/sci/ - Science & Math

>"spaceflight" sfg
aw yea

first for shuttle

first for AbortX

I am skeptical of the feasibility of Mars colonization using Starship (or any other foreseeable rocket.) So I asked the chatbot to steelman the premise and explain how it might work.

Did the bot do well? Can you do better?
(1/2)

>>16206984
(2/2)
The chatbot's response.

posting bot replies is worse than actual bot replies

>>16206984
In 2030 $500B is going to be just enough to doordash yourself a big mac

>>16206986
Really I'm interested in human answers from /sfg/. I'm using the bot response merely as a baseline. Particularly, I think the bot skimped on the details of economic sustainability. I'd like to know if anybody here can do much better than it.

>>16206988
Given the cheap nature of Starship I felt 500 billion was generous, but feel free to substitute what you feel to be a reasonable amount of money.

>>16206988
So true bestie!

it is a complicated issue that is tenuously answered in a 900-page pdf, not 3-paragraphs. It is perhaps the most complicated problem humanity has ever faced.

>>16206995
Can you at least give me a high level overview of how a sustainable Mars colony economy might work? I take for granted that a huge quantity of money might be used to bootstrap the colony, but after that runs out the colony needs to either be FULLY self-sufficient or have income of Earth currency for trade with Earth. How could either of those work?

They'll use the distance from prying eyes to develop super viruses and threaten to deploy them against Earthers if the ransom is not paid.

>>16206985
all of those budget allocation numbers are pulled out of thin air and need to be ignored. that said, it's borderline insanity to think that you could economically export minerals and manufactured goods from mars back to earth without some major technological breakthroughs. raw materials are too heavy and there's nothing you could make on mars that couldn't be made here. the closest you're going to come to sustainability in the foreseeable future is getting some ISS-style budget carveout for a surface base where it gets $5 billion a year just because.

>>16207004
You are eating shit. There is shit in your mouth you shiteating dog

>>16207008
You could export methalox to LEO depots, cheaper than launching painfully a cupful at a time from Earth

>>16207008
Mining off-world resources is going to require us hitting a resource shortage that we can't get around by unlocking a new terrestrial source or devising a more available replacement

>>16207018
Methalox from Mars to LEO is cheaper than from Earth to LEO? That's a surprising claim. I know getting to Martian orbit from Mars is much cheaper than getting to LEO from Earth, but then you've got to get to Earth and into LEO. Do you aerobrake your huge tank of Methalox at Earth to get into orbit?

>>16207023
Plasma magnet solves this

This whole economic viability thing really makes you realise why Artemis is fcusing on the Moon Even makingthe moon viable is a total fantasy whichwont happen, but it's far closer than making Mars economically viable. For example it takes significantly less delta v to get from the Lunar surface to low earth orbit than from earth to low earth orbit. But even still you hae to actually go from LEO to lunar surface to LEO to export anyting fromthe moon rather than just to LEO

>>16206985
Good plan, let's go with it.

>>16207048
Huge amounts of handwaiving in the middle of this photo

>>16207018
Not really when you can only launch every 20 months and have to build out huge infrastructure with giganiggawatts of solar panels and shit. Methane here is practically free and you can launch into LEO whenever.

>>16206979
Shuttle orbiter was the coolest looking spacecraft and coolest looking aircraft at once. would have been even cooler if the program was a sucess and the orbiters had thousands of flights ranging from construction of mega stations in space to carrying school classes in the sortie can. Oh what could have been. We will look on Starship in three same way in the future.

Mars bases will never advance beyond antarctic research bases in your lifetime our your grandchildren's lifetime, and that's ok.

>>16206999
Unfortunately the economics don't work at all. You won't be exporting anything for a century or more. You basically just have to pray that an autistic billionaire's normal grandson cares about the largest net drain on his company. There's a future where they send a rescue mission to mars because it's cheaper to bring everyone back than to keep sending supplies. I suspect this is why Elon is focusing so hard on the "self sustaining" part. But yeah, no exports, no money.

I for one welcome our Chinese overlords who will colonize the planets before us

>>16207048
>step 1: go visit
>step 2: warp the solar system to your whims and rain fire upon God's mistake
>step 3:
>step 4: plant some flowers :)

>>16207063
shut up doomer

>>16207124
Not true. Thinking of a mars colony as a third world nation with only unprocessed raw materials as a possible export is stupid. Novel research and development of mars habitability will result in licenseable technologies.

>>16207124
a mars colony could export rocks and people would pay a ton for them because it's from Mars. You're thinking like a 45 year old middle class white guy. You're forgetting that there are people that pay $4000 for ugly sneakers

>>16206990
fuck offfff

>>16206999
you dig a hole and live in it
use enormous quantities of solar panels to crack ice into hydrogen/oxygen and combine that with atmospheric CO2 to make methalox propellant
use the leftover power to grow crops in aquaponics/aeroponics and filter your farm water through tilapia and crabs which you eat for food
that and chickens for eggs and meat
add infrastructure such as metal making later
now fuck off

if you're worried about food you can ship multiple peoples worth of storable food for a synod in a Starship and feed people that way

>>16207159
You don't need to dig underground, a canyon base is good enough

>>16207169
it's hard to land near canyons though, making your own canyon is better

maybe the real mars colony was the friends we made along they way

>>16207172
>it's hard to land near canyons though
It will be hard to land anyways. Starship is very tall. Git gud

>demo of nuclear thermal engine this decade
Can I see some of the recent static fires?

>>16207124
>muh economics of mars
Mars will be colonized one day and it's only a matter of time and in the distant future it will be terraformed to become Earth like.
The importance of getting there first and forming a strategic command point is of of paramount importance.

a terraformed mars will be insanely good for many reasons;
>low gravity making space flight way easier
>low gravity making building easier
>easier to travel to the gas giants
>potential to harvest Phobos and Deimos to build giant space station and ships

>>16207008
I also immediately though mining on Mars to send to Earth was gay and retarded
it might be cheaper to mine materials on Mars for use in space, though, since there's both lower gravity and less atmosphere

>>16206975
That's how you know we have a serious thread

>>16207186
>a terraformed mars
A retarded waste of time and resources you mean. We'd be better off building a fucking Halo ring. Instead of spending literal centuries of industrial effort to get a Martian atmosphere thick enough to go outside without a pressure suit (forget breathing lmao), you could settle the entire solar system and build dozens or hundred of O'Neil Cylinders, and maybe even chuck a few of them out of the solar system.

>>16206979
I wish the shuttle had done more landing sites.

>>16207200
>but but you can make thousands of pods for the cost of one mansion!
but people still build mansions don't they

>>16206990
You're so hopelessly retarded it boggles the mind

>>16207203
AI in general seems to attract very stupid people for whatever reason

>>16207130
Wait 'til they build lunar tunnel network then pump in Raid.

