/sci/ - Science & Math

Awesome!
This is gonna be a big week! I'm calling Loebsack again to make sure he's still opposing the House bill.
Also, for those who haven't read it yet, the full text of both bills can be found here:
Senate Bill: http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=s111-3729
House Bill: http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=h111-5781

Whats going on on the inside of outer space now?

Bump

>>1749442
asteroids

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_d-gs0WoUw&hd=1

>>1749442

Not much. IKAROS is quietly fluttering somewhere out there, Cassini is still revolving around Saturn, and New Horizons... Has it performed the slingshot around Jupiter? Or is it still going there?

Daily dose.

Gentlemen, we are making head way, thanks to you and our many allies on the matter, HR.5781 has been kicked off the House calendar for this week:
>at least in part due to a significant number of constituent calls late last week
http://www.space-access.org/

this is not the time to let up, we can not rest till it is gone, but your actions are changing the course. Hold strong!

>>1749763
I'm wondering if there would be a point in writing my representative a second time now; I wrote about a month ago.

>>1749869

Just to remind them, sure, but you don't want to sound annoying. As long as you don't start stalking them I'd say go ahead.

What? So they can continue sending Jews to the moon?

>>1749869
Do it, it appears they somewhat understand the resistance now, at this point the person who reads your letter will likely be better able to classify what you are talking about (then it was a vague space spending thing they didn’t have a checkbox for, now they will). Keep the pressure up, the bolder is beginning to move.

>>1749894
>implying jews don't have their own secret saucer moon transport.

Emailed my representative a couple of weeks ago

got an email back

>>1749763
Fucking awesome!

>>1749869
Don't be afraid to make a follow-up call to your Rep's office. I called mine again this morning.

threads like these restore my faith in humanity, if only just a little bit

I'm for the House bill. Fuck space. We don't have the technology in place to make anything worthwhile yet. Fund programs ON EARTH.

>>1750027
My god, you're right! How could we have been so blind! Truly you are a genius among cretins! How selfish of us to even suggest funding NASA while there are still starving children in Africa and unemployed white trash in trailer parks in need of welfare!
Can you ever forgive our selfish behavior?

Well, I just wrote my rep another time, I hope she listens.

>>1750027
Err...

You're both a troll and a moron.

Because the only difference between the House and Senate bill is what the money is spent on.

So voicing your support for the house bill because you think we shouldn't spend money on space is... I mean, what I'm getting at here is you're dumb.

>>1750914
$6 Billion vs $164 Million

>>1748350
>>NASA deserves better than that.
It really, really doesn't. I wish people would know a little bit more about the things they consider so great. NASA has such a checkered history I'm surprised it still a functioning organization.

>>1751110
well imagine what shit is going to get done with 164 million.

....

exactly..

>>1750914
>the only difference between the House and Senate bill is what the money is spent on.
That's the point - the Senate bill spends the money on new tech, new LVs, and a new commercial industry. The House bill spends everything on continuing the Constellation program... well, minus developing a lander or a permanent outpost or any of the other shit that was used to justify Constellation in the first place.

>>1751096
Actually it's $2.6 billion vs $164 million, but the point remains.

I say we take all the money in America, invest it in space ships and leave this shit hole. Also we can nuke other countries as we're leaving. Not like they can follow us and make us pay.

Hey guys, spent some time after classes running a little solo op. Posted a bunch of these around my campus, especially in the physics and astronomy building.

Not much but I figure every bit helps.

>>1751096
No, it's $6 billion vs $6 billion

The amount is the same in both, but the house bill gives basically nothing to commercial development.

That is the big difference and that is why people are against it, because it's getting to be rather obvious right now that NASA and the government simply cannot handle space endeavors effectively if only due to politics.

bump

>>1751460
seriously dude, you just went UBERGEEK on campus

fucking awesome: i bow down

>>1748350
Uh, it doesn't sound like the Senate bill does anything to get us back to the moon. House bill sounds better. What private company is building a lunar lander?

>>1751819
Armadillo Aerospace is working on the landing/propulsion system. So is IIRC Boeing.

>>1751819
That's the whole fucking point.

