/sci/ - Science & Math

Nuke them, look for oil.

>NASA sent an under-ice probe to Europa, which returned images of the creatures pictured.
>GOOD HEAVENS HOLY SHI--
>Premise:
>mfw

>>2127872
This

we attempt to find out if their females are sexy.

judging by the pictures, I doubt it.

>>2127882

Someone, somewhere, wants to fuck it.

>>2127876
my thoughts exacty

nigga u crazy

Is that a Crysis alien photoshopped over a seabed?

>>2127876
>>2127889

I didn't mean to mislead anyone. I suppose I did word it poorly. Can we discuss the topic anyway?

getting back to earth is easy, what you do is take your very buoyant space ship and you put it to the center of the moon, and then you let it do it's buoyant thing and shoot up out into space and back to earth. (ice surface is blowup).

somewhat troll physics, but it might work, I don't wanna do the math.

>>NASA
"National Aeronautics and Space Administration"
>>Astronauts
Sent under water. Kinda the opposite of what NASA does..

>>2128035

NOAA and WHOI would be responsible for designing the habitat and vehicle. NASA would be responsible for getting it there.

Send people? No way, not for a while yet. More robots first, preferably one with a way of communicating back. A screen, perhaps, or even a simple maniple tool for writing/carving things.

Exchanging knowledge seems like a good idea, but we have to be extremely careful. We could end up pissing them off, or giving them some idea that starts a massive genocidal civil war, or we could set off any of a number of seriously bad situations for them. Hell, WE could end up having any of those things happen to us, as well.

Start slow, with a little scientific knowledge represented visually: basic anatomy, sociology, astronomy, and geography even maybe. Just a few simple, basic concepts of what we are, where we come from, what our world looks etc. and vice versa. From there, we should try making ourselves a mutually understandable language, and start cultural exchange. Keep things like very advanced science (genetics, our modern theory of the atom, things we discovered in the last 100 years or so), politics, religion, and anything to do with modern weaponry as far away from this exchange with them as possible.

These are just a few ideas I've had. There are actually people out there who have thought about this long and hard as part of their actual jobs. I'm sure they'd have a better idea of what we should do during First Contact.

>>2128035
Actually a part of astronaut training takes place under water. It's also an important part of testing the spacesuits. Just sayin'.

>>2127866
can i have sauce on this, please?

>>2128089
bump

>>2128118

It's from Stephen Hawking's TV series on Discovery.

http://dsc.discovery.com/tv/stephen-hawking/

>>2128078
With properly calibrated buoyancy units, it also approximates 0g fairly closely.

>>2128151
First point of order would have to be introductions, exchange of basic concepts, then cultural exchange to determine whether their culture is different enough that certain technologies may be dangerous for either of us and to determine safe havens of 'conversation' that offend neither party. Only then may tech exchange follow.

Since our deepwater friends are probably not space-capable, the military men may be overkill, but it never hurts to gauge the possible military might of an alien party, even if they have no way of getting at us.

This is off the top of my head, so comments welcome! :)

(Bloody "Field too long" error...)

>>2127866
Whoah. I don't even know where to start.

For one, the recently appointed UN Ambassador to Aliens would finally have something to do :D

Mission:
I'd send a team (linguist, diplomat, two or more techs, one or more xenobiologists (it's more glorious than astrobiologist), possibly a military man too).
Their habitat would probably be built as part of their ship: A large ring-like structure rotated to produce artificial 'gravity', with a self-contained ecosystem necessary for the long trip, powered by a nuclear reactor and an ion or fusion drive (I'm not exactly up to date on the laser tech required for my fusion drive). They could probably use a shuttle to land on the surface if necessary, and deploy a second probe equipped with a large LCD, waterproof speakers/hydrophones and manipulators to communicate with the aliens on as many channels as possible.
The probe would probably be nuclear-powered, or a separate installation would be needed on the surface to recharge the probe, which would be impractical.
Once the probe is deployed, the first task is to establish a common protocol (most likely pictographic or otherwise visual), hence the need for capable linguists. It's not necessary to decipher the alien language yet, just to establish a method of communication that's easy, and covers basic concepts like self, origin, arithmetics, basic surroundings. From there on, a more complex language may be built up, adding specialized knowledge as needed.

Awesome post OP. Too bad /sci/ is a shithole.

