/sci/ - Science & Math

I wish I had healthcare.

It's a commodity and as such should be purchased by people if they can afford it. There shouldn't be the government handing out "free" things to people.

It's a good idea. Diseases are contagious, and sick people are bad for the economy. Everyone wins when treatment is available for everyone.

>>2050592
its your right, if you're an american citizen, to get anything you want.

Hell, let's include the mexicans too

>>2050600
>having the ability to not die if you suffer an injury
>commodity

I'm not sure you know what that word means.

That it doesn't belong in /sci/

>>2050600
You're absolutely right, let's shut down our socialist libraries, fire departments, police forces, and public school systems while we're at it.

>>2050615
You forgot that we should privatize the water supply

But the economy is unjust. Only reason you faggots have health care is because your parents put you in that position, you're actually just a worthless piece of shit benefiting from the fucked up world we live in.

Health care for all.

>>2050609

In the US, we always had that. If you almost died in a car wreck, they'd treat and stabilize you whether you had insurance or not. They've been required by law for decades to make sure you don't die.

If you don't have the means to pay the bill they give you on the way out, that's your own fucking problem and you need to figure out a way to pay it.

In summary, I don't think you've ever heard about the Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act, enjoy your talking points.

>>2050615

Damn right we should

I cant think of one thing that the public sector can do better than the private sector, excellent idea anon.

>>2050615
>implying we can't have privatized versions of those same services.

>mfw /sci/ is filled with socialist faggots

>>2050625
What happens if you can't pay the bills?

>>2050631

We already have a privatised police force. It's called the mafia.

I'd rather not see the free market alternative to the other listed services kthnx.

>>2050626
>I cant think of one thing that the public sector can do better than the private sector

Well, according to comparative statistics around the world concerning health outcomes, running healthcare would appear to be one of those things.

>>2050642

>mafia

1/10

babys first troll.jpg

>>2050626
Fire department, police, postal service....

Also.
If pulic healthcare is so bad why is my Canadian penis likely to live 6 years longer than americans'

>>2050635

Figure something out! Get an education, get a better job, FFS, INVENT SOMETHING. Do whatever it takes to pay it off, that's what you should be doing as a citizen in this country anyway, not crying to the government to help your pathetic ass because you're too scared to try.

>>2050648

really?

Sauce please

>>2050653
>implying you won't die in line waiting for the doctor.

>>2050625
How is it my problem that I can't pay a $50,000 hospital bill? I didn't want to get into an accident in the first place.

Right wingers should all be mercilessly killed. They understand that if they were in a different financial situation, then they wouldn't be a right winger. And that's so morally fucked up.

>>2050648
The government can't afford to do everything though. The best they can do is offer health insurance which will just get abused by hospitals, doctors, and pharmaceutical companies who are only in it for the profit. Even if the government wanted to give free health care to all citizens it wouldn't be able to. It would just end up giving free money to everyone else in the health care industry.

>>2050625
>insinuating that losing everything you've ever worked for when you can't pay your medical bills is better than dieing

>>2050671

Tough shit, life's not fair. Most parents teach their children this before first grade.

Now quit crying and figure out how to fix it.

>>2050673
You are aware that essentially every industrialized nation on the planet except the United States has some form of universal health coverage, correct?

>>2050653

All that could be done better with a privatized system. Just look at fed-ex, ups, etc. compared to usps. And that penis your talking about has nothing to do with having health care. Americans have one of the poorest diet's and fitness in the world. All applies to everyone else that has better eating and exercise habits.

>>2050681

Then kill yourself.

>click on /sci/
>see libtard meme
>double check to see if I really am on /sci/
>bow my head in shame
/sci/, I am disappoint.

Also sage.

You pay taxes.

It goes towards stuff.

You're actually *not* being sent your neighbour's bills.

Ausfag here. We have both private and public options. Public has longer waiting lists and isn't silver-service by any stretch of the imagination, but it's there if you need it. Private is there if you want it.

>>2050692
You forgot your sage, Sir Bumps-a-lot.

I JUST INHERITED 10 MILLION DOLLARS!!!

I FUCKING HATE BUMS

>>2050660
MFW He thinks he can win an argument with a Canadian by lying about the quality of Canadian healthcare.

Have never had to wait in an emergency room for more than an hour, and it has only been that long because broken bones aren't immediately life threatening. I've got scheduled check-ups twice a year for a condition I was born with, and I can go to any walk in clinic I want whenever I want.

>>2050656
Typical spoiled child response.

>Get an education,
You don't have the money to do that, especially not with your medical bills now.

>get a better job,
One of the most difficult things to actually accomplish in a country with a dieing economy... and it wasn't easy before then either nigger.

Baiters gonna bait

>>2050704

Never said "education" meant "college" faggot. Also if it's so hard to find a job then make a job yourself.

Also, "ITS TOO HARD" isn't a valid response.
Suck it. The fuck. Up.

Expand Medicaid to emergency rooms, health situations and infectious diseases.[chip also applied]

Make company's making so much a year to provide and single payer health insurance system to full time employees, 1-2% rate on money made from job to insurance.

only thing that will be left is junkies,fat-asses, and niggers, all that caused the welfare type systems to be turned into shit in the first place.

>>2050693
Rational.

>>2050688 Just look at fed-ex, ups, etc. compared to usps.

Move to the middle of Arizona and ask someone other than usps to mail some shit.
>> Sorry sir, we don't cover that area on account of it's not profitable.

Fucking optimize things already.

Christ.

The current system has entrenched corporations who are getting billions of dollars from their position in deciding how health care dollars are spent.

Ever wondered why we are spending so much more money on health care, yet getting such shitty results? What do we have that France doesn't? Goddamn systematic parasites.

Here's how we start - pharmacy system. The solution? Centralized mail-order pharmacies owned by the US government. No, you do not get name brand drugs from them when there is a generic alternative. You get a generic that is chemically identical (or close enough) and you goddamn like it. Fill every single Rx that the state pays for through this thing, and give point-of-care places enough medical supplies for five days per patient for the urgent stuff (for the mail-order work to go through).

Yes, it will drive pharmacies out of business. No, that's not a bad thing, because we're making everything more efficient so we can afford to pay the losers the savings (think about it - if your job herping derps at 50 k$/year is no longer necessary, then whoever used to employ you can just give you 50 k$/year and you no longer have herp derps, and your employer is just as well off as before.)

