/sci/ - Science & Math

How many intelligent alien civilizations began and ended in the time that you've been reading this post?

ok

Probabilities are trash. The probability that a single cell organism turns into a fish turns into a monkey turns into a fighter pilot is ridiculous.

>>2289962

>>2289974

detecting a troll

>>2289996
Detecting an idiot. Your life is based on incredibly small probabilities. A very small probability doesn't mean it doesn't happen, just as an incredibly large probability doesn't mean that it's pretty much a given it will happen. That's not how it works.

>>2289962

I've always preferred simple facts over drive-by speculation of probability, but what do I know

There have been a lot of earth like planets found over the past few years. No one thinks that there might be life in them? Like maybe they haven't evolved as quickly as we did but they might be in the neanderthal stage of life. Or maybe in the stone age etc... Or maybe they have a few thing we don't and we got thing they don't.

Number of aliens detected: 0
Number of meaningful EM transmissions detected: 0
Number of habitable planets detected: 0


You do the maths.

There is a probability that aliens exist.

The proabability we will ever encounter them is much, much lower.

And by aliens, we don't mean all this startrek bullshit where every alien society is simply a human one with fucked up ears and foreheads.

We can't really conceptualise what aliens may look like, or even if any others will be 'intelligent' in the same way we are- or even 'alive' by our current definition of 'life'.

Anyway- there's a chance of life occurring on suitible planets, there's fucktonnes of planets- problem is most of them are far away- and space travel and communication is difficult- and takes a long time.

SO aliens probably do exist, just not as we would imagine them and the chances of them or us ever making contact is virtually null.

Aliens do exist. And yes they have visited. Dont ask me for hard evidence because I have none. I do however have a book cataloguing the militaries encounters with UFOs over the past seven decades. Just look up. Not every light in the sky is a sattelite, meteor, plane, or planet.

>Aliens do exist.
>Dont ask me for hard evidence because I have none.

Then get the fuck off /sci/.

/x/ is >>>>> that way.

>>2290320
Got any other pictures buddy? Not my fault you are upset at truth staring you in the face. Then again I guess it is easy living in a world where we are the only living sentient organisms and the lack of concrete proof solidifies that fact.

>>2290268

Yet probability that life exists on mars is extremely high, probability that life exists on titan is high, europa high, enceladus high and thats just in the fucking solar system you dumb fuck.

>>2290296
There are 12 intelligent alien species in the universe at the moment.

>>2290357
I would recon its a lot more than 12.

>>2290357

[citation needed]

Seeing the current understanding of various fields of science that life could very possibly develop on other planets in conditions which do not have to be entirely similar to our Earth, it is reasonable to continue our search for extraterrestrial life and extraterrestrial intelligent life in some form or manner that at least has a significant chance of succeeding if it exists.

>>2290368
>>2290365
lrn2 Drake equation

>>2290378
Which is very accurate, you must all understand.

>>2290268

You moronic fuck. We've surveyed less than 1% of the Milky Way alone. Shut the flying fuck up.

>>2290385

A lot less

>>2290331
>>2290345

Looks like you can't do maths.

Here, I will do the maths for you.

N = the number of civilizations in our galaxy with which communication might be possible;

and
R* = the average rate of star formation per year in our galaxy
fp = the fraction of those stars that have planets
ne = the average number of planets that can potentially support life per star that has planets
fℓ = the fraction of the above that actually go on to develop life at some point
fi = the fraction of the above that actually go on to develop intelligent life
fc = the fraction of civilizations that develop a technology that releases detectable signs of their existence into space
L = the length of time for which such civilizations release detectable signals into space.

N = N* fp ne fl fi fc fL

Since ne = 0, fl = 0, fi = 0, and fc = 0

The logical conclusion is that there is 0 intelligent alien life in the observable universe.

DEALWITHIT.JPG

>>2290385
>>2290389

Hey kids, guess what?

Any number times by 0, is 0!

