/sci/ - Science & Math

They don't, just a meme.
Those that do usually have a fair reason, but are very childish and hate all engineers for petty reasons.

They just hate us for being delinquents who get laid.

inb4 gaysex

scientists w/jobs

There are only two things that are infinite: The universe and the percentage of engineers that are gay. And I'm not so sure about the former. -Albert Einstein

>>2133983
>Laid
>engineers

What?

>hate
>engineers

We don't hate them,.

They're gay, they've already have enough problems.

>>2133968
"While the universe appears to be based off uncertainities, the one thing I remain certain of is the faggotry of the engineer" - W. Heisenberg (uncertainty principle)

We get paid a ton of money for applying shit they discovered.

"You have a better chance of proving the continuum hypothesis, than of finding a straight engineer" - E. Noether

Suppose you're a physicist or mathematician. You seem some guy which was not talented enough in exact sciences to want to be a phycist or mathematician(other scientific areas get in here too, but I'll explain why I'm picking these 2) and yet think they are, they take simple or dumbed down physics and mathematics and, I'm not being an elitist prick here, I know people I like that are engineers, but despite being way below scientists they still manage to be arrogant and clueless to their lack of knowledge and their incompetence.
I'm not talking about all engineers, just the ones I've met(of course there are exceptions like guys who major engineering and some real field, except for civil engineering and related engineerings, those have no hope). Now for a short story that happenned quite some time ago:
Enginnering student friend comes and says
"Man, (Guy 1)'s and (Guy 2)'s major is so stupid, all they do is memorize stuff, they don't learn to think. Their major is useless, they haven't changed at all since they started."
I couldn't say anything because he's a great guy, but I felt about him the same way he felt about those guys, except he was in some very serious denial, in the following years after spending more time with him I noticed how right I was then, but I'd never be able to ram it into his thick enginner skull.
Also, engineers are gay.

>>2134114
>I'm not being an elitist prick here

To be fair you're probably average on /sci/.

>>2134114
>not talented enough for math or science
>entrance GPA for engineering is higher than math or science

Huh, how about that.

>>2134114

>not talented enough for math or science
Or just find the theory boring, and want to see useful applications.

>>2134114
>not talented enough in exact sciences to want to be a phycist or mathematician
Haha, no. Engineering is just more interesting.

>>2134129
>>2134124
>>2134142

>>2134142
>>2134129
>>2134124
>>2134121
Trolled much?

>>2134152

Didn't strike me as trolling, but that's probably why it worked.

>>2134152
But that's what a lot of "physicists" here think.

>>2133968
>so why does sci hate engineers?

/sci/ is homophobic.....DURRR

>>2134161
>Thats what most scientists think

fixed that for ya
Everyone laughs at engineers, just go to any university dumbshit

because PUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDI
PUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDI
PUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDI

I don't hate engineers any more than I hate court jesters.

They provide many a merry chuckle and are convenient scape goats when I fuck up something trivial

>>2134124
One should think so, because the majority everywhere isn't interested in pursuing a scientific career, instead they'd rather just get regular well paid job, hence more people want to be engineers and hence it's harder to get in.

>>2134129
Sure, that exists in mathematics and physics too, as a matter of fact I know a young mathematician that's not interested in pure maths despite being very good at it, hence he became an applied mathematician. I know phycists that are the same way, you don't have to be an engineer to work mainly with applications. Also, if all you know is the simple/dumbed down theory you are taught to apply in your job you're pretty much a trained monkey, that's the thing with engineering, they're not trainig you to really know or dominate any area, you're pretty much the same as a plumber or construction worker, but there really isn't anything wrong with that, society needs these kinds of jobs.

Jealousy no doubt. Pic related.

Also, puddi.

>>2134194
>all you know is the simple/dumbed down theory you are taught
Do people actually believe this? Because it's not true.

>>2134194
But when entrance is granted based on academic standing, that means engineering has a more talented body of students. At my school, nearly 90% of applications to the engineering faculty are rejected. Of those that get in, a quarter transfer out, and nearly half will drop or fail on grades.

It's a forced meme the newfags picked up.

/sci/ doesn't hate engineers. /sci/ has correctly recognized engineers as grade-A trollbait.

>>2134194

You appear to be discussing Civil/Mechanical/Environmental/ The Losers as one gestalt overarching 'Engineering' profession, and ignoring the Science heavy ones. I conclude from this that you are trollin'

>>2134212
> engineering has a more talented body of students

LMAO. I see you don't understand basic logic. Business major applications are usually very competitive too......but it is still shit teir. Enjoy being a wage slave!

We don't hate engineers. How could we hate people that are so fabulous!

>>2134216
The least science-heavy Engineering major is petroleum. Its also the best paying, so its the hardest to get into. Its the irony of the engineering majors; all the hardest courses are taken by the worst students, and the best ones have it easy.

Specializations at my school are chosen after the first year is complete based on academic standing. Petroleum's cutoff was 4.00, and since that wasn't enough it went through volunteer experience, work experience, and an interview. Chem and Mech were tied for the next highest with 3.4 cutoffs; no interview, no volunteer bullshit.

>>2134220
On the contrary. Entrance is based off academic standing. The more competitive entrance is to a program, the higher the academic standing of the students. Engineering typically has the highest entrance requirements of any major.