>>16207214
it’s sort of like VR. Just as gimmicky, but it has way more outreach to the general public. It feels like a fad more than anything; everyone wants to throw the word “AI” into their business model now because it’s trendy.
And stupid people try to “follow” it and act like they are smart or something. E.g.
>dude I tried out the new GTP4.0-zeta quadrant algorithm on this little program of mine. Yeah, wrote it in python myself. Well, at least a friend of mine on discord did it for me. Yeah dude it basically trains itself to compile my homework dude. Oh yeah bro this is like 138% more powerful than the last generation GTP3.2 poindexter algorithm. It’s becoming sentient. Hold up let me finish my onions.

>>16207221
john carmack is our only hope for sentient ai. sadly muh GPUs+LLMs=AI these days

>>16206990
AI is just a machine for blowing smoke up your ass.

>>16207247
How about I blow loads up your ass huh?

>>16207249
gey

There will be no gay people allowed on Mars.

>>16207254
You can be gay but you still have to fuck your designated wife and make her pregnant once a Martian year.

>>16207137
>>16207146
Speciality technologies and luxury goods aren't really enough to build a functioning economy around, unless you really do want it to be only antarctic base-sized.

>>16207293
Well shit guess the first world may as well shrivel up and die then.

>>16207293
They are enough to bootstrap a colony. Once enough people are there, an internal economy is all you need. Not really sure why everyone pretends mars needs to mass export shit to earth because in reality it's not practical anyway beyond small weight/volume high value goods.

>>16207300
Pharmaceuticals are still a major hurdle.

>>16207303
Like electronics, they are small and light mass items. Import costs will be super cheap.

Just sell gold, unironically. It's a whole fucking untouched planet, there must be dozens of absolutely premium quality super rich gold deposits. On earth today we are practically picking at the dregs of what 4000 years of civilisation missed and its still massively profitable. If you can't make money exporting a product that retails for 75,000 dollars a kilo then you aren't going to make money exporting anything.

>>16207293
the will also have their own economy. It's a colony not an oil rig

>>16207293
you're also forgetting entertainment products

https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1797499471632519491
>Starship is ready to fly

>>16207303
Starlink profits would keep those exports going indefinitely probably

>>16207359

>>16207409

>>16207415

>>16207363
>>16207303
and one thing that just came to mind, you could have martians working remote for companies on earth
its so obvious but somehow didn't think about it before
the martian population would be extremely intelligent compared to the population on earth due to filtering effects
I mean you could even have people starting and running companies on earth from Mars
boot strapping the colony is going to take a lot of capital, getting basic resource production is going to take a lot of capital etc but after the largest items are done then you would have an internal economy and basically export intellectual labor, research, entertainment, maybe the colony owned some big companies through the musk foundation and would just get money through dividends from ownership
so even if you couldn't manufacture stuff like pharmaceuticals and microchips for a while and truly be completely self-sufficient I don't think there would really be a risk of the colony ending due to that
too much momentum and too many ways for the colonists to basically buy the few items they need from earth

how much is it going to cost to land mass on mars? Musk talks about there being a 5 to 1 ratio between mass to leo and mass to mars surface and starship mass to leo is something between 20-200 $/kg to LEO, 5-10x from LEO to Mars + you need to amortize the Mars ship (50-100mil extra?) and it will give you 50-150 tonnes to mars surface. i.e 0.333..-2 mil/tonne = 333-2000 $/kg

so overall the cost to get a kilogram of something to mars with starship with these assumptions is 100-1000 $/kg + 333-2000 $/kg = 433 - 3000 $/kg or 0.43 - 3 $/g

I'm not sure about how much drugs or microchips cost per gram (and too lazy to google it) but if I had to guess it would be more than 10x in most cases, so these items wouldn't really even cost that much more on Mars than Earth and then you could buy food, water, oxygen, steel etc from an internal mars market

>>16207427
so just manufacture cocaine on mars?

>>16207221
>it’s sort of like VR. Just as gimmicky, but it has way more outreach to the general public. It feels like a fad more than anything; everyone wants to throw the word “AI” into their business model now because it’s trendy.
>And stupid people try to “follow” it and act like they are smart or something. E.g.
Yeah I notice a lot of normies talking about AI these day which is why I avoid the topic.

>>16207427
>100-1000 $/kg + 333-2000 $/kg = 433 - 3000 $/kg or 0.43 - 3 $/g
made a slight mistake the top is 1000 $/kg more but still the same order of magnitude (3 vs 4 as worst case is still very cheap for high-density/high-cost items like drugs + microchips)
to put this into perspective, gold costs about 70$/g now, so even with the worst case assumptions (which I guess you would argue are optimistic still if you want), so buying gold on mars from earth wouldn't be that much more expensive (if its shipped in bulk) than buying it on earth, only like 5%

buying something like a bottle of water would cost 1000x more though

It annoys me more than it should that this chick just decided to be "the first person to go to mars"... it's just because I said so, ok!?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alyssa_Carson

>>16207453
NASA has publicly stated she is not affiliated with NASA or any space program

https://x.com/_mgde_/status/1797389262523904011

>>16207517

>>16207500
Still doesn't stop her larping.

>>16207519

the cosmic perspective video is extremely kino btw, I recommend it

>>16207453
this is the sort of thing the parents decide

>>16207173
But anon we didn't make any friends along the way?

Holy shit, SpaceX is dumping perlite on soil
https://x.com/BocasBrain/status/1797397805931102381

>>16207530
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perlite
perlite is just hydrated volcanic glass. i.e a rock

>>16207531
it's over

So they are planning to launch with missing tiles. Expect fiery, but mostly peaceful reentry.
https://x.com/ScottLikesSLS/status/1797514538369286213

>>16207539
so left out tiles on purpose and then put a shitload of instruments around it to characterize what happens to the steel at re-entry

>>16207539
elon doesn't understand that you can't just paint steel tile-colored and expect it to work like a tile

>>16207517
>shortened chopsticks
Why?

>>16207565
Smaller bending moment.

>>16207556
But what if you can.

>>16207571
Whatever hell you bring upon me illegally will be laughed through and sub served, you owe 100* more at death and a other person will collect your bounty within 10 years. This mark will never leave you. On the topic of my hell, because it was made illegally, it will be short-lived and imperfect. There'll be no submission to you - when I'm not busy anymore I'll fight you. One day you will suffer my harshunt hell, and I will send you to your 1000s of years.

>>16207539
This tile situation is such a shitshow. Just take the mass loss on bringing extra Methane and transpiration cool it again for fucks sake. I'm sure they will go back to it anyway and we will get a tweet like

>Getting rid of tiles, too much complexity, risk and difficulty of uniform installations
>best part is no part and we just got rid of 5000 parts!

>>16207571
then nasa's gonna feel really silly for never trying it with shuttle

>>16207571
I don't remember much - but it seems as if I had you in the past. Maybe twice. Maybe thrice.

>>16207574
do you have any idea how many valves you'd need to do sweaty starship?

>>16207571
Oh spiffing. This is great news. I am so comfortable.

>>16207574
how much mass would you really save though?

>>16207571
if that's the case, they should paint the rocket red so it goes faster, and maybe add more dakka.

>>16207573
>>16207576
>>16207580
why did you reply to the same post three times?

