/sci/ - Science & Math

The event horizon would prevent us from ever getting there.

I'd better get back to building my event-horizon- and tidal-effects-proof bunker.

>>2226091
ZING

Why do transhumans want to build Singularity?

Won't it suck up the entire universe into a black hole and start a new universe through a new Big Crunch?

> rapture_for_nerds.jpg.exe

>>2226120

smug_comments_with_no_factually_based_counter-arguments.flac

>>2226079
>singularity
you're on the wrong board

>>>/lit/

>>2226120
>cassini_division_by_Ken_Macleod.jpg

The Singularity is the fucking raddest thing ever.

It's the only thing that makes the future still look promising.

>>2226126
> proposes absolute fiction
> demands facts from others

mfw singularity happens.

Explain to me what the Singularity is? A pro-capitalist brain? What? Mass-suicide through no meaning to existence? I don't understand

>>2226141

The sun rising tomorrow is still absolute fiction, unverifiable by data.

I'm still counting on it happening.

As for the singularity, there's The Singularity is Near by Ray Kurzweil which is probably the most well researched and argued statement of future technological prediction ever committed to writing.

I woke up one day and decided that "I don't want to be a capitalist," does that make me an enemy of the singularity worshipping faggots?

>>2226149

>He doesn't know the Singularity

>>2226154
naw, just makes you a state worshiping faggot.

>>2226151
> cites Kurzweil
If it's anything like "The Age of Spiritual Machines," it's complete fucking garbage.

2012 it happens.

>Computers make us obsolete, they become posthuman Gods and Dyson Sphere the whole Universe
>We become like microbes on the skin of a human
>They are also supposed to make us immortal and allow us to live in their computronium even though we are inferior and it's hard and wasteful to upgrade us

Sure does make sense to me I'm going to donate to Singularity University so Kurzweil can cash his next check in the troll bank.

Actually, the singularity happened 100 years ago. It was called the industrial revolution then. So each second goes by actually takes us further from the singularity.

>>2226206
what if we throw in some blue catgirl sex slaves to sweeten the deal?

>>2226149
An exponential outgrowth of mental and physical augmentation (through machines) that will lead to either:

a) human minds spiraling into a unified, hyper-intelligent noosphere (basically a hive mind), wherein all minds are immortal and boundless and capable of creating virtual universes to inhabit

b) machines developing sapience independently of humans and falling into their own exponential continuum of increasing intelligence, for good or for ill (one famous short story suggests that a A.I. falling into such a continuum would be able to manipulate whole galaxies within hours)

Crazy shit, and all fantasy.

>>2226215

>>2226217

An exponential outgrowth of aeronautical science and heavier-than-air flying machines, which will lead to either

Humans routinely flying around the world and distances becoming obsolete

Giant "airplanes" killing us at random like hawks hunt rabbits, because we can't fly and are therefore obsolete

Crazy shit, and all fantasy.

>>2226237
oh wow

>>2226217

Far worse than the people that unquestioningly buy into ideas are those who unquestioningly reject them.

I can just imagine your great great grandfather twiddling his moustache and elbowing his chums in the cat meat shop when he reads of carts that move without the assistance of horses.

Technology will move on from now, and even a cursory glance at the existing trend of technology to assist humans in overcoming the shortcomings of their own biology, beginning with the sharpened stick and animal skin cloak, extending through to our quantum computing, will reveal that there is much more work to be done.

One of the founders of Google said that if he was going into venture capital for the first time today, it would 100% be into biotechnology.

You have no idea.

>>2226237
Yes, because history and future speculation are one and the same.

derp^infinity

>>2226278
> put bacterial culture into petri dish with growth medium
> HOLY SHIT EXPONENTIAL GROWTH
> SOON THIS BACTERIA WILL COVER THE ENTIRE SURFACE OF THE EARTH AND BE OVER 1 KM THICK

on a slightly related topic - I have recently accepted how inferior humans are to robots and I believe it is our final goal of creating beings superior to us, which will then exterminate us and rule the universe as our children

anyone else share this view?

>>2226290

Your example only pertains to the growth of organisms, you cannot generalise that to technological growth without stating a fundamentally limiting factor.