HERP DE FUCKING DERP MOTHAFUCKA

we dont know shit about how life began so youre an idiot for claiming such a thing

>>2290401
>Since ne = 0, fl = 0, fi = 0, and fc = 0
wait... why?
I think I'm being trolled, and it enrages me ever so slightly.

>>2290401
>there is 0 intelligent alien life in the observable universe.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Ztl8CG3Sys

>>2290407
>mfw 0! = 1

>>2290407
Off topic, but I don't understand the issue with dividing anything by zero. Why would the answer be anything other than zero, let alone infinity?

>>2290427
try putting 0 x into y. y doesn't fill up.Put more x in. y still not full. Put infinite x in, y still not full. Hence n/0=undefined

>>2290413

It's called science.

Just as atheists don't believe in a God, I don't believe in aliens.

There is simply no evidence to believe that aliens exist.

>>2290439
If you're not agnostic about aliens, then you're a moron.

>>2290439
let's do that again
Since ne = >0
we have found Earth like planets.
fl = 1/ne
1 earth like planet we know has life, others may do. research indicates life tends to spontaneously arise in the right conditions, so it's probably actually quite high.
fi = ?
can't say it's 0 as we're intelligent, and fc = ?
again we communicate so not 0

>>2290447

>agnostic

laughingelfman.jpg

>>2290433
Good point, and I get where you're coming from. But I still believe x/0 = 0.

>>2290451

Yet humans are not aliens, therefore your calculations fall flat on its stupid autistic aspie mongoloid face.

>>2290457
Drake equation is for life not aliens.
Fucking come at me brah, say that to me in real life not in the internet and see what happens; fucking nerd.

>>2290463
internet tought guy. typical reaction when someone knows they are dead wrong and their logic is flawed as all fuck.

>>2290463

>>2290483
U JELLY? U MIRIN? U MAD?
COME AT ME BRO

>>2289996
He has a point, it's basically a roll of several million dice that the human species came into being and rose to prominence

>>2290439
A point well raised, but still it's most likely wrong, given a long enough time scale and the right ingredients, life is pretty much bound to arise.

As far as humanities anecdotal experience indicates.

>>2290496
>browsing /fit/
>decide to take a quick break and go to /sci/
>see this first post
>mfw
>mfw i have no face

>>2290453
Why is that so laughable?

>>2290519
Why?
Natural selection. How does that work?

>>2290528
>mfw I'm not the only person to frequent both /sci/ and /fit/

>>2290530
He's either trolling, or he see's it as a cop out answer, I have to agree with him, I see true agnosticism as a cop out answer.

>>2290524

Your argument is that of quantum mechanics - given enough time, something that contradicts the laws of physics will happen.

No it won't. No matter how long you wait.

There will never be a perpetual machine. We will never reach absolute zero. Water will never flow upstream.

Stop fantasizing.

>>2290439

Humans evolved on earth. There is your evidence to believe that other intelligent aliens exist.

>>2290531
Natural selection doesn't make animals rise to prominence, just makes them survive better and become more efficient, we could have easily developed into gorillas instead so we could be capable of handling any larger predators that attack us instead of being smart enough to avoid them and kill them with tools.

Roll of the dice man, that's all we are.

>>2290538

>humans
>other aliens

hahahaohwow.jpg

The idea behind the drake equation is fairly robust- it's simply probabilities- the main issue is that we have a really shitty understanding of the the actual values and mechanics behind those probabilities.

Basically if there's a nonzero chance of life evolving and given the vastness of the universe there probably is other forms of life.

the problem is that we may never find them- so it's a moot point

>>2290536
In siberia rivers flow backwards.

>Mfw when you're wrong.

And you don't understand organic chemistry do you? if you have basic carbon compounds in high enough concentrations they will react, given several billion years there will be enough of certain collisions to produce lipid based compounds, which form cell walls.

>>2290541
>roll of the dice not a probability
hahaohwow.jpg

>>2290559
Completely missed the point, nicely done.

