/sci/ - Science & Math

Read Proposed Roads to Freedom by Betrand Russel. Socialism and/or anarchism is the way to go.

http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/690

http://www.marshallbrain.com/manna5.htm
It begins.

>>2423387

Hey, I've seen that cool story before. Those wacky anarchists :P

This is what adult life is like. There are always vacations and retirement. But if you make it through life without too much suffering, you're doing okay.

>>2423394
If technological progress follows as the story portrays, as it seems it is actually doing in the real world, then we may see it materialize.

>>2423399

That's why I'm an optimist. Technology will free us from the bonds of nature.

Then again, we can't underestimate the hatred and destructive of right-wing populism combined with cynical politicians and businessmen.

>>2423407
>>2423407
>>2423407
>>2423407
>>2423407

what can be done to strategically combat this?

i want to study science, join a service club a la lions, live responsibly and in all practical ways promote science

i want to see the technological singularity

>>2423417

Not a lot one man can do. Actively being a scientist or politician would be the best way. If not, writing science fiction to engage the minds of the next generation is good. Books are powerful.

Open source is a relevant movement as well, so look into that.

If you happen to organize any groups, make them democratic and egalitarian, its not enough to have the technology, distribution must be for all.

>>2423417

this is actually one of the reasons interstellar colonization interests me. If we can get a bunch of likeminded people together, setting up an egalitarian and fully democratic society will be much easier than on earth.

Just try not to think about it OP, the deeper into this void you look the less you will like the results.

People make fun of nihilists because deep down, they know there is nothing. By collectively slamming nihilists, they are assuring each other, "there IS meaning!". It's a big lie. A human is s fleck of biology and a small stack of memories. That's it. It's easy to go yeah yeah on the surface, it's soul crushingly difficult to actually integrate and accept this idea.

The point I'm trying to make is, yeah, you realize you're going to die intellectually, but you haven't really accepted it. People usually only do when they are really old and it's too late to bear out any of the implications.

I'd gladly go to sleep for the next 60 years OP, you don't even know.

>>2423399
We won't end up with a manna system, the workers will be the ones being automated. You can already order pizza using online forms in the states and I think one of the fast food chains was testing ordering kiosks somewhere.

Add a commercial grade Roomba to it and you'd only need a cook and a manager. Having worked in fast food I can honestly say that will result in the manager doing the cooking.

>>2423465

I have accepted death, even the death of the universe. And I find nihilism disgusting. Have you no pride, man? No dignity? Would you waste your precious few decades skulking when you could be enjoying the world?

The very fact people get depressed about death means that life must be worth living. Death is just the end of your turn, the absence of a bunch of good things. But you won't care about that, once you're dead, so why worry?

Be proud to be the only sapient species we know of. Be proud of your intellect. Don't believe in yourself. Believe in me who believes in you.

>>2423471

samefag here.

tl;dr theists are cowardly and in denial, and nihilists are whiny pussies who are even worse.

>>2423477
Being a nihilist doesn't inherently mean you have to QQ about it. It just means you have realized that everything means nothing. How you take that emotionally is up to the person.

>>2423471
you dont know shit bout nuthin

There is no grand meaning. We make our own meaning.

>>2423407
Don't confuse the right-wing with hatred. It's just a realistic view of human dynamics. Believing in the laws of economics doesn't make you cruel just because the laws of nature are cruel. Being right-wing means you admit to the laws of nature and want to work with them instead of denying them.

so OP, stop buying all the shit society says you need to have. I drive used cars though I prefer to walk or ride a bike when I can. I buy cheap clothes at walmart, my whole wardrobe looks the same and I replace parts of it when they wear out. I don't own a cell phone, and can't understand why people pay so much to be available to everyone all the time, especially when work calls. I don't own a big screen tv, and I don't have cable. I built my computer and I use the wireless internet of some business down the street. I cook most of my meals, and a lot of them are macaroni or ramen noodles. I fix my own cars, I maintain my small and fairly cheap house.