>>2134204
Meh, I'd liemk to see an engineer that really knows mathematics and physics. I mean, it's rare enough to find phycists that really know mathematics, a good deal suffers from the "I just need to learn to use it!" syndrome. I don't expect engineers to know stuff they don't need to, but don't be close minded thinking you are learning the full extent of things, you're being taught what you need to, it's a technical job, not a scientific one. Have you by any chance studied real analysis fully? Most likely not, as engineers don't need to, anyway, this is just an example, not exactly what I'm talking about but illustrates the point. You can't possibly think an engineer isn't greatly outdone in physics by physicists and in maths by mathematicians, it's just not their job to learn things that they will never need to, and what they need is less in those 2 areas than a physicicst would need to.


What I'm saying is, you're not hot shit because you're an engineer, you didn't learn as much physics or maths in your major as you think you did, you don't know as much about physics and math as you think you do, there isn't anything wrong with that because it's not your job to be a phycist or mathematician.
Also, not talking about you, guy I replied to above, just to engineers in general.

PS: Engineers are gay.

>>2134212
>implying it is hard to get a 4.0 if all you take is shit-teir classes (engineering)

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA.
If you set the bar really low (engineering, liberal arts, bussiness), it is easy to get a 4.0.

semi-science majors selling out for money, next level bad is double science and business major

>>2134267

woah /sci/ you teach me more every day. Here i was feeling down because i thought engineers were science students who had ascended beyond normal science students .

oh yeah and im pre med

>>2134267
The minimum requirements for my engineering degree automatically qualifies me for a minor in math. I know Comp-Sci does this as well. Does physics?

>>2134212

mit or caltech?

>>2134267
My engineering degree requires as much math as a phyics degree does.

>>2134267
Pretty much this, although it must be said that your mileage may vary between the various branches of engineering. I'm sure there are two or three competent engineers in CERN and ITER.

>>2134286
Yes,
A physicist knows more math then an engineer or comp-sci major. A math minor, or double major in math is automatic.

>>2134297
>two or three
>not THOUSANDS

Or did you mean on the research-goals side of things?

what do you guys think of computer scientists

>>2134296

>>2134316
Fine in my book

Well there's the classical type of engineer (mechanical, electrical, civil, probably others aswell) and they're okay because they design the phones and cars and other things like that that probably couldn't be done by any other profession

and then you have the shitty engineers (chem, bio, materials, whatever else) that go through school learning just the esscential sciences and some general engineering classes and then get this sense of entitlement as if they somehow deserve to have the title of engineer

I don't see why /sci/ despises engineers. Science degrees and Technical degrees are quite similar in different aspects. If you wanna bullshit someone go for those lazy guys on political sciences or philosophy, we should work together to make the world a better place.

Nuclear Engineers get no mention? Are they just maintenance monkeys too?

Forced meme caused by some guy starting threads saying engineers are gay over and over until it stuck.

>>2134335
Yes

>>2134307
http://www.calendar.ubc.ca/vancouver/index.cfm?tree=12,215,410,434
http://www.calendar.ubc.ca/vancouver/index.cfm?tree=12,195,272,39

Physics math credits:
>18
Engineering math credits:
>18

>my face when I'm an Engineer

>>2134349
Math isn't about quantity dumbshit, it is about quality. Engineering math is fucking shit tier, no matter how much you take. Enjoy your remidial algebra bro!

>>2134204
An overwhelming majority of /sci/ believes this. Nobody in the real world who actually knows anything about engineering does. Some physics/mathematics professors like to joke on engineers (I had a complex analysis professor who used to say "I feel like I'm talking to a room full of engineers" any time he asked something and nobody answered), but they don't actually believe engineers are stupid.

>>2134359
Wrong. You can't get that much money from selling your ass even if you lived in Washington D.C

>>2134370

>I take the same courses as Math majors
>whyamIfeedingthetroll.jpg

>>2134370

>>2134340
Yeah it was quite sudden, it made me lol'd a bit but they overused it until people started to take it seriously.

>>2134370
>obvious troll
>will get many replies

>>2134378
Engineers can't math

>>2134389
Math/engineering double major, what now?

I think people here are forgetting that we're not doing science to get rich, we're doing science because we have a fundamental desire to know more about our universe. And engineers don't have this (or if they do, they're in the wrong line of work).

Granted engineering programs have tougher requirements to get in (because more people are in it for the money), but don't in any way confuse admission requirements with the capacity to be a genius.

>>2134395
Still very little math you're doing.

>>2134396

>>2134399
But I'm a math major.

>>2134405
Don't sit on the fence, pick a side

>>2134396

I love learning about the Universe, and want to know more about it. I also want to bend it to my will...which makes it unfortunate there's no super-villainy major at my university.

>mfw I'm a computer engineer and none of you sciencefags know shit about computers
stop pretending you are masters of all knowledge

>>2134412
I picked both sides. Problem?

>>2134413

Thats really strange, I've never heard of a school that doesn't have a chem major

>>2134396
I'm studying engineering because I like to apply knowledge. Learning about the theory is cool and all, but I think it is much more satisfying to put it in action.

>>2134396
Enough with this "engineers are just in it for the money" bullshit. Some of us are going into academia because we enjoy doing research and being on the leading edge of technology.

>>2134396
And don't relate the desire to know about the universe with the capacity to be a genius either. For a large number of people, engineering is attractive in its own right, and it's studied for the desire to not simply understand, but invent, create - as an art as much as anything.