>>2290556

>In siberia rivers flow backwards
>Downstream

You are the failure.

Organic life is only possible on Earth. There is no reason it is possible anywhere else.

>>2290567
No reason it shouldn't be. Are you really this stupid, or are you trolling?

>>2290567
1 reason why organic life is impossible on similar solar systems.

1 really good reason, why organic life cannot arise elsewhere, cause right now all I see is that stupid sense of self importance most people give the human species, you know like die hard creationists.

>>2290566
You had a point?

>>2290567
Actually, you are retarded.

>>2290576

Right now all I see are stupid hippy fantasies about intelligent alien life.


The Earth is unique for many reasons, here are three.


1. Abundant liquid water.
2. A good atmosphere.
3. Not too hot or cold.

>>2290590
>1. Abundant liquid water.
due to number 3
>2. A good atmosphere.
there wasn't always
>3. Not too hot or cold.
really isn't that unlikely

You are retarded

>>2290590
Have you seen all the planets in the universe to make the statement that the earth is unique?
Yeah yeah, I know you're a troll, I'm just super bored.

>>2290590
That's it?

Seriously?

Fuck man Io and Titan could have a liquid water ocean underneath the outer crust of ice thanks to distortion of the core due to Jupiter's gravity

Our atmosphere used to be terrible, capable of killing almost any life, over time oxygen was released into the atmosphere thanks to prokaryotic life, the oxygen killed a lot of the prokaryotes off, and that's when eukaryotic life showed up on scene.

And there are a lot of planets that fall within their stars goldilocks zone.

You MUST be trolling now.

>>2290593

You are retarded.

Give me an example of a planet that has just these three, that's not the Earth.

>>2290590
6/10

>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_paradox

It's pretty good article. Read it.

>The apparent size and age of the universe suggest that many technologically advanced extraterrestrial civilizations ought to exist.
>However, this hypothesis seems inconsistent with the lack of observational evidence to support it.

>>2290605
You, read this >>2290597

>Fuck man Io and Titan could have a liquid water ocean underneath the outer crust of ice thanks to distortion of the core due to Jupiter's gravity

>could have a liquid water ocean underneath the outer crust of ice

Sounds like liberal hippy fantasies to me. Where is the liquid water? Where is the temperature required for life? Where is the good atmosphere?

All you say is "XXX PLANET COULD HAVE LIQUID WATER". Where is the evidence?

You are the trolls.

>>2290401
Courtesy of XKCD.

>>2290605
Gliese 581d
Gliese 581 g

Just two to name a few, there was another ocean world that was discovered a while ago as well that they said was pretty much just one huge ocean spanning the planet, I'm trying to find a source on it I'll get back to you when/if I do.

Let say someone blows up the sun. Is that a form of terrorism? Let say this person lives in Texas would would be his punishment?

>>2290625
No, it's not terrorism. The sun isn't owned by anybody.

And he probably wouldn't be prosecuted due to lack of life in general.

>>2290616

XKCD is not only a shitty webcomic, but written by a shitty wannabe scientist who's best retort to the drake equation is

OH YEAH WELL THAT'S BULLSHIT

compelling line of argument, isn't it~?

>>2290634
Okay. Tell me, what's the probability of life arising on a planet? Realistically?

>2290624
>On average, the light that Gliese 581 d receives from its star has about 30% of the intensity of sunlight on Earth. By comparison, sunlight on Mars has about 40% of the intensity of that on Earth. That might seem to suggest that Gliese 581 d is too cold to support liquid water and hence is inhospitable to life. However, an atmospheric greenhouse effect can significantly raise planetary temperatures.
>Might have water even though its colder than Mars
>Might have an atmosphere
>Might might maybe possibly

More bullshit from the department of cattle manure.

>>2290615
If there's liquid water, then there's temperature capable of sustaining life, it means it's above 0 Celsius, so it could be like the Arctic ocean at worst.