Not to mention the fact that the government can now set better policies - say, people with medications from chronic conditions now get six month supplies of their medication, which is shown to improve compliance, which makes people need less healthcare, which means even more efficiency gains.

>>2050693
>>2050693
and i'd rather my taxes went towards the greater good than fighting in a zionist war

>>2050720

forgot to add that private company's providing health insurance be given tax-writes off on yearly earning reports to encourage spending, etc.

>>2050702
Should come to America, last time any of my relatives went to the ER they took in about 1 patient every 45 minutes with at least 10 people sitting there... some severely bleeding.

Time before that my sister went in with a 4 inch gash in her leg, in the dead of night with maybe 2 people going in before her. She was there over 8 hours.

>>2050731
>drive pharmacies out of business.

But, but, my campaign contributions

>>2050729

privatize usps[already been theorized many times],in turn encourages others to expand to area by competition.

this is what people call a win-win scenario, lrn2 economics and business please before you make a ass of yourself even more.

>>2050735
>>2050731
If you mandate that corporations pay for healthcare they are just going to take that into account in the hiring process.

John is slightly more skilled than Tom, but John will require you to spend 5,000/year to treat his type1 diabetes. Who do you hire?

Also, lose your job, lose access to medicine, not fucking cool.

>>2050713
Come back when you actually enter the workforce kid.

>>2050759 privatize usps[already been theorized many times],in turn encourages others to expand to area by competition.

[citation needed faggot]

It turns out that it's cheaper for everyone to have universal health care. So arguments like "if you use it you should pay more for it" are bullshit.

Consider Canada vs. USA. By all rights, the USA should have a way cheaper system because of higher population density, better climate, and a slight technological advantage. Instead, the Canadian system costs half as much per capita, and for most conditions is better. Plus it doesn't drive poor people to bankruptcy.

http://www.escapefromamerica.com/2010/06/escape-from-america-the-grim-truth/

>>2050768

You want me cite you info on a theory proposed by me? You are either a troll or a obdurate imbecile, I hope this is what you mean.

http://money.cnn.com/2009/08/03/news/companies/usps_postal_service_privatize.fortune/

http://www.cato.org/pubs/policy_report/pr-so-po.html

http://articles.ocregister.com/2010-07-09/opinion/24627736_1_usps-s-usps-postal-regulatory-commissio
n
Still want to pretend at knowledge idiot?

>>2050764

>attacking the person
>not refuting the central argument

cool debating skill, bro. I'll take your lack of a rebuttal as admittance that I'm right. If you feel like trying again, I'd be more than happy to engage you. :)

>>2050601
>sick people are bad for the economy

Thats not exactly right. Having sick people is often an inefficient alternative to having healthy people. If the net value of someone's work is more valuable than the cost of keeping them healthy, its worthwhile to keep them healthy. However, if you make people buy their own healthcare, they can only afford to put their income towards their healthcare and cannot amortize expensive one-time costs over their expected lifetime. The most economically efficient option is not taken, someone suffers, and that is rather sad.

Granted, health insurance can cover some of these economically inefficient options. But, the current health insurance system is flawed, since the entrenched positions of certain corporations entitles them to multi-billion dollar profits.

>>2050759

I have an undergraduate degree in Economics. You're clearly a PhD given the depth of your analysis, but humour a bright eyed youngster such as myself.

Suppose we have a shithole. And we have a firm in that shithole, operating at a loss. Under conditions of a free market, do we expect:
1) That firm to leave
2) That firm to continue business
3) New firms enter the market to "compete" for the negative "profits"

>>2050729
You're right, the government spends millions of dollars on frivolous obsolete services such as mailing pointless shit to the middle of the desert. Your point? Sounds like another case of pointless waste leeching America into the squalor of the rest of the world.

>>2050632
And?

>>2050764

>attacking the person
>not refuting the central argument

cool debating skill, bro. I'll take your lack of a rebuttal as admittance that I'm right. If you feel like trying again, I'd be more than happy to engage you. :)

By the way, I own a property management corporation that I started originally making minimum wage at a different company and doing tech support after I saved enough money to become certified living in an apartment with roommates that I found and eventually left both the company and the apartment after I'd raised enough money after spending a grand total of little over $1000 to gain the legal right to sell private shares of stock in the company that gave me enough initial capital to start the business, hire the people I needed, and has given me steady income that while is by no means extravagant, gives me enough to live on my own with very good health care and live a very comfortable life, all from starting working a part time, minimum wage job and the willingness to take a lot of risk.

Now go ahead and call me a liar. Because that's the only argument you have left.

>>2050762
You sure you linked to the right post? I'm saying nothing about making corporations pay for their employees health care.

What I'm saying is that the current state-run healthcare payment system should vertically integrate to remove more of its dollars from private hands that earn obscene profits. Specifically, why should the government have to negotiate with corporations that don't make medicines when they can simply buy from the corporations that do make medicines and distribute it themselves? Why should my tax dollars go to the pockets of corporations that do nothing but hook up government dollars with the medicines the government wants to supply to people?

>>2050791
There wasn't exactly a central point for him to refute though... you just kinda went 'no U' and he responded in kind.

I mean you can't honestly believe you can get 'an education' for free after high school, at least not in the US you can't.

And 'make one' could be taken too many ways, I assume you meant start a business but we've already established that we're talking about people with no money and crushing financial debt.

>Suppose we have a shithole

haha, most places already do.

1) That firm to leave
2) That firm to continue business
3) New firms enter the market to "compete" for the negative "profits"
>4)All of the above[*]

If you want me to go into macroeconomics, and some old school friedman-nomics I can you want a reason for my choice, although the most obvious and reasonable choice would be 2).

>>2050834

That appears to contradict your initial claim of
>,in turn encourages others to expand to area by competition.

No one's going to expand outside the urban centres, nor build roads there, nor provide internet coverage.

You can argue over whether or not it's just, but don't tell me the free market will magically invest in unprofitable ventures just because they're deregulated.

>>2050817
For such an economically-minded person, you sure are making an economically weak argument.

The economic benefit of having someone alive and healthy isn't granted only to that person. The healthy individual pays taxes, is engaged in productive labor, and buys things.

