/sci/ - Science & Math

But if fossil fuels are in existence, there must have been sun at some point. With sun we can still use solar energy no?

>lets say we ran out of Fossil fuel and there is no other potential substitute..

Is this a hypothetical, or are you actually saying that there is no substitute?

>>2517203
>lets say we ran out of Fossil fuel and there is no other potential substitute..
>no other potential substitute
Just what the hell does that mean?

>>2517228
>>2517227
dude, that means we didnt achieve fusion, and fission wasnt able to cover the energy input coal+gas+oil give.

yeah its hypothetical, dont you know how to fucking read?

>>2517251
>implying fission and fusion are the only substitutes for fossil fuels

>>2517278
>believes that the heavy industry can be powered with decentralized sources of energy

>>2517251
Ignorant hypotheticals piss me off. I'll just ignore the "no substitute" part, because it is meaningless.

Anyway, peak oil will see the beginning of a period where demand will outstrip supply, leading to steady and permanent rise in the price of oil. Then alternatives to oil will become comparatively cheaper, and we will switch over the course of a decade or two. It may suck, but it will work out just fine, and we can always burn coal as a last resort.

>>2517292
>implying all non-nuclear energy sources are decentralized

Why did you make such retarded hypothetical scenario? Why not assume that everyone could photosynthesise as well?

>>2517292
>implying fission is the only way to power heavy industry
God damn the herp. You're right that industry needs concentrated power though. Between fission, coal, hydroelectric, large-scale solar thermal power, and others, we'll be fine. If all else fails, just burn more coal.

>>2517292
Yay~

So is everyone just ignoring coal now or what?

>>2517304
What if humans could be made capable of photosynthesis, through genetic modification or replacement of skin cells or some other treatment?

>>2517328
Waste of time. Might as well just put that effort into something you can leave in the sun.

>>2517297
>>2517305
why the hell are you talking like fucking fossil fuels are infinite (fossil fuels include coal you fucking cock sucking retards)

>>2517302
putting aside how costly is to produce energy through non centralized systems (solar, eolic, tidal, geothermal etc), you are forgetting that the distribution from this sources is very costly. not to even mention the technical difficulties that represent to provide the energy to heavy industry for their processes.

1 single foundry that melts iron to produce something as fucking iron beams consumes the same amount of energy as the entire residential and commercial district of a middle size city. (250,000 pop)

so dont be a fucking retard.

>>2517358
>(fossil fuels include coal you fucking cock sucking retards)
OH GOD THE DERP
You don't have any IDEA how much coal we have, do you? And how that's very, very different from oil?

jesus christ the fact that we ran out of a concentrated is a possibility, isnt not even the issue here.

Im saying how a society would look like if it has severe energetic constrains.

i come here to have a eloquent discussion, and all i got are uneducated responses from fucking high schoolers.

Do yourselves a favor and stop reading your fucking bullshit of right or left wing political propaganda, and help yourselves an actual fucking science book that deals with the issue.

yeah im mad

>>2517203
actually what you have to say has a lot of merit. people act like you can put fucking sunshine in a combustion engine and make it run.

Alternative energy is a joke because of how much resources we have invested in out current infrastructure. We don't have the energy to make a global transition away from fossil fuels. Especially if we want an exactly duplicated alternative energy infrastructure (transportation, industry, lighting at night, electronics, cooking, etc.)

We're deluded and fucked.

Pic related, American cars of tomorrow.

>>2517381
Funny. I came to this thread for the same thing, and found only an arrogant, belligerent fucktard with the word "nigger" in his tripcode.

>>2517227
>>2517228
You can't make a car run on anything else but fossil fuels. So much of our infrastructure relies on fossil fuels.

You expect to build all new alternative energy power plants, then all new factories, then all new tools, then all new vehicles, etc etc?

Protip: The reality is, there IS NO POTENTIAL SUBSTITUTE.

>>2517387
Between biofuels, batteries, and possibly hydrogen fuels, we can make it work. I agree that transportation, and not other power needs, are the main concern. Transportation costs will go up, sure. But we'll work it out.

Really guys, do you think something like modern society is entirely impossible without fossil fuels?

What if I did not cum in OP's mother's vagina but cummed in her mouth? What difference would it have made?