And the possible evidence is that Io and Titan experience regular gravitational distortion and have geysers.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/25/science/space/25tita.html

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=signs-of-hidden-ocean-under-titans-crust

>>2290636

>butthurt xkcdfag detected

The issue isn't with the drake equation fuckface, the problem is we don't know what the particular variables are- it's still a valid method of approach to the problem.

History and science are full of insolute equations- so if you think that's a point against it you'd best be trolling, nig.

>>2290646

>could be like Arctic ocean.
>possible evidence that Io and Titan have geysers.

More "could be" "possible" bullshit.

Yes, it is possible that Santa Claus exists somewhere under the Antarctic ice. It is also possible that there is an ancient reptilian illuminati conspiracy to enslave mankind.

Plausible? Not until we see some actual evidence.

>>2290647

Because science is about writing bullshit equations rather than examining actual evidence, right?

>>2290655

The evidence that Io and Titan have geysers isn't possible; we have that evidence. Io has more eruptions each year than any other body in our solar system we know of. The fact that they have geysers, and therefore internal heat, is evidence to the possibility of life on other planets deriving their heat from sources other than the star they orbit.

>>2290401

>Since ne = 0, fl = 0, fi = 0, and fc = 0

>>2290655
Then entire surface of the moon shifted, I dunno maybe it's just me but I'd say that could be evidence of a fluid acting as a lubricant below the surface.

But hey that's just my dimwitted mind.

>>2290660

>Because science is about writing bullshit equations rather than examining actual evidence, right?

Examination of evidence is not science, if you think it is, then you've been sorely misled.

Science is about testing our understanding- pushing the boundries of knowledge and hypothesis.

If all that existed was observation of evidence, then all you're left with is trial and error.

Without 'bullshit equations' like the ones written by Maxwell, Schrodinger, Einstein, Newton, we wouldn't have any way to test our understanding of the universe.

Of course, this will sail over your head, you little faggot- go crying back to your HS teacher about how developing a testable model of phenomena isn't a part of science.

Point me out one flaw in the testable model of drake's equation, and then we can have a big-boy discussion.

>>2290669

Ya, Europa's surface shifted thirty degrees. That can't happen where the ice is locked to the rock, there is obviously an ocean or at least warm ice acting as a lubricant.

I just happen to have this book, "Europa: The Ocean Moon", I should pick it up someday.

>>2290673
It really is a good feeling when someone actually jumps in and backs you up.

Mad props bro

unrelated lulzy pic for you.

>>2290673

So that means there is life on Europa? Somewhat far-fetched.

>>2290691
No you mouth breathing retard, that indicates that conditions MAY be suitable for earth like life if there is a liquid water ocean.

Again this is assuming that they obey standard earth metabolic rules and have carbon based biochemistry.

More assumptions from a mongoloid aspie.

the probability that there are endless alien species is higher when you assume at least one species has been here
for one alien species to have visited endless planets is absurd
of course there's still luck though

>>2290710
You do know right that if you get rid of the earth like biochemistry assumption, it becomes even more likely that life exists around the universe right?

Anyway I'm leaving cause you're clearly braindead/trolling.

>>2290723

Humans != aliens.
Humans exist, aliens do not.

>>2290724

Not really, your biggest assumption is that life can exist on planets other than the Earth. This is false.

You can leave now, since you just lost the argument.

>>2290728
well that didn't explain anything besides some angry guy telling us what to believe

>>2290741

And that's just a useless comment.

Try refuting my argument? Or admit you cannot.

>>2290728
Your assumption that life can't exist on other planets is fundamentally flawed.

>>2290728
>humans != aliens
no
>assume life can't exist on other planets
no

fuck off, you're ruining a perfectly decent thread

>>2290746
That wasn't an argument, that was a statement.

Give me evidence life cannot exist on other planets, bearing in mind a lack of evidence for life is not evidence for a lack of life.