As I go to a public school, my professors salaries are public knowledge: $90k Canadian. But I live in an oil town, with an ongoing and deeply rooted labor shortage, especially in white-collar jobs. There isn't an oil company downtown (and there's more than a dozen) that wouldn't pay those guys four or five times that.

>>2134422

That was beautiful, you get an A+ man. I guess I'll just have to make do with Physics though. Maybe I can make some kind of portable tesla coil...

>>2134427
>Implying engineers do research

>>2134438
>implying they can't

>>2134442
They do "reseach" the same way a plumber or janitor does "research". It's not scientific dumbshit!

>>2134452
Yeah, a english major claims to do "research too"....LMAO

>>2134452
>implying scientific research is the only kind of research out there.

>>2134452
0/10

I plan to major in Software Engineering and do a minor in Physics. I'm creative as hell (building a rube goldberg machine for HS physics that opens a drink and pours a bowl of chips.) im straight and not beta as fuck. Stupid meme is stupid.

>>2134389
>the Finite Element Method was invented by an engineer

ITT high school kids talk about the world.
.
.
fucking retards
.
.
PUDDI PUDDI

>>2134466
A rube goldberg machine is the ironic pinnacle of poor engineering. I hope you realize this. You shouldn't brag about it.

>>2134438
>>2134438
>>2134438

implying scifags could build or design their way out of a paper fucking bag....

it was a great day when the physics profs came down to my active devices lab to ask how to bias a transistor correctly, something being taught to engineer 2nd year undergrads

pic related, it makes scifags cry when they try to use it.

>>2133968
Engineering PRIDE!

>>2134474

wow... these scientists sure have a lot of gay porn in their computers...

biology research: "I designed this new strain of bacteria to save our ozone"

chemical research: "i determined way to turn CO2 into sugar"

physics research: "i determined what makes up all forms of energy and matter"

engineering research: "i made the gasoline engine 2% more efficient WEARS MI NOBEL PRIZE BETCH?!?"

>>2134474
I'm sure a physicist may not automatically know how to fix a broken toilet either. WTF is your point? Shit-tier jobs are still shit teir! Why would a phyicist want to do grunt work like engineering?

>>2134472
how so? im designing something that runs smoothly every time and performs two very simple tasks. I get some practice, get to be creative, and part of the project is to work out/explain the physics behind each step.

>>2134480
Only engineers in here BRO! LEARN SOME FUCKING TOLERANCE!

To take a break from trolling for a second, I really don't understand why 'gay' is an insult. Because I really wish I didn't have to put up with female bullshit sometimes. And they bleed from their vagina, what the hell. Being straight sucks.

>>2134474
didn't a scientist design the first telescope?

>>2134485
Elegance is the single highest aesthetic in the engineering profession.

>>2134492
WELL Y DONT U JUST MAJOR SOME ENGINEERING

>>2134485
>work out/explain the physics

Nice homosexual troll bro

An physicist invented the nuclear bomb. An engineer invented Autotune. Who unleashed a greater horror on the world? Only time will tell.

>>2134503
>an physicist

>>2134483
So I say 200 guys came up with everything in your field. How does it feel to not be one of them?

>>2134492
>Engineer says Being straight sucks

And you wonder why they call you homo

You can go both ways!

Physics of engineering ftw

Are you guys serious? Who do you think builds rocket ships? Cars? The electric grid in the US? Is responsible for national highways systems? Air conditioning? The fucking doorknob? Certainly not physicists and mathematicians.

Finding novel uses for scientific principles is not simple. So what if physicists and mathematicians have stronger mental faculties for logic. That's what they're for. That is not what engineers are for. Engineers are for making the computer you're typing on, the clothes you're wearing, the light you're using to be able to see. The principles were thought of by physicists and mathematicians? So what. They were too stupid to actually think of a use for it. For example, Micheal Faraday (beloved experimental physicist) found the principle for air conditioning 100 years before it came about. Guess what kind of person it took to take advantage of it?

But you know what? It wasn't always that way. Scientists from the 17th to 19th century had to employ several principles of design, and had to have some ingenuity to create their experiments. A few great examples being the Cavendish experiment, and James Joule's apparatus for measuring the amount of energy it takes to heat water. In addition though, there another important remark; physicists, and mathematicians were not distinguished from each other in those times. So coupled with what I've said above, engineers, mathematicians, physicists, all stem from the same "natural philosopher" of that era. This is easily seen in vector calculus and linear algebra, where many definitions and procedures were made with the motivation for use in physics (Cross product? Dot product? Vectors in general?).

This is not to totally discredit physicists and mathematicians for engineering acheivements though. They do contribute, albeit by luck most of the time. The way GPS was first used is a perfect example (found by Astrophysicists I believe).

a large amount the engineers i see are pakies i'd say 40% (to be fair i am biased to southern ontario univeristies)

it is for that reason, i will never respect an engineer

>>2134518
And this, friends, was the ultimate goal of the thread. Cudos. He mad.

>>2134521

Southern ontario here, thats purely coincidental, there are just brown people everywhere here.

>>2134518
>Finding novel uses for scientific principles is not simple

LMAO, I'm sure alot of trivial shit seem hard to dumbshit like you (engineers).