There's a Pareto improvement for the entire society if any amount of money, up to the entire value summed over all stakeholders, is paid towards making someone healthy. This amount of money is much less than a person can afford.

And if you want to go down the ad hominem route: you want poor people to suffer just because they are poor.

ITT: Freedom-killing socialists, big government endorsers, and libertarians that don't realize they're fighting a losing war.

>>2050713
>Also if it's so hard to find a job then make a job yourself.
Not always possible.
lrn2zero-sum-games.

>>2050789
Try reading the articles and checking their sources before trying to prove a point with them.

>>http://money.cnn.com/2009/08/03/news/companies/usps_postal_service_privatize.fortune/
Only suggests privatisation should happen because usps is losing money, not that it will magically make other companies get mail to people in bumblefuck.

>>http://www.cato.org/pubs/policy_report/pr-so-po.html
Oh LOL, the CATO institute. These are the same guys who think global warming isn't real on account of it doesn't fit their right-libertarian ideology.

>>http://articles.ocregister.com/2010-07-09/opinion/24627736_1_usps-s-usps-postal-regulatory-c
ommissio
n
Same as first article.

Conservative: above average family kids that speak big words without even knowing how it is to make your own life, to pay your own bills before getting at 18yo.

Now liberals are unrealistic at some points, like being all equal etc, but things like Health should be free for all.
Its the MOST basic of all, without it you cant work or live or anything.

Your mommy and daddy still spoon feed you and take your shit out while you browse /sci/?

Fucktards lrn2life.

>>2050857
Don't forget the conservatards.

Pic related.

This is what libertarians actually think.

>>2050695
I know... double fuck. :(

>>2050883
Who socialists actually praise.

>>2050857
Actually taking the phrase 'big government' a little differently single payer would streamline the over all process of going to the hospital.

How socialism works.

>>2050894
>implying they didn't do the world a favor by reducing overpopulation.

I'd discuss religion a thousand times before I'd discuss politics. You fuckers are just jerking each other off in this thread.

>>2050894
>>2050899
>>2050908

That's some nice same-fagging. I'm sure you have convinced many of your superior position on the matter of socialized versus privatized healthcare.

>>2050894

I did the maths once. To substantiate that death toll the average woman in the soviet union would needed to have popped 7 babies in her life.

The upper bound on Stalin's toll is 20 million, with 10 million being a lot more likely. There were about 2 million direct deaths (executions, deaths in labour camps) and the rest come from famine, relocations and other causes which could, with some cause, be ruled partially or wholly unintentional.

Why does that matter? Because 20 million is a lot less than 62 million. 20 million means you read Robert Conquest and accepted his number without thinking, 62 million means you pulled it out of your ass.

Universal healthcare (including dental) should be there provided by the government. However, there should be private alternatives. Those that pay for private alternatives should be able to pay slightly less tax so rather than contributing 100% to healthcare they would pay 40% of what they would normally.
This is how I would like it to work in this current system. However, in my perfect system, all healthcare, plastic surgery etc etc is completely free.

>>2050913
But I'm wearing sandpaper gloves...

>>2050913
Thinks religion and politics are different categories.

>>2050908
I guess your daddy taught you politics.

>>2050894

Are people these days even aware of the fact that fascism is the complete opposite of socialism? Or is that image just intentionally off / making fun of the fuckhead idiot who made it?

>>2050916
Better than being a freedom-killing big government cock-sucking weasel.

>>2050918
>plastic surgery
>free
>mfw

>>2050894
two first are communists and the third is fascist.

Your politically wise dad knows all the answers doesnt he?

>>2050852

>No one's going to expand outside the urban centres, nor build roads there, nor provide internet coverage

I doubt people will live their either.....

Why do you assume the free market wont, just take Hong Kong for example for businesses, just because the obviously answer is no doesn't mean a company won't take a risk at all. Although I said the obvious answer is to not move at all[I also said all of the above], you are assuming that the company is at a negative margin in their profits. If that the case company's thrive and fail daily and a result of the free market, usps is already in debt and is poor compared to other private postal company's. Of-course nothing is going to be perfect, it does not matter what type of economic system you have is just what works the best for the situation. Don;t be ignorant and think a company wont try and thrive in a area just because its deregulated, most likely that would be even more of a intensive to move a businesses to their.

>>2050918
where is dentalcare provided for free in the world?
sry, ignorantfag here

>>2050931
Dude, are you serious?

>>2050934
Not for beauty, more for fixing up fuck-ups.
For instance, when I was 4 I fell in the bath and fucked up my nose. Had fucked up carteliage and got it fixed when I turned 18. I've heard that in some countries such as America this isn't available unless you have really good insurance.

So socialists, you really like the idea of a government dictating your every step? Can't you guys think for yourselves or do you need to be automated?

>>2050943

Hong Kong? Hong Kong is a fucking city state. It is the opposite of the middle of fucking Arizona.

>>2050955
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_socialism
>>2050945
Australia has a very basic version of it. However shit like braces and so on you still have to pay a fuckton for.

>>2050952
As far as I'm concerned you are part of the plague that is killing-off every little bit of liberty we have left. Without your kind we wouldn't be oppressed by a government regime. We would be free and that means no flag.

>>2050962
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-capitalism
better solution.

>>2050969

>>2050969
Dude, you are kind of insane.

>>2050955
>my face when he believes he thinks for himself but he's using the same tired old propaganda

>>2050868

provided links, and points to why people theorized it, why do you act like what I gave was not what you asked?

if you were not so iconoclastic about the situation and had the ability to interpret sentences you would realize usps SHOULD be PRIVATIZED because it IS LOSING MONEY, that was the whole purpose of my point, im sorry I've made you upset because you have failed to grasp that idea.

>>2050955
Well, where I live, the government is made up of people... so... people dictate their own lives. I guess if you live under a republic or other dictatorial-type system....

>>2050981
Well thats what happens when a freedom-loving person is oppressed from birth by authority. I just want to live freely and you faggots wont let me have that.

>>2050975
I would prefer a government that collectively takes care of it's people while making little laws restricting what people can do with a resource-based economy to some circlejerk objectivist paradise for the rich.

>>2050894
Hitler was capitalism ree ree

the usps doesn't exist to make money, it exists to deliver mail.

>>2050988
I wish to know specifically what you would want. As in, how you would live, what activities you would like to do in your version of a perfect society.

