/sci/ - Science & Math

use platinum plates or deal with it. also, use draino in the water as its 18 molar H2SO4, which speeds up hydrolysis

Holy crap OP... learn what electrolysis is before you come and ask how to split molecules without shifting ions at all.

Also, stop being cheap as hell. If you MUST use anodes and cathodes as long as possible, get large ones and sand off the oxidation from time to time. The surface area will decrease, and so will yields, but you'll feel better about not throwing out spent anodes and cathodes once they're past their prime.

>>2339782
so you're saying platinum cathode/anode would experience absolutely no degradation from this process, even after, say, 100 years?

>>2339786
well I mean, I don't mind if ions shift or whatever, so long as the net effect is that the device is relatively undamaged by the process

like, think catalysts, they might get switched around temporarily but they always end up unchanged after the reaction

>>2339789
So you're saying that you don't understand you've been troll'd?

>>2339801
You're confusing catalysts and enzymes. If catalysts behaved like enzymes, the universe would be immeasurable different, because entrophy wouldn't exist.

Protip: if you're looking to get more bang for your buck in electrolysis, you aren't going to find it in the cathode. The money is in the media. Look into urea electrolysis. 4X more efficient than water.

I am a complete noob in electrochemisty so please tell me whether electrode damage is somehow fundamentally unavoidable??

>>2339818
it's not so much saving cash... as making my device truly 100% sustainable, like in a zombie apocalypse where I can't just go buy more metal for my electrodes anymore

>>2339818

>You're confusing catalysts and enzymes. If catalysts behaved like enzymes

Enzymes are catalysts.

>>2339829
what do you intend to do with this hydrolysis setup in the apocolypse?

use for energy - needs power from a socket which wont work cause power plants are gone

Well apparently I'm getting trolled or something, so does anyone really know whether electrode damage is unavoidable? Or is this actually a really difficult question?

>>2339865
Use for fuel, you mean, and yeah that is one possibility. I know how to produce electrical power without relying on the grid so it's all good

>>2339867
from
>>2339782
wasnt trolling, i just am pretty sure platinums one of the best types of anode/cathode to use.... i dont know bout 100 years but theyll last longer than other shit

>>2339876
hmm ok, well it is good to know which metal gets damaged the least even if there is apparently no perfect answer, thanks

>>2339870
do you have any idea how to store hydrogen? its not efficient at all, your better off saving up rubbing alcohol unless you have super high pressure containers that are 100+ below zero.

sorry :(

You can use anything conductive as your anode and cathode. Some old tin cans, nails, cutlery, and any other metal shit you have lying around. Why are you worried about how long they will last when they are essentially free?

>>2339890
>The main difference between scientists and engineers.

>>2339886
think zombie apocalypse and ask me if I care more about efficiency or reliability; I mean, I don't know how to make rubbing alcohol but I do know a tiny bit about electrolysis being able to produce hydrogen

anyway, if you store hydrogen at high pressure its energy density really isn't too horrible...

and.... you can also use it as a lifting gas! oh the humanity. :D

>>2339890
remember, my main thing is complete sustainability, not necessarily economy

>>2339837
>unchanged after the reaction
Catalysts are not always enzymes. Enzymes remain unchanged through reactions every day. Mind telling me where heat remains unchanged in a reaction when it acts as a catalyst? I'd love to know.

>>2339829
If you don't know how to smelt/recycle/cast metal, you're fucked within 2-3 years after the apocalypse anyway. You're out of your league, son.

Construct and operate a waste oil blast furnace without the use of electricity, and report back. If you can't do this, you aren't worth the resources.

Inb4 "HURR DURR, WASTE OIL IS FINITE". A plant oil is fine too.

>>2339906
buy long lasting batteries? using hydrogen as energy = blowing it up, meaning you need a motor to blow it up in. motors are loud and hydrogen fuel is, im sorry to say, but retardedly takes a long time,is inefficient, and a bitch to make...

>>2339925
>implying economics and sustainability are unrelated

You aren't going to outlive the scrap of 8 billion people.

>>2339758
I have done this experiment a ton of times. Probably first in middle school. You can actually do it with shit you have lying around the house. It takes less then 20min to set up, and is pretty easy to do.

>Does electrolysis of water always invariably degrade the metal plates you use as cathode and anode, over time

Yes, also you don't need plates, you can use a aluminum foil, soda can tab's, or even screws/nails.

Why did you think you need metal plates? Seriosuly, all you need are two metal objects for the nodes, a pan/tub like object for the water, two jars to collect the gases, salt (optional) and a cut power cord. (A power cord with the DC converted if you want to seperate out the differnt gases, AC if you don't care; they will both give you flamible gases)

I mean I'm sure you could make it all fancy, but I dont see the point. I have never had to spend any money making one of these. It seems like you are complicating shit.

Do you have anyother questions?

>>2339906
So you're going to waste energy pressurizing a gas that you already got at a net energy loss?

>>2339945
If the point is driving an internal combusion engine, the answer is external combustion. Lrn2gassification.

>>2339931
OP here, I disagree with you about metal recycling/casting, especially via blast furnace, being an absolute necessity for survival

also, off of the high horse with you, we can't have naysaying smugfags if we're gonna beat this horde

>>2339931
>Catalysts are not always enzymes.

Yes, I know. I never said that; I said that enzymes are always catalysts because you do have to be careful with their interchangeability. Plus if I was OP, I'd be really confused after reading your statement. You have to clarify and not throw in new topics and terms that are largely unrelated.

