/our communities. Then we get to the point where we have a surplus of whatever it is we are growing/making. Instead of wasting it, we say to our neighbor "You have made more pottery than you need. I need some pottery; what if I give you some of my extra grain in exchange for your extra pottery." Thus trade economics are born. At some point, we decide that it is easier to use some token representing the value of said grain that is given to the potter for his pottery. At first it has an actual value; gold, silver etc. Now we mostly use fiat currency; basically like tickets that have a value based on the fact that people accept them as having value. It is an agreed upon system. but that is not the point. They represent the value of the good we need/wish to own. Not much of a difference between the grain that might have been traded in exchange for the pottery. Though some would beg to differ.

>>2520727
The initial rhetoric is a bit populist, but it still deals with all dilemmas which we encountered in this thread, like the fiat value of rare metals and so on.
Also all the economy is in the end run by banks as seen in the still going depression of 2008, when a collapse of a few American banks, when the people could not pay their debt back.
And name a country that does not have an external debt? Okay maybe the Saudi Arabia due to their oil income but still, the government are paying debts back to the banks with interest and as a taxpayers we're all paying back in actuality.

>mfw the national standard should be silicon because it is literally 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000x more objectively useful than gold
hate. everything.

ITT We assume all money printing is to cover government debts and forget that paper money has a lifespan of less than two years

>>2520800

Gold is a function of the dollar.

The dollar is the bubble.

>>2520972

Gold is a commodity, just like oil, platinum, natural gas, and frozen concentrated orange juice
how nice of you to throw all of economics out the window

>>2520902
>mfw I checked all of my dollar bills and none of them are dated later than 2000
>mfw I'm not even American

Hell, one of them is signed by some guy who was secretary in '46

>>2520985

I agree? Gold is a commodity. Commodities show the true value of currency.

The currency of recognized power.

>>2521009

>>2521009

Err, worth.
I think. I always get those two words mixed up.

>>2520890
>>2520890
>>2520890

u copied my idea

http://www.facebook.com/pages/National-standard-be-silicon-it-is-more-objectively-useful-than-gold/1
70427156336209

>>2521009
comoddities are subject to shit like speculation and supply instability, which wildly drives prices regardless of currency valuation

gold has done nothing but go up lately, because people seem to value it as some sort of financial safe haven, a lifeboat into which they can pour all their money and those damn banks and the damn government can't mess it up

too bad it's all gonna come crashing down around them when the economy gets better and people stop buying gold

>>2521038
>he thinks the economy will ever get better

>>2521038
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703908704575433670771742884.html

>>2521105

Derp, forgot the image that goes with this.

Also, keep in mind. Americans bought less than 2 billion dollars worth of gold last year. They bought 150 billion dollars worth of bonds. By definition, a bubble requires mass public participation.
Which one do you think is the bubble?

>>2521038
QE 3 is on the way because there is no recovery. It's impossible to grow without constant monetary injections in the system because the world economy is based around excessive debt. Just look at the state finances of the USA. You have real debt of 144 trillion dollars. http://www.zerohedge.com/article/245-trillion-us-national-debt-144-trillion-unfunded-liabilities-201
5

There are two ways out of this mess, inflation or default, and for bankers and politicans the choice is easy; it's inflation.

>>2521110
An alternate interpretation is to treat gold as a flat line and compare the dollar to it. I find this much more illustrative.

>An alternate interpretation is to treat gold as a flat line
And that's fucking stupid
Obviously the value of Gold fluctuates

>>2521566
no no ... teach the controversy

>>2521566
If anything treating it as a flatline shows that it fluctuates...

>>2520972
>>2521110
Don't these graphs contradict eachother?

I call it, "Mana"

>>2520347
thanks

>>2521750

No.
One is showing gold adjusted for inflation.
The other is showing gold non-adjusted for inflation.

Both graphs show that gold's price is largely tied to the value/worth of the dollar and not an object of speculation.

Using currency doesn't make any sense really.

Unless your certain currency costs it's amount to make then it's actually worthless but people will still use it.

>>2524513
You best be trolling. Gold price is driven 90% on speculation. Part of the speculation/frenzy that has driven it recently is the marketing-driven belief that gold is an "inflation safe haven". So gold gets a bump sometimes during high inflation because of this belief. But the bump is only as predictable and dependable as the belief. The dependability of the belief is less than or equal to the amount of money put into the marketing that sustains it.

