/sci/ - Science & Math

>>16148805
He was onto some real correlations, but he overgeneralized from them and stood confidently by his overgeneralizations. Likely the really bears some resemblance to his theory but is significantly more complicated.

>>16148907
What was he wrong about?

>>16148940
Well, for instance, the correlation between sexual orientation, childhood femininity, and age of transition is only probabilistic, not absolute. More recent research has suggested that meta-attraction cannot account for all attraction to men in AGPs (though this raises its own questions, because wouldn't you expect a true bisexual AGP to also be AAP?) His understanding of motivation for transition for HSTS seems to be likely flawed (or possibly accurate to some subset of the overall cluster). There are also people with significant A*P but persistently no interest in transitioning; this suggests there may be some additional ingredient in play.

>>16148997
>wouldn't you expect a true bisexual AGP to also be AAP?
Why?
>His understanding of motivation for transition for HSTS seems to be likely flawed
Their primary motivation is sexual, to attract heterosexual men. Status and attention seeking too but secondarily. Blanchard never said any of that, however. Analysis and discourse around the two types tend to sugarcoat HSTS IMO.

bump

I think by popularizing autosexuality, he did good. thats one of if not the main cause of transgenderism and transsexuality, and likely inflated by the modern era of porn. ETII is a real and significant thing that most ignore. but the HSTS stuff is nonsense

>>16150907
>HSTS stuff is nonsense
What are non-AGP transexuals then?

>>16152051
exactly that, most notably. they are people transitioning for non-autoattraction reasons. typically internalized homophobia, or other social pressure. there's nothing "inherent" about it, unlike the A*P umbrella

>>16152054
So you acknowledge they are homosexuals? HSTS stands for Homosexual Transexual
>>16152054
For what reasons a subset of homosexual males want to look like women?

>>16152057
there is nothing interent about them being homosexual. AGP doesnt preclude being homosexual, in men, nor AAP in women. Autosexuality is not related to external sexuality. From that maybe you can see how "HSTS" is a pretty pointless category? its not "whats left over after AGP", and it doesnt have any meaning on its own otherwise.

>For what reasons a subset of homosexual males want to look like women?
Didn't I just say?

>>16152054
1-There is an exclusively androphilic subset of MTFs
2-Their brains are like gay men's

It's like arguing with a concrete wall.

>>16152060
>Didn't I just say?
>Internalized homophobia
>A subset of gay men transition because of internalized homophobia during the least homophobic era in human history
Shouldn't they want to become straight men? Why want to be women?

>>16152095
I hate to pull this card, but, you're straight, aren't you? Only a straight guy could be this out of touch. I'm not saying homophobia is rife, but for you to actually have the gall to claim that internalized homophobia is extinct is off the rails

>>16152099
>Internalized homophobia
>I try to pass for a female and have lot's of gay sex with an even bigger pool of men
It's like saying thots get implants and make their ass bigger because of internalized misogyny

>>16152121
they do...?

wow he just gave up after that

>>16149101
>Why?
Well, I've never heard of an AGP who only finds it arousing to imagine being a subset of the women they find attractive in general, why would it suddenly stop at the gender line? (Unless of course, it's not as simple as just being an erotic target location inversion.)
>Their primary motivation is sexual, to attract heterosexual men.
It's not entirely clear to me how that leads to dysphoria about one's sexed traits. There are plenty of gay men who feel sad the straight guy they're into can't return their affections but never feel dysphoria about being male and would indeed probably be horrified if they woke up in a female body tomorrow.

>>16152060
>AGP doesnt preclude being homosexual, in men, nor AAP in women. Autosexuality is not related to external sexuality.
Then it's not an erotic target location inversion as Blanchard postulated.

>>16153289
>I've never heard of an AGP who only finds it arousing to imagine being a subset of the women they find attractive in general
Picrel. They exist
>It's not entirely clear to me how that leads to dysphoria about one's sexed traits.
Low masculinity + Huge attraction to heterosexual men + knowledge heterosexual men are attracted to women = dysphoria
>There are plenty of gay men who feel sad the straight guy they're into can't return their affections but never feel dysphoria
They aren't attracted enough or parents punished femininity early on and incentivized masculine behavior (~3yo). Read Kenneth Zucker

>>16153308
>Picrel. They exist
What makes you think this person exclusively finds it arousing to imagine being that sort of woman, as opposed to merely finding it particularly arousing enough that she preferred to make that sort of thing her transition goals?
>or parents punished femininity early on and incentivized masculine behavior
But there are overtly feminine gay men, and overtly masculine lesbians, who have no interest in transitioning.