>>2050956

>Hong Kong

I hope you re-check yourself and refer to their economics and business regulations before you respond to me again.

>>2050991
>implying the government takes care of its people rather than its own interests.

>>2050632
LOL WUT?
FUCK THE POOR, THE RICH, THE HUNGRY, THE FAT, AND ALL, I MUST SEE MY DREAMS MADE REAL AND NOTHING MORE

>>2051006
you realize that he thinks capitalism if freedom right...

I hate all of you. You're all stupid. Fuck your political views, thank god you won't get off your fat asses to exercise that they be implemented. Also socialism is the way to go.

>>2051018
Go live in North Korea dumb motherfucker. Every Socialist country has been a failure. And no, Sweden is not Socialist.

>>2051018

>Also socialism is the way to go

yet it has failed everywhere and everytime it has been tried

please gtfo

>>2051023
Just a thought but it might be the bat shit insane dictator's fault rather than the economic system.

>>2051026
I guess you've never seen a firetruck.

>>2050955
Ok, let private corporations dictated your life.
lrn2logic

>>2051023
>North Korea
>Socialist
Does Juche ring a bell?
>>2051026
Russian communism transformed it from an agrarian phase nation into a fully industrialized military superpower in about 50 years. Yugoslavia in the 1980's has socialist self-management (government didn't own companies) that was working quite well for them until of course Serbia etc etc.

>>2051026
It has never been tried mate.
lrn2fucking politics and history.

Just dictators who used communism and socialism as excuse to rape countries.

Go back and watch Fox News ignorant brat

>>2051042
I'm against corporatism too. lrn2logic + lrn2politics.

>>2051026

>europe does not exist

>>2051041

>implying private organization cannot do everything better

go look and see response times for police, fire and some medical or hell even massive debt they pile up for their inefficiency that cause for cities and tax payers.

>>2051049
>against corporatism
>for capitalism
>implying they don't net the same end result

Fuck this. I don't want to live on this planet anymore. Every single fucking political system we have to date is garbage and quite frankly I don't see it ever improving. The second I can get off this rock I'm outta here. Real freedom exists as far away from this authoritative species as possible. Enjoy living by your government's rules civilizedfags, whatever oppressive system it is - socialism, capitalism, fascism faggotryism, etc.

>>2051049
lrn2contraditing yourself.

get off /sci/, now.

>It has never been tried mate

please, please don't insinuate that.

>Go back and watch Fox News ignorant brat

Sure, as soon as you go back to sucking rachel maddows cock

>>2051071
What about http://www.marshallbrain.com/manna5.htm

>>2051065
They don't. Corporatism was a result of a capitalistic system turning socialist. Look at American corporate and political history. Corporations started gaining a foot hold over the country when socialist ideals were increasingly more and more adopted.

>>2051071
It'll just follow you out there.

>>2051075
Can't do math proofs.
Doesn't know what a contradiction is.

>>2051083
>>2051083
>>2051083
oc

>>2051094
u 12 or mad?
how about both?

>>2051091
Not if I'm the only one there. If they follow me there, I'll move. And move again if they follow there. Staying nomadic in space is better than allowing myself to be oppressed by bullshit entity known as a government.

>>2051106
U mad or have trisomy 21?
I'd say both.

>>2051083
you sir, are either funny, or retarded.
likely the later

>>2051083
Seems more likely that socialist ideals took over while corporations were getting a foothold.

>>2050671

>How is it my problem that I can't pay a $50,000 hospital bill? I didn't want to get into an accident in the first place.

Got to this point in the thread and raged. It's your problem because hospital bills go up to cover the lost revenue which means YOUR insurance rates increase. On top of that yet another middleman is introduced, the collections agencies.

Enjoy paying more for health care because
>hurp durp I don't wanna pay more for people to have healthcare

>>2051026
>>2051023
WOW, WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT. ARE YOU ACTUALLY CONFUSING SOCIALISM WITH COMMUNISM, YOU FAT AMERICAN FUCK. GO BE STUPID SOMEWHERE ELSE.

>>2051037
Socialism as a system has a tendency to turn into shit. That is why it has always happened.

Nice classic turned into comic http://mises.org/books/TRTS/

What is so sad to me is that concept of socialism is so appealing to people in the first glances. Only by honestly exploring it and exploring history you'll find out how it would be horrible. Most people are too lazy to do it and many are incapable. It is like some of the more complex troll physics pictures - it won't work but seems to to many people.

I grew up in a Socialist country and saw forces at work, that turned good intentions into shit. I don't wish this to other people. I have also studied the economic forces in countries like Sweden - it is often cited as socialist, but it really is not. It generated it's wealth when it was far from socialist and some socialist aspects, they institute, are already causing trouble.

Here is an excellent article by a Swedish guy Johan Norberg. It offers excellent analysis about Socialism and Sweden in general. It was written at 2006 and time has shown his predictions to be right. http://www.johannorberg.net/?page=articles&articleid=151

>>2050588
Great

\thread

>>2051117
Could be, But I don't see those socialist policies doing much to stop the, more or less, corporate takeover of everything.

>>2050588
>universal / single payer healthcare

American's opinion in politics is IN-FUCKING-VALID.
I dont hate america.
But you just speak about things YOU DONT KNOW.

The only politics an american knows are the ones their super vietnam veteran granpa knows.

All you know is: communism is bad, russia sucks, America is the only country with freedom, god bless america.

Please, do what you KNOW: MTV, mcDonalds, Movies.

>>2050588
>universal healthcare

It's good in some implementations. I personally like the idea of a medical savings account for everyone, into which the Government puts the money it would otherwise be spending on health care. Then the people get to choose their treatment, and everyone gets the basics. I fail to see any flaws in this system. I'd be happy for someone to point them out.

>>2051161
The fact that you need a government to do this.

>>2051149
Yes, and no. I think you'll find a lot of people have come to america to escape their government, and as such, have much insight into government types that work and don't. Maybe you should specify natural born americans.

>>2051164
There will always be a government.

>>2050625

Wow do you realize how fucked up that sounds? American health care system sucks dick

>>2051167
Even Actual americans can have critical thinking in politics, but they are sooo fucking few compared to its population.
Immigrants are a different story.

>>2051177
There doesn't have to be. I'd rather have no gods, no masters. But if you want to be oppressed on a daily basis be my guest, just leave me out of it.

