/sci/ - Science & Math

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What the fuck happened to that paragraph?

We will probably need to genetically modify life to survive on mars, the temperature is well below freezing, the atmosphere is too thin and there is very little sunlight.

Buddy, we don't even have enough money to terraform small deserts, let alone the Sahara, let alone another motherfucking planet.

tl;dr Do you have $40,000,000,000,000,000,000? There isn't even that much money on Earth

>>2503550
Mars, ikke Venus.

Start with the moon. NASAs already on it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LCROSS

Isn't terraforming mars impossible without a magnetic field? I'm no expert but I think magnet fields prevent atmospheric loss to solar winds and without one building an atmosphere would be pointless. Although I guess you could create localized protection against the radiation and solar winds but you'd still have to put your stuff under a dome or something to keep the atmosphere from escaping.

Mars cannot be a second Earth. It is too small for that. It's not going to be habitable anytime soon, either, since we would need to either generate a planetary magnetic field as a barrier against solar wind, then build up an atmosphere, or build up an atmosphere faster than the sun can strip it off. In the latter case you'd still have radiation to deal with, and the climate would not be very hospitable anyway.

The best course of action is to build infrastructure mostly underground at first, and then branch out to the surface once an industrial base is established.

>>2503570
This.

Also, we won't even be *colonizing* Mars, let alone terraforming Mars, until we've done the same to the less-hospitable regions of *this* planet. Not just deserts either - try large cities in Antarctica. It's a hell of a lot more hospitable than Mars.

>>2503529

why colonize mars?

its so hot.

why not colonize the moon (earth's) first?

Colonizing Mars is going to be like setting up a city in a mexican desert.

Its going to be hot and full of shit.

>>2503606
>>2503602
>mars
>hot
What the hell? Mars is really fucking cold.
...
Oh god, I'm think I've been trolled! Someone call the police!

Also, the moon is worse than Mars in EVERY respect but proximity, both to us and the sun.

>>2503602
>>2503606

what

>>2503551

Norwegians happened to it.

>>2503578
>try large cities in Antarctica.

Can we do this? Sounds neat.

>>2503647
Yes, it is possible. A lot more feasible than building a colony on Mars currently. Though, as has been said, you can avoid lots of the problems with Mars by building the first colony underground.

I wonder what the biggest problem with building an Antarctic city would be. Maybe power, followed by materials, followed by establishing a contained ecosystem that would keep people fed.

>>2503661

Also, think about the major political disagreements.

>>2503661
Power can be provided by nuclear reactors. McMurdo Station used one a while ago, but I think it just uses diesel generators now.

>>2503683

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonization_of_Antarctica

>(...)there are problems with the idea of having an atomic driven generator giving the power and temperature regulation. The atomic reactor at McMurdo Station became a pollution hazard and hence was closed down long ago.

>>2503678
Well, we do have the continent already basically divided up.
http://mappery.com/Antarctica-Political-Map-2005

>>2503691
They aren't really recognized internationally, though.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antarctic_Treaty_System

>>2503691

If humans decide to colonize Antarctica, there's no way those old sketchy claims are gonna hold.

>>2503706
I wonder if there will be a war over Antarctic territory. It would be kind of ridiculous.

>>2503712
Well, the land isn't valuable right now. And I don't see it becoming valuable just because of living space - but maybe some strategic value?

>>2503712

South Americans and Australians would obviously have a major advantage anyway.

>>2503718
Maybe there's oil there.

>>2503718
Give it 200 years. Also, global warming is nonsense, but let's not go there.

>>2503732
Proximity only helps if you've got the military force to secure your supply lines, and deny such supply to others.

>>2503744

And that's exactly what the best South American nations (Argentina, Brazil, Chile and Uruguay) and Australia have.

>>2503612
>Mars is really fucking cold.
Then how come it's red?

Damn norwegians. What have you contributed to the world except vikings and minnesota?

>>2503794
I'm guessing cause of the Iron?

>>2503794
Black body theory applies to objects that radiate light of certain wavelengths. Mars does not radiate, but rather reflects.

