/sci/ - Science & Math

Transgender freaks need to be shot dead for denfowlment.

they will all burn in hell

>>1841200
I thought Hell was a stimulant of our imaginations?

trannies are pretty cool gulys

They chop off their penis and doesn't afraid of stuffing another penis in their inverted penis.

A transgendered person is someone who identifies with the opposite sex. This isn't the same thing as the "brain in the wrong body" straw-man that bigots like to use.

The cause of transgenderism is rather irrelevant. People don't commit suicide because they can't handle life in their body or go through extensive surgery for something that "isn't real".

Of course it exists. Why would you even question that? There are many factors that contribute to pre- and post natal brain development and sexual asymmetries therein. They can't go right all the time...
>>1841197
>>1841200
Herpety-derp

>>1841211
"Hell is other people."

>>1841226
Because I was told by my Christian science teacher that there is proof that transgender individuals are mentally suck and AREN'T the gender they identify with because they can't know what the other gender deals with.

>>1841241
What the fuck is Christian science?

The sociological concept of "gender" is a load of sexist nonsense.
Sure there are differences between the sexes, but none of these differences are absolute.

Even if there was a male with a brain exactly like that of the average female, there is absolutely no reason to assume that that male would never come to terms with the fact that he is a male and would instead wish he was a female.

Wishing you were the opposite sex is a mental illness (known as gender identity disorder). But you cannot change the sex you are born with.

Not only do the attributes of a given sex not absolute, they also differ greatly with culture and over evolutionary time (wearing skirts is only feminine because we decided so). Besides, a butch lesbia is no less of a female than the most feminine bitch you can think of.

The truth is that even though there ARE differences between the sexes,

1.humans are capable of using logic to over-ride inborn tendencies,
and 2. We need to move AWAY from a society that enforces gender roles, even if some do naturally form, for the sake of fairness and equality.

When i refer to a male as a "man" i am referring to his "Sex" but i may call it "gender" because the word sex is linked to sexual intercourse and sexual activity. The psuedoscience of sociology has changed the meaning of the word "gender" to suit themselves" and their sexist pc agenda.

>>1841241
>Christian science teacher
What?

I'm going to ignore that for a second and pretend you didn't say that.

There are big similarities in the brains of transgender people and those of the genetically opposite sex. In a sense they are that sex but haven't got the body to match it. Not knowing what the other gender deals with is irrelevant because experience doesn't strictly determine perception.

>>1841259
Someone is a little retard.

>>1841241
And if we think they are neither the gender their biological body presents, what are they, then? Is being a woman (in the case of mtf transsexuals) not being man? In other words, is femininity only lack of masculinity, or the other way around? If there cannot exist transsexuals, what kind of gender-identity should these people who don't feel their identity matching with their bodies, be given?

>>1841278

The gender of their chromosones

>>1841259
What a load of bull. Try passing through life pretending for every goddamn second to be something that disgusts you to no end.

Or just imagine waking up next morning with a pair of boobs and a vagina. Sure, you'd have fun the first couple of hours .. but then: go to work, enjoy social activities, ..

>>1841282
>Try passing through life pretending for every goddamn second to be something that disgusts you to no end.

>disgusts you to no end.

This is a mental illness. Normal people are not disgusted by the opposite gender.

I am a heterosexual male. If i was born with my brain structure but with XX chromosones i'd be a female. I may be butch as fuck, but i'd be happy with who i am rather than wishing i was something else.

>>1841292
Define "normal"

>>1841292
No. You don't.

You're not doing it right.

Also, these people aren't disgusted by the opposite sex per se, they are disgusted to be stuck in their body. You talk big, but again, if you'd wake up next morning as a woman, you'd fucking end your miserable existence within two weeks ..

I don't think it's a neurological or genetic thing. But seriously, does it matter why someone wants to be a woman? Is there any reason we shouldn't let them? What's it to you if someone wants to be called "she" instead of he?

>>1841292
>opinion

>>1841259
Transsexual experience at its barest isn't a conflict between a persons gender and the standards of surrounding society. Transsexual experience is a conflict between the gender the person identifies with and his biological sex. Society with its standards might work to make the conflict more apparent and add to the experience of conflict, but isn't the ultimate cause. Even outside of any human-contact and therefore in lack of social standards for gender, transsexual person would feel conflict between his/her identified gender and the persons biological sex.