>>2051179
I agree with you, its completely fucked up.
Americans dont realize that because they are used to it, and they view it as something normal.

Just like a child born in africa getting raped and died of AIDS in the age of 4, same with americans, it natural to them, they can't imagine otherwise, only the scaretactics their media displays.

ITT: People that affirm a government's nonexistent right to rule over people that want no part of it.

>>2050625
>If you don't have the means to pay the bill they give you on the way out, that's your own fucking problem and you need to figure out a way to pay it.
This sounds horrible.

>>2051193
No, human race survived cause of their sociality.
Alone they are extremely weak, what makes them a strong species is that they live in large groups.
And that is embedded to our dna.

Either way it will always end up in Some kind of government=people who decide.
Otherwise it will be chaotic.
Whether we like it or not.

i dont get americunts, why is a government a bad thing? have you not seen china in the past 20 years and their state owned enterprises?

disclaimer: not american, not chinese

>>2051205

>Implying rights are protected by anything other than the government.

>>2050588
It sounds good, finally america is catching up with the rest of the world. Feeld Good man

>>2051233
Did you not notice that China started booming when they abandoned a planned economy model and allowed a market economy to develop?

>>2051220
Mainstream ideology detected. Worst part is this thinking is on the rise. I'm glad we're at the brink of commercialized space travel. The first chance I get I'm outta here to experience real freedom. I'm sick and tired of being an obedient citizen, should be called obedient sheep, just because authorities mandate it. And no laws aren't there to ensure everyone's rights are adhered to, they are simply there to oppress us into agreeing with the majority's morals.

>>2051237
Who keeps the government in power? Us, therefore we're to blame.

Attention all anarchists: Move to Somalia.

PEOPLE PEOPLE.
America didn't become greatest economy because of capitalism alone.
It become because they bullied other countries, and used other countries money and resources for themselves.
Now that they are slowly depleting, america is losing its 'touch'

>>2050656
I'd like to make a point here that in some way or form, all those things cost money. It's kinda messed up. In my opinion there are a few things that I want socialized. I want my healthcare not in the hands of someone who wishes to profit off of me but in some asshat's hands who at least won't cheat me. Also I believe that every citizen who seeks a higher education should have the means to pursue it, for only education of its citizens can keep a democracy working.

>>2051268
>implying that there isn't an Islamic dictatorship on the rise there.

>>2051261

>Rights are protected by large groups of people that agree they all have rights. Those who don't agree are thrown in prison where they lose their rights.

>>2051274
>rights are privileges.

>>2051273
That raises a question.

How do you enforce anarchy? People have always arranged themselves into power structures. What stops another government popping up once we get rid of the one we've got?

>>2051249
ya they went from communism to state capitalism, and in the process lifted hundreds of millions frrom low class to middle class

>>2051272
>>2051272
>>2051272
I agree 100%
Higher education should be available for everyone without paying tonnes of cash.
And healthcare being private is the most insane thing to do.

Corporations=profit=your FUCKING LIFE.

Its REALLY dangerous to have health in hands of corporations.

>>2051287
If people all agree on one rule: there is no government. And simply enforce it themselves through the private contractors they hire for protection.

>>2050996
Hitler ran Germany with a command economy.

FDR also ran the USA with a command economy, too.

Your point?

>>2051301
Lol, remember Affirmative Action? Do you want to ever see that again? That's what you'll get if you try to give everyone affordable education. Shitty or unequal education. Keep tuition costs up. If you're smart enough you'll get scholarships or gov't loans.

Plus, fuck universal health care. Same reasons.

>>2051305
That requires 100% of people agreeing.
NOPE.avi

>>2051338
Why do you think I'm a misanthrope? You people need to oppress yourselves in order to survive, fucking sickening.

>>2051317
Ye fuck universal healthcare.
>till he gets sick and insurance fucks his up
>becomes liberal and supports free healthcare like a nigger.

Now srsly.
Your education 'reason' was idiotic.

>>2051305
>>2051305
Wut?
Elaborate pls.
How do you define anarchism?

>>2051317
>Racist detected

But we still have affirmative action in America. Everyone is fucking fine with it. It is working as intented. WTF ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?

>>2051353
This is pretty much the foundation of Anarcho-Capitalism and seems to be the easiest form of anarchy to obtain. Anarchy is just no governemnt, it doesn't mean no laws.

>>2051364
Obviously, stuff about he doesnt know.
Just your average american.

>>2051348
Good schools have enough shithead applicants to whom which it would not be to the school or the students advantage to teach. Take a fucking Economics class. Its basic supply and demand. You can't have price control on a commodity with inelastic demand. That would just cause a corollary increase in taxes. There's no such thing as a free education.

>>2051366
And how this system will operate/work?
Not being sarcastic, trying to figure out Anarchism.

>>2051370
except there is....

>>2051373
Stole from wiki, but is pretty much it in a nutshell:
In an anarcho-capitalist society, law enforcement, courts, and all other security services would be provided by voluntarily-funded competitors such as private defense agencies rather than through taxation, and money would be privately and competitively provided in an open market. According to anarcho-capitalists, personal and economic activities would be regulated by the natural laws of the market and through private law rather than through politics. Furthermore, victimless crimes and crimes against the state would not exist.

Anarcho-capitalists argue for a society based on the voluntary trade of private property and services (including money, consumer goods, land, and capital goods) in order to maximize individual liberty and prosperity. However, they also recognize charity and communal arrangements as part of the same voluntary ethic.[10] Though anarcho-capitalists are known for asserting a right to private (individualized or joint non-public) property, some propose that non-state public or community property can also exist in an anarcho-capitalist society.[11] For them, what is important is that it is acquired and transferred without help or hindrance from the compulsory state. Anarcho-capitalist libertarians believe that the only just, and/or most economically-beneficial, way to acquire property is through voluntary trade, gift, or labor-based original appropriation, rather than through aggression or fraud...

>>2051366
>Anarchy is just no governemnt, it doesn't mean no laws

Where are these laws kept then? Who changes them? Who enforces them? Sounds like some kinda government is needed for laws.

>>2051383
Sounds good, however I would think that your country/state that would operate on these principles would have to have an entire population of like-minded people.

>>2051401
Never heard of private law?

>>2051415
...Private government?