>>16207578
One, off or on. Call it a couple in parallel for redundancy. Don't see why you would need valves for every single cooling channel or whatever.

>>16207581
Who knows, but those thousands of tiles, pins and thermal blanket plus the extra supporting stringers inside the tank to carry the weight already weigh an absolute shitload. If the vehicle can't survive a single tile out then this shit is dead on arrival anyway. Also how can you 100% QA a gorillion tiles on a rapidly reusable vehicle in any kind of timely of cost effective manner? I'm 100% this is going to be one of Elons "big regret, wasted time" tweets.

>>16207592
>>16207585
*dog fart*

>>16207595
The perfect compliment to this thread and it's pseudo-intellectuals

>>16207592
>Also how can you 100% QA a gorillion tiles on a rapidly reusable vehicle in any kind of timely of cost effective manner?
special purpose robot that inspects the tiles, or a bunch of them

I suck massive horse cock by the way, love when it squirts its huge hot load inside my mouth, mmmm so yummy ;)

Give it to me straight: What are the odds it actually launches on June 6? All of the previous launches always scrubbed to the next day.

>>16207607
neither ift-2 nor ift-3 had a scrub

>>16207571
Then wet-wing stainless steel SSTO spaceplanes are back on the menu.

>>16207607
youre dumb bro

>>16207530
I strongly oppose the dumping of perlite

>>16207124
>>16207137
I'm not saying it shouldn't happen, it should happen but exports are prohibitively expensive. Earth has an entire supply chain coated in atmosphere teeming with available labor. That's before shipping. Mars can not compete with that until conditions are similar. The economics won't make sense for a century or more.
>>16207146
I've spent about $5k on my home museum, but how big is the red rock market really? Or extra tall Mars weed for rappers? There's no way it's even within the same order of magnitude of one year of Mars base operating cost.

>>16207186
Obviously it will and it should retard, I was replying to a post specifically asking about the economics. Otherwise yeah I agree, the best case scenario is one where the US gov realizes the strategic importance of a city full of scientists six months out of nuking range

>>16207621
>but how big is the red rock market really?

Y'all got 0 business acumen. I could sell a few grams of Martian sand in a little glass vial on a necklace for $300 bucks by the tens of thousands every day all day long. Hell I would buy one.

>>16207187
Probably not for a very long time. It may be more efficient but Earth would still be much cheaper

>>16207625
Sell it to a million people and you break even on shipping it back

>>16207633
300 mil to launch one starship from Mars? What are you fuelling it with? Liquid gold? Infrastructure costs for fuel production will have to be fronted anyway or Mars isn't happening and expansions of capacity can be amortised over hundreds/thousands of launches.

>>16207315
Think about the equipment you'd need to ship there, the conditions the labor would be in, the chemical processes, and shipping it back. Even gold is questionable.

>>16207636
For ISRU it depends on the timeline. I strongly suspect that as we get closer to it actually happening, they'll realize the easiest short term answer is just sending a couple of Starships loaded with fuel only. A couple to land to refuel to get to orbit, and maybe a couple orbital depots. How many ships would you really need to send just one back? How many refueling flights would you need back on Earth to get each one there? Also, we're talking about an amount of money to make it worth the effort. I just don't see it.
I want the base to happen, but it won't be like the Americas where you can just ship tobacco back. At some point you run out of tube of dust enthusiasts and you stop being able to enforce intellectual property through six months of space

>>16207637
>Think about the equipment you'd need to ship there

If getting mining and refining equipment to Mars or making it locally is not feasible then we might as well go ahead and can the whole thing now since local resource extraction of materials too heavy to ship (metal) is damn near step 1. Remember I am talking about very rich deposits, you only need small scale machinery for very high yield. It wouldn't be like today's giant open pit mines taking a few grams of gold out of tonnes of rock, but like Roman slaves taking chunks of high grade gold ore from seams, except with modern equipment like explosives and excavators. Refining gold is actually pretty simple so long as you aren't autistic about .999999 purity. The miller process takes it to ~99.5% and all you need to do is blow chlorine gas through molten gold. If your colony can't do something as simple as make elemental chlorine from the perchlorates on Mars then, again, might as well go ahead and can the whole thing now.

>>16207637
even if gold was slightly profitable its a very big opportunity cost instead of making the colony more self-sustainable
if you have some spare capacity to ship stuff back (for instance with people returning) and the material is a byproduct and you would have to start stockpiling it, I don't think it makes sense even if it was profitable, the opportunity cost is too high

>>16207059
It was a clusterfuck of a design, still cool looking and based

on the other hand when I think about it, the luxury goods market is very big and actually one of the largest sectors in Europe, the worlds richest man was into luxury goods
not sure how big of a market that would in billions per year for martian rocks

>>16207645
you have representatives on earth that enforce that intellectual property and the companies would have operations both on mars and earth and the earth based operations would license the tech or just sell products/services using that tech, I don't think that is going to be problem
in the short term the colony would basically be a territory of the US

>>16207652
Look at how much rich retards pay for fancy bottled water. Its absurd. There's one example of a market that literally cannot get saturated.

>>16207656
Oi

>>16207656
yes perhaps the market is larger than people think

>>16207427
>have martians working remote for companies on earth
Anything that will be done on a computer will be done on Earth for a very long time. The cost to stay alive on earth is like $300 to rent a room and buy rice and beans for a month. If Mars is anything like the ISS it'll be $3mil/month.
>the martian population would be extremely intelligent
I honestly wonder. Conditions will be hell and all the engineering will have already been done on Earth. I mean, all the science on Mars so far has been done by a Roomba with the scientists comfy back on Earth. For the first few windows you'd send a plumber that likes camping or something

>>16207662
I'm not talking about the 5 initial colonists doing fiver to sustain themselves, I'm talking about long term when most of the basics are already produced at the colony (water, food, basic building materials, steel) and you would have an appreciably sized colony already

In my periphery I have made 2 Killion(quadrillion). Not sure though, it could be falsity, but I have discovered all knowledge of this particular fission and more. I even designed a fission.

>>16207646
Well then consider the cost of allocating that valuable machine time towards mining something just to export. After all that the $/oz will still need to be competitive with Earth, where labor is cheap and can breathe, and the gold is already in the right well. Those numbers work or they don't.
>>16207647
If you had spare mass it still may not be worth it, even if it's just a gold gravel sitting on the ground, how far from the city is it? How expensive is your labor? Even then it would be such a small fraction of the operating cost it almost wouldn't be worth it, even to close the gap slightly. You could keep it unrefined and sell Martian native gold, but then you get the Mars rocks argument again.

>>16207659
The luxury goods market is really massive. Then there are things that have tremendous value that will only increase in value coming from Mars. Imagine the price tag on Martian gemstones? That's also an example of something that can divided into small units and sold to plebs for jewellery in huge quantities at a huge markup. Regular jewellery pieces made from Martian metals too, even just plain iron pieces woukd fetch a price tag for quite some time. Has the jewellery market been saturated? Lol lmao even.