>>2290728

Most uninformed opinion in this thread

I'd bet they do. I wont say anything for sure. But big as the universe is, I bet that other lifeforms at the very least exist. Seeing as not all lifeforms need oxygen.

>>2290728
> Tries to troll
> Accidently makes every non-aspie laugh at the failure

Who said /sci/ can't make you smile?

>>2290763
Name one that doesn't, liberal hippy douchebag.

>>2290785
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peptostreptococcus

For instance.
But please, keep up the arrogant attitude. I'm laughing my ass off right now.

>>2290785
Viruses, archeabacteria, protoza, protists, prokaryotic lifeforms.

So most bacteria and single celled life.

Oh also a species of muticellular deep sea life form called Spinoloricus

I'm disappointed that it's taking this long to convicne people that aliens can and do exist.


I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that we're all atheists. This means that the conditions necessary to create life are possible on Earth. There is nothing inherently special about humanity in the same way that there is nothing inherently special about an individual person; other people exist. The mere fact that life developed on Earth proves that life on other planets and locations is possible, and also in other, more hostile areas. (lrn2extremophile). You sir, must state why life is not possible anywhere else if it developed on Earth.

>>2290807
Don't try dude, it's wasted time and it's like trying to get blood from a stone.

>>2290807
>can

Yes.

>do

Not yet provable. We need to find evidence of alien life existing (as opposed to evidence that alien life _can_ exist).

>>2290823

I suppose by that logic, every particle physics phenomenon that was ever mathematically predicted does not exist, even though its very likely.

>>2290823
Fuck you. You're just one lazy childish agnostic who doesn't have enough courage to say his conclusion out loud. Please grow up

>mfw aliens have been on the earth for thousands of years
>mfw they actually fucking rule us now

fucking reeks of butthurt in here, NO EVIDENCE FOR ALIENS, NEVER SEEN ANY ALIENS, NO ONE HAS EVER SEEN ANY ALIENS, NO PROOF OF ALIENS, JUST THEORETICAL SUMS WHICH ARE OFTEN DISCREDITED AND HIGHLY DEBATABLE

>mfw logic implies aliens can't into true

So people reject the idea of UFOs, but accept the idea that intelligent alien life exists? What a contradiction

look at chinese/japanese people and tell me with a straight face that aliens do not exist.

I am actually an alien. You're all wrong. There are literally millions of us here on your shitty fucking wet rock just seeing what you faggots actually do.

And let me tell you; we are not impressed.

suddenly, Carl Sagan

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dilKJ6uLCc8

>>2290962

Of course, the problem is that people WANT to believe in aliens, thus providing a bias.

>You sir, must state why life is not possible anywhere else if it developed on Earth.

Not who you're addressing, but as far as I know, all life on this planet came from the same development: DNA. So when we use the Earth, we have to keep in mind that a planet that has supported many, many kinds of different types of life...has only produced, to our knowledge, one evolutionary tree. This planet may not be special in terms of its chemical or physical laws, but it may be special in its statistical fortune, a one-in-n chance of the seed of life, where n is much greater than the total number of planets in the universe.

>>2290967
red bar

>>2290966
It's highly reasonable to believe that extraterrestial intelligence exists in the universe but it's very stupid to think that they have visited earth (because of great distances).

but guys, don't you know we're all ruled by aliens?

http://www.truthism.com/

>>2289950
I once heard from my physics teacher that there is a very high probability of there being another world exactly the same as this one, with another me, writing the same message to all of you.

>>2291499
he was most likely referring to string theory. and yes. I brought this thread back right before it was lost forever.

Well, there is no reason God did not create other intelligent life besides us.

ITT: former followers of the geocentric life model taking baby steps

The probability is higher that aliens do exist then that humans exist

if humans existed, someone would have seen evidence of them by now

think of it this way you non belivers for every single grain of sand on earth there are 100 million stars in the universe. where there are stars there are also planets. so you do the math

bump for more geocentrism shattering.