I work almost 40 hours a year and travel almost three months a year. I am a multi-millionaire. I find it amusing that others have so much more than I do, and spend so much more time getting and keeping it. Slaves, with a slave blindness. You sense the cage, can you get out of it?

>>2423537
This, x100000.
>>2423330
So if you don't want be a "cog in the machine", give yourself over to your wildest ambitions and turn them into reality.

>>2423545

The right wing is the force of reaction. It will always be in opposition to egalitarian societies, because of its need for a) authoritarian heirarchies or b) unregulated capitalism, or both at once.

Oh hey there. Just being a nihilist.


I once had a bad acid trip where I looked into nihilism and questioned my entire existence. It seemed very odd to me that I was still living when I would eventually die one day and not remember my existence anyways. I am basically a dead person who has yet to die and I went fucking crazy because of it, and had a lot of insane revelations along that way.

But, ending your own existence because of that seems even more absurd. I couldn't bring to kill myself so clearly I didn't quite believe in nihilism or it would be the most logical thing to do.

The universe tends to roll out how it should. I don't think you can speculate that existence is worthless because you can't find an answer for it. I certainly hope we find out more about life then just work.

>>2423550
Livin' the high life, you are.

Capitalism at it's best.

>>2423554
That's not what the right-wing is at all. It's the favoring of policies that increase economic production, because that leads to higher standard of living for everyone. It's opposition to the idea of trying to artificially increasing the standard of living of the poor at the expense of the rich in the name of "egalitarianism" because they understand that that undermines productivity across the board and harms everyone.

>>2423560
not sure if ironic, but funny either way.

I'm living my life anyways, not the one someone hired me to live. Though I admit I was a wage-slave for the first 32 years of my life. They pay you just enough to keep you working, but never enough to let you stop. Now I am that "they," I understand the game.

>>2423600
>steels credit card numbers for a living.

>>2423607
in soviet america, credit card number steals you.

>>2423330
Try biphasic sleeping, you'll sleep for 6.5 hours and have shittons of time over.

Welcome to adulthood. Thank god you had a childhood, most people in the world don't have one,and most people in the west didn't have one either until the turn of the 20th century.

Grow up and pass on the gift of childhood to your children. Don't fuck up raising them either. Lots of hugs n' kisses, punish them when they do something wrong, and always encourage them and praise them when they do something right.

Actual advice from 4chan.

i think life doesn't have intrinsic meaning or purpose. doesn't mean i don't see a point in living, we live because it feels good. feels good to eat good food, feels good to sleep till late, feels good to have sex, feels good to go out with friends, etc... so even if life doesn't have a point, its worth to live it because it feels good, man.

>>2423678

This.

Ardeur de la vie, de la vie!

>>2423678
Sure if you want to have the philosophical standards of a reptile.

I prefer to put myself to higher standards than "feeling good". People who do not exercise self-denial are inferior. Even if you have a nihilistic point of view, which I could respect, your arbitrary assignment as pleasure being the ultimate goal in life is deplorable.

tl;dr get higher standards, you lazy fuck
.

>>2423688
What's wrong with pleasure? That's my aim in life, as long as I don't hurt others while doing it.

Perhaps you're conflating "short term pleasure" with "long term pleasure". I'm not short cited in my pleasure, nor is my pleasure base and always sexual and the like.

You work to get paid to buy things that you expect to offer you an evasion from work.
No wonder you're unsatisfied. Welcome to modern capitalism.

>>2423688

Dude that's not cool. Hedonism isn't nihilism. In the end, what we want is to be happy.

Morality is just the application of that desire to everyone (Utilitarian ethics).

What is worth more than happiness?

>>2423696
Freedom.

maybe life in the country isn't so bad. you'd learn to work the land, get enough out of it to live well fed, and work hard only a certain portion of a year.

i want to work to live, not live to work ;_;

>>2423699

Because freedom makes you happy, or you wouldn't want it.

If ignorance is truly bliss, then yes the years between birth and age five are the best ever.