>>2517370
actually, if you're referencing US coal, its much less than you're blithely told. Not so much in quantity, but in accessibility. Much of it is too energy intensive to get to to make it worth it, or happens to be in protected ecological zones (we really don't have too many more of those yknow).
Estimates taking this into account, (which seems kind of hard to reach a realistic view without doing) suggest a peak coal point within the next 20-30 years.
Look into it.

>>2517402
>You can't make a car run on anything else but fossil fuels.

False.

We would have energy problem if the world's population were quartered.

>>2517402
>You can't make a car run on anything else but fossil fuels.
Wow, where have you been for the past decade?

>>2517418
Damnit, NO energy problem, NO energy problem. Damned skipping words.

>>2517408
Coal is not infinite, but it is enough to be a last resort to power us through a quick transition to sustainable energy sources.

Even without any such energy sources at all, modern society would arise. Just more slowly.

>>2517370
>You don't have any IDEA how much coal we have, do you? And how that's very, very different from oil?

> Believes harnessing coal would always be a cheap and easy task to do.
> Claims coal is infinite
> Thinks only in its own scale of time,
> Thinks something as a coalmine would still exist in 200 hundred or 1000 years.

kill yourself now

>>2517424
That really depends on which quarter goes, now doesn't it?

>>2517419
He means efficiently. Also, since all alternative energies either can't work in large scales or ultimately consume MORE fossil fuels in their manufacture, futile.

>>2517438
Yeah, no.

Go keep herping you fatalists, there are perfectly good methods that will work, even if the US standard of living has to drop a bit. It's high time anyway.

>>2517403
You can't make a gasoline engine run on "biofuels", only diesel can run on biofuels dumbass. Now, think of how many gasoline cars there are in America. You expect everyone to go out and buy a brand new car?

Also batteries need rare minerals, like lithium. An electric car needs about a dozen batteries.

And where does the electricity come from? Unicorn farts?

What are you going to use to lubricate the engines and machinery?

Biofuels would take up like 90% of our landmass in America (not cropland, landmass) to keep up with our consumption.

STUPID, STUPID, STUPID!

As long as there's power, you can make fuel for transportation. Or just store energy in batteries.

As long as we have enough power, we will be fine. That's a tall order, but it's possible. It will take a little of everything. And it's not like there's not enough power - we only use a very small fraction of the Earth's energy budget. But harnessing more of it will take time and effort.

>>2517449
>85% of the energy sources in the US comes from fossil fuels

btw im not saying is the fucking end of the world. im talking about how would a energetic constrain in our society would affect us.

JESUS IS NOT EVEN FUCKING HARD.

its almost like you faggots only read the first sentence

>>2517460
Please. You're barking up the wrong tree.

Instead of becoming a doomsday prophet, how about you flip it around and start asking "what should we be doing"? None of the problems you raise are unsolvable.

>>2517437
Yes. It does.

I say we get rid of the trailer trash first, since they have about the productivity of third-worlders with much larger energy demands, and are sociologically dangerous.

IQ under 100? No lasting or remotely worthwhile contributions to society at large? Then you can't have kids.

>>2517416
Fucking moron, I mean a currently existing car with a gasoline engine. If you rip out the engine and make a new one and rig it to run in the old shell of the car YOU MIGHT AS WELL MAKE A NEW FUCKING CAR.

Stupid child.

>>2517468
>its almost like you faggots only read the first sentence
Yeah, about that. Your first sentence was retarded.
>lets say we ran out of Fossil fuel and there is no other potential substitute..

>>2517477
Cars only have a market lifetime of a decade, maybe two TOPS anyway. We ALREADY replace cars all the time. Why do you think replacing cars is some impossible task? We do it constantly.

>>2517419
NOT EVERYONE IS GOING TO BE ABLE TO BUY A NEW CAR. THERE ISN'T ENOUGH FOSSIL FUELS TO MAKE EVERYONE A NEW CAR.

wake the fuck up.

>>2517477
A currently existing car with a gasoline engine can run on a wood gasifier. No new engine required. That's an example of a conversion to an fossil fuel alternative. It's not at all practical for mass use, of course.

>>2517492
>NOT EVERYONE IS GOING TO BE ABLE TO BUY A NEW CAR.
Why not? They were able to buy one the first time, and no one goes through their life with only one car in the US.
>THERE ISN'T ENOUGH FOSSIL FUELS TO MAKE EVERYONE A NEW CAR.
Fatalism much? Cars will just become more expensive.

