/sci/ - Science & Math

OP is a fag.

who cares about biology? if it wasnt because pre-med students need to take it, it will be next to women studies.

>>1936871

who cares about mathematics? if it wasnt because pre-graduate school students need to take it, it will be next to women studies.

>>1936874
wat?

at least undergrad math students that decide to go to grad school will end up doing research.. most med students wont.

>>1936879

Lots of doctors do research, as well as the, you know, biologists.

Agree with you op, i dont know why no one sees something wrong in biology.. i mean being the only science that you learn everything by memorization should raise red flags

Mathematics/biology grad here. This is a huge field that has lots of opportunities for any 2nd tier mathematicians. COME OVER HERE GUYS AND LETS PROGRESS SOCIETY WITH APPLIED MATHEMATICS.

>>1936874
Mathematical concepts helped to develop more complex and precise equations for many fields. Biology concepts helped me get bored for 6 hours a week for 15 weeks and laugh at all those pre-med students who had to buy a 150$ book which they never used in the semester except once to copy a drawing of a cell

>>1936874
>>1936879
>>1936871
>>1936883
who cares about college? if it wasnt helpful in making more money it would be like graduating from highschool
>>1936885

>>1936883

of med school students??? i would confidently say 5%, because you dont need to pas through the burden of being a MD to do research.

>>1936856
OP is not a fag.

pumb for educated opinions

monitoringthisthread.jpg

>>1936856
>Every fucking organism is different..
Uhh, comparative morphology?

>>1936871
>>1936879
you have the liberty to take your aspenger's to one of the many threads devoted to maths/physics/trolling

none forced you to post ITT

>>1936901
whats % is enough to call an organism different from another species..

If theres one.. its completely chosen by convention.

Also seeing fucking organisms as some sort of blobs its fucking stupid. if you convert the concept of organism into an abstract one. it resumes to a system interchanging information with some others.. but still, how we dictate the boundaries of the systems is completely by convention too.

>>1936866

Agreed, gigantic faggot.

5 minutes in wikipedia would have solved his mental gaps.

im as someone already mention here a 2nd tier mathematician.. i wish to have a more solid formation in this field. but at least im smart enought to understand that applied math for biological systems will actually lead to a better more efficient understanding of life. And even inside the field of math, there will be plenty of wrong approaches. but at least is better than bookkeeping

>>1936856
>Thank god, the field of non-linear dynamics.. which, after being completely neglected for decades in the field of biology is slowly getting acceptance, but still is broadly ignored, and even sometimes attacked

I see your point and I concur but I must remind you that if we investigate on that from the wrong angle we might lead ourselves to the trap of teleologic reasoning. I don't think I must mention why this is bad.

this is exactly the basis of my argument when i said that the "synthetic" organism Venter created in its lab its stupid.
If you go through the details of how they made it.. it seemed that they just took advantage of some loopholes in the definition of what is an organism

>>1936933
but dont you think the current approach is flawed.

i suppose is obvious to you, but we at least should be more open to different approaches. instead of continue on the massive and endless journey biology in its current state purpose to go through.

cell biofag here, this is exactly the shit we talk about in my philosophy of bio class (yeah go ahead and rage). Biology is constructed on top of physics and chem so yeah it hasn't got any laws or absolutes, but its defiantly not all memorization. Its just insanely complex reaction you learn to love.

http://pubs.acs.org/cen/science/84/8447sci1.html

Link related, watch the video and tell me you don't think it's awesome.

>>1936969
sure dude.. but if we ask the right questions.. without a solid theory.. this questions will be a joke.. im sure before darwin. evolution was a really hard question to answer.

>>1936945
Well until we'll find some dynamic model that accurately describes the mechanics of evolution sticking to our current methodology instead of making wild mathematical assumption seems a bit reasonable. After all the situation is not as gloomy as you describe it. Cladistics developed primarily without the need of mathematical/statistical models, just IRL observations, but at some point it became apparent that in order to clarify and refine the phylogenetic tree we had to incorporate methods like parsimony. I think that gradually, and not so far from now, some more fundamental complex of descriptive algorithms will arise from our observations. Just give it some time (or research, cause if you are right about the generic attitude of bio-experts someone so unshettled and motivated on the subject might make a difference).

Personally I really suck at math so... :\

Hey guys, just popping in to see what's going on in this thread.

>>1936871
I still do not understand how you fucking faggots can be this ignorant. are you really going to denounce AN ENTIRE FIELD OF KNOWLEDGE because of the relative difficulty of some of it's college examinations? odds are a 110 that half the faggots posting this hurr durr biology shit are dumb as fuck trolls. Real scientists appreciate and learn all knowledge.(Carl motherfucking Sagan) There not some mouth breathing aspie retards who are just jelly cause they don't have what it takes to go to med school.