>>2134483
>physics research: "i theorized (pulled out of my ass) what makes up all forms of energy and matter"
Good work.
Also,
>biological engineering research
>chemical engineering research
Fixed those errors for you.

a large amount the engineers i see are homosexual i'd say 85% (to be fair i am biased to southern ontario univeristies)

it is for that reason, i will never respect an engineer

>>2134509

there may only be 200 huge breakthroughs like that, but any scientist in grad school is doing research

and the same can be said for engineering, someone invents something, 1000 engineers make minor improvments off it

Can't make shit that works -> sad
/thread

>>2134497
chips sliding down a zipline, hitting a lever that does several things one of which turns on an ipod in a dock, but after that i have to figure out a way to open the can.

>>2134501
not trollin. i have to solve momentum, friction, some vectors for a ball down a ramp, mechanical advantage, and acceleration due to gravity for most parts.

>>2134534
Just saying, I could build something with what I'm learning that is solely my own creative effort. Most math/physics research is mindlessly derivative. Or is actually engineering research in disguise.

>>2134529

biological engineering research: i read this paper on this bacteria some scientist created that will work twice as fast, if we implement this we'll save money

chemical engineering research: if we switch to copper pipes we can cool down the liquid as it is transfered and we'll save lots of money

where's the originality? If they do the job of a research biologist or research chemist then why call them an engineer?

>>2134560

cause if you start calling engineers doing scientist jobs scientists, then people might think that scientists are gay

>>2134543
So you are boasting that you get to do very very basic high school physics??? WTF?

brotip: to piss of a science major, call them an engineer

>>2134570
i know its very basic physics but still physics and i already said im in a HIGH SCHOOL physics class. I will minor in Physics because Software Engineering appeals more to me.
I just love the idea of building something and watching all the pieces come together as well as knowing WHY it happens.

>>2134543
>chips sliding down a zipline, hitting a lever that does several things one of which turns on an ipod in a dock, but after that i have to figure out a way to open the can.

Are you trying to tell me this in some way even resembles elegance?

brotip: to piss of a janitor, call them an engineer

>>2134592
It is a smooth transition from obects falling to levers. Levers everywhere. I need a good song to play on the ipod though.

>>2134607
No. Not even close. You don't understand the word, clearly. A quartz watch is a hundred times more elegant than a $10,000 mechanical watch ever will be. Say what you like about other aesthetics, desirability, or if you want to call it 'cool'. Elegant it is not.

>>2134604
That's not even funny. Don't you ever compare my janitorial duties to that of an engineer.

PUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDI
PUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDI
PUDDIPUDDIPUDDI

>>2134589
>knowing WHY it happens

Unless you are a physicist (or possibly mathematican) you don't know why shit happens. All you are doing is memorizing dumb downed physics principles.

Example, how the fuck do you know mometum is conserved for any system? How the fuck do you know Newtons laws work? You fucking don't, you just assume they are fucking true becuase physicts told you they work for your shitty simple systems. You will never learn "why" they work for your simple systems, nor how to derive shit like that from first principles. You also wont learn "when" they don't work.

All engineers ever use is very simple dumbed down physics. And they just assume it as true, like the good little followers they are.

Scientists discover the natural. Scientists include theoreticians, who mainly develop new models to explain existing data and predict new results, and experimentalists, who mainly test models by making measurements--though in practice the division between these activities is not clear-cut, and many scientists perform both tasks.

Engineers use their imagination and analytical skills to invent, design, and build things that matter. they apply the principles of science and mathematics to develop economical solutions to technical problems. their work is the link between scientific discoveries and the commercial applications that meet societal and consumer needs.

Now shut up.

I say we stop calling engineers gay. Gay people might be getting pissed because of being associated with engineers.

I say we stop calling engineers gay. If I was gay I'd be offended by being associated with engineers.

>>2134620
Then there can be no "elegant" rube goldberg machines in that context. I thing of elegance as smooth and graceful. my machine "dances" in a way. I have run into a few kinks but they arent very difficult problems

>>2134654
All physics is based on experimentation. You can't "prove" Newton's laws.

>>2134670
Perhaps you missed these two posts where that was first explained to you >>2134497 >>2134472. Rube Goldberg machines are not elegant. Ever. There is no such thing. Its a crash course in poor design practice. You will some day be ashamed for bragging, I can only hope.

>>2134654
why is WHY im going to minor in Physics. Goddamn. i thought you people would have a higher reading comprehension than this.

>>2134661
>Skills in engineering?

wtfamireading.you'reafaggot.edu

There is no such thing as "engineering skills". Engineering is a trade dumbshit, anyone can be taught that shit. No special skills required.

No one ever says, "WOW look at the engineering skill"....LMAO. If they did it would probably refer to some gay seck activity.

>>2134683
>You can't "prove" Newton's laws.

LMAO......sure you can bro. We do that shit all the time. That is a typical junior level physics problem. You use symettry, calculus of variations, and Noethers Theorem. Its a pretty simple proof.

>>2134685
im not boasting. merely stating. Just as well, I find elegance in complicity as well as simplicity. Things with many parts moving in unison and it doesnt fuck up? I find that beautiful and want to know more. i find elegance in beauty.
Each to his own i suppose

>>2134693
There is no such thing as "physics skills". Physics is a trade dumbshit, anyone can be taught that shit. No special skills required.

No one ever says, "WOW look at the physics skill"....LMAO. If they did it would probably refer to some gay seck activity.

