/sci/ - Science & Math

>>2138314
For the ones wondering, this is referring to the Big Bang & the promotion of life via H2O - the verse is very clear about it.

Thales believed water was the prime element.

The Maori people believed the heavens and the earth were once joined.

You jelly, Islam?

SECRET MESSAGES ALL UP IN SACRED TEXT

>>2138343
Prove it.

Allah even showed the illiterate ones that the universe is expanding.

"We have constructed the heaven with might, and verily, it is We who are expanding it"(51:47)

>>2138379
Doesn't really mean the exact same thing in Islam.

>>2138314

Actually, op, you've got us. You're totally right, Islam is the true religion.

Now, does the Qur'an say anything about the Higgs boson? What about why matter pervades the universe and not antimatter? How about something small like why Neptune's magnetic center is not at the center of the planet and off axis?

I'd really like to know these answers.

>>2138327
If the verse is very clear, why do you need to explain it?

You felt the need to explain it, thus the verse is not very clear.

you are a liar, you say that something is clear when you can easily see for yourself that it is not.

why do you lie, muslim?

>>2138360

"For it is necessary that there be some nature (φύσις), either one or more than one, from which become the other things of the object being saved... Thales the founder of this type of philosophy says that it is water."
-Aristotle, Metaphysics

"Rangi and Papa are the primordial parents, the sky father and the earth mother who lie locked together in a tight embrace. They have many children[2] all of which are male, who are forced to live in the cramped darkness between them.[3] These children grow and discuss among themselves what it would be like to live in the light. Tūmatauenga, the fiercest of the children, proposes that the best solution to their predicament is to kill their parents"
-Wikipedia

only 1500 years?

ffffffttt...the Bönpos would like to have a word with you

>>2138404

I'm not lying - I'm merely pointing to it's clarity.
You're simply implying that my admiration for it's clarity undermines it's straight forward nature.

>>2138420
no, I am implying that you said:
>the verse is very clear
but that you did:
explain the verse- demonstrating a lack of belief in its clarity.

are you always dishonest and stupid, or just when you come here?

>>2138403
If Islam showed everything, then this life wouldn't be a test. Everyone would believe, and the test wouldn't be adequate enough to distinguish the worthy believers from the unworthy ones.

You have to take into account 1500 years ago.
No tools, no science, no telescope - just hard facts to test your faith.

>>2138420

You seemed to have skipped over my questions >>2138403 in this post. I'd really appreciate it if you help me find the answers to those questions. I think the semantics of your argument can wait; I already believe you!

I'd like to hear more about this truth so I can stop thinking about these unsolved problems in physics.

>>2138431
The verse is clear.
The interpretation is of course, subjective - so it's a matter of being honest with yourself, rather than finding truth though me. Name calling is childish by the way - and I smell jelly from your obvious hostility.

>>2138455
Don't stop thinking - that promotes ignorance, which is a sin according to Islam.
I've already answered your question, look up.

>>2138458
You are correct about the hostility, though not about the jealousy. If I actualy wished to be like you all I need to do is sniff paint for a few years.

>>2138443

Sorry, I jumped the gun.

So, you're saying that Islam can't give me any answers to fundamental problems about physics because I have to find them myself? Then what good is your religion?

Further, if they knew about the cosmic expansion 1500 years ago or whatever, why do they not know about dark matter and dark energy or any of the other wacky things I was mentioning before.

HA, god /sci/ you guys are so smart... yet so fucking guillible. Or is it that apparent stupidity of OP drives you guys nuts?

Seriously, I did pretty much the same thing as OP a few months ago, by pretending to be some muslim quoting scripture.

>>2138443
>creator creates people
>gives them vague idea about his existence, no solid evidence, no facts
>tells them to murder each other for virgins
>it's all coming together

>>2138477
As sad as it is, there are actually people in the world that believe stuff like that.

>>2138477

>Implying anyone believe he was actually muslim

I still have trouble believing there are genuine christians on this website. I don't live in Jesusland, you see, and thus have trouble coming to grips with the fact that those people exist. I still argue with them on the internet, though, despite being fully convinced they're an atheist troll. This is what this website is for. That and cp.

>>2138477

You don't enjoy stupid arguments?

Let's be serious, this is the internet. Who doesn't love stupid arguments on the internet?