>>2128178

Doesn't have to be. If you put effort into making interesting posts, worthwhile discussion happens. :]

>(most likely pictographic or otherwise visual),
da fuck would beings under sheets of us have the need of eyes?

>>2128196
This thread is case in point!

>>2128133
i didn't mean the picture, i meant the information. is there an article i can read or something?

>>2128228

>>i didn't mean the picture, i meant the information. is there an article i can read or something?

N...no? It's fabricated. Not real. A hypothetical premise for discussion.

>>2128228
You must be new here if you don't realize we would have been discussing a probe to Europa on nearly every thread were it true.

>>2128201
Um, duh...?

In that case, we need something like a braille display. How about the newly patented MS invention, whose pixels are the size of an LCD pixel, and can be raised or lowered by UV light. This way we could have a dual-purpose display: VDU if the fuckers have visual-spectrum eyes, raised-lowered pictographs if they don't.

Reading the Mad Scientist's description that they conveyed mathematic principles iconographically, I assumed they could see what they were carving...

>>2128234
this is why i wanted a source :3
>>2128231
oh my bad. missed the "premise"

Mission to Europa.

Objective : Establish communication with intelligent alien species.

Ship : Nuclear powered long - range transport. Plasma drives provide thrust and some protection from radiation. Ship is designed to fill side rockets with Liquid Oxygen and hydrogen harvested from surface ice after arrival.

Crew : Linguists, Social Scientists, Animal research Experts, Engineers, Physicists, and Chemists. Married couples preferred as they provide additional mental stability and support on long-range isolated journeys.

The plan : After a year in space, the team will land on Europa. Using heat from the ship's nuclear power plant, they will melt a tunnel into the Ice-covered ocean. They will then lower a communication probe and / or submarine. Over the next ~year, while the earth is coming back into position, the crew will attempt to communicate with the undersea aliens. Water will be split into hydrogen and oxygen fuel during this time to provide the boost needed to escape europa's gravitational well. After a year on the surface, the crew will head back to earth, leaving behind a communication relay and supplies necessary for a future, permanent base.

Total duration : ~3 years.

>>2128240

>>Reading the Mad Scientist's description that they conveyed mathematic principles iconographically, I assumed they could see what they were carving...

Even the deepest sea organisms have eyes, because many are bioluminescent.

Let's say they have a sufficiently advanced understanding of chemistry to produce bioluminescent ink, by mixing the chemicals with a culture that keeps the reaction going for a while.

We cannot assume they communicate iconographically, it could just as easily be the case that they realize we won't speak their language. We send pictorial shit into space also, remember the plaque on Voyager 1?

>>2128274
I only see one flaw right away: the comm relay will have obscene relativistic lag, and with two planets in between, it might not even be reachable very often unless relays are deployed in interplanetary space or out of the Sol plane, which just raises its own problems.

>>2128288
Generally, we can't assume that, yes, but in this case, this bit of info was a given. So for the sake of the scenario, let's stick with it.

>>2128294
True, hence why the crew stays for a year, and a permanent base is planned. The relay is mostly there for limited communication before the next mission arrives, and for the new mission to use once they arrive.

Mad Scientist said that there had to be a return mechanism, so I assumed this was to be a temporary, not permanent, mission when writing.

no

no, no, no, no, NO

leave them the fuck alone

somehow, in some way, you'll fuck it up and cause an extinction or something. or you'll enjoy yourself abducting and disecting them.

if you love something, leave it alone, that is all

You know most UFO sightings are saucers, cylinders and spheres.

All shapes commonly used for submarines because they handle intense pressure well. But maybe these are shaped that way to keep pressure in, not out.

>>2128332
>submarines
<span class="math">\delta P[/spoiler]=100 atm
>space
<span class="math">\delta P[/spoiler]=1 atm
nope.jpg

>>2128325
True enough. Though I neglected to explicitly include it, my ship could probably return to Earth as well, if it uses H2 in the fusion drive (my concept is fueled by lithium-deuterid). Slower, but still possible, I think.
Also, since the ship uses a self-contained ecosystem to replenish oxygen and recycle water, it could potentially sustain a mission for as long as needed, but I'd cap it at 5 years in retrospect, which should be enough to build a permanently manned outpost on the surface.

>>2128346

Think about what you just said. What shape are the canisters used by astronauts to store air under intense pressure? I've seen cylinders and spheres. A squashed sphere/saucer should work too. Already, you've got many atmospheres of pressure sustained in metal vessels exposed to vacuum. It can, of course, be done.