>>2423471
Nihilism is aboout having no pride nor dignity and enjoying it. Those who sulk are the prideful, who take offence of the world..

>>2423696
Happiness is a chemical reaction you smuck. Utilitarianism is flawed.

The value I arbitrarily assign to be the highest value is complete understanding of the universe. Since that is next to impossible with current technology/biological form of life, the pursuit of complete understanding of the universe is a life well spent.

Not pleasuring yourself by relying on your brain's mammalian processes to make you feel good by releasing dopamine for actions it understands to be beneficial to survival.

>>2423702
Yes, but when you say happiness, that implies that someone else can decide for me what makes me happy, which is quite dangerous.

>>2423703

Lies. They were years of boredom. Only after I could exercise my mind was life interesting.

>>2423702

this.

you know, i wouldn't mind being an alpha in brave new world's universe. no freedom at all, but they try to keep you happy, and that's more than you can hope for in the real world

>>2423710
And I disagree.

>>2423707

No it doesn't. Happiness implies the emotion happiness which can stem from a number of things.

If you pick heroin-induced apathetic bliss, and force it on everyone, people will rebel. This indicates you have made them happy.

>>2423712

*Not made them happy, lol.

>>2423712
Still, I much prefer valuing liberty. Less chance for corruption, Brave New World shit, etc. It's much cleaner. It avoids the need to define happiness.

>>2423716
What does liberty means to you ? Is OP free ?

>>2423706

for you, understanding the universe makes you feel good. for some other people, is partying till sunrise. to each their own, bro.

zeitgeist 2?

>>2423719
It's as free as practical. Unfortunately we need to eat, and shit.

>>2423721
More like Can dialectics break bricks ? for me.

>>2423716

Happiness is an emotion universally regarded as good by definition in the human species and I'm pretty sure the entire animal kingdom.

What causes it varies from person to person, but freedom, safety, education, health etc are all well documented to increase happiness.

Self-denial is a waste of life.

>>2423726
And I disagree. I'd rather be unhappy and free, than happy and a slave. I'd rather know the truth and be less happy, then be blissfully ignorant.

I'm sorry that that's so hard to understand. In my world view, you're welcome to do whatever you want, including make yourself happy. Don't be treading on what I want though.

>>2423706

Happiness is a universally valued thing. Understanding is not.

It was not arbitrarily chosen.

>>2423724
Are public toilets a step towards more practical freedom, then ?

Confucius says, "choose a job you love and you will never have to work a day in your life".

>>2423730

If you were free, and you liked being free, which meant you desired to be free, wouldn't that produce happiness?

And wouldn't this happiness have to be greater than whatever slaves got in order for you to pick freedom?

>>2423730

whatever makes you happy, man.

>>2423733

Have you ever needed to take a shit in public?

Those things are life savers.

>>2423734
Marx said something similar.

6 hours a day is not much.
8 is the norm. You're a lazy ass.

You can sleep 7 hours, it's enough and you get free time. Life is too short for sleeping more than necessary to be able to get up all the time (what I mean is that you should get sleep, but if you need the time, sleeping 7 hours instead of 8 4 days a week isn't bad).

>>2423736
Example:

Would I rather be with a girl who's cheating on me, and happy by any sensible definition, or would I rather learn that she's cheating on me, and be unhappy, sullen, and alone, by any sensible definition.

You're conflating "happiness" with "liberty". If you want to pervert the definition of happiness to "Whatever you want", then we're really lost the meaning behind these two different ideas.

>>2423740

"From each according to his ability, To each according to his needs.", I think.

Ironically it was the anarchists who actually applied that maxim, not the marxists.

>>2423739
Right. I just wanted to know if you thought that more freedom could result from a coordinated effort more easily than from non-restricted individual actions.

>>2423742

the point is doing whatever makes you feel good. if you feel good living a shitty life but being free (like the noble savage dude in brave new world), then do it.