>>2517468
They don't understand how it directly relates to something as simple as food.

Everyone, imagine eating 85% less food and having 85% less heat in wintertime. You'd all fucking die.

>>2517502
>spoiled suburban-raised hipster brat detected.

ITT: Some American teenagers who can't imagine life without the huge amounts of wealth and luxury from oil-guzzling

Guys, it will work out just fine. Maybe you won't have all the luxuries you'd like to expect. But that's fine, your grandparents didn't have what you expect either, not to mention your great-grandparents.

>>2517502
>Cars will just become more expensive.

Forcing more people to rely on mass transit. Which is great!

>>2517519
Nah, you've got it backwards.

You see, this thread is full of teenagers who can't imagine life without huge amounts of wealth. I can. But it's not like cars will cease to exist - they will just be more expensive, as will transportation costs.

>>2517522
Guess we can say goodbye to Apple.

>>2517502
...
You just absolutely refuse to acknowledge something that may shake up your life don't you?

Seriously man, this is gonna be really rough on you.

>>2517508
>implying we'll stop using oil without investing in any other energy infrastructure at all using the money that once went to oil
Besides, Americans could stand to eat less.

>>2517538
LOL
You seem to have misjudged me. I could have my income cut in half and get by just fine, and I'm a graduate student.

Try living in a third-world country sometime. It gives a lot of perspective. Like Bolivia.

whats stupid about it?

I already show to you that running out of fossil fuels MIGHT be a fucking possibility. so its worthy of discussing how a society with severe energetic constrains would look like

>>2517501
>It's not at all practical for mass use, of course.

And thus the weakest link in all alternative energy. There is always a steep draw back.

We're coming against basic laws of the universe at full speed. You cannot create energy. We're cheating, we've been using energy from the sun that has built up as fossil fuels the past 300 million years. It's going to fall flat on it's fucking face.

>>2517560
But that will merely change the rate of growth. The advance of human civilization has largely been about increasing the budget of harnessed energy. Once oil is gone, we'll have come through a short and temporary burst of higher-than-normal growth. But our technology and infrastructure are still here, and as long as we get moving on the new infrastructure before it's too late, the transition will be fairly smooth. If we don't, the transition will be rocky and marked with a depression, from which point we will continue advancing from as we harness more of the Earth's sustainable energy income. And Earth's energy budget is quite ample.

>>2517522
This isn't about being spoiled and having luxuries. American society doesn't have the infrastructure to jump to an agricultural society overnight. We couldn't even make the transition in 10 years if we needed to.
How many beasts of burden do we have? How many people are ready to plow fields all day? How many people know how to run a farm without modern machines and pesticides and fertilizer? How do you ship food nationwide with no fossil fuels?
Millions of people would die in the first year we didn't have a steady supply of fossil fuels.

Look up the Ukrainian holocaust for a preview. This isn't going to turn out well.

>>2517530
you do realize the consequences of people having less money, right?

It's not just "Oh damn, I can't buy an iPad" it's more like "I'm starving to death and I can't afford transportation to work if there was any"

>you're still a spoiled brat for not understanding that

>>2517587
The Earth has a big "energy budget" yes, but a homeless man isn't entitled to go and eat what he wants at a local supermarket.

It doesn't matter that the energy is there or not, it's "do we have the fucking infrastructure or the energy to make a new infrastructure?" The answer is easily "NO"

But you go buy a fucking Prius. Go right ahead. You'll "change the world" you gullible bleeding heart faggot.

>>2517598
>>2517610
You people talking about America starving are just crazy. I understand how much we rely on fossil fuels for various agricultural power needs, but really guys - America is never going into starvation mode just because of running out of oil. There ARE alternative energy sources, and even if more than half of the US energy budget has to be sacrificed, there's still plenty for making and transporting food. It's one of the most fertile countries in the world, and certainly not overpopulated.

Some other countries with much higher population densities might be another story.

>>2517644
>"do we have the fucking infrastructure or the energy to make a new infrastructure?" The answer is easily "NO"
>bleeding heart faggot.
??
Anyway, you're wrong. See how I've given just as much support as you have?