You could take Martian fines and sinter them into fancy art pieces, how about making those glass art pieces that contain different coloured layers of sand inside, etc... bet you could get a whole boom industry of spiralling prices on artfag shit made from Martian materials. Pay some hypebeasts and high society niggers to shill that shit and it would go nuts.

No one in this thread is really thinking this through.

>>16207655
China? Come on now
>>16207666
Yeah a century or so from now, that's what I've been saying
>>16207656
Do you think people are going to eat the Mars rocks or what? Of course you can still sell consumables in a saturated consumables market, damn

>>16207670
and would spare mass really be spare mass? that would mean extra propellant so it might make sense just to send the ship with less than max payload so you need less propellant

>>16206969
What would you have done?

>>16207670
>but then you get the Mars rocks argument again

It's a valid argument, look at the amount of things that command a high price tag because they have FAMOUS HISTORIC PLACE OR REGION in their name. Some of those things have been sold at a fantastic premiums for literal centuries. I'm sure the first person to start exporting Martian wines will be able to slap whatever price they want on them and sell as many bottles and they can ship.

>>16207677
>Do you think people are going to eat the Mars rocks or what?

You know Mars has this stuff called water, right? Richfags are paying upwards of 1000 dollars a bottle for some of that shit and the cost of production is basically zero since your colonists and rocket fuel needs water anyway.

>>16207648
That 60s-80s government aircraft / spacecraft design was so… utilitarian? Practical and pretty. Can’t really think of a word for it, but it retroactively reminds me of cassette core a la the first Alien movie.

>>16207681
insane animation

>>16207685
Look I'm not saying there's some aspect to Mars that erases the value of anything there, I'm just saying the numbers have to work. I don't think exporting anything at all will be net positive for the first few decades. It doesn't matter how valuable it is, I don't think you'll profit. Even if you did profit on one ship, you aren't putting a dent in your overall expenditure

https://www.space.com/japanese-billionaire-cancels-spacex-starship-moon-dearmoon-flight
LOL the Japanese billionaire actually thought the rocket would be ready in 2023

>>16207694
The question is the ships. They either have to scrap them and turn them into insanely expensive and shitty accomodation or send them back. If they send them back then they will be coming empty since most mass to Mars will be cargo. Do you really think there is no economic incentive to find ways to fill those ships with simple shit you can guaranteed process and sell on the luxury market on Earth? I suppose you could fill them with less fuel but then you are missing a huge opportunity cost which seems retarded to me and I'm sure there will be at least a handful of people willing to bankroll at least one fully loaded ship as proof of concept. I would take shares in that for sure.

>>16207700
They absolutely fucking would not send back empties, holy shit. It will always be cheaper to make a new one on Earth. The steel and fuel would be way more valuable once on Mars than a new second stage on Earth.

https://x.com/StarshipGazer/status/1797600677910491568

YOLO

>>16207707
There is a pretty significant investment in engines and all the gizmos and shit and manufacturing costs. I'm pretty sure it's worth more than what amounts to a pressurised steel tube with no radiation protection on Mars. Plus every ship scrapped on Mars is one they have to build again, essentially making it an expendable stage...

>>16207714

>>16207724
It's over

>>16207715
The only thing that matters is the dollars. Things on Mars will be worth more than things on Earth because there are more things on Earth than on Mars. Steel and fuel will be more valuable on Mars than a new Starship on Earth. The economics of this are inarguable. No wonder you've been arguing for exports if you don't understand this

>>16207539

>>16207729
maybe its not paint but a new thinner tile?

>>16207728
they need exports to earth to run a balanced budget. if they cant do that then they will remain a massive economc drain on earth. Not like that would be a showstopper though if there was political will. The USA could just issue infinite government bonds to Mars which they could use to buy American shit, just like what America does with it's Earhtly vassals.

>>16207729
Having even a small discontinuity in the heat shield is gonna make for some weird heating characteristics.
https://ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/20100030598/downloads/20100030598.pdf

>>16207728
>Things on Mars will be worth more than things on Earth because there are more things on Earth than on Mars. Steel and fuel will be more valuable on Mars than a new Starship on Earth

Sure, if you have an unlimited budget and don't need to worry about you know, running a fucking business, recouping the costs of your very expensive starships, having to build more and more every cycle while bringing in 0 profit from the venture, that kind of thing. I'm not saying you can run the whole economy of Mars off luxury goods but you can certainly cut a huge amount of the early financial burden if you have half a brain for marketing.

>>16207738
>they will remain a massive economc drain on earth
It will be! We should still do it, but it will be. That's just how it is. You aren't arguing with me here, you're arguing with economics
>>16207742
The numbers do not work. You would not return empty Starships, and retuning them with luxury goods would not put a dent into the cost. Let's just assume SpaceX bankrolls all of it and Starlink plus the Earth's launch market nets them $10/bil per year. Do you honestly see the effort of any Mars operation being worth it compared to those numbers? The people there will need materials, they'll need their labor to go towards Mars operations. The economics are not sound. Maybe in a century

>>16207683
Sold it. It's my rock.

https://x.com/HeySlattz/status/1797494906770084333

>>16207738
That's not reasonable: it means that expansion of the colony requires more gibs, a negative feedback cycle which will result in antarctica style feedback stations. Mars has to either become independent of earth eventually or export more than it imports. The former is more realistic than the latter.

It would take a very long time and a concerted effort, but if you can establish a Martian culture of some sort that is distinct from Earth then you can sell the products of that culture for a huge premium. For instance, I watched a documentary on Native Americans and one of the guys in the documentary only made blankets as his source of income, and he made a shit load of money doing it because collectors (white people) paid a huge premium for his authentic native blankets. The only problem I can realistically see is that Mars becomes a technocratic shithole with no culture.

>>16207742
I'll add, Musk wants to scale up to the point where he's building three Starships per day. Production will scale up towards that in between every launch window. That means the value of the Starship on Mars would be even less by the time you'd send it back.

>>16207742
Running a business is incompatible with mars colonization, which is why SpaceX has to stay private and bankroll mars with starlink money.

strapping rockets to asteroids then slamming them into a small area on mars to then mine and send back to earth after processing (whatever blends are the most pollutant) seems the play to me

>>16207754
oh no muh ITAR

test

>>16207763
It's just that easy in rocketry.

>>16207758
Everyone will be living in the same large machine for the first few decades, I don't think they'll produce physical art at all, let alone any comparable to a thousands of years old culturally distinct people.
Mars is not economically viable unless you think on the timelines of cathedral builders. That's ok, but it's also inarguable

>>16207761
That's because you're retarded and don't understand business. Expenditure is x, revenue is y. It doesn't matter how big y is if x is bigger. On Mars, x is bigger than y in all cases.

