/sci/ - Science & Math

Post now.

>what I think

Are you an accomplished scientist with respected research in the field and published papers? Because I'm not interested in all the great ideas a white teenager on the internet came up with.

>>2015071
so if he's a nigger teenager, you are interested?

I am a third year undergraduate, Genetics B.S.

will start posting...one second

A tentative blueprint for a successful colony has been identified. A successful colony is defined as one that is as self-sustaining as possible, one that is structured in regard to its society so that cohesiveness between all colonists (no matter the rank) and the goal of the colony is strong, and one that can survive on its own accord should Earth be annihilated. The goal of the colony is defined as the continuation of the human race and the research and development of everything beyond our home planet.
To be self sustaining, the colony should be able to provide basic conditions for life to thrive. Oxygen and water must be produced in a manner that consumes the least amount of energy and does the least amount of work. Food must be either produced in a similar fashion, or delivered to the colony on a routine basis.


PART ONE

To have a cohesive relationship between all colonists and the goal of the colony, the individuals selected for this mission must be of particular character. Someone with this particular character should be logical, intelligent, creative, motivated, caring and innovative. “The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one,” this statement should be an agreed upon point of commonality in regard to the thinking of the entire colony population. The popular phrase “Absolute power corrupts absolutely,” should be regarded as ill-conceived and pessimistic. Although the history of humans on Earth shows that this phrase should apply and be a blanket statement covering every human, it is not the case. There exists humans who are incorruptible to a certain degree, these humans are highly idealistic and are selfless in character and actions. A classic example of this would be a war hero, or some “whistle blowers” at corporations/organizations.

PART TWO

The early structure of “government” (I discuss why this term is in quotes later) should be that of a “dictatorship” (for lack of a better word). Stop. I understand that this phrase has a negative connotation, and the response elicited inside you, human, was not good. Please disregard whatever you think based on your past experiences, for they will do you no good. Please let me explain my choice of leadership…dictatorship is when one individual has absolute (or near absolute) power and authority (again, these two words give a negative connotation, am I right?). Power and authority when wielded by an individual incorruptible to a certain degree will be used for the best interest of the colony, so any concerns about an individual using this position for personal gain are not logically founded or concluded. “The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.”

PART THREE

Now, I shall continue. In this particular scenario, I propose that the dictatorship be that of near absolute power wielded by an individual. They are not absolute, please take note of this, they are not absolute. For example, let us say that a shipment of foodstuffs is to be delivered at ‘x’ time from now, and given the quantity of the shipment, ‘h’ number of robots are needed to help unload the shipment. Allocation of a certain amount of the total energy of the colony supply is to be rerouted to this unloading area to power the robots. If the person in charge gives the order to shut off the bathing facilities let us say and allocate that power to this part of the colony, then this is not just going to happen with no one thinking for themselves! People will calculate the total amount of extra energy needed to reroute in order to power the otherwise dormant unpacking robots and then confirm that the leader has not made a mistake.

PART FOUR

. If the leader has incorrectly assumed some variable and calculated a final result using this incorrect assumption, then it is to be corrected using logic and math. This is a case when an order given by a leader is trumped by someone who is not the leader. The leader will then adhere to this and understand where the logical fallacy was made in the initial order. Maybe one shower can be left on because energy that would power 5 showers is needed to power the robots, and not all 6 showers are needed to be temporarily shut down. This ensures maximum operating efficiency of the station as a whole and ensures that logic and math trump all, and not emotion. Realizing that foodstuff is greater than the comfort of a shower, the colonists will logically conclude that this is the correct course of action. At anytime and in anyplace, a colonist may issue a rebuttal to any order given by any leader. The calculations and recalculations done will then decide the most logical course of action. With this sort of societal structure, titles mean nothing, and the title of “leader” will only serve to make a single person as the “diplomat” or “representative” of the colony.

PART FIVE

>>2015086
>>2015088
>>2015092
I'm liking this colony government.

Money will not exist here, for humans will realize that the only purpose of existence is to exist. Everybody will be alive to better themselves, and better their understanding of the universe, and their part in it. Because food, oxygen and water are a basic human need, it will be illegal to hold these commodities in a ransom-like fashion as humans on Earth do. Allocation of food and water will be done in a logical fashion. Compensation for work will be the realization that what you do today is paving the way for the successful expansion of humanity into the cosmos. Now, “government” will not exist in any way that you humans know it today. In this colony (remember the selection of individuals to do the colonizing is particular) everyone will be able to comprehend that what is needed for a successful colony; a collective. A collective is defined as a system wherein the inhabitants are working together for a common goal. Someone who will one day be a part of this colony will be able to comprehend why government will not exist as humans on Earth know it.

PART SIX

(I sway a bit into idealism I realize, but I want to discuss this whole thing and read critiques from all of you so that I can sharpen my idea a bit)

don't quit your day job

>>2015097

where do you find i am wrong

>>2015070

well to start, titan would be a shitty place to set up a colony.