>>16153289
>never feel dysphoria about being male and would indeed probably be horrified if they woke up in a female body tomorrow.
Gay men's brains are neither like typical men or women. They are a mosaic of feminine, masculine and neither parts. In ancestral environments most took a third gender role and dressed like women, except very masculine outliers such as Jeffrey Dahmer. This is their natural inclination. In cultures where femininity in gay men is tolerated and encouraged, most crossdress and compete with women for masculine men (ie Thailand, Samoa). It's not clear which aspects of western societies pushed them towards a more normative presentation and identification with their male sex. They are returning to their ancestral presentation, however

>>16153312
>What makes you think this person exclusively finds it arousing to imagine being that sort of woman, as opposed to merely finding it particularly arousing enough that she preferred to make that sort of thing her transition goals?
>She
>Her
AGP is inversion of men's attraction to women, not attraction to specific adornments or hair color. If on top of being attracted to female features he has a stronger attraction to X type of women with specific adornments or features, he will be more strongly aroused by the fantasy and image of himself as X type of women

>>16153330
Also, HSTS tend to have lower than average IQs. AGPs have higher than average. Perhaps smarter gay men are better able to adjust both their attraction to masculine men and socially and are thus less inclined to transition

>>16153364
What pronouns to use is a social convention. I can acknowledge that an AGP trans woman is quite different psychologically from natal females while still calling her "she" because that's the social convention.
>more strongly
Right- not exclusively.

>>16153396
>What pronouns to use is a social convention. I can acknowledge that an AGP trans woman is quite different psychologically from natal females while still calling her "she" because that's the social convention.
I don't care about social conventions, I care about being right. AGPs and HSTS are not just different from women psychologically, they are men with male brains, they are different biologically too. She/her pronouns are for females
>Right- not exclusively.
AGPs who dress and identify as particular types of women is evidence to suspect they at least have a preference to particular types of women. They may be exclusively attracted to them.

>>16153429
Didn't you say yourself HSTS have brains that are only partly male?

>>16153433
I said their brains are a mosaic of masculine, feminine and neither features. On top of that, they are males. They are a subset of men, their brains are male, although not like typical men's brains

>>16153451
I would argue that "men" is a social category, not a biological one, and that one can reasonably say it makes sense to class someone as a woman socially even if they are not a woman biologically, in the same way that an adoptive parent is a parent socially even though not biologically.

>>16153459
Society is based in biology. Women are women socially because they are women biologically

>>16153478
And parents are parents socially because they are parents biologically (as in the social institution of parenthood exists because the biological fact of parenthood does), but adoptive parents are parents socially despite not being parents biologically.

>>16153481
What does women to you?

>>16153481
What does women mean to you?

>>16153502
Depends on the context, just like most words. If you're talking about genetics, then "parents" means genetic parents. If you're talking about a parent-teacher meeting it means the person who's raising the child.

>>16153507
What makes a MTF a woman?

>>16153511
Well, if they pass as female then people will perceive them as female and treat them accordingly. Even if they don't, people who are considerate of their feelings will try to treat them socially as if they were female (even if they don't completely succeed).

>>16153515
What makes them women? Suppose an unattractive woman is treated in ways an attractive woman isn't but both identify as women based on the fact they are both adult human females, despite receiving different social treatments

>>16153545
Obviously I am aware they are not literally biologically female, but they may occupy in some ways the social role of "woman". The word "woman", just like the word "parent", can mean different things in different contexts.

>>16153625
>but they may occupy in some ways the social role of "woman"
In what ways and how does that make them women according to your definition of women? Does a male nurse occupy the social role of a woman because nurses are more often female than male? What if a male has interests, behaviors and a "social role" that are all very atypical for women but identify as a woman, does it mean he is not a woman? Or is he? Where do we draw the line?

>>16153671
Well, at the very least if someone passes as female then other people will treat them as if they were female because they can't act on information they don't have.