>>16207771
Read his post again

>>16207776
It's Mars mining with extra steps. It just makes it more expensive and difficult. It still doesn't work

>>16207771
I'm smart and that's how it's going to play out. mars means you don't need to pay attention to pollution. just put cyclers between it and earth. pound mars with mineral rich asteroids (way easier to mine on mars than with a dinky mining satellite meme that also has to boost back after). have refining infrastructure on mars that pumps out illegal on earth pollutants. fill cycler on way back with processed goods. maybe even finished goods given the time between cyclers.
>what about oversupply of x
if you 10x platinum yeah the price goes down but it also means it becomes viable for way more shit (guns, bicycles, cars, w/e) so demand goes up too.

>>16207777
No, he is making a joke about Total Earther Death.

also guess how much easier mining is when the mineral rich astroid gets dropped onto a planet. maybe it's not even "mining" at that point and instead some drones driving around picking up chunks

>>16207258
Martians, being based and living free of Earth law, will Waco Horror anyone suspected of faggotry

>>16207778
Anon, you need to do the math, I guarantee you that platinum isn't valuable enough for this to be profitable.

>>16207791
learn what a cycler is. it's free to put shit on it. you're just a doomer. probably vaxxed. you won't live to see the first man on mars anyway

>>16207778
You would need to
>send mining equipment to Mars
>safely redirect an asteroid far from the city
>build a new base close to the impact
>mine it (don't give me any shit about robots, ask anyone in the industry how realistic mining robots are)
>process it
>launch it back
And all that would need to cost less than $1000/oz for platinum. Does that seem real? We should go to Mars but it won't be profitable.
>>16207784
I think he's talking about things too polluting to mine on Earth, basically regulation induced demand

>>16207793
>cyclers are FREE!
they're not, and that isn't the only significant price point. I'm pretty sure you're just baiting.

>>16207793
lol no, that isn't how cyclers work
you still need the same amount of dV to send things with cyclers, its just that if you had people riding on them they would be more comfortable

>>16207793
The net energy to get to a cycler is the same, it's just more comfortable for the people inside because you can make it huge by constructing it in space

>>16207801
>>16207803
>>16207809
nah you guys are dumb. you can refuel the cycler on the earth side while only needing enough fuel to get from mars to cycler on mars side. fuel on mars is way more at a premium. once again I've proved I'm smart and this is how it's going to happen

>>16207816
This reminds me of that skyhook retard

>can't refute so ad hominem
yup. also the tethered ring is the play for earth launches

Stoke's idea for a heatshield seems much better.

>>16207816
Respond to this >>16207795
Even if the return trip was completely free the numbers do not work.

>>16207831
who cares. your fiat currency inflates everyday. only thing that matters is will to power and throwing rocks at mars is how you get that

>>16207836
We're talking about commodities you fucking idiot, that has nothing to do with the currency. I can't believe I spent all morning arguing with someone who understands economics as well as my dog

>>16207842
your dog isn't vaxxed so he's smarter than you (like me)

>>16207690
Yes, pure functionality. I love it. It was desgined by and for engineers. No bells and whistles, it just does what it needs to do.

>>16207853
If you figured out the vaccine risk > c*vid prevention ratio then the Mars mining expenditure > commodities price should come just as easily. I'll accept your concession at any time

>>16207214
"AI" is just the current big tech scam/bubble.
"Big data" is no longer sufficiently trendy buzzword to keep tech grifters employed doing no useful work.

>>16207872
Big Data is no longer a trendy buzzword because it's become normal. Everybody does it now. AI is heading in that direction as well. The idea of having a natural-language voice interface to your device is gonna be real soon. (For certain values of soon.)

>>16207872
Based retard

>>16207874
Yeah nah, it was a bubble. It was laughable seeing cases like a big company employing as many as 2k data scientists at the peak of the boom and running server farms with whatever unproven fotm databases and trying to figure out how to do something useful, spending years gathering useless data. Now it's all gone lol and nothing changed for the organizations that already had real use cases for big data before the bubble.

>natural-language voice interface to your device
Was done before the current AI boom.
Was a dumb gimmick and it's gonna be a dumb gimmick with terrible UX if it ever becomes a prominent way to interface with programmable computers. But it won't, not with current tech. Current natural language AI-shits like LLMs are toys, any serious use would need something fundamentally different that is not prone to hallucinating all the fucking time.

Now, before you tards get your panties in a bunch, understand that I'm not saying these things are completely devoid of real use. No, they're just overhyped and grifters try to apply them to fucking everything until the general public wisens up to the bullshit and the bubble bursts.

>>16207683
Why would you speculate on the price of moon dust going UP this decade

>>16207897
Not spaceflight nigger shut the fuck up

>>16207732
they should get the thick tiles to work before they think about that

>>16207738
>The USA could just issue infinite government bonds to Mars which they could use to buy American shit, just like what America does with it's Earhtly vassals.
explain it like I'm 9

>>16207758
Maybe they can be like Switzerland earning all their money by being a bank that stores gold on Mars.

>>16207961
Turns out that money isn't actually real, true story.

>>16207961
the USA, and to a lesser extend the EU and China can just say money has infinite value, and it does

>>16207960
the only problem that we know about is that the tiles are unable to stay on the rocket, we have no idea how it deals with reentry

>>16207771
well home home we can't find a case where y is bigger than x

WEN
HOP

>>16207895
>Was a dumb gimmick and it's gonna be a dumb gimmick with terrible UX if it ever becomes a prominent way to interface with programmable computers.
I wish you were right but you're not. Voice interface is gonna e THE way people use computers in 10 years.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQr4Xklqzw8

>>16207976
>Computer, display all federation archives pertaining "krystal the fox", disengage safesearch

>>16207974
what??

>>16207984
well how come we can't find a case where y is bigger than x*

Also I hope I'm not suffering brain damage.

What kind of accents/speech patterns will native born Martians/Lunies have?

>>16207995
Chinese

>>16207995
their hideous elongated forms will surely affect their vocalization

>>16207999
Only on their hemisphere

>>16208002
E*rther manletsss are ssso melodramatic

>>16208012
*gets beat up by teen Earther girl*

>>16208002
Imagine scaling a Martian woman to reach the summit. Tall people tend to have deep voices, I wonder what the upper limit on that is? Inb4 she sounds like James Earl Jones.

Why didn't they make the shuttle like this?

>>16208020
just add some helium to the bedroom to raise her pitch to feminine norms. of course you yourself will sound like mickey mouse but no system is perfect

>>16207987
Well, because y(revenue) is determined by Earth supply/demand, and Earth has a supply chain, cheap labor, and air. Also it's already on Earth. Every single thing you could possibly think of would be cheaper to do on Earth for the next century at least. Labor, equipment, and shipping make x(expense) much higher than it would be on Earth.

>>16208019
Typical dumb earther resorting to violence, it's funny because we can chuck rocks at you anytime we please.

>>16208020
>Martians will consider earthers to be both dumpy and squeaky
kek

Would an electromagnetic launch system work in Mars? Could just use Mars as a ghetto shipyard.

>>16208041
okay but what if we find something valuable on Mars that Earth doesn't have (diamonds?)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJiCHxhm7kA
>Flight 4 Full Stack 'Ready To Fly' | Starbase Update

>>16207995
They'll sound like that kid from Joe Pera who grew up on the antarctic research station.