>>2051364
Not everybody is fine with it, that's why its fucking illegal in some states. Its blatant discrimination against those whom are eligible for enrollment but NOT eligible for Affirmative Action.

>>2051383
But there will be laws bout the market etc.
You can't do whatever you please.
In the end its just a different way to say "government"

>>2051402
Indeed, thats why, if its possible, I'm planning on leaving this oppressed planet.

>>2051422
No.
Private law (Civil law) is that part of a legal system that involves relationships between individuals. This includes the law of contracts or torts and the law of obligations. It is distinguished from public law, which deals with law involving the state, including regulatory statutes, penal law and other law of public order.

>>2051428
No its not, there would be no governemnt. It'd be up to you enforce your own rights. No big brother to look after anyone.

>>2051430
How would you feel about a libertarian socialist government that provides basic amenities such as education, infrastructure, healthcare, internet, water and electricity for free/nearly free, alongside a free market competing against the government services in terms of quality and price, and other shit such as electronics and so forth?

The problem I see is that having just socialism does slow down competition and advancement in some areas, but having just a free market seems to subject the people to the whims of the stock market and companies.

>>2051441
The way you describe it leads me to believe that something akin to Somalia will manifest itself.

Are you guys sure it is the private healthcare/socialized health care that would make a huge difference in USA.

One thing I notice is that health care is fucking expensive in USA.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_spe_per_per-health-spending-per-person

USA - $4,271 per person
Finland - $1,704 per person

And arguably Finland has a much wider range of health care recipients.

Maybe if you didn't sue the doctors for every single thing they could do less expensive 'cover your ass' medicine.

If cost of health-care would be 2.5 times lower, as it is in Finland, then perhaps buying insurance would not be such a big problem any more?

Good application of risk pooling.

For all of their differences, most developed nations have public health care in common.

There might be something to the idea of keeping the strata that forms the foundation of your hierarchy healthy and productive.

>>2050588
>>2050600
That a single payer system ends up costing everyone twice as much for half of the healthcare compared to the evil "Communistic, stalin, hitleresk social" healthcare which can be found in over 9000 developed western nations.

>>2051444
Libertarin socialism is the only kind of socialism I can stomach. But the issue lies with the fact that those in charge will abuse their position. Its the fundamental problem with power, it really does corrupt. My issue with socialism is that it is majority rule - thus people who don't see eye to eye with the mainstream are forced into accepting the majority's direction. Imagine if this majority was a bunch of anti-intellectuals (which it usually is), their focus wouldn't be pursuits of knowledge like science but rather bullshit like instilling creationism in the classroom, for example.

>>2051448
Somalia is being overrun right now by an Islamic regime. They don't have anarchy anymore.

>>2051478

Socialism. Do you even know what this term means?

What I mean by everyone having a right to higher education does not innately mean everyone should have a highly trained job, but everyone get a higher basic understanding of math, science, etc to A. Provide better opinion and to spot the bad politicians and B. to improve quality of life/social mobility. NOT to create an even greater influx of pre-med students or whichever. Education shouldn't only be for occupation, it is necessary as a citizen of a democracy for other reasons than that.

Also there's not too much wrong with affirmative action, but it seems to be aimed wrong. Instead of being based on race it really should be based on family income history. Those who really need it are those who are stuck in poverty not a rich well educated african american or whatever. But really I don't know much on how affirmitive action is done.

>>2051428
You seem to lack an understanding of waht government and laws are.

>>2051482
>>2051482
Its an economic system of spreading resources, aka taking form the rich and giving to the poor. Its essentially a system where the majority rule.

fucking socialism, how does it work?

>>2051495
It doesn't.

>>2051491
Google "Socialism"m you're not quite right.

>>2051478
How would you feel about a mix of democracy and technocracy?

70% of votes for specific ministers (so Minister of Biological Sciences and Medicine would get voted in by doctors, biologists, geneticists etc)
While 30% is just the standard population voting.

>>2051478
MMP's good for that. I know I say it a lot, but a more representative system prevents strong majorities appearing, means people actually have to think about their policies a bit more carefully, and probably some other benefits too. You can't ever please everyone, and pleasing the majority isn't going to work either. Leaving everyone mildly dissatisfied but pretty well off and fairly represented is probably the best way to go.

>>2051485
i suppose u know better.

>>2051500
from wiki:
Socialism is an economic and political theory advocating public or common ownership and cooperative management of the means of production and allocation of resources.
Oh I get it: everyone owns everything and no one owns anything. Fuck that.

I've never heard it adequately explained how an Anarcho-capitalism could avoid critical mass leading to plutarchy.

The answers are always disturbingly hypocritical contrivances that mirror the same naivite and wishful thinking its proponents accuse communists of.

>>2051491
>LMAO

Stop listening to GLEN BECK, guy has no fucking eductation, doenst know shit about history, and literally has no fucking idea what he is talking about! HE IS TROLLING AMERICA!

>>2051506
I'm not saying that laws of the kind you think will remain exist without goverment, so yeah.

>>2051509
Hurp durr, it means resources and production are collectively owned. Not 'hurr everyone owns my house and my car'

>>2051517
I wouldn't listen to that moron conservatard if my life depended on it.

>>2051525
>lacks reading comprehension.

>mfw things aren't really so bad here in NZ
Yeah, shits expensive here. Other than that, it's great.

>>2051524
How old r u?

>>2051509
No, not quite (your understading I am refering to)
An example of socialist operations within the US would be the Army, Police and Fire Dept.
It's not an inherently bad thing and all nations employ it to one degree or another, anobody saying it should all be removed and is evil is a moron.
It's like saying free enterprise is evil, it's just at odds with the world and likely stems from a lack of understanding or malice.

You haven't refreshed the roots of the tree of liberty with the blood of tyrants in over a century (and I'm not talking about some sand niggers halfway across the world). It's long overdue.

Democracy is fine, it just requires occasional maintenance.

>>2051525
>means resources and production are collectively owned.
> collectively owned.
> resources
So I can't own a mine or a farm. Fuck that, I invested the money into that farm, its mine. Alongside the tractor. Enjoy your collectively owned life, HURR DURR.

>>2051540
Old enough sailor.

Seriously however you're not going to get an answer.
I can/do vote and pay tax, that is all you need know.

>>2051546
Mmmkay, keep complaining like my two year old sister.
'I FOUND IT ITS MINE'

>>2051544
A little blood to oil the gears, as it were?