>>2423749
What do you mean "feel good"? Ask anyone who just found out their spouse was cheating on them. None of them would say that they're "feeling good". They would say that they're feeling very, very bad.

Again, stop conflating distinct concepts.

>>2423330
Your story is fuckin sad. You made the wrong decisions in life. You pursued money, instead of happiness, or your true passion.

You were suppose to pursue your true passion. Somthing you generally love doing, and would spend your life doing anyway (even without pay). If you pursue your true passion, you never really "work" a day in your life.

>>2423742

But getting what you want is what happiness is about. If you want freedom, and you get it, you'll be happier.

"perverting the definition" - what? You don't feel happy to be free? Freedom is the cause, happiness is the effect.

>>2423753
forgot the image

Also, OP sounds like a fag (engineer)

From wiktionary:

happy (comparative happier, superlative happiest)
Experiencing the effect of favourable fortune; having the feeling arising from the consciousness of well-being or of enjoyment; enjoying good of any kind, as peace, tranquillity, comfort; contented; joyous.  [quotations ▼]
Favored by luck or fortune; lucky.  [quotations ▼]
Dexterous; ready; apt; felicitous.  [quotations ▼]
Content (to do something); having no objection (to something).

>>2423755
Would you ever prevent someone from hurting themself voluntarily?

>>2423747
Marx said some intelligent things, and the marxists ignored several of them.

But I was thinking about something that wasn't made a slogan, about work being alienating mainly because of capitalistic productive relations. Change those, and you can love your work, and thus change the very definition of work.

>>2423330
Job - Physicist
Work - Maybe 4 hours a week
Pay - Great
Free time - fucking plenty

>>2423763

Self-harm is a symptom of depression. I'd get them treated and accompany them to try alleviate the symptoms. (Actually done this IRL)

>>2423753

i feel like that is one of the hugest bullshits ever. even something you like to do, you wouldn't like to do it 9 hours a day, if your pay is shit.

life as we know it basically boils down to selling your time to be able to pay to live

>>2423770
So, yes you would use force through the state to prevent them from harming themself.

I disagree.

>>2423607
It's a fine technology if I don't say so myself.

op , anon here whose been in a accident , now recovering but its going to take over a year and half to get back on my feet. 8+ months now since it happened.

All the free time in the world anon , thats what i have now. Play vidya , watch movies , chill with freinds when their around not working. Eat whatever i want , pretty much enough time to do wahtever the hell i want

To tell you the truth , its been depressing as fuck man, after so long without work or study you can only have so much fun . Permanent vacation is hell. Your freinds are all busy during work hours and not everybody can give you time everyday. ive tried to do pretty much everything taking up diy projects playing every game ive missed out on , watching tv ad movies i havent before , and even eating out for a whole month.

My personal Hell bro

>>2423600
>>2423550
What do you do for a living, exactly ?

>>2423774

WHAT?

Fuck no, that would make them worse. I'd get them treated with anti depressants and on leave from school/work watching anime to try cheer up.

Force of the state, my ass. As if a depressive wouldn't voluntarily accept treatment. Like I said, helped someone through it IRL.

>>2423780

doing nothing sucks after some time. you gotta do stuff you like man, like go to college study that thing that doesn't get you any jobs but you love, attending classes to learn a new language, or painting, or stuff like that.

>>2423771
You actually enjoy it more if you get paid less.

>>2423780
How is that personal ? Your friends being in cage most of the day, the leisure products showing their total dependence on the daily drudgery of work, and the difficulties you have to do anything else beyond buying more of those....
Definitely, free time being actually dead time is a social and political problem.

unemployed masterrace reporting in

>>2423784
I think if I ever saw a psychologist about it, I'd be diagnosticized with depression and prescribed anti-depressants. I don't want that.

>>2423795
Or is it diagnosed ?

>>2423771
>>2423771
>life as we know it basically boils down to selling your time to be able to pay to live

Nope, not at all. Where the did you go to grade school? Didn't they teach you shit? What about your parents? They didn't teach you about life?