In response to op's question, i think it's fucking stupid.
goodnight and yes I mad. I very mad.

>>1937055
amen

aspie trolls

aspie trolls everywhere

Biology: Science for women.

Enjoy your soft science.


Also, med school is full of people with overinflated egos and no spine. Here, save a life or two, if you feel like it, for some money. Almost as bad as lawyers.

>>1937014
Could you be more clear (examples) as to what the questions we're currently asking are and what the "right" ones would be?

>>1937078
Biologist here, got females left and right of me. It's like having a harem. U jelly engineer fag?

>>1937078
>Science for women.
>Enjoy your soft science.
>his science is HARD

>med school is full of people with overinflated egos
>M.D.s are alpha jocks and make me feel threatened

>I'm bringing sexy back
>You Sagan fags don't know how to act

>>1937055
>>1937055
>>1937055


lol completely jumping and missing the point...

Well after studying the History of Biology and also include Artificial Intelligence, everyone is not impressed by the improvements it had made after the fucking 80s

>>1937102

Not an engineer,

and if I was looking for women, it wouldn't be in school.
Enjoy your hambeasts and flat-faced gooks that can't speak english.

>>1937102
>got females left and right of me
>U jelly engineer fag?
>does not compute

>Take them to the lab.

>>1937089

Well is the general approach. you know.. focusing in matter instead of organization by a reductionism approach, no entailment between systems, the sum is not the whole of the parts, and failure to study emergence, or even understand it, its a massive fail of biology.

>>1937109
A.I. wont happen until people realize that every individual cell in the human body is not merely of a function of the body but an individual soul living in a communist utopia.

>>1937131
communists are not genetically homogenous

Guys. If you belive in science, you're a faggot. Science can't even figure out 9/11.

>>1937146
not that guy but if think he refers as for organziation at their heterogenous at the top level (as 1 whole system i.e a country), by being identical at the lower level, just like basic particles are.

>>1937107

Please, the anti-intellectual cutthroat system that undergrads go through to get into med school just to get that guaranteed paycheck is the most disgusting thing to happen to science.
The fact that pre-meds deliberately sabotage each other to get ahead, take bird-courses to inflate their GPA and cram as much meaningless extracirriculars onto their med school applications just makes the system look like a joke.

The ones that do manage to get in there are either the geniuses that become surgeons, or the sleaziest pieces of shit one gets from this mockery of an education system.

>>1937131
not really because communsim is heavily based in the concept that the universe is created by the same building blocks and thats what it matter, if we behave as such we will manifest as a nation a level of efficiency as any living organism.

that is the general idea of how we approach biology, and i believe its wrong, and so many of us .

>>1937166
Do extracurriculars even help grad or med-school apps? Thought I read that they don't.

>take bird-courses

lol'd

>>1937109
I was responding to someone else's point but since the typical manner of discussion on 4chan is LOL U SO STUPID HURRR. I shouldn't have expected you to notice that.

In any case I surmise you are saying that biology is no longer of use to anyone or that because it doesn't have hard math ( not true, study ecology, biochemistry, genetics and so on) it is less of a science. This is a logical fallacy because it assumes that anything not based in hard math such as a social science has no insights.(it also assumes that those in non scientific disciplines do not at least take a scientific methodology to understanding their work. highly insulting.) This is so fucking ignorant my blood is boiling.

it was difficult to get your point since it was not a legible sentence. Biology hasn't produced anything after the 80's , srsly? and Op what kind of questions would you prefer we asked? why do you claim we don't know the "why" behind organisms. are you an idiot? and i just realised that i have been trolled expertly. im out of this thread.

>>1936856
There's actually a stunning amount of conservation between species when it comes to biochemistry and physiology. Even a human and a plant share more than 30% of their DNA with each other. It's unnecessary to study on humans except when the problem you're addressing specifically concerns humans (such as biomedical experiments). It would definitely speed things up if we could experiment on humans, but then we run into the issues that Unit 731 and Mendelev did.

>>1937109
>not impressed by the improvements it had made after the fucking 80s
>He doesn't know about the human genome project

>>1937189

the fucked up current approach, which you obviously follow, hasnt prove anything as satisfactory as the theory of evolution, sure the other big one is genetics. which is also trapped in the same concept as molecular biology, but at least mathematical models have been usen more often due to population genetics.

Also, im not implying is math required to do understand biology, actually biology's science approach try to emulate the physics one, by reductionism..
which is a very formal thing to do, this is still within math but without the mechanistic approach. You see.. we follow it so blindly that we believe theres no other way to do science, that we are actually doing science.

thats where you are wrong.