>>2134693
What are you fucking stupid? How about applying the theories of scientists to an actual mechanical or electrical system? What would you call those skills?

>>2134693
not following this thread but,

it's called "engineer's intuition" and it's how new methods and products are invented

saying someone has "engineering skills" is like saying they're clever.

cock.

>>2134709
>I find elegance in complicity as well as simplicity

That's only because you have no idea what you're doing.

>>2134714
>>2134717

Hey, guize! I'm an engineer too! I learn how to apply the work of others! Application of others work! Copying shit is a skill right?
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

would ya'll say that a fastfood worker has skills too? They have to memorize how to make the McRib right? SO MUCH SKILL!

>>2134707
I don't think you know the definition of "proof."

>>2134734
You don't know what you're talking about. Engineering takes as much skill as physics no matter how you define skill.

>>2133997
looks like someone failed out of, or was rejected from, engineering school

>>2134743

Scientists can't science without the help of an engineer.

It's like children getting the adults to use the big people scissors and glue because they're too retarded to do it by themselves.

scifags are so cute =3

>>2134729
>and want to know more.
so i can know what im doing. im willing to learn, just give me the tools.

Or your just going to keep arguing my lack of knowledge (which i admit to) and keep coming off as pretentious as well as not seeing that not all words carry the same meaning for every person.

>>2134755

SCI IS HOMOPHOBIC!

>so why does sci hate engineers?

/sci/ believes in traditional marriage

>>2133968
>so why does sci hate engineers?

/sci/ is tired of getting cat calls from gay men
FUCKING SICK OF IT!

>>2134774
sour grapes, my friend
enjoy your time working at Burger King

>>2134757
You're just so repulsively content in being wrong. It's unreal. Elegance has a specific meaning in this context. Simple is requisite. This is not debatable. There are no multiple meanings.

>>2133968
What do you call a staight engineer?
.
.
.

.
.
.
.
.
.

.
.
.
.
.
.

.

.
.
.
.

.
.
.
.
.

..
.

.
.
.

.
.

.
.

.

.
.

.

.
.

.
.

.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
BULLSHIT!

>>2134777
Engineers at Burger King?

Makes sense!

>>2134784
LULZ

This entire thread is retarded. The distinctions are not as clear-cut as people seem to think they are. There are engineers who do research. There are scientists who work for drug companies. 90% of the posts are variations on "Engineers are gay/stupid, scientist = automatic genius, etc." Great discussions going on. Really!

Stay classy, /sci/.

Math major here. I hate engineers because they were the cancer of my calc classes. They bitched about everything, especially if we had some proofs.
I have one good engineering friend who is a decent person. She's pre-med biomedical engineering and actually genuinely works hard and appreciates other areas of knowledge.
Then were a FEW engineers in my linear algebra class (that was all proof-based) that appreciated math.
Can't say quite the same for the rest of those faggots, though.

Oh yeah, most engineers are cocky in an annoying way, like if they ace a diff eq test. Like come the fuck on.

I'm good at Math and decent at Physics, but I'm going to be an Engineer.

I'm not a prodigy or genius with Math, even though I'm better at it than all my classmates, this I know. I also have a much better grasp of Physics then them too. However, while I'm good at Math and Physics, I like the applied work much more than the theory. Looking at something, and knowing "I built that, that is something I made." is something I really like. So, I'm going to become an Engineer, because that's what I like to fucking do.

Also, I'm a huge faggot and I love dicks. Engineer are fucking gay dude.

>>2133968

http://www.uq.edu.au/study/plan_display.html?acad_plan=ELECTX2001

http://www.uq.edu.au/study/plan_display.html?acad_plan=PHYSCX2030

These are the study plans for electrical engineering and physics undergrads respectively from the University of Queensland, considered a world class university. Four pure maths courses are required for electrical engineering, and only one pure math course for physics.

Engineers might not be as good at science as scientists are. But engineers are definitely better at science than scientists are at engineering. When was the last time you designed a computer or a fucking airbus plane?

>>2134809
>This entire thread is retarded. The distinctions are not as clear-cut as people seem to think they are. There are engineers who do research. There are scientists who work for drug companies.
GTFO. This is the Internet. No intelligence allowed.

Alright, serious question guize. Say there is a female engineer... now, is she also gay?

>>2134845
>female
>engineer
NOPE

PUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDI
PUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDI
PUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDIPUDDI

>>2134683

You can prove Newton's laws fool. Law #3 can be derived from #2

>>2134862
But then you're assuming Newton's Second Law is true, which you can't do unless you can prove it.

>>2134845
>>2134845

>>2134868
>implying it is female.

>>2134867
Newtons second law is proven through symmetry and the least action principle. It is a direct consequence of translational invarience.

GTFO and read a book dumbshit.

Unless you are a mathematician you don't know why shit happens. All you are doing is memorizing dumb downed mathematics principles.

Example, how the fuck do you know the real number system is usable? How the fuck do you know summing up an infinite amount of infinitesimal pieces works? You fucking don't, you just assume it is fucking true because mathematicians told you they work for your shitty simple systems. You will never learn "why" they work for your simple systems, nor how to derive shit like that from first principles. You also wont learn "when" they don't work.

All physicists ever use is very simple dumbed down math. And they just assume it as true, like the good little followers they are.

>mfw you will never make as much as me

>>2134882
Exactly, thats why most physicst double major in math.