>>2138415
That's not only clear, but inaccurate.
Thales believed everything came out of water, which is not true. The Quran is specific in saying that every living thing came out of water.

And the 2nd paragraph is simply a form of dualism.

>>2138477
I just like muslim-baiting.

every now and then you find a real one, they have tempers like those bombs they like to strap on people. You haven't trolled until you've trolled a muslim.

Plus there's the bonus that they try to find you and kill your family. I mean honestly, what christian, jew, hindu or atheist does that?

it's like hunting tigers. stupid, really angry tigers.

>>2138475
What you're asking for is ridiculous.
If we're to go down that path, what you request from the Quran is potentially limitless. If you received the answer to every question you have, then your life has no purpose. According to the Quran, the point of this life is to be righteous, gain knowledge to make everyone around you live a better life, and readily face God in the time of judgment.

ITT: Religions data snooping their own texts and post-hoc fallacies to explain scientific achievements.

>>2138512
thats not what the quran teaches at all. enjoy your delusions, we've already proved your bullshit is not unique, just ideas other people had before you. if you wan't to assert it proves your sacred text, you must concede other sacred texts and philosophy are the word of god, after all? how could they know it was true thousands of years ago?

>>2138512
>make everyone around you live a better life
Unless they don't agree with your religion. Then you kill them.

>>2138539
Other sacred texts must be clear in their claims.
If you can find this kind of clarity & accuracy in other sacred texts, especially in stone cold facts like the ones that the Quran is claiming, then you may have a point - but I doubt you'll be able to find an adequate match. You haven't proved anything.

>>2138512

Dude, if you're going to pretend to be a muslim always start your responses with "with all respect"
and always be sure to talk down to the poster you are responding to, talk about his ignorance of the scripture, the holy word and never refer to "god". Muslims don't say that. Always include quotes from either quaran (not koran) and also the haddith to back up your points. Be incredibly sanctimonious.

>>2138546
There's extremists in every religion.
Bush thought he was fighting a Holy war in the Middle East, and he is christian.
Your point is moot.

>>2138559

Sorry, you didn't say koran. But listen to the other points. Oh and always include stories and proverbs (e.g. Rich man cannot lead a wife to heaven just as a blind man cannot lead tourists to the al berj etc etc.". That kind of stuff drives me fucking nuts.

>>2138559

You're a well versed troll. Have you considered founding a college?

>>2138546

>>2138569
Your satire is a sign of weakness.

>>2138559
If you want to see the Christian equivalent of this, watch the Dawkins interview with that bitch who's name I forgot already.

>>2138512

>gain knowledge to make everyone around you live a better life

Clearly, then, I cannot gain this knowledge through the Qur'an because if I gain knowledge by having questions answered then I no longer have a purpose even if I set out to make everyone live a better life. It would seem the knowledge that comes from the Qur'an produces nihilism where as knowledge that I gain elsewhere can be helpful in making others lives better.

>what you request from the Quran is potentially limitless

I'm requesting truth about the fundamental nature of the universe which you have already claimed the Qur'an has. Is it really the case that the only truths contained in the Qur'an are those demonstrated by scientists independent of the knowledge in the book? If so, what good does this book do me?

>>2138559
ex muslims here. some muslims refer to "god" and crazy right wing assholes don't. basically christians, jews and muslim are considered "ahle kitaab" and thus worshipping the same god. people believe one or other would be the best world religion but frankly i think we would be better off without. cue in "religion makes good people do bad things quote"

oh yeah and OP is a super fag who has ascended beyond the level of a normal fag. i can practicably smell the faggot off the internet.

>>2138556
See what happens, is an event occurs perhaps a scientific discovery.
Then you search and scour a religious text (in this case the Quran) looking for statements (pulled out of context) that can support it if interpreted in a certain manner.

If expanding universe theory is debunked, then you will most likely re-interpret the statement in the OP.

Its a bias. You don't personally have to see it, for it to be there.

You shouldn't be looking for religious excerpts that can be loosely correlated to scientific discovery. You should look for ways the Quaran can be faulted. It must stand up to rigorous questioning to be taken seriously.

When you have spent your entire life questioning it, and on your death bed if you believe that it stood the test and you could not fault it in any manner, then you can die a happy religious believer.