>>2517598
>beasts of burden
Oh what the fuck.

I don't think you guys are even trying to be reasonable here. At least talk about coal-fired tractors or something. God damn.

ITT: Fatalist teenagers
I'd like to hear just one of you suggest something constructive, even given your doomsday prophecies.

>>2517649
Tractors need oil for lubrication and for fuel. How are you going to keep up the food supply with no tractors and modern harvesters?

Also how do you transport all of the food in America with no fossil fuels?

In winter, stupid spoiled Americans get produce shipped from thousands of mile away from South America. Check the little stickers on your fruit if you don;t believe me. And that food needs to be shipped from the ports over hundreds of miles inland to super markets. No one is ready to stock up like some old mountain hillbilly for 7 months of snow.

If we run out of fuel, people will start to starve. They'll start to starve before when produce costs $20.00+ a pound.

>>2517667
There is no such thing as a coal engine. Do you mean a steam engine? A steam engine tractor? Really?
>FULL RETARD.

>>2517682
You are aware that there are synthetic oils that do need crude oil for production?

>>2517690
I have only sympathy for you for the told you are about to receive. I'm sorry, but it's for your good.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_tractor

>>2517675
It's like you think you can just talk your way out of a heroin detox. It doesn't work that way. We're going to shake, want to die, throw up and cry for days.

>>2517701
He's too entrenched in his doomsday dogma. At least you and I can be part of the solution.

>>2517690
Tractors were originally run by steam engines.

>>2517710
The US is not going to starve. But I'm sure many American will whine as if they were.

I never said the transition wouldn't be painful. But it's not the end of modern society.

>>2517702
Excellent, lets go bravely forward into the 21st century with a refurbished 19th century steam fucking tractor. I'm sure we can feed millions with that just one too.

>implying props at the fucking county fair will undo the staggering fossil fuel clusterfuck we're heading into.

>>2517735
You're sounding really, really fucking desperate right now. Are you going to prophecy more destruction, or would you like to contribute something helpful about what should be done?

>After this long distance trade is going to emerge by highly efficient trading networks --due to energy scarcity-- that are capable of distributing goods with very little energy consumption compared to this days.

I'd expect that long distance transport would be greatly reduced - probably to primarily just people and mail. It'd be carried out in much the same way that it was carried out three centuries ago: large sailing vessels. However, they'd probably be made out of aluminum this time around.

My $0.02.

>>2517749
I agree that long-range transport costs will go up. But saying we'll rely on wind alone is incredibly pessimistic. Are you forgetting coal? Again?

And then there's all the fuels that can be made from arbitrary energy sources, sustainably. More expensive than oil, certainly, but that's a given.

>>2517743
There is nothing to be done for society. I can do something personally, and it involves not being in America when 300 million people are starving and angry.

Good fucking luck to you, I have my own plans. I have less than 15 years too.

>>2517758
>oils running out! Make everything coal!

So you want to start the whole problem over again?

Solar thermal collectors don't require any advanced technology, using steam turbines to produce electricity. From there you can make just about anything. Not to mention fuel-creation routes that are biological.

But corn ethanol was always a retarded idea.

>>2517773
It's a last resort. But I realize that if I start talking to any of the luddites ITT about sustainable alternatives, they'll just laugh and keep prophesying destruction.

>>2517765
>I can do something personally, and it involves not being in America when 300 million people are starving and angry.
>implying anywhere else will be better
OH WOW
I get it now. It's just more US hating. It's not about the oil-energy crisis at all.

Trolling aside, the first book in this series has a global government with a monopoly on an unstoppable weapon oppressing the majority of humanity by drastically limiting available power.

The result is that they travel by horse, live in pseudo-medieval communities, but still have very powerful, low energy electronics and software.

>>2517775
>Solar thermal collectors
Hell yes.

>>2517796
http://www.thegreentechnologyblog.com/2010/solar-thermal-generated-electricity-future-dominating-tec
hnology/

Now this is useful. Damn fatalist teenagers, whining instead of talking about solutions.

>>2517783
The United States is different. We rely heavily on imports. We consume 50% of the world's resources. When those resources stop coming, we'll feel it worse than anyone else.

There are a handful of nations that are self reliant and will be overlooked when the shit hits the fan.

you stick to America though. My idea won't work if most people catch on. I'm expecting complacency and apathy from everyone else to succeed.