You are finally getting it!

>>2134867
Newton redefined the force. The second law is tautological.

>>2134876
And how do you prove the principle of least action?

>>2134888
>mfw the thing you value most in life is money

>>2134899
Calculus of variations

>>2134903
Nope. You're still making assumptions about how gravity works that you can't prove.

>>2134888
>mfw my job doesn't require me to guzzle cum

>>2134909
WTF are you talking about?

The calculus of variations isn't about gravity dumbshit. Nor is Newtonian Mechanics actually about gravity. You can define generic potentials and momenta, dumbshit!

Seriously, I know your an engineer, but that doens't mean you have to be a complete retard!

>>2134903
You're saying the principle of least action can be reduced to Newton's Second Law when applied to a single point, rather than a region of space. This does not mean the principle has been proven. It means you've went in a logical circle.

>>2134926
You still can't prove any of Newton's laws without making unprovable assumptions.

>>2134931

Thats not what I said dumbshit. It is obsvious you have no fucking Idea what The pinciple of least action is or how to fucking use it. Study up and stop talking out of your ASS!

>>2134942
>You still can't prove any of Newton's laws without making unprovable assumptions.


>mfw engineer actually believe that

>>2134899
I looked it up. So apparently F=ma is part of how the Lagrangian is defined. As such using the principal of least action to "prove" F=ma is meaningless since the principle of least action is derived using F=ma.

>>2134977
That's because it's true, dipshit.

>>2134931
>>2134942
Do you have any more jokes?
Maybe about how difficult you think engineering is?

>>2134991
Right now I'm laughing at the physicist who thinks he understands math and logic.

>>2134979
>principle of least action is derived using F=ma

NO, it is not! WTF am I reading?
Seriously, Where are you getting such Bullshit from? You trolling?

>>2134979
No one can be this stupid? Not even an engineer? Right?

>>2135011
Look up how the lagrangian is derived.

>>2134995
As you should, a physicst who claims to know math and logic without a math degree is lying to himself. However most physicst have math degrees, so I'm not sure who you are laughing at?

>>2135037
I'm laughing at you. You obviously don't understand much math if you believe that Newton's laws can be formally proven.

>>2135037
>try to pwn someone for being dumb

>make grammatical error

>>2135028
I am starting to feel real bad for making fun of you. It is obvious you are trying to usnderstand, but just dont know what you are talking about.

Let me try to explain the basic to you.
The Lagragian formalism, Hamiltion formalism and Newtonian formalisn, can all be derived from each other.

The Least action principle can be used to derive all three without referencing each other. The least action princple is more fundemenal as it doent assume for any physical theory to be true. It is purely a mathematical constuct based off the calculus of variations. It is used extensivly in physics to derive physical laws, physical constants, physical relationships, conserved quantities, etc.

Most of everything we know actually can be derived from the calculus of variations and symmetry argumets alone. Maxwells equations, Newtons Laws, Lagragian Mech, Hamiltonian Mech, Special and General Relativity, Quantum Mechanics, Statistical Mechanics, Quantum Field Theory, Quantum Electrodynamics, Quantum Chromdynamics (just about everything).

Do you understand now? How old are you?

>>2135045
Are 12 years old? 15?

>>2133968
ENOUGH FIGHTING!

lets get back to talking about ENGINEERING!
ENGINEERING PRIDE UP IN HERE!

>>2135045
yeah bro!
It's magic!

PRIDE!

>>2135089
>The least action princple is more fundemenal as it doent assume for any physical theory to be true.
That's correct.

>It is used extensivly in physics to derive physical laws, physical constants, physical relationships, conserved quantities, etc.
Yes, but in order to derive those physical laws, other assumptions have to be made that can't be mathematically proven.

>>2135037
>most physicist

>>2135111
The other assumptions are symmetry arugments and units.....Nothing more. Mathematics is fundementally axiomatic dumbshit. I dont understand what you are trying to argue?

>>2135111
>made that can't be mathematically proven

You never heard of Group Theory?

Simple, Physicists understand more than Engineers but Physicists need Engineers for anything practical to get done. So naturally they hate each other.

>>2135089
Oh?! Honestly I just assumed by "least action" you were referring to a specific equation that involved the Lagrangain. You're going all meta on us.

>>2135111

Postulate:
Hatred towards gays is a result of the bigotry found in the bible.
If Engineers are gay as /sci/entists propose and if /sci/entists hate gays as they do on /sci/.
QED All scientists are Christians.
Christ: 1
Science: 0

>>2135131
That you can't derive physical equations solely from mathematical axioms, that they require other physical assumptions. How exactly would you go about proving that gravity exists, for example?

>>2135141
>You're going all meta on us

Actually no, I'm going "physics on you".
All that Least action shit is taught as part of the standard physics curriculum. It is established as a proven scientific theory, and unites all branches of physics. It is really quite intresting to learn about, and has provided some on the most accurate theories known to man.

The engineer is to an eye as the scientist is to his brain.
One looks and one sees.

>>2135174
...But its not provable. Its an assertion. Calculus of variations isn't used to prove the principle, it's used to exploit the principle.

>>2135201
Umm... No. It's more like the opposite of that. I know what you were going for there. Scientist=brain, lol smart. Scientists gather raw unfiltered data(eyes), but engineers are the ones who interpret that information and give it practical application(brain). Work on your analogies, bud.