>>1841313
Proof or get the fuck out of here.

>>1841310
Because that is not how God intended.

>>1841260
>There are big similarities in the brains of transgender people and those of the genetically opposite sex. In a sense they are that sex but haven't got the body to match it.

This doesn't make them the gender they are not.
There are huge simmilarities between the brains of homosexuals and those of the opposite sex. Yet homosexuals do not wish they were the opposite sex.

Another thing you have to factor in is synaptic plasticity and synaptic pruning. Essentially, how you use your brain can affect it's development. For example taxi drivers have been proven to have much larger hippocampus than the average person. It has even been shown to enlargen!!!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/677048.stm

Another example;

Musicians are known to have a bigger corpus colassum (the part of the brain that joins the two hemispheres). But wait!!!!
Don't females have larger corpus collassums than males!!!!

Holy fuck, if we wanted to spin this for a scientifically illiterate public we could say that male musicians have more female brains than the average female.
Let's campaign to have male musicians recognised as females and ignore the genetic truth of the matter.

\o/!

>>1841334
And what difference does that make to a person who feels he/she is in the wrong body?

>>1841334 Yet homosexuals do not wish they were the opposite sex.
>> homosexuals .. opposite sex.
>> sexuals sex

This is a thread about transGENDERism dipshit. Stop embarrassing yourself and learn the difference between sex and gender.

>>1841310

Yes. A rationalist (in particular a scientist) should never lie to avoid hurting people. If they can't deal with the truth then tough shit on them i supposse.

XX-female
XY-male
some other fucked up combination- not neccesarily either.

I would have no problems declaring an XY person who "looks female" as MALE
and an XX person who "looks male" as FEMALE.
Scientific truth people.

>>1841334
>rationalist

Do you live in Texas?

>>1841281
It seems that the previous attempts at changing the persons experience of their gender to match their biological sex, instead of fixing their biological sex, to the extent it is possible, to match their experienced gender, has not been anywhere near as effective. Thus it seems the persons experience of their gender cannot be changed in case of true transsexualism, you could as well take a biological male who identifies as male and tell them they are female, you might be able to do it, but it's more like brainwashing than treatment of the original problem.
>>1841340
Exactly. Transsexualism may be a form of mental disease (which it isn't currently classified as), but treatment by trying to reverse the persons experience, as I mentioned above, has seldom been successful form of treatment, whereas fixing the body to match the person experience removes most symptoms (like depression) of transsexualism.

>>1841334
>This doesn't make them the gender they are not.
I never implied that, I meant to say they perceive themselves as of the opposite sex. Which they do.
>Another thing you have to factor in is synaptic plasticity and synaptic pruning
You're telling me? I'm a neuroscientist. The only thing you show is that brain structures change though behavior. The thing you miss is that changes in brain structure consequentially lead to behavioral changes. Those musicians might deviate on feminine aspects such as interhemipheric communication and the resulting increase in word use (as observed in females). A musitian might not see himself as female, but the difference is that in transgender people there are larger than single structure diffences, and that these differences are observable early in life and form a <span class="math">{\bf causal}[/spoiler] relationship with sex identity.

>>1841351

the psuedoscience of sociology has hijacked the word "gender" for their own sexist pc agenda. In common useage the word "gender" means exactly the same as the word "sex", and is in fact preferable because the word "gender" is not also a word for sexual intercourse.

>>1841374
No, the two words were never the same.

>>1841355
If a biological male (besides the chromosomes) born with functioning male genitalia etc. and who also identifies as male (is not transsexual), bore the female chromosomes, would you still call them female? I think this kind of "chromosomes freaks" actually exist as well, can someone confirm this? In case of this kind of people, are chromosomes really the final deciding factor on how a person should be received in society, and how he/she is allowed to identify themselves?

>Exactly. Transsexualism may be a form of mental disease (which it isn't currently classified as), but treatment by trying to reverse the persons experience, as I mentioned above, has seldom been successful form of treatment, whereas fixing the body to match the person experience removes most symptoms (like depression) of transsexualism.