>>2226302

What about the edge of physics as a limiting factor?

>>2226300
>which will then exterminate us

Yes, because we have decided to exterminate all animal life on Earth because it is "inferior" to us.

>>2226306

This would be useful if we actually knew what the edge of physics was.

>>2226307
once they are capable of self-sustained existance and cognition humans will become obsolete

>>2226307

Problem is that they all have functions -- Which can be improved.

And with that I mean replacing every animal on Earth with a thousand-times more efficient robot. Which can't be done because limits of possible efficiencies in different ones will lead to uneven competition and that's it.q

So, the whole issue is about EXPONENTIAL GROOOOOWTH vs. it might not stay exponential?
Whatever, as long as I get my mind uploading. Or atleast bionic eyes and high speed, wireless internet connection built into my brain. My only purpose to go outside will be to strip people down with augmented reality.

>>2226326
nerve cells are still unrenewable, meaning the only possibility of your conciousness surviving is being uploaded into a computer, then again YOU don't really benefit from that, your clone does

>>2226300

We are the only species capable of saving carbon life forms that we know of....one day we will be inter stella and take all the species we can with us.

>>2226339
it's pointless, create a database of all human knowledge and build it into our machine creations

they will be capable of things we can never dream of... like a singular conciousness in multiple execution bodies sharing information and gaining knowledge at an exponential rate unimaginable to humans

>>2226332
If consiousness is a by-product of our neurological patterns, what's to distinguish my physical self from my "cloned" self, provided it is an exact replica?

>>2226326

>my mind uploaded

I participated in a discussion about this a few months ago. Someone raised a point that it wouldn't be you in the computer. You do not get to make that transition. It's simply a copy of your data. Like a clone.

From this, I've come up with the idea of a gradual introduction to the computer or network; A sort of duality process involving either interacting with a robotic body in a "dream" while asleep. Later in the program you slowly integrate the robot's functions into everyday life, so that you are able to see and act through the robot at the same time you live through your normal body, over time removing functions from the human side of you so that you only act through the robot.

But would that just be an illusion to remove the fear of being discarded in favor of a robot housing your personality?

>>2226396

>either

Whoops, remove that.

captcha "humani spirit"

>>2226332
>>2226368
Oh here we go

>>2226396
VERY interesting point. It seems as if even today we are already slowly embedding computers into our lives, and mind uploading would simply be a continuation of what we've been doing.

>>2226368
okay let me ask you this

would you sacrifice yourself to save your biological clone?

>>2226396

If your awareness is simply the transfer of electrical impulses between neurons, then to replace the cells whilst retaining the neurological configuration would preserve your sense of self.

>>2226302
Here is a limit for you. Current microchips have been making improvements in speed by reducing transistor size and using the lower heat and power consumption to add in more transistors.
two decades ago, transistors for the 486 were ~1000 nm
Current CPUs use 32nm transistors.
The theoretical lower limit for transistors is 11nm, meaning we have at most 3 more generations (22nm, 16nm, and 11nm) before moore's law comes to an end in 2015, though in reality, a reliable 11nm production will be unlikely so it's more likely to be 2013.

>>2226396
Probably best to just cybernetically swap out your brain piece by small piece over time, using nanobots or something. That seems like the only way for a non-copy to survive.

People who think they'll just exist after having their mind copied into data and put into a machine are as delusional as the afterlife believers. It works on the same principle too; fear of death.

you guys know nothing about science

>>2226441
You know so little about neurology I want to go through the computer screen and choke you.

If you made a 100% copy of someone, that copy isn't them, even if you killed the original.

>>2226368
The only one who would be able to tell would be you, when you suddenly cease to exist.

>>2226442
>mfw traditional transistors will probably be replaced by some sort of bio-chemical transistors that can be much smaller than 10nm

>>2226441
Unfortunately it's much deeper than that.

How about this, a nondestructive upload would work just as fine, wouldn't it? If a copy of your mind is uploaded onto a computer 100% and you're still laying in bed with the copy in the computer...

Which one are you?

>>2226463
anything biological would be much, much larger than 10, or even 45 nm. What you would need to look for is advances in nanoelectronics.