With plans for a lander moving at a snail's pace and the concept of a lunar outpost already on the cutting board, they've already eliminated most of the justification for the Constellation Program. It's gonna be the same fucking 2-man sorties we did during Apollo now (less than that if they drop the lander as well). Best case scenario for the House plan is 20-25 years from now we land, collect a few rocks, plant a flag or two, and then Congress sees the public is more interested in the latest reality show and they pull the plug. Then we're back where we were 40 years ago. Congratu-fucking-lations!

It's time to do something different, go somewhere we haven't already been.

>>1753009
Go somewhere we haven't been before? What does that mean? The moon is where we should be going. 20-25 years sucks, but it's better than never.

>>1753013

>The moon

>This is what knuckle dragging mouth breathing republicans actually think

Enjoy sucking Fox News' cock, you fucking redneck.

>>1753013
Going to the Moon made sense back in '04 when the plan was to establish permanent outposts. That would have been a precursor to eventually establishing full blown colonies.

That's not going to happen anymore. Not under the House plan, not under Constellation.

bump

>>1751811
Don't go thanking me yet, let's see if they're even still up in a couple days.

>>1753130
Wow. Liberals hate the moon now? WTF?

>>1753305
That's exactly what has to happen. Whatever plan gets closer to that is the plan that should be adopted. It can be expanded later, when there's a leadership willing to commit more resources. The plan that doesn't include any lunar efforts at all should be rejected in favor of the one that does.

>>1751460

You have no idea how much I love you.

>>1754946
>It can be expanded later, when there's a leadership willing to commit more resources.
I told myself bullshit like that all the time back when I supported Constellation.

An unmanned mission gets cut, "it's okay, we'll do that mission later."
Griffin cuts space research by 25% across the board, "it's okay, we'll do research later."
Plans for an actual outpost get dropped, "it's okay, we'll do it later."
Funding for Altair gets cut, "it's okay, we'll do it later."
Work on Ares V is postponed, "it's okay, we'll do it later."

Eventually you stop and realize that you're just kidding yourself. Constellation isn't going anywhere, hasn't been for a long time now. You're naive if you think it's going to miraculously turn around with something as simple as a different administration, the damage has already been done.

>>1753013
I'd agree if the plan was to do anything more than plant another flag, but it's not.

bump

I already contacted my rep. Ralph Hall's got your back.

>>1755967
nice work!

bumps!

>>1755128
Yep, the only way we'll get back to the moon is if someone fucking funds it. However, until then, it's far better to fund technology to get as far as we can with the level of willingness to fund that we have. Pissing away money on amateur rocketry is fail.

>>1757506
Rooting for the House bill and Constellation is like rooting for your horse to still win when it's two laps behind.
Yeah, there's a chance that it might suddenly come back from behind and win the race... but it ain't fuckin' likely.
Doesn't matter if you change the jockey, you're still two laps behind. Better to keep the rider and go with a better horse.

>>1757796
Still better than giving up. Either that or move to China or Russia.

>>1757506
>Pissing away money on amateur rocketry is fail.
yes, that's why we support canceling Constellation and instead going with private industry.

>>1757811
It's not giving up, it's trying something different.

What do I think would be the best bill

cancel ares1 for the Falcon 9

make a moon base the top priority and collaborate with Bigelow aerospace to get better habitats

Properly fund NASA the extra 3 billion so we don't cut the science budget

Instead of building the Ares5 work with spaceX to create the FalonXX for the heavy lift(SpaceX makes things cheaper)

Now we have moon bases and a strong commercial industry

>>1757858

******

>>1757858
We need to stop getting so hung up on 'destination' and focus more on 'capability'.

Just look at what's happened with Constellation, its supporters are so obsessed with the goal of returning to the Moon that they've ignored all the flaws with the plan to actually reach it and even how much of that plan has actually been dropped.

Worry less about the destination and focus on securing cheap access to space through several LVs (both public and commercial, not just one or the other). Once you have the capability, planning a program built around a specific destination becomes much easier.

Saw some of the astro-majors reading one of my fliers. Feels good man.