I'm not arguing against "sex change" operations, people should be free to do whatever they want (if they're not harming anyone else). But don't expect people to ignore the truth and start reffering to them as a sex they are not.

>>1841374 sexist pc agenda.
I am confuse??
How can something in 2010 be both sexist and politically correct?
I think you're just making things up.

>>1841389
As I said post >>1841384
Is this "truth" you refer to the chromosomes? Chromosomes cannot be told by persons outer appearance, and neither do they necessarily affect their personality, so what say do they have in when defining persons gender and how they should be received in society? Chromosomes seem to be the last argument when arguing that transsexuals are not in fact the gender they identify with. Even if they were not, is it necessary to not allow them to live as the gender they identify with, and receive them as the gender they identify with, only if they bear the chromosomes of wrong gender that are not perceivable not have any effect in their everyday lives.

>>1841384
>If a biological male (besides the chromosomes) born with functioning male genitalia etc. and who also identifies as male (is not transsexual), bore the female chromosomes, would you still call them female? I think this kind of "chromosomes freaks" actually exist as well, can someone confirm this? In case of this kind of people, are chromosomes really the final deciding factor on how a person should be received in society, and how he/she is allowed to identify themselves?

Yes i would.

>recieved in society.

Well i'm completely against all forms of sexism. I suppose on a casual level the person could easily pretend to be male and get away with it. It wouldn't be the end of the world, but if i found out the truth don't expect me to ignore it.
>>1841364
>and that these differences are observable early in life

sauce plz?

and btw, it still doesn't change the truth of their sex, which is in their chromosones.

>>1841355
>Yes. A rationalist (in particular a scientist) should never lie to avoid hurting people. If they can't deal with the truth then tough shit on them i supposse.
>Scientific truth people.
Nice way of showing you're neither rational nor a scientist.

>>1841398

because the PC agenda is not a rational set of non-contradictory ideas, it's just about offending as little people as possible.

I want to be a Female, but I will be always attracted to other Females

does this make me a Lesbian in the wrong body?

>>1841389
No one is asking you to refer to transgendered people as the sex they are not. This is about gender not sex, why is this a difficult concept for you.

>>1841403
Again, just by what chromosomes a person has, does it really matter as much as to have, you for example, "not ignore the truth"? The truth here would only be that they were born in the biological body that does not match the gender they identify with, which is comparable to being born crippled to some extent. The crippled person as well as transsexual may have help to fix problems present in their body to lead normal lives, this does not change the fact they were born as they were. But why should this be so big of a deal for people so that they would treat this person and receive them differently from how they appear and act by some "truth" alone?

>>1841409
Eddie Izzard is a male lesbian.

Unfortunate, he's a sexy beast.

>>1841409
Wanting to be a female and feeling you are, in fact, a female but just in wrong body are different things. I take it that you meant you want to have female body that would match your experience of your gender.

And yes, that would make you trans-female lesbian.

>>1841417

When someone is officially recognised as "male", it is their sex not some pseudoscientific and non-quantifiable notion of "gender".

Anything other than accepting "male" and "female" as reffering merely to biological sex is an affront to modern egalitarian non-discriminational values.
By saying that "male" and "female" should refer to anything other than genotype you are saying that you want to live in a sexist society.

And I'm done.

>>1841197
so should be faggots

>>1841430

Are you a troll?

>>1841430
Why even refer to someone by their biological sex when biology doesn't matter much in everyday society?

>>1841423
Concept "male lesbian" is based on foul logic. Female interested in females is a lesbian, male interested in females is a heterosexual. You can, however, be trans-female (transsexual female born in male body but identifies as female and possibly has had her body fixed) interested in females, in which case you would be lesbian, but instead of more common "biologically born female" interested in females, you would be "biologically born male -female" interested in females.

>>1841430
You're still labeling someone as male and female, you sexist whore.