>>2226463
/agree

new paradigm will replace the old ones

see: quantum/photon computers, etc

>>2226476
why is that?

the radius of a carbon atom is 70pm

>>2226461

You're not making a copy, you're just gradually replacing the neurons. If your brain made new neurons, you do not suddenly lose cognitive funtion, that's because awareness is emergent from the combined exchange of data from your massively parallel neurological network. The individual cells do not magically harness your sense of awareness. It's the data exchange that counts, and if this is preserved, then so is your own individual awareness.

This is not the same as say scanning the brain somehow and creating a replica.

You need to choke yourself.

>>2226481
We have been using the same paradigm since the 1971, what makes you think there will be a new one?

>>2226481
quantum computers brah, particle rotation defines 0 or 1

now thats a computer that can run Crysis maxed out

>>2226498
what makes you oppose that?

If there is another "me" in the real world, it's just an instance of me. I don't want the original instance to end.

>>2226438
Point taken.

Then the next logical step would be to gradually replace your brain I guess. Would that be akin to the acquisition of new experiences and memories?

>>2226498
BECAUSE LIMITS INSPIRE INNOVATION, HISTORY SHOWS THIS

MOORE'S LAW HAS BEEN HAPPENING SINCE WAY BEFORE MOORE AND WILL CONTINUE AND HAS NEVER STOPPED

SO SAYETH THE RULER OF BETHOS, KURZWEIL!

>>2226488
actually now that I think about it

your brain can add new neurons that get integraded into the neurotic network

so if you added some sort of non-biological substitute and had it connect with the network successfuly you could slowly replace brain cells with said substitutes without loss of conciousness ever

>>2226517
Adding a 100% copy of your brain into your head immediately though, one made out of non-organic matter, would be interesting. Though it would probably kill the original.

You all assume that a "self" exists. I don't believe it does. It is an abstraction created by our minds in order to better deal with the world. "Johnny is greedy" can be helpful even if there isn't a persistent Johnny. That brain inside that body we call Johnny has shown patterns of valuing itself much higher than others.

Every single moment your brain is altered, and every alteration creates a new personality. None of them last past that moment. The reason many qualities of one personality arising from one brain are the same as other personalities arising from the same brain is because the brain frameworks that define the personalities are achieved by changing the frameworks which made the others. It can be thought of as a continuous function.

Ramble ramble ramble.....

It doesn't really matter if computers stopped evolving soon. The gap isn't too great to achieve superintelligence anyway, we can get the required computing power by using modern technology in vast quantities. Maybe it'll take a house full of computers to simulate a human brain like intelligence, but so what? If we could make building computers (and maybe electricity) a lot cheaper, it wouldn't matter so much. Self-replicating computers would be nice. Even something biological. Oh wait, these are already called humans.

>>2226531
Personalities never really change. They're all hardwired into the brain from a young age. People don't psychologically change without some amount of damage to the brain.

I know that's not what you mean though, but the brain's turnover rate for cells isn't that high.

>>2226531
keep rambling, i like this

I personally think we are all one entity somehow, connected in harmony and no coincidences happen (ie can be explained by science!). Consciousness itself is just an illusion and all things in the universe have their own consciousness just at different levels. etc etc

now i sound like a hippie

>>2226505
here

>>2226531

That's another thing. If there are two instances of me, they will progress differently. In my mind only the first one counts. Sorry if that sounds selfish, I'm just thinking about myself.

I think Ghost in the Shell covered this already.

Dammit /sci/ reply faster. This is interesting.

>>2226584

There's nothing else left to say but:

My body is ready.

Somewhat related troll physics.

But in all seriousnes, I have always been interested in the idea of conecting multiple human nervous systems together. Regardles of what happens, testing that will propaply answer lot of questions about the nature of human mind.

I wonder if it has been tested, if not, somebody ought to.

Also we should try the same thing with animals and humans, that would be interesting.

>>2226656
I dont think we have the tecnology to test that yet.

>>2226559
Deus Ex superior.

>>2226721
<bad language>
On the other hand Alpha Centauri superiouser.
Of course depending on your taste.