>>2015103


the moon or mars would be my idea of a good place to start, this was a picture i randomly posted

>>2015098
pretty much everywhere

read a few history books on the founding of colonies in the new world

>>2015107

This whole idea though is centered around the supposition that you can rally people behind a cause that is greater than them self.

>>2015109
yeah, projects that rely on transforming human nature don't work out so well

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KPEJNGAlqw

>>2015113
It's already there. Just in smaller quantities. I would consider myself one of them.

>>2015109
And therein lies the major problem: finding such individuals, evaluating them, and making sure that they'll stick to the plan when shot into space (and not, say, go crazy because they can't handle it).

It's definitely noble and intelligent, and maybe I'm just cynical, but I can't see it working spectacularly if the fate of the colony hinges on hoping that humans can remain pure on distant worlds.

I like the ideas quite a bit, however, the mere fact is: humans aren't all intelligent, logic-based automatons. Emotion will play in no matter how hard you try to force it out. Consequently, if you'll pardon my allusion to a video game, the role of leader is very close to that of an Overseer in a "vault" as portrayed in the Fallout series. Basically, the Overseer does just that, oversees the vault's facilities and processes. Now, assuming there will be a need for an armed police force, and as most armed groups do, they have a leader themselves. What's to stop the leader from assuming control and imposing a fascist regime? Assuming, of course, support for the colonists from Earth is months, maybe years away. The leader could very well be an incorruptible human, however as you quoted the adage: "absolute power corrupts absolutely." This is quite true in many respects. If someone sees a chance to improve their standing as a leader, they will, more often than not, take it. I pose this question: If a leader takes control with an armed force of soldiers, or police, what failsafes would be in place to prevent this?

>>2015119
maybe you should watch a documentary on Jonestown sometime

>>2015123
>>2015128

lol, you science fags make me laugh

>>2015123

As would I, I think that enough can be found to settle a successful colony

>>2015124

Yes, this would be the major hurdle to be overcome. But I think that if one were to look enough, these people would pop up. This is one of the biggest obstacles to a successful colonization event I think.

>>2015134

>>2015128

there would be none, and this is a point on which my whole thought idea may collapse.

The only recourse, well I should say...the only "prevention" would be to successfully choose individuals for the colony, and because one or a few out of that pool of individuals would be the leader, they would be logical and in it all the way in regard to the advancement of the human race and the goals of the colony.

tl;dr I trust that people are intrinsically benevolent.

>>2015129

Jonestown is really in no way relevant to this, please tell me what connection you have made, for the fact that this could be related to my idea disturbs me a bit

>>2015139
There should be the ability to elect a new 'leader' with a 85% vote.

>>2015149

But the leader is just a representative and would really be more of a drag than anything( they would have more work to do )....there would be no special privileges forwarded to them and they would simply be the face of the colony or diplomat in some sense.

I am trying to eliminate corruption and the desire for power, because remember, their order can be reversed if logic and math disproves what they should mandate, and the way that they are (id est: character, intelligence) should make them ok with choosing the logical choice over their own and realizing that they made a logical fallacy or incorrectly assumed something.

>>2015145
because your 'colony' has all the hallmarks of a religious cult

seriously, read some history on early colonies

>>2015155
Sounds good. I may implement a similar plan on the Phobos Collision Plan.

Inurades, as our Australian ambassador, how is Project Tasmania coming along?

>>2015157


I am not sure you understand what I am trying to accomplish with this thought experiment.

The goal is to ensure humanity survive because with us on one planet, our chances of being completely annihilated are higher than if we branch out.

This whole colony is a productive plan put in action to decrease our probability of being wiped out from existence. That is all, nothing more.

>>2015158

>>Phobos Collision Plan

Can you elaborate?

>>2015139
People are intrinsically avaricious. Well, not intrinsically, however the world in which we live shapes people in this way. The only people I know personally who are benevolent are religious, and they would hardly make a good choice, you'd probably agree. As for someone in a position of power suddenly, without having such a power at their disposal previously, can't say with 100% certainty they would remain magnanimous once they're put in such a place of power. As you've not had such a power, so can you not say it wouldn't corrupt you. I used to think I would be one of these logical, cool-headed, benevolent "leaders" that you mentioned. I don't think that I could remain a good leader, thinking for the whole with an ability to take control with the possibility of being an absolute ruler. Honestly, I don't think any human is infallible.

>>2015162
Yes, I understand and find your goal worth discussing. However, your means are amateurish, unsound and will prove catastrophic. I don't understand why you feel the need to engineer a society from scratch.

>>2015160
Is still just in the light advertising and fundraising stage. I will not begin taking action toward the construction until around 2020.
>>2015166
Picture courtesy of Patachu.

