/sci/ - Science & Math

Communism is impossible.

>>2426232
And such is Capitalism.

>>2426261
Except capitalism has done pretty well. It's not perfect, but it's great for economic growth.

>>2426261
>>2426207

For every single Left-Winger that reads this shit, i have one name to say to you: Ludwig von Mises. READ about this man.

And two books to read:

Socialism, an economic and sociological analysis: by L. von Mises

Capitalism, a treatise on economics: by George Reisman

Tl;dr: Communism is impossible.

>>2426261

>>2426271

Except there hasn't been a purely capitalist system since the 19th century robber barons were reined in by the government. Every democratic country today is a mix of free market and socialist systems. Some are just better at finding the right balance between the two, and figuring out where democracy fits into this kind of system.

>>2426207

>Are you the kind of ilk, who are prone to hide or justify communist crimes or do you maintain the stance, that true communism has never been tried?

We are the kind of "ilk" that would like a functioning society working efficiently towards technological advancement, where individuals cooperate of their own will for the common good.

The problem with Communism is that it involves people.

>>2426293
>thinks communism is functional

I maintain the position that people are pricks to each other, and all systems are doomed to failure because of this.

Communism's good as any system, just need some way to delay the prickfaces getting control of everything. Like what happened with Russia, and is happening with America.

>>2426297

I didn't mention communism.

communist crimes, capitalist crimes, facist crimes. In the end, all types of civilisations fuck over themselves. Obviously facism seemed to do the best job. But its not overlooking communist crimes. Its A) looking at it with a bit of idealism and B) having the knowledge to know that its not simply that communism is a crime against humanity, but rather has been done wrong quite a bit.
Its also important to note: communism and democracy are not opposite, and in theory, it is possible to have both.
this is /sci though. why are we discussing communism. go to /int or something.

>>2426312
Then you need not refer to yourself as ilk, unless you're another kind of leftist.

>>2426284
Observing the established countries of capitalism actually shows up that something is going terribly wrong. Instead of maintaining the division between the government and the free market system, the market actually managed it primarily in western countries to undermine the democratic system, manipulating public opinion as well as influencing the law making process. Capitalism is actually great in theory, but it requires in most cases a strong state to constantly keep division between the economic and political system.

>>2426286
Well the "mixed" economy rhetoric is just what some leftists made up to direct attention from total failure of their theories.

I think I am choosing the right example here and say Leftist claim credit for mixed economy and tie it to socialism while in socialism theory free enterprise consisted of <1% of the economy and in "mixed economies" it is about 60%.

Successful countries are very far from being less than 1% free market.

>>2426309

>I maintain the position that people are pricks to each other, and all systems are doomed to failure because of this.

That's not entirely true. Not all people are pricks. Many people have good circles of friends, good families .....etc. I think what really happens is that a substantial number of people who act greed/maliciously ruin the whole structure both directly by doing harm and indirectly by spreading their evil.

>>2426286

>robber barons

The 19th century was a very hard time indeed, but:

1: It wasn't Pure Capitalistic. Protectionism and Imperialism were fucking EVERYWHERE.

2: Even so, the view most people have of it is fucking wrong.
>http://mises.org/daily/2317

3: It was just the beggining of Capitalism and the fall of Feudal/Mercantilist society. Things changed a hell lot since then.

Also, i don't think modern Welfare-States really count as a "Mix of Capitalism and Socialism". They are more of "Capitalism with State-Intervention", real "Socialism" is a hell lot different. Marxists would call this "Reactionary bullshit" rather than "Socialist Policies".

>what does this have to do with science

>>2426293

>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_calculation_problem

Go study economics before imagining Utopian societies.

>>2426326

Which is why I put it in quotation marks but that doesn't even matter. It's just a misunderstanding. Can we move on, please?

>3: It was just the beggining of Capitalism and the fall of Feudal/Mercantilist society. Things changed a hell lot since then.

>Implying capitalism isn't just feudalism with factories

>>2426359
Yes, because My boss owns my land and in exchange I get protection. You leftists seriously need to learn definitions.

>Communism takes Russia from a backwards peasant state with an average lifespan of 25 to a technological superpower with a lifespan longer than the US's IN A FEW DECADES.

>Propaganda from Communism's enemies

>"Communism, is like, totally evil, guys. Also, it's impossible. And did you know that people DIED in communist countries? Obviously no one ever dies in other countries."