>>2138580
smoking hot wendy wright

>>2138586
ahle kitaab means people of the book. in this case the three holy books of each religion

>>2138588
If people actually questioned their religions, there would be no religious people.

>>2138573
>>2138546
look im as atheist as the next guy but why do all you buttards rule out socioeconomic factors in violence? why do you always blame religion? maybe people just suck

>>2138573
Statistics don't do you a favor.
It's safe to say that in this day & age, you know, the Western enlightenment era - the mass killing is done by Judeo-Christian men. You cannot be a hypocrite & ignore this. There's a lot of civilians dying in the Middle East right now. You have nothing to be scared of, Wikileaks has all the numbers, just look around, you'll find the answers.

>>2138599

On the contrary, it seems that religiosity is a product of human psychology. Check out Sweden. It's supposedly the most atheistic population of people but they also have the widest variety of spiritual beliefs.

I don't have a source so my mind is open to refutation.

I was going to ask why you fags are continuing to respond to the OP when he's clearly a non-muslim faget but whatever. Enjoy your own fail /sci/.

Allah-damnit.

Sorry OP, but it doesn't follow.

Just because a vague piece of poetry from the Koran can be interpreted to reflect some understanding of modern cosmology doesn't mean that:

a) no other culture, either before or after could not also have come to similar assumptions about the nature of the universe.

b) that any understanding or assumption by ancient muslims about the nature of the cosmos was in fact divine in origin.

The problem is that you are starting from the position that the Koran is in fact divine in origin when there is absolutely no evidence that that is the case.

By your logic, The Lord of the Rings must be based in fact because archaeologists have found the remains of hobbit sized primates. JRR Tolkien is a prophet, because there's no way he could have known about hobbits unless his work was inspired by the spirit of Elrond.

>>2138620
amatuer evolutionary theory.

It is evolutionary advantageous for people to be spiritual. The idea of religion in a world without inquiry gives you the power to have some degree of control over your environment. For example our ancestors must have been terrified by phemonmena like lightining and such and so created religion because they thought there may be a way to control stuff like this. As civilizations expanded and people met other groups with their own religions, this became more important. Religion served a political role of being able to subjegate the masses and so on. (pharoahs) People who grew up beliveing in these religions also belonged to tribes and of course being in a tribe increases your chances of survival.

>>2138610
Why do I blame religion for inciting violence?
Oh I dunno maybe the fact that in the text it is stated plainly that infidels should be killed and that holy war and martyrdom are of the highest possible duties of a mortal man?

>>2138641
Superstition is a byproduct of imagination which is a function of an evolved brain. The religion meme exploits the byproduct. It's not genetic, it's memetic.

>>2138645
>implying similar commandments don't appear in other religions
>implying several of a roughly 1 billion strong group aren't sane helpful members of society.

also there is a difference between the kind of struggles it asks for and you claim it asks for. 2 kinds. the highest goal is rather an internal struggle to develop and strengthen the self rather than a struggle against others which is a lower struggle. Unfortunately politics, poor infrastructure , economics, poor role models, poor education and so on contribute to instability in the muslim world.

>>2138584
If you have the answers to every question, regardless of revelation from the Quran, or hard-earned knowledge - then that would ultimately be nihilistic, since your every move & action would be pre-determined and predictable.
This isn't realistic however, because for one, there are some questions that will never be answered - at least in this life.

The Quran will help you if you want it to help you.
I consider the revelations of the Quran to be miracusly true due to their nature of divine clarity & accuracy that is unrealistic at the period of time which it was written in. You must first consider the truth of the Quran, and when you accept it's verses as divine, only then can you honestly ask about it being beneficial to you - because at that point you will have to consider after-life.

After all, this life is objectively meaningless if there's nothing after death. Whatever you do is pointless, according to atheism. I find atheism & nihilism synonymous - they're both offer a negative outlook to life, not to mention an illogical one.

>>2138645

Oh please, those same books are also filled with peace and love and harmony etc. Anything they say is contradictory and meaningless so they can't be making anyone do anything other than be confused. The people who really want to do violence use it as a justification.

Do you really think that gay bashing fundamental Christianity got all of their hatred of gays from the phrase "Marriage is between a man and a woman?" Here too, innate prejudice is the cause and meaningless words are used as a justification.

>>2138692
lrn2exisitentialism

find your own meaning OP. if religion gets you sure. just give me the freedom to find my own path.