>>2524513

>pretending the value of the dollar itself isn't 100% ENTIRELY based on speculation about the US economy

>>2524536
If your currency cost its value to make, then it would be worthless as currency. You don't get it. Currency is a stand-in for value. It facilitates trade. If it has intrinsic value, then you cannot stabilize its value through controlling supply, and you have a barter system rather than a currency system.

>>2521009
Commodities fluctuate greatly depending on supply and demand, but a general index across most commodities can be useful in showing the value of money. More valuable is the Consumer Price Index, which includes foodstuffs as well as rents and real estate, and finished products, so it's much more broadly based than commodities.

Gold is worthless for showing the value of currency, because it is subject to enormous booms and busts due to investment bubbles.

>>2520972
ur retarded

>What is money
>168 posts and 19 image replies omitted.
wtf?

>>2524551
The value of the dollar has ZERO to do with speculation about the US economy. The dollar value is
US GDP (+ GDP of other countries trading primarily in US dollars) / (dollar supply * dollar velocity).

This is why we can get deflation during recessions, because a recession kills the dollar velocity even more than it kills the GDP. The Fed tries to prevent deflation by increasing dollar supply.

>>2524588
It's a complicated subject

>>2524595

surely your not this dumb?

dollar supply has gone up by nearly 10 times in the last 2-3 years, while GDP has been nearly flat, and yet inflation is still quite low

>>2524603
no its not
money is fancy paper you use to trade in order to get goods or services
srsly

money is a symbolic representation of surplus productivity

surplus productivity, at the level of an individual, is any productivity beyond that needed to meet the essentials of life (food, shelter)

so a simple analogy would be a farmer. they spend time and effort in farming , and time and effort producing tools to farm with, and time and effort maintaining their shelter - all of this is time and effort spent converting unusable resources, into usable resources.

if the farmer lives in an area where unusable resources are scarce then more time and effort must be spent finding them

if the resources are difficult to convert (for example bad soil areas, or little water) the farmer must spend more time and effort in the process of the resources

so far, all the time and effort is being spent in meeting the basic living needs

if the farmer is lucky enough to live where there is an abundance of easy to process resources then the farmer spends less time and effort on meeting his own essential needs

this means he can spend time and effort on producing material he DOESN'T NEED TO IN ORDER TO SURVIVE

this is "surplus", and as the farmer doesn't "need" it he can either use it to give himself extra comforts or barter it with other farmers who produce different things

the point is you can only barter what isn't essential to your own survival.

as a society grows, so does the potential for bartering in surpluses,leading to specialists such as tool makers - the tool-maker relies on many others having surpluses, and his surplus comes only after he's bartered enough tools to meet his own essential needs

and as the barter system becomes increasingly complex and more and more surpluses of DIFFERENT TYPES (so a fisherman has a surplus of fish, a fruit farmer has a surplus of pears, and when the sytem's developed enough a tool-maker has a surplus of tools) money becomes a way of representing surplus

and then it gets really interesting

>>2524683
what is the source on this, it sounds very interesting?

>>2524761
source?! WTF??!!

>>2524607
I think you missed the dollar velocity part of the equation.

>>2524611
That's the answer of someone who hasn't spent any time thinking about what money is or how it works. The more closely you look at it the more complicated it becomes.

>>2524784

so americans have just stopped buying stuff by a factor of 10?

you buy 1/10 of what you did in '07?

get real, that equation is econ 101 cock stroking, the dollar is all speculation....deal with it

>>2524683
I would remove "surplus" from your definition. It is generally not economical for a farmer to trade the portion of his crop that his family can actually eat, because he gets it with zero markup or transportation costs or transaction costs. But he certainly could. Especially modern farmer could and possibly do sell their entire crops and buy everything they eat from supermarkets from the proceeds.

>>2524804
There's no speculation involved in the valuation of the dollar. People who trade dollar futures are too insignificant to influence the value of the dollar, being driven by something as large as the US GDP.

In the past recession dollar velocity did indeed drop by much greater than a factor of 10 for a time when the credit market froze. There were some months before the credit market started picking up again. That was the main time period in which the Fed had to go all out to make dollars available in the economy. It was a big deal.

>>2524811
are you talking about america? and if you are is that because of subsidies? noob asking q's.