>>1841403
>sauce plz?
Combine these articles.

http://www.pnas.org/content/84/7/2087.abstract

http://www.pnas.org/content/86/12/4766.full.pdf

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6SYW-4859RX9-57&_user=10&_cove
rDate=07%2F16%2F1991&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_origin=search&_sort=d&_
docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1482779734&_rerunOrigin=google&_acct=C000050221&_
version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=8d30f98ac014fd39538d5cec6b2fb81e&searchtype=a

http://www.iiav.nl/ezines/web/IJT/97-03/numbers/symposion/ijtc0106.htm

>and btw, it still doesn't change the truth of their sex, which is in their chromosones.
We were talking about their sex <span class="math">identity[/spoiler]. No one is disputing their external phenotype.

>>1841439
What if a transwoman hasn't transitioned yet but is interested in males. Being a woman inside of a man's body makes them a male lesbian, you idiot.

>>1841403
Chromosomes don't really matter in everyday life, sis.

When was the last time you say a woman and contested what chromosomes she had?

>>1841447
Woman inside a mans body who is interested in males is heterosexual by sexual orientation.

Try again.

this thread is semantics

Not entirely related, but I think you guys might be interested in this.

I want to build a machine, or collective of machines that wander around and brutally rape people that make sexist comments.

I also want one that attaches Jew-noses to Nazis, one that steals money from Democrats and gives it to African peasants, and one that changes the price tags on things to ridiculously high levels when Republicans enter. Imagine the world with my unstoppable army of robots just going around doing weird shit.

>>1841447
As the stage of transsexual persons transition has nothing to do with their gender identity and the sex the person in possession of that identity is sexually interested in.

Physical condition/biological gender =/= mental condition/gender identity

>>1841430
This is a hermaphrodite. She is biologically neither male nor female: ambiguous sex. This particular individual chooses to identify as female: female gender.

Can you understand now why we don't consider sex to define gender. By your fucking inhumane definition of gender someone like this wouldn't be allowed to wear a dress or a suit; they'd have to invent some ambiguous gender role for their ambiguous biological sex.

>>1841466
wat

>>1841472
fuck that's thing is hideous

>>1841472
That's moronic. You can't base an entire philosophy / sociology / anthropology of sex and gender on a handful of biological freaks.
The fact is that -- apart from a handful of such sports -- most people identify their gender and their sex the same way. A small fraction engage in homosexual acts, but they aren't confused about what the sexes are or which one they are.

>>1841444
finally, we have a winrar

>>1841488
>You can't base an entire philosophy / sociology / anthropology of sex and gender on a handful of biological freaks.

Uhh, they exist, they're people, this is why gender and sex are separate, moron. You're probably just mad that you got told or a troll.

>>1841498
This was Freud's error, too: to try to deduce how normal psychology works from a handful of case studies of people with mental disorders.
It won't work, since it ignores 99.99% of the available evidence. It isn't even useful.

>>1841517
>keeps ignoring the cited articles by >>1841444

>>1841488 confused about what the sexes

I've never met a transgendered person that is confused about what a penis and vagina are, but you sir are the one confused about what gender is.

>>1841517
Yet you ignore the links posted in this thread.

>>1841520
>>1841575

Those links were unrelated and we're not discussing penis melting that Jews do, morons.

not a single trap photo in this thread.

/sci/, i am proud.

>>1841600
I'm disappointed, personally.

>>1841583
Unrelated? Are you fucking kidding me? The last link is from the international journal of transgenderism for fuck's sake. The first three describe how hormonal intervention can affect neuronal sex differentiation.

>>1841647
Keep making unproved claims.

Wow...there sure are a bunch of people in here who have no idea what they're talking about.

>>1841670

Which side?

>>1841656
>unproved claims.
You haven't even bothered to read the articles you dumb shit.

>>1841671

Anti.

>>1841675
And who are the Anti-people?

The ones who support transfreaks?

LET'S DO THE TIME WARP AGAIN

>>1841697
No, the ones who deny the phenomenon.

>>1841702
What phenomenon?

The way I figure it, .05% to .1% of the human population exhibits what could be classified as transgender behavior. That puts the number of people worldwide at somewhere between 13 and 20 million, with the bulk of those living in India and China. That also means that one in every 1k to 2k people is transgender. This is only a ballpark. There is likely to more than that, given how quickly transpeople are derided by the general population and how much easier it is for somebody to just suffer in silence than deal with other people's bigotry.

a transgender people would never know they "supposed" to have been a woman if they never seen a woman before. its jus sickos with fetishes

>>1841740

How do you figure?