Also, if you guys want to post your own, I'd be happy to upload a copy or something.

bump

>>1758047
Post it. Now.

bump

>>1758047
Post it, I'd be happy to put them up on my campus.

>>1758047
Post it, godammit

Here you go.
http://rapidshare.com/files/419288495/no-on-hr5781.pdf

>>1759456
Thanks, I plan on posting this all over my school.

>>1759522
Points to anyone who posts pics of fliers around their school/campus. Bonus points to anyone who makes their own flier.

>>1759522
Points to anyone who posts pics of fliers around their school/campus. Bonus points to anyone who makes their own flier

I would but I doubt [CENSORED] kids are interested in some space agency in some foreign country.

bump

>>1757858
> make a moon base the top priority
Ain't gonna happen. The cost is just far too high. Also, the risk of any base getting trashed by a micro-meteorite (there's a reason the lunar surface has the consistency of talcum powder).

bump

Any news yet on when the bills will go to the floor?

What does that red thing on the logo represent?

>>1762291
Probably before the end of next week.

>What does that red thing on the logo represent?
For Great Justice

Anyone else notice that the Senate's HLV proposal sounds an awful lot like DIRECT?

>>1759456
Whoever posts this at their campus is a hero in my book.

>>1759456
Thanks

bump for the future of the human species

Yes on 5781

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jnmpx4CJyco

>>1764300
Go fuck yourself.

>>1764331

ITT: People who aren't involved in the space program thinking they know whats best for it.

>>1764300
does it tell you in that video that ares1 costs 1.5 bil to launch once

it launches 24,000 kg into LEO

Falon 9 heavy costs 78 million

carries 32,00 to LEO

The commercial industry is the future

>>1764300
Taken directly from the ad:
"Promises were made"
>we cannot cede our leadership in space... that's why I'm going to close the gap, ensure our space program doesn't suffer when the shuttle goes out of service, we may extend an additional shuttle launch...
The Senate bill will add an additional shuttle launch and the support of commercial spaceflight will ensure American-made LVs are available soon enough to minimize the gap after the shuttle's retirement.

>we're continuing to support NASA funding by speeding development of the shuttle's successor...
Which the Senate's plan will do by backing a replacement that can be finished in five years instead of the eight or nine it will take to get Ares I flying.

>but more broadly we need a vision for the next stage of space exploration...
Letting commercial spaceflight build serious infrastructure in orbit while NASA and our international partners are free to focus on developing the technology needed for manned missions to deep space, asteroids, and eventually the moons and surface of Mars. Sounds like a vision to me.

bump

I hope nasa supports companies like bigelow aerospace

>>1764641
NASA's been pitching the idea of adding BA modules to the ISS. They'll probably add a couple in a few years once the 330s are finished. A couple of those and you could double the station's crew size.

Just emailed all three Florida representatives

>>1764762

>>1764762
>Implying Florida's representatives aren't already going to have a vested interest in funding NASA

I just sent my Senators (New Jersey) this short message.

Dear Senator Frank R. Lautenberg,

It has come to my attention that the House wishes to pass its version of a NASA funding bill that will cut funding on scientific research vital to commercial development of space flight. I may not have been as privileged as you have to witness the glorious landing of the moon, but even I am driven to pursue my dreams when reminded of that monumental occasion.

The Senate version, S.3729, authorizes a much more needed funding in the right places of NASA by discontinuing the inefficient Constellation program and seeking more innovative concepts and plans. With this, more jobs will open in a field that America can be proud to pioneer once again. It has been my dream to see us as a country, a nation, and as a unified humanity reach and strive for great heights.

No other endeavor amounts to the benefits of funding the right bill. Not only is there a vast supply of resources and benefits awaiting beyond our Moon, but that kind of mission is what America needs to truly regain its hope and strength. To rise up from our struggles and achieve a feat greater than us all.

What do you think? Nationalistic enough?

>>1765032
>What do you think? Nationalistic enough?

As a Bald Eagle waving an American flag over a baseball team eating apple pies. Nice work. I may send my rep something to that effect.

Many people in the world need my help. I'd prefer to stick to people that can't feed themselves instead of people that can't get to Mars.