The red color is due to ferric oxides, also known as the mineral Hematite, or Rust.

>>2503794
It's red because all the TVs the martians watch emit low frequency light, and that results from Mars moving further away from Earth. This is known as the Doppler effect.

>>2503804
One of the model nations on the planet.
http://www.ifitweremyhome.com/compare/US/NO

>>2503816
To clarify further, Mars *does* radiate, but only in the infrared (low-energy/long-wavelength, because Mars isn't that hot). Same with Earth.

>>2503804
The Nobel peace prize.

..no wait, that was a Swede. Um... The cheese slicer?

>>2503829
oh wow

>>2503804
>yfw you realize that norwegians are just snow niggers

>>2503852
haters gonna hate
>>2503829
>>2503846

We can't even control the atmosphere of our own fucking planet, let alone mars.

>>2503865
We could, we just aren't doing it. We could use various techniques to pull CO2 out of the air and sequester the carbon in some solid or liquid chemical form.

>>2503852

>mfw I read this

>>2503859
>mfw new york city is infinitely better than every square centimeter of norway

but seriously, the U.S. as a whole sucks but we have pockets of the best shit in the world. I wouldn't live anywhere else but the city.

>>2503846

>mfw when they don't tell you how much more you'd have to pay in taxes

>mfw when they don't tell you that everything is far more expensive, negating the advantage of having a higher income

>mfw when I'm not even American and this made me rage

>>2503908
It's GDP per capita. Try going to the site next time, faggot.

>>2503888
>implying you've ever visited Norway
lol

>>2503846

>mfw Norway has a smaller population that Philadelphia.

>>2503553
Print more money.

>>2503924
u mad?

>>2503939
And yet they're kicking your asses.

>>2503916

They picked the statistic that showed the biggest gap in GDP. How convenient.

And never mind that PPP is, as they say, difficult to compute. PPP frequently underestimates the cost of living in Europe: that's obvious to anyone who looks at how much things (be they groceries, fuel, technology, etc) cost in the US compared to Western European countries.

I just went to the site too, and it suggested that the standard of living in the UK is better than that in the US. That alone is enough to tell me and any other British person that it's bullshit.

>>2503958

Lol. False. Its an absurd comparison. Why dont we mention Lichtenstein. Their GDP per capita is more than double Norway.

>>2503978

Liechtenstein

>>2503958

Or if we were to comapre the state of Connecticut to Norway, it has about the same population, gdp, and standard of living.

Norway has under 5 million people. It is the fifth largest oil exporter and third largest gas exporter in the world. They have a resource based economy, their success has nothing to do with their socailst ass government. Just like Liechtenstien isnt successful because of its government. These are tiny countries, get a grip.

>>2504012
>They have a resource based economy, their success has nothing to do with their socailst ass government
>resource based economy
Oh god what

Besides, what's wrong with their society?

>>2504030

Yes, their economy is based off of the extraction and exportation of natural resources. Not the venus project.

>>2504036
Ah, good.

>how much things (be they groceries, fuel, technology, etc) cost in the US compared to Western European countries

this is so fucking true it hurts.
when i went to America i was fucking amazed at how cheep everything was.

after that every time i heard an American fatass complain that he has to eat macdonalds/etc beacuse buying and preparing food was to expensive i raged hard.

i could probably feed three people with the amount of money i spend on food for myself if prices were as low in my contra as they are in America.

>Terraforming

Pointless waster of resources. You could just live in sealed environments on the planet anyway. Hell just keep spreading until the entire planet is a city with manufacturing and indoor agricultural(probably bacteria and protists) sectors. No need for open sky, rivers, or nature in general. By the time we need the space biospheres will probably be ancillary anyway.

And it's better to live in space because of the mining opportunities and no atmosphere to get in the way of your photoelectric cells.

>>2504036
>venus project
Just googled it,made me afraid.
I hope I'll remain safe from that in the Netherlands...