>>1841730
Trangenderism

>>1841744
because gender is at random, it's not like you can pick or choose female or male

If someone could be born the wrong gender.

Are there such people who feel like they never grew up or are children trapped in an adult body?

>>1841740
If transsexual female person had never seen biological woman before, she might feel her male-body to be simply "wrong", and somehow feel detached from, or disgusted by it, the experience likely varies between individuals. She couldn't tell what exactly is wrong if she wasn't aware of biological females or differences between sexes at the first place, but likely the problem, in case of true transsexualism, would still be present.

>>1841751
>>1841740

Oh look, another tripfag troll.

>>1841740
Are you implying a transgendered male living in an exclusively male society will not feel as though they don't fit into their gender role?

>>1841753
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infantilism_(physiological_disorder)

>>1841740
And what kind of fetish potentially leads to depression, social seclusion, and even death by suicide? One that needs treatment, and is as such, a medical condition and not a fetish.

>>1841757
Apparently >>1841740 implied exactly this, read this >>1841754

>>1841763
Or maybe we should allow them the right to commit suicide.

Solves the problem fairly well.

>>1841757
It might be just that I read wrong, but transgendered male is a person who was born into biological body of a female, but identifies as male.

If such person lived in male-exclusive society, he would very likely find his body to be wrong, which feeling would be bolstered by the presence of biological men.

>>1841774
We could also encourage all people who were born crippled to commit suicides by this logic. Are you a neo-nazi?

>>1841785
>We could also encourage all people who were born crippled to commit suicides by this logic.

I love how you think they're people.

Guy who thinks he's a girl here.

I have no sex drive towards women. I haven't the slightest desire to put my penis in a vagina at all.

The thought of hot cum being pumped into my vagina? Instant boner.

I think some wires are crossed or something.

What exactly is this suppose to accomplish? Supposedly we find out what causes transsexualism, now what? Find a cure for it and accept that it is a defect, a disease? Stop the general publics negative opinion of transsexuals? The latter won't be possible as it is human nature to hate abnormality. Or give the transsexuals an excuse to justify their behavior?

>>1841834
transsexualism is not the same thing as transgenderism.

>>1841824
Hurr durr troll harder.

>>1841834
We find out what causes transsexualism, and cure it one way or another: fix their biological bodies to match their gender identity as well as possible with current technology to help them live normal lives, or by all means, go ahead and try to reverse their experience of their gender, likely works just as good as convincing biological "normal" person he/she's the opposite gender (might be able to do it, but it's brainwashing rather than fixing the problem itself). Goal is to understand the phenomena and use that knowledge to help people live happy balanced lives whatever the solution, isn't that the core of medical research and such?

>>1841834 The latter won't be possible as it is human nature to hate abnormality.

Its plenty possible to use logic and reasoning to overcome human nature. Its human nature to believe in various supernatural causes for unexplained phenomenon, but we scientists have gotten past that. I also disagree with the assumption bigotry is part of human nature.

>>1841834
>The latter won't be possible as it is human nature to hate abnormality.

My face when you actually believe this.

>>1841856
>>1841857

Tells you quite a bit about how much faith i have in humanity doesn't it?

>>1841924
No-ones interested.

>>1841944

>Missing the point

>>1841958
Why don't you point me to the point then, good Anon? Who is interested in his personal views regarding the state of humanity in a thread meant to discuss transsexualism?

>>1841961

It was primarily directed toward >>1841857 who seems to have trouble grasping that it is my opinion on the matter, as it is not something that have a clear cut answer to.

>>1841972
Thank you. My opinion differs from yours, but that's life.

>>1841979

I concur.

>>1841988
Looks like humans are able to differ and be cool about it after all?

>>1841997

Or we can blow each other to high hell.

>>1842008
If human was given a choice, which would he pick if results were the same? Is human a being of good will or ill will at the end of the day? Now we're going deeper... But not related to the thread so lets get back to trans-people shall we? :)