>>2051546
>I invested the money into that farm
>implying you have to buy land rather than have it assigned to you so you can work it

>>2051554
was just curious.
Either way you think like a teenage.

>>2051555
Is that you strawman?
I said I want to be able to own resources that I pay for with the money my blood and sweat payed for. If you really think you ought to have this right to just waltz in and tax the pay-off of my labor I'd seriously start questioning your mixed morals.

>>2051567
Actually I believe that collective ownership of shit like that cannot exist and work effectively without at least partial post-scarcity.

>>2051556

Motherfuckers forget how they got their rights in the first place.

>>2051564
I want to own the farm I work on. I don't want to give away my profits to some ill conceived political system that needs my support in order to function.

>>2051574
>I don't want to give away my profits to some ill conceived political system that needs my support in order to function.

You're already doing that now, and I don't see you stopping anytime soon.

Jesus Christ you women are still rattling about this bullshit?

GO BACK TO /new/ OP. STOP DRAGGING OUR BOARD TO YOUR LEVEL.

EVERYONE ELSE, FUCK OFF. POST YOUR HOMEWORK OR SOMETHING. FFS.

>>2051574

Not even to fund a military?
At this point it's probably not wise for America to become a defenseless nation.

>>2051574
Right. And the workers want to own their factory, and get a fair portion of the fruits of their labour, instead of it being used to support the luxurious lives of the people higher up in the business.

I'm not advocating socialism, I just don't think you're arguing your own side very well.

>>2051595
I never said I was happy with the current political regime, which happens to be socialist. My solution is simple, screw this species, I'm moving as far away the second I get the chance. Unfortunately that means I'm gonna have to wait this bullshit out a wee bit longer till we have personalized space-stations.

I say free healthcare.

I won’t argue for it with ideology but just look at the world.

The countries with government or mandatory health insurance have the highest living standards in the world, Scandinavia, Switzerland and many others.

Also to some extent free education.

Universities can charge fees but there have to be loans guaranteed, can’t miss talent, everybody needs a shot at the best universities.

And there my socialism ends and my capitalism begins. As long as healthcare and basic educations is free, all is well.

>>2051604
Maybe because I'm tired of talking to a giant red wall all day.

>>2051249

China started booming when it stuck its tiny dick in America's asshole in the form of a rigged currency market and a horrifyingly cheap labor force.

>>2051604
Worker owned factory is possible today. Gather 500 workers and have them each chip in to the capital. Each receives shares in exchange.

You don't need to change the system for that.

What socialism added was to make it illegal for anyone but state to own means of production. And of course all this taking things away and killing people as warning to others thing. And constant terror to keep people from complaining.

>>2051608

If only it were that simple.

>>2051631
>killing people
>constant terror

That doesn't actually have anything to do with communism itself. That's a consequence of corruption, and it'll happen in any system unless you have sufficient checks and balances in place.

>>2051652
Killing people and constant terror have everything to do with communism. Otherwise there would be no difference with society today.

There is now law stopping employees to form companies and own the share of company where they work at.

Communism adds forbidding private enterprise and confiscating other peoples property. You can not do that without violence and terror is the most cost effective measure for maintaining this unnatural society.

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>>2051711
I see you Trollin boy

ummm, you guys know the US is the least socialist of pretty much all developed nations, right? right or wrong?

the amount of misinformation and propaganda that influences American thought is getting to the point where it's real scary

>>2051711
Do you think that just communism is unnatural? All forms of government are unnatural. It is a manipulation on our instincts to brainwash people into believing they need to be ruled by a government. Our morals are instinctual in nature, most of us thrive working together without any authority. Was it an authoritative force that brought you to study science or do any other intellectual pursuit?

>>2051751
>point where it's real scary

Agreed, I blame Faux news!

>>2051761

>>2051761

fox news is obvious. you think NBC, CNN and the AP aren't corporate propaganda machines as well? you think a free press even exists in the US?

>>2051760
>All forms of government are unnatural
[citation needed]
Sweeping generalizations and insufficient answers may cut it on /new/, but we're better than that.

Come back when you've traded opinion for substance.

>>2051729
I really was not trolling. This is how I see the issue based on my thinking and my experience. I haven't gotten a serious response yet.

You thought I am trolling so please point out my logic fallacies (that you thought to be intentional).

>>2051760
>All forms of government are unnatural
Yet all societys from them in one way or another. Just like cars, anti-biotics and computers.

These things are good, thats why we have them, mostly. Not all we crate is good or useful, but a goverment is one of those things.

>>2051778
When I do watch real news on tv I watch it on link TV. one of the few places with real news.
BBC world is not too bad as well.

My nation of Australia has national health care. We also have a strong economy and reasonably sensibly electoral and parliamentary system.

>>2051785
>>2051819
Ok terrible choice of wording. I should've just said what I said after that sentence. Every gov't is guilty of "social engineering", as much as phrasing of this term bothers me it describes exactly what is going on.So it now works with the government stooges and the media doing some neuro-linguistic programming on the masses to make'em think they need them. This does create a certain selection pressure that wouldn't be there if the regime didn't meddle in our progress. So one could say "unnatural" - artificial would be a better way to describe it.

>>2051938
*could say unnatural metaphorically.

Epic thred is epic

>>2050692
>>implying that denying people the right to not fucking die in the street from disease and injuries is liberal.
kill yourself. even conservatives would laugh at you. but then they laugh at peoples houses burning down when fire men dont put it out but just stand there and watch it burn

>>2051819
FUCK THE NCR!

To a point, this sounds great.

Just like there is a public school system that is free, there should be government healthcare(we already have it for old people)

Maybe not for life, but definitely for minors. There should be limitations on it though, if the government is giving you something for free, and you take advantage of it (cosmetic surgery, drug seekers) then it shouldn't be available to you.


The taxing the rich more is a stupid idea though, why not a flat tax rate or 10% for all? And instead of no tax cuts for big companies, why not give moderate tax cuts for those that do not outsource?

Anon for President, 2012

>>flat tax

A flat tax is hugely unfair, especially when there is an unevenness of wealth.

Seriously, as soon as less than 50% of the country has more than 50% of the wealth, the whole system is unfundable without sending the entire lower class into soul-crushing poverty, which disincentizes work, which lowers overall productivity per person, which creates less tax revenue.

