/sci/ - Science & Math

bump for neuroscience

to become neuroscientist you'll have to go through med school, residency and other things right?

so noone knows exactly how a neuron works?

More evidence for a creator.

>>1723959
No, only if you want to become a neurologist or neurosurgeon. Neuroscientists only do research, so they don't actually treat people.

>>1723962
We do pretty much know how a neuron works, the problem is when you put a bunch of neurons together and they all use different kinds of signaling chemicals and firing types, the system gets really complex really fast.

>>1723937
>mfw

>>1723964

>we don't understand it yet
>god did it

no

>>1723973
your face when what

>>1723981
lets not feed them

>>1723984
When everything in OP.

BRRAAAAAINS

Here's some deep brain stimulation for you to enjoy.

>>1723959

You can also study biology and get a masters degree in neuroscience aswell. Its what i am planning to do if everything works out.

>>1724005
this is relevant to my interests

Thought provoking stuff op, thanks.

Do you think mankind will ever achieve AI equal or greater than our own intelligence? Is it an inevitability?

>>1724025

I'm not OP, but I think we will... sorta. Whatever we create, I think it will be intelligent, but it won't be anything like us. It's just a guess, but I suspect that whatever we create it'll be WEIRD. Now if it's mind is generated by neurons...

>>1724025
I'm pretty sure it's inevitable given the speed of development in computational neuroscience and modeling. I have no idea what kind of timescale we're talking about though.

Question for OP:

If it were possible to make an exact replica of every single neuron in your brain in the exact same configuration all at the same time in a fraction of a nanosecond...would it be another person...would you exist in two places at once...?

Seritonin

GLUTAMATE

Dopamine

Gaba

>>1724038
Yes and no. It would be a different person in the sense that it's a different physical entity, however it would call itself whatever your name is, have the same memories, and given the (exact) same sensory input will respond in the same way that you would.

I think this story will be much to your liking:
http://www.newbanner.com/SecHumSCM/WhereAmI.html

It's a bit of a read but it's really worth it!

noradrenaline

>>1724039
>>1724043
>>1724045
>>1724047
>>1724051
Thanks for posting these

>>1724055

enjoy

Do you think will ever have the technology to repair the damage cyronics does to the brain?

>>1724059
I'm not too familiar with the exact pattern of damage caused by cryonics, but from what I understand from reading the wiki page, patients usually suffer from extensive ischemic damage before being 'frozen'. Such damage is extremely difficult to repair, and our best bet would be stem cell research. Replacing neurons is tricky because there are very few new neurons made in the adult brain, and those only get created in highly plastic brain regions. Trying to treat an area that has little intrinsic plasticity is nearly impossible if you want it's old function restored.

>>1723964
>woodytrollface.jpg

see, now this is a good thread. this is the type of thread there needs to be more of.

>>1724075
thanks

did someone say brains?

>>1724085
wat the fuck

>>1724048
Everything in the Ghost in the Shell franchise would probably be in his interest too.
>mfw Ghost in the Shell has AI robots talking about Dawkins and memes

>>1723937
Well, who gives a shit about lobsters anyway

This is a dead salmon.

>>1724108
SCIENCE DOES

>>1724048

Thanks for that link! Pretty cool read and thought provoking.

>>1724048

did you know that all the cells in your body die and regenerate constantly, so the person you are right now is actually different from the person you were 10 years ago because all the cells you have right now are copies generated from the cells you have 10 years ago.

Funny you should bring this up, OP. I was just reading about the Diadem Challenge. http://diademchallenge.org/

I spent a bunch of years programming artificial neural networks, and they're total fucking bastards for anything more difficult than simple classification problems. I can't imagine what it's like being an actual biologist and having to deal with different firing rates, signal channels, and the possibility of delays between firings. I mean, I can imagine, and I imagine it sucks a lot. (Though I imagine it's equally amazing when you finally figure something out.)

>>1724141
>all the cells you have right now are copies generated from the cells you have 10 years ago
This is not true for most of the brain. Very few new neurons are made after you're born.

>>1724148

shocker: neural information is not encoded in the rate and timing of firings.

>>1724141
>mfw I realize this every now and then
>>1723973

>>1724148
I've done cognitive neuroscience research on humans in the past. I like it because you don't have to worry so much about individual variation between neurons but rather focus on large scale functions of the system, like oscillatory dynamics. Cool patterns start to emerge that you would most likely miss if you only investigate small populations of neurons.

>>1724157
Yes it is. How else would it be encoded?

>>1724157
In an artificial NN, if you put variable delays between the nodes then you can get very different outputs given the same input set, because of the impact of feedback loops and so forth. (These delays are meant to simulate the different firing rates in biological systems, and also to give some extra robustness to the NNs.)

However, I don't know how it works in actual biology, so maybe it all averages out nicely to give consistent results there. But in simulations, having mixed channel types vastly changes things.

>>1724169
Ooh, I'd like to see that. Maybe on my next vacation I'll delve into the actual biology of it all. Any recommendations for starting points?

One thing that has always interested me is how we have a sense of timing. I assume it has to do with oscillatory dynamics. You have a neural circuit that just runs in a loop, and you optimize it so that every 20th time through is one second, or something like that. I've simulated simple timing circuits like that, but to see it in action (even if it's just vicariously through a paper) would be awesome.

i remember a story about a circuit board hooked up to a genetic algorithm program thing which could rewire the circuit board, and each cycle was tested for measuring a second (time) and after i can't remember how many cycles it got the second period... but when the dudes looked at the circuit and the way it was wired it was totally fucked, and they couldn't replicate it.