Your life should not be ends to make money. You should not have to sell your time away like that. You are doing it all wrong bro!

You shitty attitude is the reason you are in such a bad position. 9 hrs a day? wtf? What bad decisions did you make?

Follow your passion. Work smart, not hard!

>>2423330
>wage slave

Probably an engineer

>>2423804
>implying it's an individual responsibility

>>2423330
>Phd in math
>100k starting at NSA
>8 hrs a week

Love my job!

>>2423816
>doesn't think he is responsible for his own life

>>2423826
>thinks he is responsible for his own life
Nice work ignoring reality.

>>2423833
Are you literally retarded? Do your parents have to take care of you? Are you not allowed to make any choices in your life? Were you born into slavery?

>>2423856
Yeah, only slaves and retards are affected by the rest of the world, that's well known.

>>2423790

I write novels and program games in my spare time. You need to actually work towards something you think is worthwhile.

>>2423875
What exactly are you trying to argue? That you can't make decisions for yourself? That you can't choose your job or profession? That you have no control at all over your life?

>>2423885

And look how well that turned out for you. Your novels are shit, and nobody plays your games.

>>2423885
Do something you like with your time?
OMFG! who would have thought? If only OP was as smart as you.

You sir are a winner!

>>2423918
That's some piss poor trolling son. Sounds like you are just angry about your shitty life and you are taking it out on innocent anons.

>>2423929

Trying to save face?

>>2423918

>>2423918

U so jelly. I can tell.

>>2423916
I'm saying that your decisions and choices are determined by your education and personal history, and the situation and available options are mostly out of your control.
Yeah, in the end, a lot of people, even adults of normal intelligence and regular legal status, have no control over the use of their lives. Deal with it.

>>2423916
I'm saying that your decisions and choices are determined by your education and personal history, and the situation and available options are mostly out of your control.
Yeah, in the end, a lot of people, even adults of normal intelligence and regular legal status, have no control over the use of their lives. Ignoring that is ignoring reality.

>>2423963
Anyone in the USA can go to college and be whatever the fuck they want. If you don't have the money, the government will give you financial aid. Thousands of poor kids go to college this way. The government even gives you an "excess" to pay for your housing and food.

http://www.fafsa.ed.gov/

In the USA there is no excuse for anyone not to go to college and pursue something they think is worthwhile. Most other Westernized counties have similar programs, or just free universities.

Unless you are from a third world county, are mentally retarded, or living in slavery; you have no excuse. You are in charge of your own future!

>>2423963
owned

>>2423989

>>2423989
;)

Get a part-time job. You'll have less money but more time to yourself. If you don't want to do that because it would mean cutting back on your expenditures, then perhaps your problem is that you don't value your free time as highly as you think you do.

>>2423989

Wait, you mean in the US, citizens can get 80% of their tuition fees paid by the government like in normal society? And have the remainder not paid until the student is in full employment at the average wage or higher?

Wow. I underestimated you guys. I thought you were headed Randward.

>>2423330
dude, i work like 60 hours a week, sometimes 70-80 (but not often)
get your shit together and quit whining

>>2424027
It's true, but most students take these things for granted. I remember when I was applying to molecular biology grad/PhD programs, I was asking the director at one of the universities how competitive the application process was. He responded by saying that if you were a foreign student, it was extremely competitive. If you were a US national, it was much less competitive because the school had a quota that they had to maintain. If the school had not been forced to accept american students, we would have had practically no chance. Out of the total number of people applying, 80% were foreign, but only 40% of those highly-qualified students were accepted (these being on an entirely different level than the US applicants).

Let me also put this into perspective: Even with a 1320 on the GRE, I still didn't compare with the majority of the foreign applicants. They work harder, study more, and consider education to be a valuable commodity. Most US students simply think of their secondary education as an extension of high school. So yeah, with the tremendous advantage US students have in that they are literally offered an education at their convenience and don't have nearly the sort of competition that many foreign students face, there is no excuse for accepting what, in your personal opinion, is a substandard vocation.