>>2426359

>Missed the point.
>Doesn't know the difference between Serfdom + Slavery and Wages + Free Enterprise.
>Doesn't know the difference between Private Property ( Obtained through work and trade) and Feudal Property ( obtained through war and servitude to the King/Lord).
>Doesn't see Capitalism has equality before the law whilst Feudalism has a Caste system.
>Doesn't know the difference between a Market Economy and the Feudal system.

Cool story bro.

ITT we apply extremism into economic systems and justify it with pull-it-out-your-ass numbers.

We have no perfect systems so until we do, mix and match.

>>2426374
For some reason you lied a lot in your post. I guess that means you subscribe to the Jesuit ethics of end justifies the means.

>>2426428
Just before the revolution, the average life expectancy was about 30 years. By the 1960s men were living on average to 66, women to 74 (about the life expectancy of U.S. citizens). In 1950, 84 children out of every 1,000 died before the age of one. By 1971 infant mortality had dropped to 23 deaths per thousand. Lately, though, these gains seem to be eroding. Life expectancy for men has been dropping, in part because of rampant alcoholism, and observers say that the U.S.S.R. is losing 30 of every 1,000 new citizens (double the U.S. figure).

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,922039,00.html#ixzz1CH9a68Jw
Sorry, you lose. Oh, and look, the average lifespan falls as soon as Capitalism takes over. See, this is how you defeat Communism. You keep your population so clueless about statistics that they can't make informed decisions.

>>2426374

Russia only started industrializing with Lenin's "New Economic Policy" of the 20's, which was a partial return to Capitalism. Before this, Russia had never been Capitalist, it was a Feudal shithole before the revolution.

After Stalin ended this, famines and shortages started. Industrialization kept going because of WW2 ( Wars always boost technological improvement) and Stalin kept investing into Technology like mad ( every country can grow artificially for a while), but he was ignoring investments in all other areas, and by the time he was dead massive famines were constant in Russia, killing over 20 million people of hunger.

Cold War kept high industrialization rates whilst the people starved. Soviet Union eventually collapses. Thousands of Commies start calling themselves "Trotskyists" and say "It wasn't real Communism!", even though they all supported the regime all along.

>>2426374
>Communism takes Russia from a backwards peasant state with an average lifespan of 25 to a technological superpower with a lifespan longer than the US's IN A FEW DECADES.

More like Stalin methodically spends 5 million lives to prepare for a conflict with the Nazis(or just anybody) by sending 15 million off to we worked too hard to keep them healthy(losing 1/3 of the workers)

You can argue for the necessity of that, but it not to give people longer lives because they didn't have longer life expectancies that Britain or the US.

>>2426452

And forgot to mention, to this day Russia and East Europe have lower life standards than the Capitalist countries.

The idea of communism in and of itself is a utopia, with everyone getting everything they need from everyone else for free. No currency, just decency towards each other.
Unfortunately for communism to truly work a country needs to be completely self sustaining, which no country is. Also, the savagery of human nature means in a communist society someone will always make grabs for overall power which will eventually escalate to violence, shattering the peace and the breakdown of the 'give and take' society, resulting in the breakdown of civilisation and ultimately various factions will group up and there will be civil war between all groups vying for either power or survival.
Communism is good, but it can't work because we are humans, communism is essentially what happens in dog packs but it works then because they are fanatically loyal to each other.

>>2426293

Everything about this post renews my faith in /sci/.

>>2426452
LOLOL, EVERYONE's dying... except for the fact that the average lifespan keeps rising throughout Stalin's rule. Sure thing, kiddo. Same party-line, different day.

You'll notice how these fags never blame "Capitalism" for the people who die in Capitalist societies. The US is the biggest prison state per capita in the world, but it has nothing to do with Capitalism. India and China are shit-holes, but it has nothing to do with Capitalism. Saying anything different is blasphemy in the religion of the Anti-Communist.

>>2426485
Probably because people don't die as a result of capitalism in capitalist societies. We just steal from all the shit-tier 3rd world countries with their militaristic regimes and let their populace starve to death.

>>2426485

Move to Cuba and see how well Communism increases the lifespan. OH WAIT, of course, according to you people, Cuba fails due to the lack of free trade.

All those deaths are the result of State-Intervention. You may have noticed that pretty much all 3rd world countries suffered through Dictatorships and wars, and today have to face a shit ton of Protectionism and inefficiency of politicians. "Capitalism" in itself only saved lives through it's history: The consolidation of Capitalism caused the biggest population boom in history, as it ALLOWED THOSE PEOPLE TO LIVE. And to this day East Europe and Russia have lower lifespans and living conditions than the countries who were Capitalist.

You fail, Commie.