>>2135157
>they require other physical assumptions

Yes, they require symmetry arguments and units (if need be). I already mentioned this.
Not even math can be proven from math? You do realize that right? You know that everything is esentially based of ZFC set theory (maybe with the axiom of choice). But that shit cannot be mathematically proven, or even proven consistiant within itself.

Physics is on the same par with math, in that it tires to axiomize itself to as many irreducables as possible. Currently, those axioms are symmetery, and units, nothing more. All we need to do is specify a symmetery of a system, and the units, and we are able to derive the physics. This is very very very far from the huge number of assumptions engineers make.

>>2134759

>>2135215
Newton's laws can't be proven mathematically without making even more assumptions, though, and those assumptions cannot be proven.

>>2135210
You are saying that the "math", "calculus of varaitions" is not provable?

LMAO
Do you understand what mathematics is?

>>2135230
He isn't saying it's not provable. He's saying it can't be used to prove physical laws without making other assumptions.

>>2135226
So you are just gonna keep posting the same sentance over and over? HA HA HA

I am trying to explain it to you, but you seem to have this innate disregard for known physics. You enjoy just making up nonsense and believing in it? Religious much?

It is obvious my efforts are wasted trying to teach you anything, I'll leave and just let the trolls post more homosexual pics. Enjoy being ignorant faggot!

>>2135240
Prove Newton's laws mathematically and I'll believe you.

>>2135089
>>2135089
>>2135089
>>2135089
>>2135089
>>2135089
>>2135089
>>2135089
>>2135089
>>2135089
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


someone has been obsessively reading and linking through wikipedia too much, lol.
Variational calculus =/= calculus of variations.
variational calculus is a method of extending concepts of simple calculus of fields to FUNCTIONALS (functions of functions) which appear in functional analysis, which is the field of mathematics that concerns PDEs and field theories.

Hey! This thread is still going!
You people should consider moving to another channel called /b/.
Yes, both scifags and engifags.

>>2135234
And I already said the only assmption you need are symmetery and units....DURRRRRR. Its not my fucking fault that Anon is too fucking retarded to understand.

Everything needs assumptions though, even pure mathematics. The goal of science or math isnt to eliminate assumptions (as was proven impossible), it is to axomize your systems to as few assumtpions as possible. Look up ZFC dumsbhit!

>>2135215
>>2135215
>>2135215
>>2135215
>>2135089
>>2135089
>>2135089


anyone with the internet and a classical physics text knows that the impetus for 100% of mathematics until about 1920 has been PHYSICS.


"the calculus of variations" (which is an ill defined name of a very very specific subset of the field known as "functional analysis") describes a set of tools/theories that arose around SOLVING PHYSICS PROBLEMS

>>2135261
>The goal of science or math isnt to eliminate assumptions (as was proven impossible), it is to axomize your systems to as few assumtpions as possible.
Ah, there we go. And proving Newton's laws requires more than just mathematical assumptions, so they can not be proven mathematically. Do we agree?

>>2135249
They are the same shit dumbfuck!

Show me some reputable source that says other wise of GTFO!

FYI: Wolfram tells me they are the same shit as well.

http://mathworld.wolfram.com/VariationalCalculus.html

>>2135262

Somebody needs a history lesson.

>>2135270
>so they can not be proven mathematically

Not even math can be proven "mathematically", as mathematics (like all science) is an minimalist axiomatic system. Nothing can actually ever be proven dumbshit. Do you know nothing of science or math?

>Implying there are scientists in /sci/
>Implying scientists can do what an engineer can do (that's not to say they are better or worse, just different)

>>2135307
When certain basic assumptions are made, the rest of mathematics follows. Additional assumptions have to be made about the physical nature of the universe in order to prove any phyical laws.

>>2135270
>Doesn't understand why everything is called a "theory"

I guess its better then you went into engineering. You wouldn't have lasted long in science.

>>2135315
>implying I didn't go into science
You were just being retarded. Yes, that is why they're called theories. They can't be proven.

>>2135314
Yes, you have to assume symmetery and units!
The math will the lead to eveything else.
This has already be mentioned by Anon though.

>>2135322
Nothing can be proven.
Enjoy living in the matrix buddy

>>2135327

You can prove nothing can be proven.

Wait a minute...

>>2135323
You have to assume more than symmetry and units. You have to assume mathematical relationships between those units.

>>2135327
>Nothing can be proven.

Can you prove that statement true?

>>2135322
>Anon tries to say how great engineering is, end up just stating shit we already knew.

I guess engineering is shit tier, they can't even come up with valid arguments

>>2135336
Nope, the relationships can be encoded in the symmetry.

>>2133968
Only one absolute fact exists in the universe.

ENGINEERS ARE STUPID FAGGOTS!

\thread

>>2133968
well done.

>>2135351
How?

My university offers a Bachelor of Science majoring in Engineering Systems, so I pose the question to you /sci/, is the degree in science or engineering?

>>2135374
By units the Anon obviously ment the relationship between the units, and not the actually units themselves, as units themselves are not important (see natural units). Not sure how you place the units in the symmetries though, haven't gotten that far in physics yet.

You there Anon?

>>2134466
Wow. You sure have a lot of gay porn in your collection. A lottttt of gay porn. I mean, a LOTTTTT of gay porn. You really enjoy this.

Engineering Physicist/Mathematician here.