Hey it's Marcus House with ya here

>>16208055
absolutely. a mass driver on pavonis mons is above most of the atmosphere and puts cargo in an equatorial orbit

>>16208055
maybe, especially at higher elevations where the pressure is really low but that would mean it would only make sense to build quite a bit later
you would have to have some non-rocket transportation to the launch site on a mountain from the colony which would be on the lowest elevation possible basically so starship landing can bleed more speed with higher atmospheric pressure + extracting stuff from the atmosphere is more efficient
so even if it did make sense, it would be an extremely long term project, probably after self sufficiency

>>16208058
Even if they're sitting there on pallet you'd need to go get them and then bring them all the way back to Earth. It still might not be worth it

>>16208031
The voice doesn't bother me
>>16208051
Earthers will be like dwarves, or halflings to them.

If there was a 100 kg gold ingot on the surface of Mars and we knew where exactly it is would it be profitable to retrieve it?

>>16208080
That's only like $7.5million, anon.

>>16208080
no, of course not

>>16208080
Why don't you ask JPL?
>>16208073
Nice reference.

>>16207249
Go back to administering the Department of Transportation, Mr Secretary

>>16207574
I like the idea of transpiration (happy pride month, btw), but adding lots of little channels and actively controlling the amount of cryogenic fluid coming out of them is not a small task
it's probably even shittier than fucking around with tiles
and what if something breaks? it's harder to inspect and maintain

just adding one big valve and turning one side of starship into a showerhead is unlikely to actually work and still requires lots of fiddly channels

>>16208111
anon, I was blissfully ignorant until you mentioned it.

>>16208115
>anon, I was blissfully ignorant until you mentioned it.
blissfully ignorant of cooling channels getting clogged with ice?

>>16208117
>ice
Ice is cold, that would be the opposite of a problem

>>16208121
>>16208084

>>16207592
>Also how can you 100% QA a gorillion tiles on a rapidly reusable vehicle in any kind of timely of cost effective manner?
play a loud sound or otherwise vibrate the whole thing and confirm that the tiles resonate correctly (I think you could do it optically with a fast enough frame rate)
apparently "acoustic resonance testing" is already used in industry

>>16207683
I wouldn't have named my daughter "Gracen". "Grayson" is already a stupid name for a man. Naming your daughter that is child abuse.

>>16208139
so you'd say you're gracist

>>16207767
>Everyone will be living in the same large machine for the first few decades, I don't think they'll produce physical art at all
Bro, you're actually retarded if you think even a group of 10 people would go decades without creating any art. Even some autists make art.

>>16208142
No just gracially aware

>>16208142
of course

Gracial realist

>>16208144
Physical art though? I'm obviously aware of the impulse to make art, I just think it'll happen on computers while there are constraints elsewhere. I also don't think it will be culturally distinct enough to be compelling enough to be worth the price to ship back. Maybe a "first artwork to be made on Mars" deriving value from its place in the history books, otherwise I don't see it happening until it's a fully operational city

>>16208180
In my humble opinion the trade aspect is being overplayed. Elon wants to make the colony self-sufficient. Additionally the literal years between contact between the planets means this is a practical necessity.

Yes, mars will need to produce a lot, but it's going to be busy with making enough for domestic demands.

Still, some people spend all their time making art and to many artists the medium itself is very important. There are some people who would make art in any free time and with whatever materials were on hand.

pic related. It was drawn in orbit.

>>16208195
Oh yeah, exports aside I'd love to see what people make. Industrial tools and environments could lead to some interesting ideas

look at these goofy cones

>>16208139

>>16207683
Kept it or sold it. Though I wouldn't have bought it in the first place because the chance of it being a scam is high and moon rocks are only going to get more common. It's not actually illegal to possess it or anything; the government fucked up awhile back and accidentally sold a bunch of it to a private individual and now there's a legal supply of it on the market.

>>16207520
if she's ready willing and able to go there when the time comes, brings a higher degree in something useful with her, and will take a husband and have kids once there then why not?

>>16208026
because that's fucking retarded

>>16206984
"The year is 2030. Elon Musk has been in Federal prison for wire fraud for three years, and SpaceX's new owner, Jeff Bezos, has converted the booster for the cancelled Starship into the first stage of the "New Armstrong" semi-reusable heavy launch system..."

is nothing happening today?

>>16207556
don't worry bro it's engine paint from the auto parts store, mopar black, it can take the heat

>>16208026
cunnilingus

>>16207539
>>16207571
I'm telling you
spray-on bedliner based ablative heatshield is the way to go
just hose it down after each flight and bobs your ankle

>>16208271
No. Build up for later this week we have Shartliner retry, IFT-4 and more F9

>>16208288
LADS

I can't wait for september 2024 when New Glenn will finally launch.

>>16208296
You laugh but it WILL happen, and in the blink of an eye there will be an orbit-capable challenger to spacex on the market

>>16208308
oh how I wish that were true

>>16208267
Not funny, even as a joke!

>>16208271
https://x.com/jeff_foust/status/1797714998313259518

>>16208317
Spoiler: They ain't gonna do shit.

Hullo finally made his NTP video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KlKAMB71wT4

When license?

>>16208020
I KNEEL

How do “they” (NASA geologists I guess) know that lunar rocks were originally Earth rocks. Handwaiving and just saying “uhhhh geochemistry” isn’t enough. I don’t understand how they KNOW, for certain

>>16208330
how the fuck do they know those Martian meteorites actually came from mars?

>>16208330
Made of the same substance (silicates)

>>16208322
it's going to have to be a nasa mission with nasa astronauts. isaacman may not be on the mission at all.

>>16208338
They ain't gonna do shit.

>>16207048
add an extra zero for each step and it's pretty accurate

>>16208337
that’s pretty much every rocky planet, moon, and asteroid
dumbass

>>16207648

>>16208330
>know that lunar rocks were originally Earth rocks
What does that mean, are you asking how we know that the moon formed from an earth collision>

>>16208350
glass cockpit was an aesthetic downgrade and I’m pretty sure it only saved like 75 lbs total lmao

>>16208365
Basically.
It has always been a hypothesis but once NASA brought back pristine rocks in the 1970s and studied them, they were able to conclude that Lunar rock are just Earth rocks that got ejected into orbit. But I have no clue HOW you conclude that, like wtf do you look for? How do you analyze that (I suppose with an electron microprobe?)

>>16208365
we know where pieces of Theia are in the Earth's mantle as well

>>16208374
just guess.

Teflon Don

>>16208331
The composition of gas trapped in bubbles on the surface of molten rock ejected from the planet after a asteroid impact matches that of the Martian atmosphere.

>>16208328
at the last minute, as usual

>>16208331
martian rocks have an extremely distinctive appearance

>>16208374
>HOW you conclude that
>Radiometric dating of samples
>Moon has a smaller than average iron-rich core compared to Earths' larger than average iron rich core
>Oxygen isotope levels nearly the same as Earth rocks
>KREEP in samples that could only have formed in a magma ocean
>Ratios of Zinc isotopes that do not occur in regular igneous processes
>Clouds of Silica dust and gas around stars ~115ly away which would match a giant impact
>Modern computer simulations showing that Giant impact of Theia on Proto-earth was likely
>>16208378
>What he said
So yeah bunch of evidence built up over the years, have a paper showing how they analyse rocks

>>16208415
ait is that fucking real? holy shit looks like they discovered like kek.