>>2504109

>You could just live in sealed environments on the planet anyway.

true enough, i get why people want to explore mars, or even colonize/mine it, but thermoforming will be silly.

especially when the over population is usually in countries that to be honest, don't get a say in global affairs.

you'd need to add more mass to the core so it can sustain a more powerful electromagnetic shield and more gravity.

untill you can do this, everything else is pointless because solar storms would tear the shit out of that planet.

your truly,
Anonymous

>>2504131
Pretty much. Rome and China are the two empires that just won't die. Every time they fall inheritors rebuild them elsewhere. Persian and India used to be cool but fell to shit after the Ottomans collapsed and the Mugals fucked about. The Inheritors of Rome: Europe, USA, Canada, Australia with the Inheritors of China: the Chinks themselves and the Japanese; they'll be the ones to get good land and new worlds to conquer. Everybody else just has to deal with living in shit.

>>2504133

never got that shit, mars is smaller but every time i read about it it having massive amounts of iron on its surface is mentioned.

you'd think this it has a larger amount of metals in it's core (and everywhere else) would make it's smaller size insignificant and allow it to have a larger electromagnetic field then the earth.

>>2504156

i would call this an optimistic point of view.
i don't think people are beyond sending people from Africa into space telling them they're doing them a favor and giving them land, waiting for them to drill/farm/whatever and then go build businesses there that will eventually take all of their profit away from them or just steal it outright.

i don't have much faith in the decency of the human race.

>There isn't even that much money on Earth

That's never stopped us before, much to my dismay.

Still, if we want to go a teraforming, take a look a Venus. Hit it with a big enough asteroid and try to cause an ice age. Once we've got it cold enough to work with, start stripping off the atmosphere. Use plants and algae to convert the CO2 into more useful O2. With the dust storms all over the place, it's best to keep them airborne. Watering would be done by regular dropping of mid sized chunks of ice.

Now, even if we can get the surface of venus to a non-melty state, it's too close to the sun, so most of the water is going to stay liquid.

witzerland has a stable, modern and one of the most capitalist[citation needed] economies in the world. It has the highest European rating in the Index of Economic Freedom 2010, while also providing large coverage through public services.[71] The nominal per capita GDP is higher than those of the larger western European economies and Japan, ranking 6th behind Luxembourg, Norway, Qatar, Iceland and Ireland. The Swiss franc remains one of the world's strongest currencies with the lowest inflation rate.[72]

One of the most capitalist countries and nr1 in Global Competitiveness Report.

Problem sociafails?

>>2504161
Its core is cold and solid. There is no rotation, which is what produces Earth's magnetic field. It's not a problem of mass, but of state.

>>2504161
You don't need just iron. You need MOVING iron. Basically, a molten region in circulation near the core.

>>2504172
You don't seen a bunch a niggers into space where they have the highground and tell them to mine asteroids and shit. That's just asking to get a rock dropped on your head.

And they would be niggers if they are from Africa. Even here in the states we have a lot of blacks but few niggers outside of the shittiest projects. Over there blacks are the minority and niggers are all over the place.

And if you don't understand the difference between someone who happens to be black and a nigger, then I can't help you.

>>2504181
It won't last

>>2504204

doesn't it have a volcano on it the size of America?

that would suggest to me the entire fucking planet is a male storm of magma inside.

i mean Yellowstone isn't half that big and i heard it can produce enough electricity to power most of the state.

if there is no magma now, not molten or solid core and no rotation, couldn't we just fix that so long at the core is there?

like inducing the volcano to erupt and channeling that into rotation speed?

how much do we know about what goes on under the surface of mars?

>>2504241
[Citation needed]

>>2504245
Olimpus Monz or whatever is dormant and has been for a long time. Hell the moon used to have volcanoes, the maria are basalt outflows caused by bollide impacts. Venus still has volcanic activity though.

>>2504246
Just my personal belief that I've arrived at through observation of recent events.

Um, we'll have cities under the fucking ocean before we even remotely attempt colonizing some other planetary body outside of our own planet.

I'm talking bioshock style.