>>2138692

>pre-determined

You do realise that predestination is an article of muslim theology?

>>2138706
You have that freedom.
It is my duty as a Muslim to spread the word of Islam, however - through logical means & mutual debate.

"Say : O ye that reject Faith! I worship not that which ye worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship. And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship. To you be your Way, and to me mine. (The Noble Quran, 109:1-6)"

>>2138720
Pre-destination in the sense of everyone being judged, yes.

This life is however, entirely up to you.

If you're going to tout verses in the Koran as being evidence that it's writers had some knowledge about the universe that wouldn't be open to anyone in that era, then why not make it unequivocal? Why wasn't the inspired word more specific? It would stand out as a truly divine text if it gave specific reference to the diameter of the earth or the atomic weight of iron. Either of those pieces of data could have been woven into poetry that would lead modern day readers to recognize the divine nature of the book without giving the ancient muslims any knowledge that would have any impact.

That being said, if the muslims were favored by Allah, why not give them specific knowledge of say penicillin or steam power? Instead he let them wallow and pray with their dicks in the sand for a thousand years while neighbouring, christian nations decided it would be a good idea to whittle away at the influence of their holy men so that some real progress could be made by the actual thinkers.

I'd say if your god really liked you, he wouldn't have let everyone else pass you by while you were busy beating your women and chopping their clits off.

But that's just my opinion.

actually that verse is very vague and could be interpreted many different ways. Btw, life is not water based. it's carbon based.

>>2138745
i guess the answer to this would be that the true beliver would have faith no matter what. If this is indeed a test than god is making it more difficult by manipulating his universe to make rejecting him seem like a logical outcome. i.e manipulating scientific experiments and creating fossils to question our faith. I have heard this theory before. I don't like it very much because it turns god into some chtulu like figure rather than what i would like to imagine him as.

>>2138732
>"Say : O ye that reject Faith! I worship not that which ye worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship. And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship. To you be your Way, and to me mine. (The Noble Quran, 109:1-6)"

You forgot the part about apostasy. What does it say about apostates? Oh yeah! KILL EM!

>>2138771
Then don't tout verses as evidence if you're belief in him ultimately relies on faith.

Also, be sure to recognize that how you imagine him is indeed the only way he actually exists.

>>2138771
i'm not OP

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_ibn_M%C5%ABs%C4%81_al-Khw%C4%81rizm%C4%AB
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematics_in_medieval_Islam#Use_of_the_term_.22Islam.22
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_Sina

y'all faggots need to appreciate the debt modern science owes to Islamic scholars. i still think op is stupid though

>>2138745
Allah is righteous.
He does not favor anyone in this life.
Everyone is born equal, everyone can choose a path.

The other part of your post is just a mere observation of socio-economical scenarios that got out of hand in the Middle East. Nevertheless, you can point to Arabia & Iran in the case of inadequate human rights & living standard, which I agree. But you must also take a look at United Arab Emirates, which is an amazing place, and strong partner with the US. So your argument is a matter of subjective political correctness which doesn't disprove the divinity of the Quranic verses, nor does it explain how illiterate people 1500 years ago managed to write accurate scientific facts that have only been revealed in approx. a century ago.

>>2138692

>then that would ultimately be nihilistic, since your every move & action would be pre-determined and predictable.

On the contrary, just because I know how and why I am making my value claims does not preclude them from being meaningful. In fact, if I am endowed with a total, absolute, true knowledge then I would be able to make the very best value claims that could be made.

>revelation from the Quran, or hard-earned knowledge

I like how you make the distinction here between the two. Is there something underhanded or unsavory about gaining revelation from the Qur'an as opposed to hard-earned knowledge? Who am I cheating or what efforts am I defrauding by reading from this book? Is this a holy book at all or some cheap guide to illusory wisdom and satisfaction?

>life is objectively meaningless

Fortunately, life is objectively meaningless to you too! The only conclusions you can draw about the purpose for your life are subjective ones; it is YOUR life. Hurray for physics!

>>2138797
>UAE, amazing place

sure just remember to count out numerous human rights violations, extreme income inequality, and bigotry sure. bitch try malaysia or singapore. and even those two don't count since they are both fascist shitholes.