>>1765072

Thanks, lol I wish there was a more efficient way to e-mail these guys. Something like a "select all representatives" rather than browsing all of their personal websites.

>>1765032
This. This right here. This is what I mean when I say: "America needs to build something new to be proud of."

>>1765073
Ah yes, the ol' "fix all our problems 'down here' before spending money 'up there' " slogan. Great for bumper stickers, not so much for reality. The ridiculous notion that we should cut the insignificant amount of spending that goes to space exploration to feed starving children in Africa is just that - ridiculous.

>>1765158
Who said anything about Africa? There are plenty of starving people in America.

>>1765158

Agreed, space exploration is a trickle in the bucket compared to military spending and other useless unnecessary international crap. Hell most of the military functions and depends on shit invented and discovered during the space race for fuck's sake.

pic related btw, do you realize how many millions of dollars were involved in that photograph?!

called my congressman

hope he votes yes on S. 3729

bump

>>1765169
There are no starving people in America. The greatest health risk to american poor people is obesity.

>>1765032
>I may not have been as privileged as you have to witness the glorious landing of the moon
HOLY FUCK, THE MOON LANDED? WHEN THE FUCK DID THIS HAPPEN?

Why would any rational scientifically-minded person want to cancel what's left of our efforts to get back to the moon. Fuck that. We don't need to fund orbit ferries. We need to fund something serious.

>>1765994
You don't want to try orbit ferries and refueling in space with linear-accelerator-launched fuel tanks to go to other places?

>>1766624
Who is saying that a linear-accelerator-launched orbital object is possible?

>>1766624
Firing a container full of fuel to orbital insertion velocity out of a mass driver will have a result hilariously at odds with the one you're imagining.

>>1766662
As long as it's done on the 4th of July at night, it will be cool.

>>1765994
>Why would any rational scientifically-minded person want to cancel what's left of our efforts to get back to the moon.
Because any rational scientifically-minded person who's smart enough not to be suckered in by all the sparklers and flag-waving would notice that all the major aspects of Constellation's plan to return to the Moon are either years behind schedule, postponed indefinitely, or canceled outright.
Ares I? 8-9 years from flying.
Ares V? Most development is postponed until Ares I is finished.
Altair? No funding for developing a lander.
A permanent outpost? No funding for developing an outpost.

Simply put, under the House bill, the best we get out of Constellation is circumlunar orbits in 20 years. No landing. No outpost.

>>1765994
Trickle-funding a bloated project(while starving all other projects) that will have us land on the moon(and do nothing there) by the time the Peoples Chinese Republic of Space will be building space elevator for their mars colony is something for "rational scientifically-minded person"

>cut spending to Department of Defense by 50%, retreat from all places where we shouldn't fucking be (Iraq, Afghanistan, everywhere else we have troops stationed just to have someone stationed there)
>fund heavily into bringing manufacturing base back to US, high speed rail system across all major corridors, try to get space elevator/better and cheaper rockets
>fund asteroid mining to get operations up and running
>?????????
>PROFIT
Anything wrong with this way of killing two birds with one stone? Well, technically three.

>>1765989
> no starving people in America
hahaha... oh wow

>>1766726
That's why Constellation needs more funding, not less. You're making no sense.

>>1766819

>>1766814
mfw every single thing you said is wrong, bad or harmful.

>>1766836
Mind explaining why?

>>1766814
if you insist.
> retreat from all places where we shouldn't fucking be (Iraq, Afghanistan, everywhere else we have troops stationed just to have someone stationed there)
We have troops stationed all those places for reasons. If we withdrew troops from any of the places you're thinking about we would be forced to return within 5-15 years with HUGE numbers and much greater expense. Like it or not, the US is a major stabilizing force in critical places over the world, and our economic prosperity depends on maintaining that stability.
>fund heavily into bringing manufacturing base back to US,
Manufacturing jobs do not produce enough wealth to sustain anything close to the standard of living americans are accustomed to. We've worked hard to succeed in high tech areas, financial areas, and other high paying areas, and you want to turn us back into a nation of factory workers? WTF?
>high speed rail system across all major corridors,
The country is too big and too spread out for trains to make any sense, except for freight. It would be an economic black hole.
>try to get space elevator/better and cheaper rockets
space elevator is science fiction.
>fund asteroid mining to get operations up and running
Asteroids are too far to be cost effective with anything remotely resembling current technology. If you want to mine something in space, it would be the moon. Which is why we have to fund Constellation, or something else that has the moon as a goal.