>run out of fossil fuel
Never gonna happen, OP. Even if it theoretically gets a lot more scarce in the future, all that will happen is the price will go up and those who get less efficient use out of it will get pushed out of affording it, having to resort to some sort of alternative (you can never say there is no other substitute, even horse and buggy would be a substitute at a certain price point.)

ITT: OP tries to get philosophical and gets held back by being a fucking retard

>>2517790
Oh whoops, you forgot a link to the book:
http://www.mediafire.com/?ymkm3zzgtmy

I keep trying to think of some way to use the internet to coordinate some sort of large-scale effort to build sustainable infrastructure, like some sort of intentional community generating network in which people agree to help eachother get the necessary tech. But HOW would such a thing be structured? HOW could broke people possibly be given the ability to construct alternative infrastructure?

>>2517810
What was your idea again?

But I agree that the US standard of living will probably drop. The rich will probably see the return of progressive taxes in the ensuing shitstorms. And I'm fine with both of those things.

>>2517783
Also, Americans will wait for that "OH SHIT" moment when gas prices are over $30 a gallon before they do anything about it. And by then it'll be too little too fuckin' late.

You doubt this fact? Do you even understand America at all?

>>2517818
uh what?
There are plenty of blogs and forums about DIY self-sufficiency projects. Don't reinvent the wheel.

>>2517819
I'm not telling you my idea. Fuck you guys.

>>2517824
I've worked in US national labs. Apparently you don't know anything about where government research money has been going. Alternative energy is the DOE's #1 priority now. I agree that it's not enough yet, but "America" is hardly "waiting".
And individual citizens? Why should they switch to a Nissan Leaf right now?

>>2517828
hahaha
Just about what I expected. See you when you grow up, kid.

>>2517832
Our government will have that as a top priority only until a Republican is back in the White House. The GOP is already wanting to get rid of the DOE in the name of fiscal responsibility.

American politics will keep alternative energy from going anywhere significant. The coal companies and the oil companies are extremely rich and rely on the status quo. They can lobby better than anyone. This won't change. We're going to hit a brick wall full speed.

>>2517848
Like I'm going to invite everyone to eat food out of my secret cabin as a ploy to save the world when we run out of fossil fuels.

There are no solutions for "everyone". There are solutions for just me though.

>>2517874
The transition came BEFORE Obama.

And even if your emphasis on the power of certain lobbyists is justified, America is not going to starve. I can't believe people are even suggesting that. Only one in 400 of us even works in farming. Remarkably little of our efforts are needed to feed ourselves. And if it takes a little more focus when oil is gone, or even a lot more, that's fine. It may suck, but it will not be the end of modern civilization.

>>2517878
Get out. You're not needed. Enjoy your cabin.

>>2517825
>>2517825
>>2517825

I'm not talking about instructions, here, I'm talking about a system of cooperation. Hell, maybe an artificial economy, I don't know.

>>2517888
>Only one in 400 of us even works in farming.
ignoring illegal mexicans

>implying people will stop their jobs and go harvest crops
>implying starving mobs of people won't just raid farms and destroy everything
>implying america doesn't import most of the food it's people consume from south america

>>2517910
I have an idea. Why don't we talk about what the graph of oil prices over time will look like?

I think that when we start to hit peak oil, oil prices will at least triple over the following decade. In the decade after that, ten times higher than original. During those decades, the transitions will be made. There will be oil - but it will be expensive.

And America would still be more than capable of feeding itself. Priorities shift quickly when food goes up five times in price.

>>2517936
I think it'll more look like slowly boiling a lobster from a cold pot. But NO, it'll be a 19th century modern(?) paradise.

>>2517957
When oil gets more expensive than the next-best alternative, there will be a switch. The slow-boiling analogy makes the problem less intense, not worse.

As for the whole 19th-century thing: We'll still have all our other modern power methods, as well as modern electronics. Although prices may go up. So, steampunk maybe. With electronics.

>no other potential substitute..

There are, they just aren't heavily mass produced yet. There are fungi and bacteria that can produce complex hydrocarbons which can be used as fuels. Many of which have high rates of returns.

Additionally a lot of fuel has alcohol in it now. Right now the fuel in the us has up to 10% ethanol alcohol in it.