The end.

>>2424027
FYI: Most times there is no money to pay back whatsoever. It really depends of the student and the school. The "grant money" is enough for tuition, food and lodging at most universities. However, you are given the additional option of "government loans", if you feel that you need more money.

>Randward

What does this word mean?

>>2424065
>Randward
I was wondering the same thing, first page of Google returned nothing, and that's the limit of my curiosity.

>>2424064
That whole system regarding foreign kids if fuckin retarded. Obama even talked about it in the State of the Union.

Foreign kids come to the USA to get a good education. But they are kicked out after graduation! WTF? Like 50% (or more) of Grad students are foreign. We loose intellectual capital by our own stupidity. We need to give the Grad students immediate citizen ship! and kick out the American citizens that don't do anything with there lives.

>>2424108

>>2424108
>>2424136

sure is obvious samefag.

After I graduated with my degree in Mathematics, it was time (past time, really) to pick a career and go for it. I initially looked into computer science kind of stuff, I applied to the NSA, couldn't find a job. I then moved on and tried more finance-type careers, threw my application out, never got anything back. Then I thought: "Why not teach?" I got into a training program for teachers, passed everything, and then it was time for observation. I had to do 16 hours of observation. Piece of cake. I go in one day, and luckily they didn't put me doing anything stupid like watching the lunch room, rather, they put me with an AP Calculus teacher. That was the day I decided not to teach. That was also the day that I realized that I never wanted a computer science job, it always sounded terrible and boring. I never wanted a finance job, for precisely the same reason. Teaching didn't strike me as boring, it struck me as the kind of thing that I wouldn't enjoy, being as that I'm the kind of person who prefers lots of personal space.

I ended up getting a job at Sam's Club working on the sales floor. I'm not a huge fan of my pay, but I wake up every morning and love my job. I meet lots of new people, I'm constantly learning new things (forklift certification, fuck year) and solving problems as related to merchandising. And, on top of that, I'm good at it.

Anyone else feel the same way about their barely-above-minimum-wage jobs?

>>2424168
Nope

why didn't you go to grad school?

>>2424180
Not sure, really. I had an opportunity to go to grad school to study economics, but it didn't seem like a good idea at the time. I wasn't sure if I could hack it in grad school, my grades in undergrad weren't anything to be proud of. I did a lot of extracurricular work with economics professors, and they told me once shortly before I graduated that they could almost guarantee me a graduate spot if I wanted to go for it, but I didn't really see it as a better life. I suppose I just assumed that I would get a career pulling down $50k/yr and that I'd like it.

>>2423330
When returns on mutual funds pick up(which will happen over this decade in moderate amounts, and the next (2020-2029) will be a boom) you can think of it like this:
Every dollar you invest will be worth twice as much in 7 years, and four times as much in 14 years, 8 times as much in 21 years... etc. That's at 10%, which seems optimistic now, but I'm expecting 7% average this decade and ~12% next. Anyway, if you think of it that way, being really really frugal right now means you can be pretty decadent later. Not having a car now can mean a Mercedes in 14 years. Not eating out now can be a steak dinner at the finest restaurant in...wait, never. The finest restaurants are too fucking expensive for you, chump.

What I'm getting at is that the whole "live fast young, save later thing" is counter-intuitive. It's actually far more viable to save and invest and be extremely cheap in your 20s and travel the world and fuck everything in sight later.

Compound interest can either be your bitch, or you can be its.

The problem with society is that all our advances which ostensibly are supposed to improve the human condition and make us not need to toil needlessly, are instead merely used to get us to work even harder.

To what end? The continued exploitation of the working class by the exploiter class, of course. Our toil isn't even being used to further advance science. It's just used so they can work that much less and be that much more comfortable.

Capitalism may "function" and not collapse, but economic darwinism is something we should strive to overcome, rather than embrace. We're human, we have morals to consider also.

When I owned my own company, there was a time I worked 100 hour weeks.