Bump for more discussion!

Well, we're sending a nuclear powered, ion engine driven probe (the Jupiter Icy Moons Orbiter) soon that will scan the oceans of Europa straight through the ice. And other moons of Jupiter. It will tell us how thick the ice is and give us topographical maps of the sea floor so we can plan a second mission with a lander/under-ice rover.

>>2128390
you misunderstood. for large differences in pressure, you need special containers like the ones you are describing. But we are talking about transporting humans. Which only need 1 atm to survive. The vacuum of space is 0 atm (approximately). The difference is only 1 atm. This means that the craft could be any shape you want.

>>2128564

>Well, we're sending a nuclear powered, ion engine driven probe

Don't get your hopes up. When it comes to exploring these New Oceans, there are always people who will go "hurr durr the Department of Defense doens't have enough with 700 billion a year, proceed to hack NASA's head. First NASA, then the oceanfags, then the geofags."

Goddammit, I can't wait until nano becomes feasible, then the Open Space Movement could actually do SOMETHING about this bullshit.

>>2128568

>>you misunderstood. for large differences in pressure, you need special containers like the ones you are describing. But we are talking about transporting humans. Which only need 1 atm to survive. The vacuum of space is 0 atm (approximately). The difference is only 1 atm. This means that the craft could be any shape you want.

You misunderstood. I wasn't talking about human vessels. I was speculating about why most UFO sightings are of spherical, saucer shaped or cylindrical craft; those are all shapes associated with pressure hulls.

If an alien species evolved under Europa's ice it would be accustomed to intense water pressure, and it's spacecraft would need to sustain a high pressure water environment on board. Hence the hull shapes.

ALL THESE WORLDS ARE YOURS EXCEPT EUROPA. ATTEMPT NO LANDINGS THERE.

>>2128580
Ah. I see.
You're postulating that most aliens are aquatic in high pressure environments. Well, at least you're not wrong in the way I thought you were initially....

>>2128607

No, not most. But the distances are too great for alien visitors to be from other star systems. If they were from our own solar system, though....

They could rest their ships on the floor of our ocean and filter it into something they can breathe. What a hospital environment for beings from an ocean planet! Imagine if the Apollo Astronauts had the luxury of Earthlike pressure on the moon. That's what it would be like for Europan aliens visiting our sea.

>>2128607

No, not most. But the distances are too great for alien visitors to be from other star systems. If they were from our own solar system, though....

They could rest their ships on the floor of our ocean and filter it into something they can breathe. What a hospitable environment for beings from an ocean planet! Imagine if the Apollo Astronauts had the luxury of Earthlike pressure on the moon. That's what it would be like for Europan aliens visiting our sea.

>>2128640
What kind of thrust would you need to get a spaceship FULL of water, and not just any amount of water, but enough water that the pressure is similar to the bottom of the ocean into orbit? Not to mention that the ship itself would weigh an insane amount due to needing to be so heavily reinforced to sustain the ridiculous pressure differential.

tl;dr UFO's are bogus for more reasons than just the vastness of space.

>>2128640
or humans visiting Jupiter's upper atmosphere?

>>2128667

>>What kind of thrust would you need to get a spaceship FULL of water, and not just any amount of water, but enough water that the pressure is similar to the bottom of the ocean into orbit? Not to mention that the ship itself would weigh an insane amount due to needing to be so heavily reinforced to sustain the ridiculous pressure differential.

That's all true, except you haven't factored in the greatly reduced gravity of Europa. Everything would weight considerably less.

>>2128682
and hense have less pressure, you where saying?

>>2128696
>>hense
>>where

I don't think you know what you're talking about, or how to talk.

>>2128705
guess you cannot into gravity, oh well. no loss on my part

We're drifting off topic here. Back to the task posed by the Mad Scientist: design a first contact mission to the described Europan aliens!

flash some lights at them that represent self-describing binary language (i dont remember how this works but it has been developed).

since we wont be able to connect to the bot we send i guess we just develop a cleverbot chat type thing and send that instead.

then they decide to nuke us.

>>2128807
Have you read the criteria?
"It must be manned, there must be someplace for astronauts to live and work above, inside or below the ice, and some return mechanism. Use existing technologies. And specify exactly what we'll do when we get there."
>must be manned

>>2128274
>>2128151
>>2128154

Read these posts and try again!