You are all idiots. Go to bed.

>>2135574

>>2135570
Don't you have an engineering folder?
What else do you expect engineers to masturbate to?

I majored in structural engineering, but luckily a friend landed me a job at one of the Valley movie studios doing facilities management. Now I work in production scheduling and spend my days with hot wannabe actress girls and talented creative people.

Reading this thread has made me grateful that I did not actually work as an engineer surrounded by nerds, with no social skills.

My physics major friend works in the toilet industry working with fake shit and doing numerical fluids. My mechanical engineer friend designs shipping containers with ProE. I would rather work at Target that do their jobs. Have fun being nerds.

>>2135610
>Have fun being nerds

Mathematicians invent new ways of solving mathematical problems. They have contributed to the total knowledge of mankind.
Physicists discover new properties of matter and the universe. They have contributed to the total knowledge of mankind.
Engineers put already existing components together and get most of the credit. They have not contributed new knowledge.

Engineers are like vultures following the lions around. When the lions have caught their prey and eaten their fill, the vultures come in and take the leftovers. They can't discover new knowledge themselves, so they feed on the leftovers of the scientists.

Silly science people's constanty trying to stich together sugary desserts. Plenty of people on this planet earn 40k a year and don't complain. Science nerds, I ask you, why sew jelly?

>>2135692

>Engineers put already existing components together and get most of the credit. They have not contributed new knowledge.

If you can design and build a boeing 747 with nothing but Newton's Principia Mathematica as a scientific reference I will concede your point.

So much BUTTHURT detected in this sector. This is like the conflict between Presbyterians and Anglicans but in a SCIENCE EDITION.

>>2135726
sure...as soon as you complete building the same plane by yourself...

>>2135803
hell...i'll even toss in all the tools and materials you will need AND most of the electronics would be assembled for you if it makes it easier for you. I want to be fair here...

>>2133968
ENGINEERING PRIDE!

>>2135823
>implying you can use your dildo collection to make a plane

>>2135838
no. i make a second one after he builds the first one.
then he loses.
get your story straight yo

it's about the pay, just the pay.

>>2135871
what do you mean?

That's a very vague flag you are waving over there...

this is like a discussion I overheard from some highschoolers sitting next to me on a train trip.

one of them was claiming Gasoline needs oxygen to burn and the other said it was actually the oxygen that needs gasoline vapors to burn.

And even that makes more sense than this bullshit...

>>2135692
Engineers put thealready existing components together, making it possible for Physicists and mathematicians to expand mankind's knowledge yet further.

What's red, orange, yellow, green, blue indigo and purple all over..

A GAY ENGINEER!

Right guys, non-gay engineer (in few months) here.
I think you don't have a problem with engineers, but with engineers saying they know everything about physics and maths.
I will help to build the houses people live in, coordinate the people so that you can live their without expecting the roof to fall each time you close the door. Checking if everything is in order.
So I wont say I know something in maths or physics (yes I've a Bsc in both but that doesn't mean anything). But that's not why I'm here, I'm here to create areas where people can live.
It might be seen as 'simple' when compare to pure maths, but you have much sensible results. I wont say you dont have results in maths or physics, but once you have finally found something, well, it might have no direct consequences on our world. And if it has some, it might take some decades before being really able to use it.

omg butthurt everywhere, uou're all a bunch of faggots derp

every one knows that mathematics is the only true form of knowledge. Physics is just applied mathematics and chemistry is just applied physics

engineering is the application of parts of all of them

>>2135993

Logician here. Take your shit-tier statistics somewhere else.

/sci/ doesn't like people who can actually *do* things

>>2135959
> non-gay engineer (in few months)
You'll stop being gay in a few months? I'm sorry, but I've got it in writing now.

You faggot-ass engineer

Engineering—where the semi-skilled laborers execute the vision of those who think and dream. Hello Oompa-Loompas of science.

Engineer here.

I love the smell of big salary in the morning. Smells like... victory!

>>2134483
Do you have any idea how much energy, co2 and climate change an overall 2% performance increase of ICE's would save?

hello guys this is pretty useful for getting rid of the PUDDI annoyance and will not effect any other flash stuff
http://userscripts.org/scripts/show/91669

ITT: undergrads and high schoolers arguing about which major is the best lol

Thankfully scientists/engineers in the real world aren't this retarded. I'd have gone on a killing rampage by now if they were.

HEALTH SCIENTISTS REPORT IN FUCK YUEAH

At least we're not engi-queers amirite

ITT: Bitches don't know about the MacMaster Engineering Faculty.

Seriously, we're to the mostly female Nursing Faculty as /tg/ is to /x/....

Signal processing and digital circuits seemed interesting to me so I chose electrical engineering as a major. Physics is interesting too, but what can I do with that? I don't want to be stuck teaching high school physics.

>>2136189
But I love PUDDI. For starters, it has vastly increased the quality of discussion in /b/, and also I like watching it jiggle.

I really don't care for what /sci/ thinks of engineers, and this thread is a behemoth of trolling, >>2133968 well played sir. And for my engineering bros out there:

Stop defending engineering if your this easy to troll, or to the people who are just fans of engineering.

Putting that aside, seriously folks if your job is that bad in science and you have to cool off to make simplistic and yet forceful jokes about engineers why bother? This thread I already feel sorry for half of /sci/ here already I'll come back when there a new force meme.