>>16208417
Geochemists are another breed of autistic

>>16208421
how do you not remember when NASA discovered microbes on mars? this was huge news

> muh Theia impact
lol

>>16208421
>>16208431

>>16208368
It saved costs. Every single one of those switches can never fail. Instead you can just make a few touch screens that never fail and if one does just use another touch screen

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ytl1efG1sBw

SOON

First ever static fire at Masseys'
>https://twitter.com/NASASpaceflight/status/1797746142647918740

>>16208440
“reusable rocket”

>>16208446
hopefully the same NY court that nailed Trump gets Felon Husk on defrauding investors soon too

>>16207741
Maybe they *want* to see what happens with one or two missing tiles, when they aren't even planning to splash the upper stage yet. So far they haven't even been able to re-enter properly enough to test the tiles. They almost made it on IFT-3, but it had a fucked up spin that kept it from entering on the heat shield.

>>16208455
I wish we had some footage of what it looked like at 200k feet and also just before it splashed.

>>16208440
Loss of B10 during flight 3 was caused by the ejected ring impacting the top of the booster during engine relight.
Yes, you may quote this.

>>16208461
>"I'M A BIG STUPID FAGGOT AND I LIKE TO SUCK DICK!"

OK quoted

>>16208460
I'm hoping we get to see that in a few days, but tiles weren't the reason it didn't happen last time.

>>16208455
Muskovite Cope

>>16208350
reminder this was designed in the 1960s by people using slide rules

>>16208327
I love NTP

>>16208440
Added mass means there's not enough fuel in the header tank for a landing burn.

There, saved you an hour or so.

>>16208327
NTP is nice, unfortunately it won't be allowed.

>>16208495
By who? It is the USSF, DARPA and NASA who are developing it.

https://x.com/NASASpaceflight/status/1797746142647918740

>>16208521
where's the grid fins? is it the first tanker demo?

>>16208521
they will be able to do these whenever now I guess, no houses nearby

>>16208452
>>>/pol/

>>16208488
>yfw it was designed in the 1960s by people using slide rules

>>16208524
Its an older design, they never bothered with tiles or flaps, as ships at the time were doubtful to make it to reentry.

>>16208516
It won't be allowed for private spaceflight, imagine the headlines: "CEO TO BUILD PRIVATE ICBM STOCKPILE".
I don't think NASA and the plague of old space contractors will be capable of building it either, and I don't even think congress would allow it in the first place. No votes in space + horrible geopolitical lens (why are you launching a radiation spewing rocket over our airspace?) + environmentalists, NIMBYS and anti-nuclear fags campaigning not to. At best they fund a few studies and it goes nowhere.

>>16208541
also, yes I know the NTP won't be launching the rocket from earth

https://x.com/Erdayastronaut/status/1797745490030932268

https://www.nasa.gov/news-release/nasa-invites-media-to-discuss-hubble-operations-update/

>>16208534
I was being sarcastic, I think what they are doing to ex-President Trump is a travesty and emblematic of our descent to 3rd world bananna republic tier governance.

>>16208541
sucks to be you gweilo, we'll use NTRs and those clowns won't say a word

>>16208546
SpaceX cant be trusted. Give ULA or BO the contract

>>16208524
The upper stage doesnt have gridfins retard

>>16208547
You were a banana republic since Lincoln, anon. It got worse during the great depression, and it's been downhill since then.

>>16208516
>the USSF, DARPA and NASA who are developing it

Cool so we might see a prototype sometime in 2043?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ytl1efG1sBw
>Why SpaceX Plans To Jettison The Interstage On Flight 4

>>16208541
If private companies can operate nuclear power plants the they can also operate NTP. HALEU is not weapons grade

>>16208558
you know what i mean

>>16208552
>we'll use NTRs
oooof the "chinese workers killed in nuclear rocket accident" vids are going to be next level

>>16208575
Yes, I agree. I just don't think the press or the public will see it that way.

>>16208565
Lockheed Martin demo by 2027 apparently

>>16208583
>lockheed
see you in 2031

>>16208541
>>16208565
DRACO launches in 2027 on a Vulcan

>>16208575
>>16208541
The Lunar tug that BO and Lockheed are working on (for Blue's HLS) is NTP.

>>16208583
>>16208586
I will do a beck and post it here if that happens.
You can screencap this post.

>>16208583
>locksneed

Lol lmao even, thanks for the tax dollars goy

>>16208585
optimistic of you

>>16208589
forgot pic.

>>16208488
You got a problem with slide rules?

You're not gonna believe this: Just read L2 and guess what? Starship heat shield is not only not designed to survive (wtf) it is designed to KILL astronauts and make their death as agonizing as possible. I confirmed this with my NASA contact and holy shit it's true, what the FUCK IS GOING ON?? STOP MUSK NOW?!

>>16208602
He meant 2041.

>>16208641
this, it's designed to bake them at 400 degrees for an hour, remove the cover and then brown them for an additional 10 to 15 minutes, the sick fuck

>>16208653
mmm, tasty.

>>16208653
You can tell he just wants notoriety at this point. what better way to be hated for all time than murder brave astronauts it's so obvious

Reminder that if starship was any other rocket not only would IFT3 have not resulted in a mishap investigation, but IFT4 would be carrying a real payload.

>>16208674
If starship was japanese IFT1 would've carried a real payload.

>>16208569
melanated content warning

>>16208692
Thanks anon

>>16208547
>>>/pol/

>>16208547
>"LOCK HER UP"
>Lock who up?
>NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

>>16208674
if Starship was an oldspace rocket (fully expendible) it would already be operational

I remember when boomers were losing their shit and basedjaking over this

>>16208720
cool water tower

>>16208581
>the public
all the care about is free free palestime and muh ukraine, most don't even care about space at all these days because musk is the face of space travel today and almost all normals hate musk these days.

>>16208726
When was the last time you really talked to someone in real life, anon?

>>16208720
At the time I did think it was kind of ridiculous. Very transparently a way to create theillusion that the program is further developed than it actually is. It was even funnier when the cone blew away in wind and was never used in flight.

>>16208728
I suspect that the majority of people watching at the time didn't think it was going to fly. A lot of people thought it was publicity and/or a water tower.

>>16208729
most normals don't care about the stuff I care about so I don't bother with them

>The ascender of China's Chang'e-6 probe lifted off from lunar surface on Tuesday morning, carrying samples collected from the moon's far side, an unprecedented feat in human lunar exploration history.
>The ascender has entered a preset orbit around the moon, said the China National Space Administration
https://english.news.cn/20240604/99fce53800084ad09f9d29f54af2791d/c.html

>>16208731
>I suspect that the majority of people watching at the time didn't think it was going to fly
same
it was a hunk of scrap metal welded together by a bunch of amateurs at the time(2018), I thought the whole SS program would certainly have been cancelled by 2020.