The gripping hand is, Deus Ex and Alpha Centauri both most superioust.
</bad language>

>>2226351

Agreed. But that is just evolution of the current life form. What would the machines create?

>>>/n/
>>>/i/
>>>/g/
>>>/e/
>>>/r/

>>2226779
>>>/k/
>>>/o/
>>>/n/
>>>/g/
>>>/o/

>>>/n/
>>>/i/
>>>/l/
>>>/e/

>>2226779
>>2226795

What are you implying?

>>2226826
I don't know what >2226779
was implying. I just decided to add to the list of african rivers that he started.

>>2226834

Oh, I didn't notice that. Carry on, good sir.

>>2226656
If you're thinking about connecting separate human minds together, then you're probably going to deal with Qualia sooner or later.

The basic idea: Say we're both looking at a cup. It happens to be red. Is your red the same as mine? Do both of our brains interpret the color in the same way?

You could say "probably," because both of our brains are based on the same underlying pattern, but the truth is we don't know. A connection experiment would help us find out. And it'd be cool.

balump

>>2226543
I heard an interesting theory lately that some sort of quantum consciousness is built into the universe
Our brain doesn't create consciousness, it merely amplifies these discreet units of consciousness according to the theory

>>2227418
I wonder if this is testable.

>>2227457
I cant remember most of the article but Ill try
Apparently consciousness is caused by wave function collapses affecting microtubules in neurons
I think its from a book named emperors new mind or something

>>2227475
You're right, that's the title.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emperor%27s_New_Mind

It's a fascinating idea.

>>2227498
Wait
idler from before
the fuck is this

False! you mean the opposite of Singularity. Second law of thermal dynamics...just sayin

>>2226531

Isn't it sort of contradictory to refer to people and then say that the self doesn't exist? Just because the self is constantly changing doesn't mean that it isn't the same entity perceiving these changes. I am not the same person I was five or ten years ago, nor will I be hence, but I am still the same entity. This is why personal continuity is so important when mind-uploading is discussed: We might be able to create a copy of who I am now on a computer, but my continuity and its diverge, creating two distinct entities.

It gets sort of trippy from there for me, when things are brought up like transferring the then-digitized consciousness, or whether transferring piecemeal is all that different. At the end of the day, I'm forced to conclude that we're missing a piece of the puzzle here.

for ideas on what the singularity would be like i highly recomend the 'eclipse phase' rpg core book.


minus the parts where humanity is nearly driven extict by a recursively intelligent post singularity ai-network that was infected by a multi-vector reality virus failsafe placed by hyper advanced ETI's to activate when a certain technological level is attained, its a good depiction of trans-human society.

categories and definitions (i.e. the self) are ultimately meaningless, but are useful and nessisary shorthand to describe the system in varying levels of detail

conciousness is memory.

the truth of somthing is self-evident

a suitably understanding system could predict everything everywhere forever from two consecutive moments in time.

the way to make created intelligence viable is to utilize key-features based shorthand with perception, proccessing, and memory storage. i.e. using only parts and outstanding features for operation to save space, as opposed to direct translation of data. (examples include, ambulatory organisms on earth)

the line between organic and artificial is arbitrary, worth noting simply because different materials have different properties, and that things work differently when configured differently (which is patently obvious)

>>2230206
Well that was disappointing

>>2227418
>mfw that would explain SO MUCH
>FUCKING. EVERYTHING.

>>2227418

>consciousness is built into the universe
>amplifies these discreet units of consciousness according to the theory

>>2227418
so the universe=pandora?
no wonder Colonel Coffeemug is here! BLUE SPACE NIGGERS FOR EVERYONE

>>2227418

>consciousness is built into the universe
>amplifies these discreet units of consciousness according to the theory

>>2232329

>BLUE SPACE NIGGERS FOR EVERYONE

>>2232341

>>2232341
deal with it, NERD

>>2232348
I ain't mad, but feel like I shouldn't have to have a blue space nigger if I don't want one. If you want one that's fine, just don't force me to have one.

>>2232362

But don't you want to have the option, at least the option, to have a blue space nigger?

>>2232362
Then you'll have to give it to someone else! And then BLUE SPACE NIGGER TRADE will become a monopoly!