>>2138774
The Quran does not say that, I challenge you to prove it.
The death penalty is carried in a few Islamic regimes, but it has nothing to do with the Quran. I recommend a higher level of skepticism when being exposed to such claims. Don't be a blind sheep.

>>2138797
omg, they had no idea they were! it sounds pretty and epic like a sci fi novel so like scientology it took off. my theory

>>2138817
>human rights violations, extreme income inequality, and bigotry

Sounds a lot like USA doesn't it.
Guantanamo Bay, death penalty, huge economic gaps between classes, and bigotry. These facts don't take away the greatness of the US though, and I say the same for UAE.

>>2138797
>Allah is righteous.
For an imaginary despot.

>He does not favor anyone in this life.
Except muslim men.

>Everyone is born equal, everyone can choose a path.
But some are more equal than others, and women can't walk any path without a husband or male relative.

>disprove the divinity of the Quranic verses...
You obviously missed the memo re: burden of proof.

>take a look at United Arab Emirates, which is an amazing place..
Unless you're a homosexual. Then be prepared to be locked up in prison. Possibly for life.

Face it, anything islam touches turns to shit. You can point to socio-economics, foreign policy, blah blah blah, but the fact of the matter is, where there is islam there is suffering. UAE may be a bastion of modernity by comparison to Saudi Arabia or other arab nations, but that's not saying much when even in the UAE, a person can go to jail for fraternizing too openly with a member of the same sex. And don't even think for a moment that if Sharia were to become more powerful in the UAE a lot more misery would be felt.

>>2138848
>comparing the obscene human slavery and barbaric rascism to a civilized country like america!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_the_United_Arab_Emirates#Human_trafficking_and_prostitu
tion

>>2138869

Dude, you missed the most important point!

>illiterate people 1500 years ago managed to write

How are they writing if they are illiterate?

>>2138797

You make me giggle. The picture I have posted is a ~17,000 ya picture of a horse I saw driving JUST YESTERDAY! It had the same brown coat, dark mane and lighter underside. It's like the people 17,000 years ago KNEW that this horse would be born and that I would see it.

Divine horse.

>>2138745
>>2138812
>>2138797
>>2138745
>>2138641
>>2138634

OP here.
Y'all been trolled.
I'm a fucking atheist & huge fan of C. Hitchens.
/sci/ you're too easy dudes. I'm laughing at everyone who put an effort with their responses - too funny.

I'm a deterministic, dynamic moralist, anti-theist.
Y'all thought I believed some pedophile prophet to be my life-guide. You should have dismissed me on the spot, why did you keep responding?!

Let this be a lesson for future Christfags & other religious bigots posting in here - don't ever respond to these kind of threads. And I'm serious, I'm OP.

You all failed this test & you're all doomed for eternal, flaming trollish faggotry.

>>2138916

Read this >>2138915, don't ever respond to theists in /sci/

>>2138915
All the arguments still stand.
Hopefully you have learnt something.

>>2138915
>>2138939

Did you not see my post >>2138502 earlier?

Would I come to 4chan if I weren't looking for a retarded argument? There is no distinction between a troll and a religious zealot. You have been easy and pleasurable, just make sure you wipe my load off your face, people might get the idea that you were trying to impress me.

TAOISM STATED CLEARLY THAT THE UNIVERSE BEGAN FROM NOTHING
BIG BANG WAS KNOWN 2000+ YEARS AGO
WHERES YOUR GOD NOW FAGGOT?

>>2138964
I agree with most of 'em.
Especially with the evolutionary one which favored religious ones for non-religious ones, which is sadly true.
>>2138965
I sometimes enjoy stupidity too.
I needed a break from my Bio paper, hence started with "all living things made out of water."
Was writing the paper for hours when light bubble popped in my head: "fuck this, lemme troll /sci/"

>>2138974

You just got trolled.
Read up.

>>2138915
>implying i didn't know you were a troll and was just countering your troll so you were the one getting trolled and we both just wasted out life so now you have to wipe my load off your face.

feelsbadman.jpg

>>2138987
>implying I wasn't aware of that.

feelsgoodman.jpg :D

We're born to be wasted.

>>2139031
i'm jelly, you even looked up quranic quotes and stuff.

>>2139045
Yep, it wasn't that easy looking for "peaceful" Quranic verses. Google led me to violent ones.