A poor person can be broken via a 5 or 10% tax.

A rich person laughs at that much. It's generally a drop in the bucket compared to what they make on investing their money.

I think it would be good if all working people would pay a certain amount of 'health taxes' which are used to pay for basic things visiting a doctor if you are sick and spending nights at hospitals if you need it.

Wait... that's done here in germany...
Thank god I live in europe...

>>2050601

I love how pretty much nobody replied to you, because there is nothing wrong with that logic. They're too busy name-calling and correcting spelling rather than discussing the subject at hand.

>>2053384
<3

>>2050600
security could just as easily be a commodity. lets privatise the police and army

"Health care" shouldn't be treated as a commodity, as one's ability to live on a physiological level is not a fucking commodity.

America has a persistent tradition of being backwards. Perhaps it's because of the archaic political philosophy that nearly half of our country parades around?

>>2050601
Flawless.

It's the devils tool.

Proper God-fearing people will be healed by our lord.

Which is why the godless democrats have come up with something like this.

>>2050588

Not /sci/ related.

As a personal opinion:
Sure why not?
I mean, I get great healthcare (Save for the fear of waking up limbless due to an idiotic doctors mistake when I was getting surgery in Korea) and much better so than my own Dad (Who has been working 20 years and was almost bankrupted as a result of getting sick). I don't think financial burdens should prevent people from going to the hospital if they are sick or injured.

Of course this means enacting laws people wouldn't agree with further. Such as making sure that a profit system cannot be implemented but meh.

>>2050625

Seems like none of the "omg healthcare is bad!" people in here realize that it's actually more economically beneficial for a nation to have a universal healthcare system, in the long run.

But then again, it will never happen in the US, cuz it's run by the ones with money, and they don't want to share.

Well, while you die off, I'll be over here in scandinavia enjoying my healthcare, to the max.

(Maybe I'll go have a medical examination, for free, just for shits and giggles?)

The fact is that America does not have the finest health care system in the world; it has the finest emergency care system in the world. Highly trained American doctors can summon Star Wars-type technology in saving patients who have become seriously injured or critically ill. But as far as preventative medicine goes, the U.S. is still in the Stone Age. It should be no surprise that in America's health care business, entrepreneurs will take a pound of cure over an ounce of prevention every time.


In other words, Canadafag here: feels good to have universal healthcare.

And 90%of the country agrees.

>[PDF] 90 % of Canadians support public health care

medicare.ca/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/nanos-poll.pdf

>>2053552
I wish I had the money to move to Canada, or somewhere else in the world besides this shit hole.

>>2053531
>Seems like none of the "omg healthcare is bad!" people in here realize that it's actually more economically beneficial for a nation to have a universal healthcare system, in the long run.

>posits a questionable statement as though it were fact and proceeds to base other statements on it as fact.

>Well, while you die off, I'll be over here in scandinavia enjoying my healthcare, to the max.

Yeah, and who developed all the technology for health care? americans did. go fuck yourself. your shit is not "cheap" because of your own doings. it's cheap because americans funded the r&d for everything and you sat and collected the benefits.

go fuck yourself, eurotrash.

>>2053564
>under the age of 18
so I guess you support school-shootings?

>>2053564
Is this shit real? O.o Britain is more fucked then America.

>>2053567
That ain't funny, my brother was stabbed by underage whitetrash in the UK. Still think it's better than being shot.

>>2053590
Actually, being shot is less painful than being stabbed.

>>2050683

He has figured it out.
Socialized healthcare.

>>2053567
>Yeah, and who developed all the technology for health care? americans did
>all the technology
>all
>americans did

I mad

>>2053621

>>2053605
true

death doesn't hurt

>>2053638
>he actually thinks getting shot always kills

>>2053567
Your point being ? If Americans produce technology and all the other countries put it to better use, more power to them. You're just an idiot.

>>2053655
would not take chances with the caliber legal in the U.S.

and this is why no one takes professors seriously anymore. they support laughable measures like universal health care and inferior public school systems and corrupt unions

>>2052434
maximumbrofist.jpg

>>2053666
also evolution is just a theory

you need a paradigm shift swiftly

Making people have to say for treatment is the most retarded evil idea ever.

Healthcare should be free for all.

Anyone who disagrees is stupid beyond belief and evil.

>>2053704
Derp at its most finest. Gravity is also "just" a theory, and I don't even think you know what that word means.

My goodness, has this ever been going on a long time...

I wonder what /sci/ thinks of the idea of a two-tier system. I.E. Government-run hospitals being active alongside private ones. You can get service at the latter, if they cost the same or less as government price guides say they should, but otherwise you have to pay the difference yourself, either by yourself or through insurance.

It'd cut lines, get more people treated, and even allow private competition into health-care, which is a pretty awesome thing.

>>2053767
Just like Britain

>>2053820
>just like the whole world minus U.S.A.
fix'd

where the fuck are private clinics illegal? USSR?

>>2053666
>support laughable yadda yadda yadda
Yes, it must seem so to you. US never claimed it had the most farsighted people in the world. Or any.

>>2053841
You're fix was true. I just live in Britain so i said that.

USSR does not exist anymore i hope you knew that or i shall have to kill you.

>>2053848
>>2053848
>USSR does not exist anymore
CAPITALIST LIES!

>>2053867
Well if it still exists they must be very very relaxed as i have been to russia a few times. A westerner is Russia.
People werent randomly disappearing either.

>>2053661
>Your point being ? If Americans produce technology and all the other countries put it to better use, more power to them. You're just an idiot.
No. No no no no no no no. Eurotrash morons rag on american health care for being "expensive", but a primary reason for our health care being expensive is that healthcare and pharm companies have to recoup their r&d expenditures. since you maggots don't care about patent laws, you get to take all that developed tech and pay less for it.

>mfw Private Finance Initiative

Prepare your economy

Sauce on girl in op pic.

She's cute.

I personally like the path the U.S. is going...it will be interesting to see what would happen if someone like Sarah Palin because elected into a position of power here. And I'd also like to see what will happen when we lower the bar in education/increase the cost of higher education without providing quality and provide even less affordable means of health insurance to U.S. citizens....

Maybe I should start voting for tea party candidates to help speed this downfall along

Maybe its best that we don't have it. people will find a way to exploit the crap out of the system.