It shows how circuits can work in subtle ways we don't understand yet. (but it wasn't god.)

OP, what do you think about the blue brain project?

>>1724186
The basics are simple but vast in information content. There's really only one book you need to get a decent grasp on the fundamental principles though, but it's about 1400 pages. It's called "principles of neural science" by Eric Kandel. You can download it in .pdf from most torrent websites I think.

Also, here's a comprehensible review on the neural correlates of rhythm expectation.

http://www.google.nl/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=4&ved=0CDUQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ac-
psych.org%2Fdownload.php%3Fid%3D23&ei=HOiHTPXfN8SQONTfgNUJ&usg=AFQjCNHaxQV_Ot8o_qbRiEoA4UJaV
H7l1Q&sig2=JngD_P1TMbE3hWdWKmlazQ

>>1724157
The stimulus intensity is encoded in the frequency of the action potentials and the duration of the stimulus is encoded in the number of action potentials.

>>1724192
Daunting but awesome.

>>1724188

http://www.damninteresting.com/on-the-origin-of-circuits

where are sigma-1 receptors found in the brain?
what is their function?
do we produce DMT endogenously, and if so where and what is it's purpose?
how is an orgasm manifested in the brain, the pleasure, not the erection + ejaculation etc.

>>1724198
Great! Thank you very much.

<---- I love this thread this much

>>1724198

I've read this book, it really isn't very good.

>>1724222

oh u

>>1724215
>where are sigma-1 receptors found in the brain?
Pretty much everywhere and not even restricted to the centran nervous system, but most prominent expression is in the primary sensory cortices I believe (not sure)
>what is their function?
They are voltage gated calcium channels and so are probably involved in long term potentiations
>do we produce DMT endogenously, and if so where and what is it's purpose?
There's no direct evidence that we do.
>how is an orgasm manifested in the brain, the pleasure, not the erection + ejaculation etc.
No idea, but I guess the midbrain dopamine system (nucleus accumbens and the like) are involved as well as higher cortical areas for social bonding.
>>1724217
<3
>>1724222
The fuck are you talking about... It's a seminal work. Any respectable university uses this as a book for neuroscience students.

>>1724255
>centran
central*

I am not surprised that you assholes don't know how it works...that is because it is a hacked together system of cables evolved throughout a billion years. There is no real order to the madness, but it works. Consider a cabling job of CAT5 in a network switch. You have a million plus switches and cat 5 cable running to each in a way that gets the job done but nothing is labeled. When you trace those cables you run into the switches but where is the packet of info going?

>>1724215
>mfw all these questions hint towards that sprit molecule pseudoscience

>>1724273
>no real order
>Every neuron is wired the same in every lobster. There is 0 variability. The ganglion is 100% encoded genetically
>implying that fucker is not organized

>>1724273

>>1724255

>what is their function?
>They are voltage gated calcium channels and so are probably involved in long term potentiations

When I was asking what their function is I meant in a real sense, as in what behavioural system of the human does it modulate/contribute to. It's obvious that a receptor will cause an electrical change within the neuron it's sitting on. Every receptor does. It's how they pass on information. This is the problem I have with that kandel book. It focuses too much on electrical signals and how pattern generators are formed etc, which is all well and good but doesn't really say anything useful about how the brain works. Say theirs a postman carrying a letter, if kandel was writing a book about this postman, we'd know everything about how the postman carries the letter, what sort of bag he puts it, which hand he used etc. The thing is who cares? It's more interesting to know what the letter says and how it's processed than to know the former.

>>do we produce DMT endogenously, and if so where and what is it's purpose?
>There's no direct evidence that we do.

actually it is produced endogenously, this has been known for years now

http://www.sciencedirect.com.eresources.shef.ac.uk/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6WN2-4TGPB97-2&a
mp;_user=128590&_coverDate=01/31/2009&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_origin=sea
rch&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_acct=C000010619&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&amp
;_userid=128590&md5=9ebd3f06af57e9d51d89ee617dac18b9&searchtype=a#secx2>>1724255

that's just my two cents

>>1724317
A single ion channel doesn't have any unique cognitive function. It's it interaction with the system through witch cognitive functions arise. A simple calcium channel is involved in a myriad of cognitive functions. The reason Kandel only talks about the basic concepts of neural signal transduction and dynamics etc is because this is the starting point of the system. Die-hard neuroscience won't tell you anything about complex cognition because that's the nature of cellular neuroscience. If that is what you are interested in I suggest you read "23 problems in systems neuroscience" by Hemmen & Sejnowski, or "Cognitive Neuroscience" by Michael Gazzaniga. Both deal with complex cognition and the first book also bridges the gap between small scale cellular processes and cognition.

>actually it is produced endogenously, this has been known for years now
Could you give me the name of the article, the link doesn't work.

>>1724361

Endogenous hallucinogens as ligands of the trace amine receptors: A possible role in sensory perception

there's lots of similar articles, just search for 'endogenous DMT' in any decent medical journal search engine

>>1724368
Thanks. I like learning new things.

>>1724317
nice login link bro

have a better pic op?

>>1724398
not atm but let me see if I can find one

>>1724398
found one that's slightly bigger

jkgkj

>mfw first decent thread in months