>>2504259
Agricultural protectionism—a rare exception to Switzerland's free trade policies—has contributed to high food prices. Product market liberalisation is lagging behind many EU countries according to the OECD.[81] Nevertheless, domestic purchasing power is one of the best in the world.[83][84][85] Apart from agriculture, economic and trade barriers between the European Union and Switzerland are minimal and Switzerland has free trade agreements worldwide. Switzerland is a member of the European Free Trade Association (EFTA).

And yet it is protectionism that's causing the high food price.

We wont know about the center of the mars ever i believe, let alone we dont even know exactly whats in our core. and we dont even have the enrgy here to even attempt a global environment spark to even cause a reaction to a whole planet. we cant even understand global warming, let alone do anything about it.

>>2504259
Capitalist: Socialism doesn't work as a complete system but certain socialistic goverment structures like unemployment, social security, or the military industrial complex have their place in a productive economy by taking up slack in places where capitalism is too prone to infighting to work or support productive workers that have had bad luck until they can find employment and be productive in the capitalist sectors again.

Socialist: Capitalism doesn't work at all, bitch, bitch, moan, moan, justice this, moral platitudes that. Because some idiot fucks up and creates a bubble that reduces monetary trading this somehow invalidates that actual production of physical goods of individual paid by wage allotment and the selling of those goods based on demand of consumers.

>>2504214

>And if you don't understand the difference between someone who happens to be black and a nigger, then I can't help you.

sorry to tell you this, but niggers are from America, not Africa.

every time you see an African warlord or some shit like that listening to rap, thats beacuse they want to be like American blacks, not the other way around.

also i highly doubt people will immediately start throwing rocks at the people giving them food, water, and making sure they can live in their environments.

and if they are that stupid, I'm sure there will be some kind of remote controlled "release atmosphere" button.

it's an unfortunate fact but despite everyone saying it's different now inside we're all just animals and don't really give a fuck about anyone else but our own.

>>2504282
>let alone we dont even know exactly whats in our core.

>>2504293

from what i've seen on channels target for republicans and the republicans themselves you got that backwards.

>>2504256

what if we nuke it?

>>2504309
Then we'll have a radioactive crater on a dormant volcano.

>>2504297
>I've never been to Africa
Much like the rural folks in the South the black farmers of Africa are real salt of the Earth people, not trained or educated but not particularly dumb either.
But go into even small towns in Africa: "Niggers, niggers fucking everywhere." And its not the rap music it's the layabout fuck everyone else I'll steal their shit attitude.

Even though I have a MS I'm still a hick from Pennsylvania. I have a fuck everyone else, I won't bother them they won't bother me attitude. Being insular is not a problem. I might be an asshole but I don't actively fuck with other peoples shit. It's the same thing difference between hicks and white trash.

>>2504278
I don't dispute that, and indeed that is a problem that needs to be addressed.
>>2504293
What the hell type of argument is that? Anyway, my problem is that capitalism is a system built on greed, a system which can apparently collapse with out anyone even trying to fuck it up. It's a system that favors the people that do very little (the 'idiot' bankers you mentioned) and screws the people that actually have to work to earn money. It's a system that favors money above all else and, because of that, breads corruption, it's a system that makes/forces politicians to make judgments based on the acquisition of more wealth, it's a system that has fail time and time again and will continue to fail until it's changed.

Now if we can move off of economics and discus science.

>>2504348

i've never been to Africa but Africa sorta came to me.
lots of African refugees in my country these past few years and yes they are utter shit, but you can't blame primitive people for being primitive.

they never got and education and lived in a culture were ignorance is more of a virtue then a problem.

for instance Ethiopians Jews (I'm from israel) that have lived in my country for decades or were born here are probably the nicest people i know.

short of the people that just crossed the fucking border i don't think it's so much a matter of origin as a matter of culture.

but whatever.

also, we should nuke mars anyway, can't hurt, fuck just nuke it until something cool happens.

>>2504309
>from what i've seen on channels target for republicans and the republicans
So Fox News then, that's the only such channel I know of.