Biodiesel is another good fuel substitute. Don't know too much about it but it is another promising addition.


Give it 20 or 30 years and we'll be making all of our fuel. It may not be the best environmental solution but it's the simplest/cheapest solution given our current infrastructure system.

With the increased fuel efficiency cars and better electric and hybrid cars the environmental factors will improve.
When electrical cars can get miles/charge as standard cars can get miles/tank and have some quick recharge means to make long distance travels possible then I can see a switch from our current standard. But that will probably take just as long, unless some major tech changes happen in the near future.

>>2517971
in my analogy, the lobster (America) dies because it is slowly cooked.

>>2517996
If the price of oil rises slowly, that just gives more time for the switch. And the switch WILL happen, as soon as oil becomes more expensive than the other options. It's not like industry won't jump ship to a cheaper option. They do it all the time. Why do you think we use high-fructose corn syrup instead of sugar?

It's not a case of not paying attention. Companies care about profit.

http://knol.google.com/k/biofuel-from-algae#

It is a good day to die

ITT: The Venus Project

>>2518300
See
>>2517909
And also see John Robb's Global Guerrillas blog.
And also go read Daemon because it's a fucking excellent book.

>>2518313
...except that stuff is nothing at all like the Venus Project.

>>2518313

>>2518313
Also
>>2517818
is already in the works.

>>2518344
Is it, then?

Could I get a link?

>>2518358
Currently the project is just in the early recruiting and basic planning stages, meaning that real shit will not begin until 2020 when I have amassed the funding required for our operations. Here is (a seemingly little-known) site someone whipped up for the project.

http://technocraticrepublic.freeforums.org/index.php

>>2518373
How do you guys feel about rolling up your sleeves and getting your hands dirty?

>>2518375
Quite okay, but the timescale this will be done on means that this will be kept to a minimum through the use of human-level AI robots/automation.

>>2518384
Yeah, about that human-level AI and automation. You don't start out with those, so make sure you don't rely on them to start either.

>>2518373
>http://technocraticrepublic.freeforums.org/purchasing-tasmania-t11.html
u srs bro? rly?
How old are you?

>>2518389
The entire plan depends on that very automation. No automation = no TRS.

>>2518414
Pray tell me, how was nearly every other piece of land for a country obtained?
"This ours now"

Petroleum is up there with obsidian spear tips, bronze/iron, agriculture, the wheel, the bow and arrow, etc.
you have no idea how many industries absolutely positively depend on the existence of "cheap" petroluem for their existence....

semiconductors

pharmaceuticals (all of them)

an extremely large range of industrial technologies...


all of these EVAPORATE with the disappearance of petroleum....
but it doesnt really matter anyway... we will never truly "run out" of petroleum...


it will just get to the point where it is too expensive to be used as an energy source....


tar, shale, and other difficult to extract sources will always exist, and will always supply our need for the chemicals we need to exist as a technological society

>>2518373
Damnit, you got my hopes up. I've been there. It's retarded.

I was talking about something that could be done NOW, with no money. A way to get all of the bored NEETs, degree-holders who just can't get hired, and burger flippers dissatisfied with their lives in an area to collaborate on building things like wind turbines and composting toilets with a box of scraps (much like Tony Stark in a cave). Gardening would, of course, also be important.

But HOW to do it? Is it even possible to get junk machines for virtually no money? How could you get a wide variety of people to work together when they're not being paid for it? I mean, you can pay them in your own virtual currency, but for obvious reasons that wouldn't have the same psychological effect.

>>2518447
Reposting with an image so that people will actually read it.

It's never good to post a tl;dr with no image right below another tl;dr with no image.
>>2518373
Damnit, you got my hopes up. I've been there. It's retarded.

I was talking about something that could be done NOW, with no money. A way to get all of the bored NEETs, degree-holders who just can't get hired, and burger flippers dissatisfied with their lives in an area to collaborate on building things like wind turbines and composting toilets with a box of scraps (much like Tony Stark in a cave). Gardening would, of course, also be important.

But HOW to do it? Is it even possible to get junk machines for virtually no money? How could you get a wide variety of people to work together when they're not being paid for it? I mean, you can pay them in your own virtual currency, but for obvious reasons that wouldn't have the same psychological effect.