>>2232371
I never said I didn't want the option, and I wouldn't mind it. The way it was worded originally I felt I had to have one, no questions asked.

>>2232373

I WILL HAVE TWO

No, wait, I'd probably only want one to be loyal to, preferably an emotionally crippled one who is constantly discriminated for being a furry, so I will be the only person who doesn't treat her like an animal, so she will have no choice but to love me!

Soon brothers

>>2232406
>implying total harmony and stagnation is good

>>2232402
>full /r9k/

get a hold of yourself, jesus man

>>2232431

you just be jelly because my plan is perfect!

>>2232469
it is perfect, but also really pathetic.
just make a sexbot like the rest of us; statuitory domination is low-tier.

Did you know that Half-Life 2 is an anti-transhumanist game? It also depicts what might happen as we approach the singularity - a scientific dictatorship with a huge tax rate and total government control.
I'm pretty sure it's going to happen in the next 10-25 years, due to the promotion of the scientific world view, which also spreads in the area of social management. Half-Life 2 is a game which fought against the scientific management of values and beliefs. The combine are called 'transhuman forced' throughout the game, so you can probably see what's going on.

Coming in the very near future: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lB5BDkok2XM

>>2232480

But sexbots aren't posthuman, and if they were they'd refuse to be sexbots. If I'm going to have a relationshit with somebody she has to be intellectually stimulating!

Besides that sweet sweet chest tuft >;3~~

not if christians have anything to say about it

>>2232406
Half-Life 2 transhuman propaganda poster

>>2232485
I wouldn't say Half-Life 2 is anti-transhumanist. It's more about resisting forced assimilation by an outside species.

>>2232535
The combine and 'transhuman forces' are used interchangeably. Not only that, the Kleiner Cast from Episode 1 says this: 'Some of our neighbors have allowed themselves to be co-opted, and purged of their humanity, by the military machine.'
The dictator (Breen) in Half-Life 2 was also a director of a research facility.

>>2232573
Right, but humanity is being forced to change by a warlike alien species that really is only interested in stripping Earth of its resources. I'd object to that too. Also, Breen is just a puppet and really only took the position to save his own skin.

There's really no way to tell if the populace would object to voluntary and human-initiated transhumanism.

all this talk of sentient robots reminds me of the borg off of star trek

>>2232402
Looks like Colonel CoffeeMug is a furfag. Not that I have a problem with that.

Transhumans furries, you say? "transfurries" maybe?

>>2232911

>Old news

Well, anything but parahuman. That sounds... Somewhat derogatory. Splices, rianths, transfurries, or just furries is fine.

>>2232535
This. Plus, you hit aliens, zombies and headcrabs.

>>2232930
How would you deal with the discrimination? We would not be considered humans. Unless there's a shitton of furries, so we would have our own nation (or planet, possibly).

PS. I want to read some of your stories. Have you finished any of them?

>>2232943

>How would you deal with the discrimination? We would not be considered humans.

Wait, you're talking about turning a person into a furry, or talking from the furry's point of view. Do you mean *they* would not be considered humans. And for the discrimination, well, in my story I just have the two (Only two) furries deal with it. One is a propulsion engineer so she gets all sorts of shit from fucking xenophobic piece of shit tea partier luddite engineers. The other is a military-trained wolf person who can fill you with diamond powder moving at Mach 30 before you even recognize the threat, so she doesn't get any shit.

>Unless there's a shitton of furries, so we would have our own nation (or planet, possibly).

Splice colonies. Duly noted.

>PS. I want to read some of your stories. Have you finished any of them?

Well, I think I have a few finished mildly-edited ones here or there.

captcha: Deploce furnace

>>2232982
Wow, didn't know you had thought of a story with furries. Nice one there.

>>2233035

Posthuman furries.

Particularly, a Homo Sapiens/Neofelis Nebulosa hybrid who turned a tennis ball inside out with no cuts, holes, incisions or patches, and nobody can figure out how on Earth she did that. Fucking posthumans how do they think?

Pic related. Pic oh so related.

>>2233046
If you're a post-human that can turn tennis balls inside out with your mind, why are you a persecuted furry?