>>16208736
good to hear, don't care about /pol/shit when it comes to space. I would even cheer on a Taliban lunar mission.

>>16208748
even if somebody does care about /pol/shit a us vs. china irl space opera would be the best /pol/shit to ever happen

>>16208753
it without a doubt would be good for humanity in the long run, competition is a good thing.
we have seen how destructive it is for our society when we're the only one true super power of the world.

>>16208736
Good job China

>>16207453
>anon doesn't know about manifesting
>>16207520
cute

>>16208747
NTA but when the stainless stell era began that'swhen I knew starship would really happen. Previously I actually thought itmay have enededup cancelled. In the carbon composite era they had spent billions for virtually zero hardware produced, and in each updated rendition of the vehicle it was smaller.

Fumbled the bag

>>16208774
How hard would it be to put the Venusian atmosphere on Mars? No timeline or budget constraints, just physics

>>16208768
>in each updated rendition of the vehicle it was smaller
now the renders show the vehicle getting bigger and anons are doomposting about it

>>16208776
Just scoop out all the Venus air and dump it on Mars. Anons have previously suggested freezing CO2 blocks and using a mass accelerator to throw them into dumb Mars intercept orbits, so that there's a constant stream of blocks falling onto Mars to thicken the atmosphere there while reducing Venus'.

>>16208777
not bigger, longer. completely different.

>>16208546
So much money would free up for more earth sciences if h*bble goes down.

>>16208781
wrong place. much easier to set up a mass driver and get pre-frozen blocks of the chemicals you want from a Jovian moon or something in the asteroid beld

>>16208777
I mean, there are actual problems to doompost about. They got stuck with a tiny diameter due to the impossibility of manufacturing a large vehicle in the carbon composite era. When they switched to stainless they should have gone back to ITS diameter immediately, or maybe even said fuck it and gone with an 18m diameter. Among a whole host of benefits, wider booster means it can aerobrake more effectively on the atmosphere. I think one of the reasons they are dumping the hotstage ring is because it's weight makes the vehicle's drag to weight ratio too bad

>>16208774
say we do terraform them in the far future what plant life and animals do we introduce?

>>16208796
>fattest payload bay ever built
>tiny diameter
fuck you 18 meter starship anon you're retarded and I hate your fucking guts

>>16208798
Mars would be understory plants already adapted to low light. They'd get taller in the Mars gravity so you'd have a normal looking forest right out of the gate.
Venus would be very wet and warm, so it would make sense to import many different species of mosquitos. Maybe genetically engineer some to be larger, and you could also genetically engineer a plant that uses the excess energy from the closer sun to generate fruit filled with blood. I think we have a real shot at a fully mosquito based ecology

>>16208801
Bigger is better

>>16208792
I suppose it'd be less energy intensive to drop stuff back into the inner system than speed it up to go from Venus to Mars, but what's a good candidate that has as much raw CO2 as Venus? Stripping Venus is a two birds with one stone, you strengthen Mars while slowly cooling Venus.

>>16208801
we arent comparing this rogget to an atlas 5 or whatever. We are comparing it to a vehicle which can be used to colonize another planet. Starship cant do that because it's too small. Zubrin actually got what he wanted. It's over.

>>16208805
Settle down bill gates

>>16208798
Some high desert plants might work well on Tharsis.
Venus you could probably just have jungle plants, maybe a few mosquito species

>>16208798
Personally I would put a bunch of mosquitos on Venus.

>>16208805
>I think we have a real shot at a fully mosquito based ecology
Listen, if we're creating ecologies then the LAST fucking thing we're doing is introducing blood sucking parasites.
Exterminate mosquitos, leeches, and especially fucking woodticks. None of them make it off this world.
>>16208814
Fuck you

>>16208805
all that and we import reptiles so we just turn Venus into Earth 100 mil years ago
um kino alert

>>16208819
I kneel

>>16208819
We can make Earth like that, just burn more fossile fuels. We need more CO2

>>16208774
>>16208819
If the day length is the same you could give literally every plant and animal bioluminescence for the four month long night, like avatar. We already do that with fish so I'm pretty sure this isn't hard. You might want to speed up plants biological clock somehow so they treat night like winter or something

>>16208825
damn forgot about their day length that changes things massively!

>>16208823
co2 lowers human IQ so it shouldbe illegal to have ANY in the atmosphere.

>>16208823
Reforrest South America, the population can be displaced into the adjacent sea

>>16208827
it should be illegal to have any atmosphere

Reminder that Venus can be spun up to a 24 hour day in 30 years
https://orionsarm.com/fm_store/SpinAPlanet.pdf

>>16208826
Stellaser Europa until the jet from the evaporating ice flings it from orbit into a Venusian capture orbit to speed up the spin and dump a bunch of water on it

>>16208833
Oh uh or you could >>16208832

>>16208820
>Good news, CNSA! Your package it on its way
>your delivery is expected to arrive: June 20th

>>16208832
not sure I want to screw with ""stable"" orbits of our planets even if this probs won't do anything bad

>>16208835
Please explain this entire post to me

>>16208805
Never change, /sfg/

>>16208850
nice

>>16208850
cool that they got roggs from the back but that's like 3 tablespoons

>>16208850
How can this be real without women and negroes?

>>16208854
Who would win: indecisive world power or an african American with Aspergers

>>16208844
the dream is alive.

>>16208867
Chang'e 6 is mostly made from spares from Chang'e 5, and that brought back 1.7 kg of samples.

>>16208641
Close, that was actually referring to *Starliner*

>>16208893
we need to stop starliner christmas from coming

>>16208897
Let a thousand Starliners bloom.

https://twitter.com/tobyliiiiiiiiii/status/1797808499457667480
>Taken by a small rover attached to the rover, we get our first look at the robotic spacecraft on the Moon's far side. More spacecraft with views like these please.

>>16208919
NASA mogged utterly

>>16208919
kek at the little flag

>>16208933
And of course they had to take some pictures of the flag too

>>16208936
Very strong country

>>16208936
imagine the looting and riots if nasa did this with the usa flag

>>16208943
are you retarded?

>>16208943
>Guys I made up another fantasy to get upset about! I need to tell everyone about this made up scenario in my head!

>>16208945
yea

We should make Venus spin faster.
4ASS? Your proposals.

>>16208943
lol triggered

thoughts on NTR?

>>16208947
we should tidally lock Venus

>>16208951
we should tidally lock uranus

>>16208947
>>16208951
whichever you want to do, my proposal would suffice

>>16208947
boost ceres to hit venus, it might also create a smol moon

>>16208840
have you ever ordered a package on the internet?
China has a lunar sample return mission coming back from the far side, so this anon is making a post as if they ordered a package

>>16208945
DAMN the worm logo is so good.

>>16208947
Convert Mercury into a PROCSIMA array and just blast one edge of Venus constantly

>>16208945
VSVN?