>>2015170

>>the world in which we live shapes people in this way

>>2015175
I'm tired.

>>2015172

well, I really don't see any Earth based society successfully transplanting onto another world and then expecting that it be successful

There is too much avarice and displays of dominance going on which diminishes the quality of such an endeavor like the one I am inmagining

>>2015177

I was just highlighting what you typed because I thought that it proved my point that it is possible to change the way people do things if they live in a certain type of setting

I keep on accidentally deleting the name field and my browser is set to not auto fill or suggest what goes i fields

>>2015182
I figured you were pointing out my bad grammar.

>>2015185

why do you think no human is infallible?

what about humans makes you come to this conclusion?

>>2015181
I am trying hard not to call you a giant faggot because I think you have good intentions. But as the saying goes, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

short version: dominance and avarice get shit done. establishing property rights is the key to any effective society. work with those constraints instead of pretending otherwise, and your ideas will become much better.

>>2015189
That is indeed a tough question to answer, and the fact that I can't answer proves that at least I am not infallible. I suppose I have just not been given evidence to the contrary.

crashing phobos on mars would be stupid as hell

it will spread plenty of dust in the atmosphere and make the planet cooler

>>2015198
First off, it would be a controlled, slow descent, so a large part of Phobos' fall would warm up the atmosphere as it trails burning overhead. When it crashes into the Martian North Pole, it will send debris flying into space. However, Martian gravity is strong enough to reclaim almost all the ejection, and it will rain down across the planet, burning in the thin Martian atmosphere. Two things will happen:
1) As the iron oxide and chunks of water and CO2 ice rain down on Mars, it will raise the air pressure a substantial amount, causing Mars to be able to retain much more heat.
2) Because of this, seas and lakes will form in the equatorial regions.

The idea that Phobos smacking will cause a net drop in temperature is absurd. The amount of heat it will produce will outweigh the half a year or so of a planetary dust storm. After it is all done, Mars will now have a partial Earth-pressure CO2 and Oxygen atmosphere with liquid water on the surface. 50% of the job done right there.

>>2015197

>>implying humans can't change and are constant in regard to their nature

>>2015208

are you in university right now?

>>2015212
No, I am planning to go.

>can survive on its own accord should Earth be annihilated.

>or delivered to the colony on a routine basis.

>>2015210
No, I am clearly stating that from my first post onward.

>projects that rely on transforming human nature don't work out so well

It has been tried over9000 by people smarter, richer, and more capable than you. At best you turn out something like Christianity.

also this simpsons episode is relevant

>>2015216

Upon the colony being founded, immediate attention should be paid to the research of methods to produce food independently of shipments from home Earth. This will be the central problem facing the colonists.

>>2015214
I now feel immensly superior to you, having just completed my second year of a double degree.

>>2015220
It has been found that Asparagus could grow quite well in a Martian environment.

>>2015221
There is no superiority in this universe. Only dick measuring contests.
My talents do not lie primarily in academic pursuits. I wish to change the world for the better. In a large way.

>>2015222

just googled it and confirmed it...this is something isn't it? Very promising development.

>>2015224


Anons on /sci/ seem to know you by your tripcode.

Please tell me why you are so recognized on this board...

You have my attention.

>>2015220
lolwot? they're not going to send people somewhere without already knowing how to produce food independently of earth.


>>2015224
you sound like an idiot. just like every other time you post here. get a life kid.

>>2015229
At the risk of sounding like a complete cock, many people seem to see me as the embodiment of the future of society and science. I usually have very enthusiastic threads and arguments about the terraformation of planets, namely Mars. Along with radical life extension via the Manhattan Beach Project, transhumanism, and a technocratic libertarian socialist society that uses technology to free humans from work and to work on their interests and dreams.

>>2015229
Inurdaes is the prototypical /sci/ singularitard immortalist atheists who characterize the more adolescent scifi qualities of this forum.

>>2015238

Sounds all very good. But how do you plan to improve humanity in regard to these ideas. Posting on 4chan won't cut it, you say you plan to go to university?

>>2015238
I see you as the embodiement of pointless and biased optimism.

Looks like I will just get my degree in 1 year and then try and get into NASA or ESA and hopefully work on something that improves humanity.

Maybe humanity isn't quite ready to digest these type of ideas yet.

>>2015246
This, so hard.

Well meaning but naively optimistic and without a firm grounding in the sciences. He reads a lot of stuff at an abstract level but does not have very deep knowledge in any real fields. The kind of guy who reads pop science articles and books and wants to understand the whole world, but will never quite get the whole picture because he wasn't born a super genius.

Later /sci/ I am signing out and going to campus to study

>>2015255

lol, sounds like me when i was 13, luckily now though I am excelling in genetics, give him some credit though, maybe one day he will take this motivation to learn and help the world like I did and actually do something.

He is what, 14, 15, 16?