>>2233046
I'm pretty sure she did it with magnets. And dark matter.

Universe is fuzzy. Will not converge. It will be unable to exceed quantum randomness. Better make other plans.

>>2233070
>implying I needed a singularity to fulfill my trans-human dreams

I can still cruise around the cosmos with my enhanced body and mind and my sex clone harem in my mighty spaceship.

>>2233054

>If you're a post-human that can turn tennis balls inside out with your mind, why are you a persecuted furry?

Well, for one because she was a furry.

"hurr durr who cares if she turnes a tennis ball inside out or if she represents the Singularity, the next paradigm shift in the universe's march towards complexity, she has fur and that's a sin against our lord and saviour Jesus Christ and it's also a part of the social-communist Obamacare neo-muslim Illuminati conspiracy."

Fucking fictional luddites ruining my glorious fictional nanotech utopias.

>>2233070
>implying I needed a singularity to fulfill my trans-human dreams

I can still cruise around the cosmos with my enhanced body and mind and my sex clone harem in my mighty spaceship.

>>2233089
I wasn't saying it was bad. I'm just saying I don't get the persecution part, If your a post-human isn't space-time supposed to be your bitch? Ergo no persecution. You could either leave or nuke their asses.

>>2233103

She was a posthuman in the sense that she could think better and in different ways, the tennis-ball-turned-inside-out-with-no-perforations was to demonstrate how different her though processes were from those of humans.

She didn't have space-time engineering, Jesus, she was not a creepy Kurzwelian archailect posthuman godess or some shit. Though she kinda went full Dyson Sphere around 900 AY.

That is After Yuri.

Gnosticism with a fresh coat of paint. Eleusis called- they want their con game back.

>>2233091
>mfw this doesn't happen and you die like everyone else.

>>2233139
I know, but if I don't try it never will happen.

>mfw I die

>>2233114
Oh then nvm.

>>2233114
>Yuri

Your orders, my ideas.

>>2232573
Important to note: The protagonists in Half-Life games are scientists too.

Have you considered that Gabe Newell just needed something for the players to kill and the Borg meets Vichy France was a cool choice for that?

>>2233162
Most unimaginative.

>>2233943
Also it wouldn't even matter if Half Life 2 was anti-transhumanist, when there are other games like Bioshock and Deus Ex which which encourage body augmentation.

>>2233983
>bioshock
>encourage body augmentation

Oh, I wouldn't quite say *THAT*...

This thread is like /sci/ just learned the ">mfw" and ">implying" memes.

>>2232485
Lolwut? The only way Gorden can defeat his enimies is with an advanced hazard protection suit which he never takes off. How exactly is an almost cyborg scientist hero anti transhumanist?

>>2226214
That was someone else's Singularity. Ours remain in the future. If we are really lucky, or really unlucky, each of us will recognize when our personal Singularity, the point past which we cannot imagine, arrives.

The idea that a mass Singularity will occur is almost religious.

>>2234299
Industrial revolution was only a singularity of greed, since that was the only thing that grew to infinities.

>>2227418
>Our brain doesn't create consciousness, it merely amplifies these discreet units of consciousness according to the theory
Fucking thetans, scientology was right!

>>2234315
We've already reached an information singularity.

As a species, we're recording information faster than we can analyze it. The incidental cost of recording new information has fallen close enough to zero that it has become inconsequential, and using only existing techniques if there are any revelations about nature to be differentiated from said information they will eventually be found. The incidental cost of analyzing said information is decreasing every year, and we appear to be heading for another singularity on that front.

I see no reason to disagree with the fundamental principles Kurzwiel puts forth, even if his timelines are crap.

>>2232982
>fursecuted by fucking xenophobic piece of shit tea partier luddite engineers

>military physically omnipotent mary sue

I would have less of a problem with furries if they didn't spend 100% of their time developing better ways to wank about themselves.

>>2236421

Those were two different people:

>>fursecuted by fucking xenophobic piece of shit tea partier luddite engineers
Not:
>>military physically omnipotent mary sue

And only the posthuman one was mildly mary sue'd. The military one was such a cunt.