>>2524811
Not just america. I don't know a lot about farming, but on a highly automated farm, you have machines that are doing all the picking and processing and whatnot. Maybe you're growing corn and have an automated process turning it into corn meal and corn oil. Or maybe you raise livestock but don't do the butchering yourself, but sell the live cattle to an operation that butchers and packages the meat. Especially in that latter case, the farmer probably isn't eating any of his own meat unless he buys it back after it's been packaged. I guess I'm saying that with larger scales and automation, farming is more specialized than it used to be, so subsisting on what you grow or raise probably doesn't enter into it as much as it used to.

>>2520972
>>2521110
Still think they contradict eachother.
One seems to show gold price following the dollar:
Dollar up = Gold up.
The other seems to show the opposite:
Dollar up = Gold down.

>>2525575
This one >>2520972 only shows gold price, not dollars. Blue is actual price, Red is inflation-adjusted price.

>>2525575
lol at people trying to make sense out of the gold bubble
Its just the dumbfuck biblebelt panicking as usual and feeling like if they don't buy gold they'll be stuck with dollars that are worth the equivalent of Zimbabwean currency in the future

>>2525638

they will be, but gold will be worth 1% or less of its current price....dumbfuck bible belters can't win, but doesn't mean that lots of other people won't lose harder

Here's a harder question,

What is currency?

>>2525665
The only real victims here are the people who want to use gold for legitimate purposes like buying a wedding ring or industrial applications instead of stockpiling it under their underground bomb shelters
Also they will probably lose a ton of money and we will all suffer because of it all over again

>>2516205
>new world order
>must be from /x/ and believes everything he hears on the internet
>on /sci/

>>2524550
>You best be trolling. Gold price is driven 90% on speculation. Part of the speculation/frenzy that has driven it recently is the marketing-driven belief that gold is an "inflation safe haven". So gold gets a bump sometimes during high inflation because of this belief. But the bump is only as predictable and dependable as the belief. The dependability of the belief is less than or equal to the amount of money put into the marketing that sustains it.

I suggest you read the graphs and the WSJ article posted earlier in this thread.
>>2521105
>>2520972
>>2521110

Gold is not speculative. It's nowhere near begin a bubble. It is in a direct relationship to the strength of the dollar. The price of gold may be increasing, but the worth of gold is the exact same. People buy gold because if/when the dollar collapses, they'll be holding something that has worth that can be used in the new currency instead of holding pieces of paper.

Gold isn't necessarily an investment because its prices match the value of the dollar, but it is an inflation-safe haven because of the exact same reason. Gold is the most stable asset in the world.

You can say what you want, but you have an entire market disagreeing with you.

>>2524578

The CPI doesn't include commodities. Commodities are considered a leading indicator of inflation, while the CPI is a lagging indicator.

>>2516973

sounds like there is an austrian itt

Gold is the money of the elites
Silver is the money of gentlemen
Barter is the money of peasants
Fiat Currency (Debt) is the money of slaves

What's in your wallet?
>Deal with it

>>2525687
same as money but doesn't have any intrinsic value and it's value is only based on faith, but since we're in a debt based economy I don't think we have either money nor currency just a bunch of debt debt debt. Damn Jews, they did it again, they're just asking for another holocoaster

>>2527001
neither not either

>troll thread
>hidden like the fist of the motherfucking north star
>open /sci/ the day after
>195 posts and 20 image replies omitted. Click Reply to view.
You guys...

Oh you /sci/ducks go back to your pseudoscience ponderings, and just leave the economic dilemmas to the central bankers, trust us we have a mandate that will take care all of you sheeps..I mean good citizens.

Your's truly,
Eknanreb Neb

It's what buys ugly men women.

When you say money is debt do you mean that the holder is in debt or society is in debt to the holder of the money?

>>2528183
the entire society is in debt to the one who controls the issuance of currency: the central bank/federal reserve/IMF/Rockefellers/Rothschilds. Because the gubermint borrows currency from them by selling treasury bonds (gov't debt + interest = compounded debt crisis over 9000). Guess where your tax money goes-------> to the National Debt.

>>2528385
So, what's so good about treasury bonds?
Buying bonds puts the gov in debt to me and it puts me in the same position as the Rockerfellers. Why is this a good position?

>>2516163
Necessary,
Science. Isn't.