>>2518428
If you think you're going to take territory from Australia by force, you're really deluded. Especially when property in Tasmania doesn't cost much. You need to at least start out that way.

>>2518447
That would be far harder.

>>2518489
What would?

>>2518470
Pretty sure I won't have the money to buy what is currently considered a national park

>>2518496
Getting together with no money with today's technology to build a modern society.

>>2518499
If you don't have money to buy land, you don't have money for anything else either, and it would take you quite a while to be self-sufficient. And if it IS a national park, you've got entirely new problems.

tl;dr You need capital, and you need to work within the system at least at first. It's either that or your shanty-town becomes a ghost town once you're arrested for tax evasion. That's what would happen once you go from dirt-farmer to someone even remotely successful. It's quite a way from there to "taking Tasmania by force".

>>2518524
>tl;dr longer than the rest
LOL, sorry about that.

I'd love for you to be successful, but frankly this sounds like an ill-conceived pipedream that you'll never actually act on. And that's for the better, being ill-conceived and all.

>>2518489
>anything at all
>harder than setting up a new sovereign nation-state with less than ten billion dollars or so
>MFW

That is the hardest thing. Really. It's the last boss of IRL.

Ok, maybe creating a comprehensive theory of human consciousness thus triggering the singularity would be harder, but I can't think of anything other than that.

Getting basement dwellers to work together would be difficult but what you're talking about is just stupid hard.

>>2518533
>That is the hardest thing. Really. It's the last boss of IRL.
Nice phrasing. +1

>>2518506
Nobody's talking about building a modern sovereign state that way. They're talking about preparing for peak oil that way. Nobody even moves anywhere, they just stay where they live currently and build this shit that would allow a person to comfortably survive an oil crisis.

>>2518542
IMO some food storage (like 6 months), a small garden, and solar water heaters get you a large part of the way there. But I really don't think there's a need to go full-survivalist.

http://www.ranken-energy.com/Products%20from%20Petroleum.htm

>talk about fossil fuel
>talk only cars

>>2518563
That list is retarded. It's a walking fallacy, because it is obviously trying to imply that those things cannot be produced without oil.

But if you'll agree that's not the case, I don't have a problem with the list. We currently use petroleum for a lot of things. It's cheap.

>>2518542
Also, I was considering that it could serve as an early version of one of these: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diamond_Age#Phyles

but it's not a deal-breaker if I couldn't pull that off.

Inurdaes, stop wanken.

JESUS CHRIST IM ASHAMED OF THIS FUCKING THREAD

seriously, i cant even believe how retarded are the people posting here, i already explain my position countless times, but no one fucking reads anything, they just read the words "fossil fuel" and "no other potential substitute" and inmediately start writting they verbatim arguments.


KILL YOURSELF FUCKING NOW, you guys are incapable of processing information, you are attention spans are shorter than fucking fish.

i could delete this thread, but i wont just to be used as evidence of how fucking narrow minded and retarded the general /sci/ poster is.

>>2518660

>>2518660
Wow.

If my estimation of anyone has decreased, it's you.

>>2518660
You suck at everything you intended to accomplish ITT. Also, you might want to look into this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

>>2518676
i explain my argument cleary here

>>2517203
>>2517381
>>2517429
i keep saying that arguing about the scarcity of fossil fuels was stupid and pointless, and out of the scope of what i was asking for here, i never said it was the fucking end of the world either.

>>2517468
>>2517558

and i still i keep getting the same responses.


i do everything i can, seriously if /sci/ is incapable of fucking reading. then theres very little i can do.

>>2517587
>>2517649
>>2517749
>>2517758
>>2517790
>>2517810
>>2517832
>>2518300
>>2518344
>>2518432


thanks for the true contributors of this thread, you guys manage to see over the derp wars and actually give a real response :)

This is why I hate tripfags.

>>2517682
Graphite's a pretty good lubricant. Just sayin'.

Are all you niggers forgetting the fact that we use oil for everything?

Synthetic nitrogen, clothing, tires, plastics (which is a huge contributer to all modern medicine) - the list goes on and fucking on.

Without oil everything changes.

We no longer eat, you can't support 10 billion + people once oil reaches levels unattainable for mass consumption.

Mass starvation and death is imminent. Even some of the most positive projections don't see a way out of not having synthetic fossil fuels.