>>2128840
the criteria is why almost no one gives a shit, the premise is asinine. no one in their right mind would try to man a mission of that length without intermediary robotic ones.

>>2128909

>>the premise is asinine.

We've discovered intelligent alien life. Naturally, we'll want to meet them face to face. Pic related.

>>2128909

>>almost no one gives a shit

>>100+ replies

[bump]

>>2128970
>>hurp 100+ replies
>>only half
>>most of them thought OP was making an announcement not a thought experiment.

>>2129095

>>Tricked into counting posts

>>2128947
You lie.

we want to capture and carve one up to see how it works.
People are crude and barbaric, we have no need to be face to face with any specimen.

I would hope our own planetary strife and political structures will make it impossible to ever contact these creatures in any way.

>>2128587
USE THEM TOGETHER. USE THEM IN PEACE.

Just kidding, the movie sucked dick.

mission (doesn't involve humans at all, bad idea, srsly):

send a huge drillship equipped with about 100 man-sized probes (yes, it'd be expensive, but the entire world would be backing this financially). the probes would spread throughout the oceans and traveling to the vents where it would collect samples, and show a movie that basically describes the location of the creatures (e.g. the movie goes from the sea floor upwards towards the ice, through the ice, turns to look down on the planet, then zooms out, zooms out further until it shows the planet orbiting saturn, then zooms out further to show the solar system and then zooms in on earth, shows human civilizations and people, then shows a message from humans), and then after the movie another touch screen pops up, with the previous screen showing basic language/mathematical principles, to gauge the intelligence/other characteristics of the creatures.

the probes all send a signal to the location where they were all released, which sends the signals along a wire up to just below the surface where there is a processor that transmits the signal back to earth, as well as saving everything (the probes record audio/video in 360 degrees/hi-definition, possibly 3D for shits/giggles), and also serves as a future (FUCKING FUTURE) dwelling for any human who chooses to visit.

(continued)

>>2129215
also, at the hub where all the probes were released is a sort of "command center," a place that shines a dim light to attract the creatures and does basically the same things as the probes but on a grander scale, and basically surveys the area as far as it can see. it'd have a bunch of robotic arms that could extend pretty damn far to collect samples and shit.

that'd be the majority of the mission for at least 15 years, and eventually if we determine the aliens to be friendly, we would send a team of maybe 12 people, and they'd live in the structure just under the surface, making occasional trips to the command center and, if they test the waters with a dummy or two and it's determined to be safe, 2 of them will be able to take submarines under. that'd basically be it.

>>2129215
>>2129241

Seems like a solid plan. Why just under the ice? Why not on top, or deeper? Can you describe the human habitat, and the design of the minisub? Given how much it will cost to send it that far, how can we get the most bang for our buck, scientifically, from both?

>>2129268
just under the ice (i forgot to mention the antenna above ice) is actually more like .5k m under the ice for purposes of protection from radiation/possible impacts (no atmosphere to protect from them).

the hub would be probably octagonal, with a flat bottom, positioned on the surface of the ice (aka at the top of the sea, where it meets the ice). it'd be connected to the top by a really long tube, probably about 5m across, with a shuttle going back and forth, and it releases into the hollow structure (each side would probably be 20m and it'd probably be about 5m tall). there would be an airlock-kinda system to get into the water, and the probes would go through that (and possibly the humans).

the human habitat would probably be basically like an underground bunker, with ridiculously thick walls and small rooms and everything, but it'd have massive food storages, it'd plant a shitload of photovoltaic cells on the surface, and it'd have a ton of computers and broadcasting equipment, along with some rooms for analyzing samples and whatnot. the minisub would probably be the basic submarine design, i imagine the pressure under that sea would be incredible, so much so that it'd be impossible to dive. and we can get the most bang for our buck simply by staying there for a long time, and possibly including a thing to send some of the life back to earth, maybe even some cloning stations inside the shelter. there's a lot of potential.

if the moon has anything remotly useful to us then we wont. it'll make it harder to eat them later if we know that they think.

>>2129334

Why not melt a shaft down into the ice mantle, then melt out an ice cavern? You could coat the interior with layer after layer of insulating sealant, adding a new layer as soon as the old one had dried. Soon it'd be able to hold in an atmosphere of pressure and you could heat the air enough to be relatively comfortable without melting the surrounding ice.

>>2129385
well i thought that was just kinda implied, lol