But you will get this >>2504293 in almost every socialist party in Europe. Even though Europe is not actually socialist or "social democracies, nor should be. They just spend more over here on public trust shit instead of army shit. But what people forget is that the reason they can do that is because the US pays for 70% of fucking NATO, which is designed to protect and finance European security. Yes it helps US interest, but that doesn't change the fact that it does not directly finance US security. The reason they can spend 2-3% of the GPD on military instead of 4 like the US is because it is subsidizing our fucking security. So when people say to the US, "you is warmongers stop making weapons", what they are really saying is I'd like to have to spend that same money from my own pocket to sustain our military.

>>2504245
>doesn't it have a volcano on it the size of America

No, it has what used to be a volcano a very very long time ago. It's quite thoroughly dead now.

Mars also has monstrous mountains three times the height of Mt. Everest. The only way this can be possible is if the core is cold, because otherwise most of the mountain would have sunk down into the mantle under its own weight, leaving just the tips as shorter mountains.

>>2504256
>what if we nuke it?

You'll make an ineffectual little blast crater.

A nuke produces a large explosion relative to a person. Relative to geology? Not so much.

>>2504383

that is such bullshit.
israel spends almost 7% of it's budget on it's military and we can still afford universal health care.

it's just a matter of were you want to put the money.

>>2504352
>collapse with out anyone even trying to fuck it up

Full Socialism falls apart in two months and gets taken over by another system.
Laissez Faire suffers a failure in two years and gets some form of regulation.
Capitalist Leaning Mixed Economies(i.e. US, Europe, China) have minor failures every 15 years and major ones if there is a new way of trading developed that allows bubbles to form(trade banking in the 20s, full electronic exchange in the 2000s).

What we have today still has a better precedent for success. It's still shit, but it is less shit than anything else proposed and tested as of date.


They fail because there are rational actors infighting for influence and control. And not necessarily just for self interest, even in capitalism some people just do it because they like a certain economic principle or producing and trading things a certain way. And if you think Socialism wouldn't have as much if not more infighting and corruption I have a horse to sell you. Humans fight, humans make mistakes, humans are corrupt. Deal with it.

>>2504402
Israel has very high taxes on the lower tax brackets compared to both the US and Europe. Conscription also helps cut down the actual cost of the military. And they have a smaller population with a larger number of doctors who emigrated to the country from else.

>>2504383
>2-3% of the GPD on military instead of 4 like the US

>>2504402
>7% of it's budget

Budget=/GDP

>>2504441

>high taxes.

yes we do, it's fucking sad.
a car here costs three times more then it does in the u.s or europe.
don't even get me started about fuel.

>with a larger number of doctors who emigrated to the country from else

not really, we have doctors but most of them were born here.
but that doesn't really matter you are thinking of it in a completely wrong way.

doctors don't produce income, they get a large paycheck beacuse they are needed and have to go through all kinds of shit to get to were they are, but they are in the service industry.

the service industry doesn't create wealth, it simply spreads it.

the real "money makers" are the crazy amount of start ups and high tech jobs in this country.

>>2504452

sorry ment gdp.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures

we put more of the GDP into the army, but it obviously comes out as less then the u.s military what with us having less then a tenth of it's population.

>>2504431
>And if you think Socialism wouldn't have as much if not more infighting and corruption I have a horse to sell you. Humans fight, humans make mistakes, humans are corrupt. Deal with it.

I agree, I just think that Capitalism is a system which encourages greed. Also, why do you assume that I'm in favor of Socialism? Why does every assume that? All I did was point out that Switzerland's massively open market would probably fail at some point, and then everyone would be pissed and the market would be re-designed to be less open.

I don't like either system, but I accept that when they work together they make a slightly better one. Still it isn't perfect, far from it.

>>2504502

I like how this BS thread went from science to shit. GJ internet ¬_¬

>>2504546
perhaps i can help
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>>2504504
>would probably fail at some
In the end everything falls...
But it's doing very good right now.
Also greed is good in many occasions not all,but in most occasions it is.
Socialism is for those points where it isn't good very good.But most of the time politic parties want more and more socialism and socialism will spread to things where greed is good.

>>2504882
>where it isn't good very good
Where greed isn't good,socialism is good.
Sometimes my writing gets fucked.