>>2339961
thank you for responding directly to my main question! :D

>>2339970
let me reiterate this for you, exploring hydrogen AS A FUEL, ie a substance that stores energy... when you say net energy loss, I'm like, "hello... I'm putting the energy into fuel form so I can store it, use it later, etc"

>>2339999
glorious quads, mmmm

>>2339971
Ok, go ahead and try to maintain silicon age technology while ignoring bronze age fundamentals. Good job depriving future generations of any useful knowledge of metal refining.

Seriously, if you can't make your own spare/new parts on the spot, then there isn't any point in trying to maintain the machines of the pre-apocalypse. Wasting energy lugging around spare everything or depending on a stash being nearby when needed doesn't make any sense.

How would OP make batteries to store the energy needed to perform electrolysis without knowing how to greensand cast lead plates once all remaining batteries have exhausted their 100-300 or so duty cycles or encounter physical damage?

>>2339999
Really, solid fuels are the way to go. All gassification needs is air and wood. Wood being ideal as it already has a high energy density which is already stored in the trees.... from the sun. No photovoltaics, no electromagnetics, no thermoelectrics. It grows on its own, everywhere, and there isn't anything you or zombies can do to stop it.

>>2340015
>How would OP make batteries to store the energy
I wouldn't make batteries to store energy, I would make hydrogen... hence why I originally made this thread in the first place

I don't know whatcha mean about maintaining lost technology or whatever, I'm just trying to survive here

if you feel like you would be able to archive knowledge of metal processing for future generations, then yes that would be very thoughtful of you

I'm with the tripfriend. A gassifier is much more realistic and proven technology. In an apocalyptic scenario I would probably go for a biodiesel vehicle modded with a gassifier as emergency backup. Hydrogen is only good for fuel cells ie. an electric vehicle which is too much of a hassle for such a scenario. You're not going to burn it and you're not going to go ballooning with it.

>Planing for legitimate strategy for zombie apocalypse
Hurr durr. All you really need to do is determine a method for going insane and you're fine. You can live as long as you want relative to your insanity (think about how long dreams seem but how short they are) and, if you somehow manipulate your insanity, you can live in a world where you are God.

As for electrolysis, I know nothing.

>>2340043
Soooo.... you're getting electricity from where?

>>2340044
>>2340060
OK yeah gassification does sound very attractive, but my problem is, I know how to produce mechanical energy for next to nothing and I really wish I had a nice way of storing it for a long time instead of letting it go to waste

>you're not going to go ballooning with it
I want you to ask yourself if you really know that for sure. :l

>>2340044

except for you know....fire.

it'd be a really audacious move to just rely on wood as fuel for an oncoming apocalypse, partly FOR the fact that its outside

>>2340064
>>2340064

i think this man has put forth the most useful and thought provoking advice this whole thread

nothings impossible when your insane! +1

>>2340066
mechanical energy which drives magnets

I admit, if I could make my fuel from the mechanical energy without relying on electricity as an intermediate, that would be a lot better because I don't know if magnets get fucked up over a long enough time

>>2340060
Biodiesel works out if you know how to source your own potash and alcohol. How would you do it? Hardwood ash and moonshine?

If I were going the liquid fuel route, i'd much rather just use an IDI diesel engine and go with SVO, since the energy/time/effort input starts and ends with pressing and filtering the oil. SVO has its problems though, so biodiesel would be a good backup for start/warm-up, or cold weather operation.

>>2340087
also, fuckin magnets, I'm not sure how they work

>>2339999
No problem

OP here, I'm just gonna throw something out there that I just remembered. I learned about this a month or two ago and it seemed pretty chill.

Hexamine fuel tablets! :D

Would hexamine production be remotely possible while dodging zombie stampedes? Is it a shitty solution besides?

>>2340087
Magnets are horribly fragile. Friction points (such as bearings) will likely fail first though.

>>2340072
Know what forest fires leave behind? Charcoal. Know what burns in a gassifier better than wood? Charcoal.

Wood grows back, and forest fires burn out on their own. There were billions of forest fires before man came around and started trying to put them out, and we've still got trees.

>>2340120
Well, its the product of ammonia and formaldehyde, so assuming you can make your own methanol it shouldn't be too hard.... but then you'd already have methanol so it would defeat the purpose as methanol is a very high octane racing fuel with fantastic energy density.

>>2340158
P.S. - you need the methanol to oxidize into formaldehyde.

hmmm... ok, I guess my main lingering question is what's the best way to store energy that starts out as mechanical, in the long term

the only thing I could come up with was to use the mechanical energy to lift water, which could then be streamed back down later and give you some energy back, but that is not a very good energy density at all!! so yeah...

>>2340199
Probably compressed air.

You can run a super low torque engine on it, use it to power a turbine, pneumatic tools, etc.

>>2339789
yes because the ion exchanging electrons are the protons the platinum is just the catalyst
>>2339818
you're dumb

Stop wasting you money on this shit and go buy some guns and learn to shoot, that is how you prepare for an apocalypse.

>>2340218
You know what, I feel like that really is another good option. Thanks dude. It's been a long discussion but I think it was worth it.

>>2339867
unavoidable bitch

Hydrogen is unbelievable dangerous to store in any amount that might be useful to you. Find a better fuel.

ITT: /sci/ prepares for the second real world game of Doodle God. The first was the natural course of Earth.

>>2340226
You just had to get around to the right question. That's what crowdsourcing is for.

Learn to make alcohol, invest in engines that run on it. It is cheap and can easily be made from almost anything, particularly food that has gone bad anyway. Food that has expired due to lack of refrigeration will probably be easy to find if power plants go offline.

>>2340226
>worth it
Implying that you'll be in any important apocalypse scenario at any point.

I think we've learned and grown though, and that's what matters. It's rare on the Internet that people with conflicting ideas can come together and discuss without a massive war. +1 to all, and I'm glad to know you're all out there.
/thread