At least he is thinking about things.

inb4 you are just like him.

I am not, but I shared his desire for knowledge and found my home here at university and am now building a deep understanding in my choice of study, genetics

>>2015257
>>2015229
clever troll?

anyone else think he just did this to make fun of Inurdaes? I feel bad for him. Hes an idiot, but hes hearts in the right place.

>>and help the world like I did

Just realized what I wrote, I am tired and hadn't a wink of sleep, please disregard that part of my last post

>>2015246
>>2015248
Aww you like it. ;3
>>2015247
I plan to go to university for robotics and artificial intelligence programming after I get a nice, large, stable income. I predict I shall start around 2016/2018.
For the next 20 to 25 years I will attempt to fundraise over 10 million dollars to build a small technocratically run country built for the smart and intuitive. Robots do all work creating everything to be cheap, Money in its present form would not exist. However there would be the choice if people wanted to make a free market alongside the existing government production structure.

>>2015255
>>2015272
I don't deny I am an idiot. My plan is to grow my knowledge to fit my current ideas.
>>2015265
19. Nice try.

Inurdaes is far from an idiot. He's much better than the general population when it comes to actually thinking about things, looking at alternatives, etc. I'd say the only drawbacks in his visions of the future are a certain optimism and naivety. Remember how the internet was supposed to be some kind of communications revolution? But then we remembered that people suck and they just use it for pissing each other off and porn? I think the future's gonna be a bit like that.

>>2015282

lol y u mad though?

my post was saying how i thought you were not an idiot and i was just like you are right now 8 years ago

i really shouldn't have brought my laptop to the library....oh well here we go again

>>2015287
>But then we remembered that people suck and they just use it for pissing each other off and porn? I think the future's gonna be a bit like that.
I wish to prevent this. Even if on a small scale.

i come in peace

>>2015238

Wow, I thought I was the only one.

Living in some hundred years or so will be good. You probably won't be forced to work, as robots would do everything needed, save some powerful electromagnetic wave coming from the Sun or whatever other source that fries electronics. In that case, it'd suck.

>>2015282
>>19.

And you're not at University yet?

I'm 19 and I just finished my second year of Science+Computing. My Science degree is majoring in Psychology.

If you're genuinely interested in Artificial Intelligence, read Starglider's FAQ (he worked at the Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence before moving onto a small startup company):

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=136633

Keep in mind that the probability that you will be able to make a significant contribution is minimal at best.

As it was once phrased, in order to work in the field and make meaningful contributions, you need to be a genius. You can't work hard to make up for not being a genius, because the geniuses are already working hard to make up for being human.

>>2015313

What's with /sci/ and crushing dreams?

>>2015335
We crush your dreams so that you don't have to find out that they are a lie when it's already too late.

>>2015335
I don't know. But thousands of people worked on the Apollo missions. Were most of them replaceable? Sure. Does that mean they didn't contribute?

>>2015313
see
>>2015277
>But then we remembered that people suck and they just use it for pissing each other off and porn? I think the future's gonna be a bit like that.

>>2015359
Fuck, didn't copy.
>I plan to go to university for robotics and artificial intelligence programming after I get a nice, large, stable income

>>2015313 As it was once phrased, in order to work in the field and make meaningful contributions, you need to be a genius. You can't work hard to make up for not being a genius, because the geniuses are already working hard to make up for being human.

This is depressing not because this is true but because this is wrong and many people believe that.

These kind of threads make me feel quite selfish. All I want is to be a doctor by day, private investigator by night. Or Dick van Dyke.

JUst interested OP, why so interested in colonies considering your area of study is genetics?

>>2015377
Don't feel bad. I want to be a space pirate.

>>2015371
This. 1000times.

>>2015377

I want to study rates of mutations in populations of humans that exist outside of Earth, be it the ISS or on Mars or the Moon

inb4 mad scientist...I would only look for mutations arising from UV radiation (mammals don't have p53 btw), and other environmental factors

>>2015418

i should revise that, in humans it does not do what it does in other animals on earth...humans/mammals do have it...

>>2015418
Mutations mostly just lead to cancer... on the whole not very exciting.

>>2015440

Yes but the rates and amount of nucleotide base abnormalities are different depending on what mutagen you are exposed to and in what dosage

>>2015071
mfw people think you have to have qualifications to have good ideas and be able to think

>>2015371
It's a hard fucking truth about Seed A.I. research. Every douchebag who did an honors project in the field of A.I. is so sure that he has the unique insight that will make all the difference, but he never does.

The work is slow, meticulous and soul-crushing. The funding for it is practically non-existent in the wake of the A.I. winter. There exists only a miniscule number of jobs in A.I. research anyway, and there are no shortages of graduate students who want to get in. You literally need to have genius level IQ or be able to secure your own funding if you expect to work there as anything other than a janitor.