>>1766879
>We have troops stationed all those places for reasons. If we withdrew troops from any of the places you're thinking about we would be forced to return within 5-15 years with HUGE numbers and much greater expense. Like it or not, the US is a major stabilizing force in critical places over the world, and our economic prosperity depends on maintaining that stability.
Sounds a bit more like your opinion than hard fact if you don't mind me saying.
>Manufacturing jobs do not produce enough wealth to sustain anything close to the standard of living americans are accustomed to. We've worked hard to succeed in high tech areas, financial areas, and other high paying areas, and you want to turn us back into a nation of factory workers? WTF?
Half the country being in service sector jobs /= good economic structure
>The country is too big and too spread out for trains to make any sense, except for freight. It would be an economic black hole.
Oil scarcity. Trucks. Trucks delivering everything. Said trucks run on diesel. It will be far worse if nothing is done.
>space elevator is science fiction.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/science/article4799369.ece
> Asteroids are too far to be cost effective with anything remotely resembling current technology. If you want to mine something in space, it would be the moon. Which is why we have to fund Constellation, or something else that has the moon as a goal.
I do believe it would be harder/less cost effective if we mined the moon, for you need rocket fuel to descend slowly onto the Moon's surface, and to blast off again. An asteroid's microgravity would be far easier to handle, and we have plenty of them whizzing around Earth.

>>1766893
Different anon here, I agree with what you're saying except
>Sounds a bit more like your opinion than hard fact if you don't mind me saying.

We are needed in those places. They actually have been pulling out of places where we aren't but almost all places where we are still stationed, we're still needed.

>>1766893
we have asteroids whizzing around the earth?

>>1766913
Why the shit are you still needed there?
It looks like you could of trained personnel and left the country a couple years ago.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7n4EDKUB9uo

>>1766879
>If we withdrew troops from any of the places you're thinking about we would be forced to return within 5-15 years with HUGE numbers and much greater expense.

A quick curb stomping with overwhelming force would be a hell of a lot cheaper than what you're doing now.

>>1766921
Not many large ones unless you go further out, but yes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near-Earth_object#Near-Earth_asteroids
Metallic asteroids tend to have a shitload of rare metals.

>>1766921
Lots of 'em.

>>1766923
I don't know which place you're talking about. We're in and around Taiwan, for example, because China still thinks it belongs to them, and without US firepower, they would be reasonably likely to try to reclaim it.

>>1766931
You mean in orbit? Wouldn't that make them moons?

>>1766934
I said from places where the US army is not needed. There's something like military bases in over 100 different countries. I sincerely doubt you need that many bases in those countries.
>>1766937
Ehh sort of, they're just referred to as near-Earth objects though.

>>1766946
Well, maybe you should tell us what specific presence you suggest getting rid of.

>>1766946
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near-Earth_object
It looks like they're all in solar orbit, which complicates things. I think the moon will always be easier, since it's not going anywhere.

>>1766957
A robot mining op doesn't mind riding the rock until the next pass. Required Delta-V is minimal if you're taking advantage of an asteroid's orbital motion

>>1766951
What I can't understand is how your country burns up 700 billion a year on 'Defense' while China spends 90 billion with a larger army and a fairly good military strength.

>>1766972
our navy is huge, the upkeep and repair/maintenance for so many ships is enormous, not to mention massive missile stockpiles, air force and black budget projects, black budget projects everywhere

>>1766972
because china doesn't police the world.

>>1766994
Start cutting the fuck down. You can't afford it.

>>1767012
i know that, but i'm a pleb, bro. i can't do much about it. do they know? probably. personally i'd draw down the military and fund space travel like the fist of the north star. in one thousand years, what will people remember? apollo, and any other significant space travels in this era. all these useless wars will be forgotten.