>>1937191
lol dont you think is pretty schocking that we resemble fucking rats by 90% and how drastically different we are of them. thats exactly the problem.. the genome project wasnt as big as expected. .. biologist intermediately knew something was wrong after they realize theres only 25,000 genes.. so counting genes is completely worthless.

>>1937218

...you're some kind of... hipster teen douchebag, I'm guessing

>>1937227
>so counting genes is completely worthless.

This thread is shit, and your post might take the gold.

Biology does feel pretty empty. It's knowledge for the sake of knowledge, which isn't a terrible thing, but not something you'd expect from science. Feels like chemists are doing the important stuff.

>>1937227
That's the thing, there aren't such huge differences. Even when talking about something as complex as the brain you find that most of the nuclei and structures are conserved across animals even as seemingly different as rats and humans. Even embryonic growth and gene regulation is extremely similar when comparing humans to fruit flies (google "homeobox genes"). As it turns out, you can generalize most concepts in biology, especially once you hit the molecular level. The only time where model organisms don't cut it is when you have to get perfect accuracy on a problem, and that usually only occurs in biomedical fields.

>>1937246

im saying is worthless compared of the expectations biologist had on the implications of knowing that info.. hell they already wher talking about being fucking gods after thinking they will figure the human out by such menial task

There was an article in the Wall Street Journal recently about the cracking of the genome and what an incredible disappointment it was. I mean, I thought we were going to be going from chromosome to chromosome fixing hereditary illnesses and fucking around with physical development, but no, not even close.

>>1937231
lol, fuck off

>>1937218

fair enough OP. Perhaps you could have made your case clearer from the outset as I had no idea what you were talking about. On that note take an english class dude. Your writing is shit , your grammer is shit and you present your position poorly. I tutor this stuff so I know.
>>1937260
Doe's anyone have that xkcd comic where they compare disciplines and find that math is the purest? I always refer to it in these "my major is better than yours lol "debates

Biology has been disappointing over the past half-century I'd say. It was going so strong, but it just seems to have fizzled, academically, into the pre-med major of choice and science student major of last resort (ie, couldn't handle math past multivariable calculus, but didn't want to study econ or psychology). I say this lovingly as a physics student with respect for the life sciences. An academic discipline is nothing without a passionate base of students, and biology does not have that.

>>1937268
LOOOOOL IS NOT.

which one would you think it will be by far more complex to generate.. 2 arms and legs or generate consciousness?.
its obvious that something completely different is going on.. after jumping on a level of complexity, previous laws dont apply anymore.

>>1937285
I'm not even a chem major (faggot engineer). Just Saiyan...

>>1937274
Funny, it seems like in every one of my biology courses we hear about some discovery that was due in part to the HGP.

Of course laymen wouldn't think that the HGP was important because they know fuck-all about biology. Anyone who has actually gone farther than university level intro bio though knows that the HGP marked a paradigm shift in biology, much the same way that Einstein's theory of relativity revolutionized physics.

>>1937288
mfw when im a passionate cell bio and neuro student.
mfw when most physics and chem majors do the same thing as bio majors
mfw your major has nothing to do with who you are as a person and you can't make broad sweeping generalizations on someone based on that. I.E, ive met drama students better at math than me.

>>1937227
>how drastically different we are of them
think how different rats are from men

now think how different are mammals from fish

think now how different are vertebrates from jellyfish

now think all of them how different they are from unicellular eukaryotes

now think the diversity of eukaryotes and think how fundamentally different they are to prokaryotes

now think that all those forms are products of the recombination of the same 4 nucleobases

now tell me with a straight face that rats are drastically different from humans

>>1936866

Indeed.

>>1937285
>>1937285
sorry dude english isnt my main language and im a bit drunk.

and lol no, this is not one of those your major is better than yours.. i just wanted to know how many people in sci share this thought.. i mean i think its a farely easy things to criticize from biology, which btw im still focused on.

>>1937288
And this is the problem with physical science fags. They think only their science is valid because "hurr durr, we use mathz!" It's really fucking pathetic that the people who think that they study the "superior" science are also the ones who know the least about science beyond their own field.

HAHA YES. i believe is by far much easier to get than all of those improvements

>>1937302
>No green text
>No accompanying face
This why you're major is bad.

>>1937302
>drama students
>good at math
Bullshit you have. YOU FUCKING LIE! I majored in PHYSICS which means I am the BEST!

>>1937312
it's 2 am lol i should be asleep. just use your imagination also newfag and forgot how to gtext.

>>1937312
Your an asshole.