>>1767017
>in one thousand years, what will people remember? apollo, and any other significant space travels in this era. all these useless wars will be forgotten.
Pretty good chance over 50% of the people here surviving till then.

>>1767021
the children will be taught sputnik, apollo and perhaps the first moonbase. but will anybody teach the counter-insurgency actions of the last 50 years? doubtful, unless kiddies are being trained as strategists, or in a specialty history class.

>>1767021
and why do you say that, by the way?

>>1767030

>>1767057
i want an ansible :(

bump for the future of the human species

My reps office called back she said she would pass the message on

:)

sent 'em a mail.

>>1767170

You guys are pawns of some fucker who wants to get funding for his amateur rocketry.

>>1767251
Newspace is not amateur rocketry

Look up Copenhagen suborbitals if you want manned amateur rocketry

sigh...

again bump for the future of the human species

>>1748350
NASA IS A HOAX

>>1767503

>>1767510
Bump for humanz

Sage for supporting amateur rocketry over a space mission.

>>1766828
Constellation isn't GOING to get more funding. That's the fucking point.
The Augustine Commission said we'd need to increase NASA funding by $3 billion a year to keep Constellation on it's current timetable... Congress had to be dragged kicking and screaming just to agree to less than half of that. The extra $6 billion over five years in the Obama, House, and Senate plans is probably the biggest increase we'll see for years.

Constellation isn't going to get the funding it needs... that means more delays and more cuts. Altair and the Moon base have already been cut... meaning next on the list is the Ares V... then you're not going to the Moon at all.

If the House bill passes we'll spend the next decade building a LEO-only rocket and nothing more. They might as well rename it the Lockheed/ATK Jobs Bill

bump

Tell me if this is a good idea or not, NASA should start taking people up into orbit for a high price and maybe even have an expensive hotel that the rich can use, charge twice how much it costs to keep them up there and make tons of profit!!!

>>1768856
How bout we also have NASA suck my godamn cock, holy shit socks

bump

>>1761009
Why is the base above ground in the first place?

bump

Saw this in another building on campus today... only it's not one of the one's I hung up.
gertysmile.jpg

Saw this in another building on campus today... only it's not one of the ones I hung up.
gertysmile.jpg

bump

>scraps Constellation in favor of immediately starting work on a new HLV... the Senate passed this bill UNANIMOUSLY!

Pardon my ignorance but what is a HLV?

>>1769950
Bravo, good sir.

>>1770641
Heavy light launch vehicle

>>1771508
heavy lift launch vehicle

bump!

Interesting article:
http://www.space.com/news/nasa-officials-explain-future-space-plans-100917.html

SpaceX just set the launch date for their first COTS demo. Mark your calendars Oct 23

I emailed my senator; weekend and cbf to call. I hope we succeed.

Emailed and called my rep

There have been hints and reports that NASA is seriously considering a vertical lift vehicle to replace the shuttle.

That is, a vehicle that is simply meant to launch shit into space, not astronauts.

It would be far cheaper and would revolutionize the space industry.

This is one
http://www.universetoday.com/73536/nasa-considering-rail-gun-launch-system-to-the-stars/

But there is also research into a space craft that can take off a runway autonomously.

>>1774101
oh god I hope a real mass driver is made

suddenly my lunar cities aren't as ridiculous

>>1774101

Shit, I meant Horizontal lift vehicle.

It would take off like a plane.

pic unrelated.

There is always the possibility that they'll go with a scramjet model instead of an in-line lv.

But really... even if they don't... at this point anything is better than constellation.

boomp

bump

bomp

does anyone know when the vote is?

There's so many conflicting reports about the status of the debate. One minute I'm hearing the House and Senate are close to a resolution, the next they're saying they could reach an impasse and not pass any NASA bill at all (meaning another year stuck funding Constellation under the existing plan), and I've even heard rumors Obama plans to hold some big meeting between House and Senate members along with key space figures.

It'd be nice if we knew for sure what the fuck was going on.

bump

>>1776712
Probably this week

bump

bump