>>1937318

>>1937291
don't be a fag

rats have proportionally larger brains than humans

it's size though is not big enough to allow a number of synapses that would initiate near human-intellect

also natural selection simply favoured some neurological traits that lead to tool-handling and abstract thinking in contrast to let's say dolphins where brain mass favoured echolocation and navigation skills

it's not some big mystery

>>1937310
>>1937310

LOOOL NO, math wouldnt be developing these models without knowing this stuff previously, but it seems that doing science by that way stopped to be useful at all, sure we might learn new stuff.. but it will takes fucking forever to actually escalate to a better level of comprehension., and would be pointless,

>>1937328
inb4: its

>>1936856
>>1936856

you dumb fuck. we use models because biological systems are extremely fucking complicated. what we can learn from a simple model thats easy to tinker with can be directly applied to non-model organisms.

BECAUSE of evolution and common ancestry we can do this. christ you are so comically dumb its makin me type this post with impotent rage.

i so mad.

>>1937327
lol so you are saying that consciousness is as trivial as having a fucking tail.

fuck you

>>1936856

btw its incredibly obvious you have never stepped foot into bio research

therefore your opinions and conclusions are invalid

sage

>>1937344
>>1937352
This and this, give these gentlemen a beer.

>>1937344
"trivial" is subjective

yet in comparison to the wholesomeness of the phylogenetic tree, evolutionary timespan and our composition on a molecular and morphological level... yes it's pretty much trivial

>>1937340
im not critcizing the modeling part dude, the problem are the models that focus in a pointless feature.. a perhaps over simplistic example would be how we tried to predict the movement of the planets and stars from the earths perspective. there a shit ton of models based on data with error margins etc.. After someone as Kepler built the model using less complicated models but a more complex by using a different perspective and.. Bam you got a fucking rather "simple system" which is our solar system which anyone learn in fucking grade school

At my university physics has declined in importance to the point where it's a part of the School of Chemistry and Physics, while biology has two schools (School of Biomolecular Sciences and School of Ecology and Earth Sciences) and has annexed geology entirely. Chemistry requires as much or more memorisation than Biology, but Physicists never attack them because Chemists are their bosses and because chemists don't make them quite so jelly.

>>1937364
what kind of models are we talking here
what kind of features are we talking here

>>1937364
>>1937364

>>1937364

figuring out how planets orbit the sun is pretty fucking simple compared to figuring out everything going on inside of you keeping alive to type out your inane drivel.

scientists do it this way because it WORKS this way

>>1937369
At my university the entire physics department is located inside the "math and science building" which also houses the entire departments for math, comp sci, and astronomy. Meanwhile chemistry gets it's own two building complex (each about 6 or 8 stories IIRC). And then biology gets half of the entire fucking campus with a MASSIVE multi-building research complex, another building devoted entirely to academics, another two large buildings devoted entirely to public health, another large building for the med school, a few primate research centers, and then the CDC takes off where the biology portion of the campus ends.

Yeah, physicsfags be jelly.

>>1937378
>hough the basic tenets of Greek geocentrism were established by the time of Aristotle, the details of his system did not become standard. This honor was reserved for the Ptolemaic system, espoused by the Hellenistic astronomer Claudius Ptolemaeus in the 2nd century AD. His main astronomical book, the Almagest, was the culmination of centuries of work by Hellenic, Hellenistic and Babylonian astronomers; it was accepted for over a millennium as the correct cosmological model by European and Islamic astronomers. Because of its influence, the Ptolemaic system is sometimes considered identical with the geocentric model.

>The notion that the Earth revolves around the Sun was first proposed in the 3rd century BC by Aristarchus of Samos. However, it was not until the 16th century that a fully predictive mathematical model of a heliocentric system was presented, by the Renaissance mathematician and astronomer Nicolaus Copernicus, leading to the Copernican Revolution. In the following century, this model was elaborated and expanded by Johannes Kepler and supporting observations made using a telescope were presented by Galileo Galilei.

1300 fucking years you fag.

>>1937396

Pop quiz hotshot: which division is pulling in the most money from grants and patents?

>>1937402
Easily the bio department retard. Why else do you think the university pours so much money into it?

>>1937419

>>1937419
because all other natural sciences are for aspies that need a solid mathematic solution to confirm if their boring shit, that nobody gives a fuck about, is valid

>>1937448
i agree with this except with applied math. the rest of the fields in math could go fuck themselves in their fucking games. Seriously, we are paying this guys to fucking solve logical puzzles fuch them.

well said OP
deniers should look at this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3E25jgPgmzk

because theres a lot of troll physics threads going on

Molecular biology=win,Organismic=Fail. also: ITT:People who haven't gotten past grade 10 Bio. sit in during a Biochemistry lecture faggots

math biology is best biology