/sci/ - Science & Math

depends on who is dying

>>15880048
this never ends actually

>>15880081
This.

>>15880048
Hopefully i finally get some PEACE.

>>15880048
I don't know but I'm gonna find out (eventually)

>>15880130
Awwwwhhhggghh

>>15880079
You
>>15880081
>>15880123
What do you mean?
>>15880134
Me too but I'm getting very anxious with the curiosity

I remember that some doctors conducted an experiment where they replaced someone’s blood with a saline solution. The patient was clinically dead but could be brought back to live as soon as the blood was put back into his veins. The patient said that during the time he was dead, he left his body and was able to freely move through the room and overhear conversations of people in the hallway.

>>15880246
big if true

>>15880246
huge
got more about this?

>>15880276
But death is not (a general) non-existence, it's just the non-existence of the consciousness of a person, no? So it's not that "nothing can exist".

>>15880048
you go with god

>>15880284
>>15880251
>two cock sucking niggers think a creepy pasta is real

>>15880374
>schizo gets butthurt when anons mock his larp
>it was an ebin creepypasta guys, you just don't get it!

>>15880318
why must one being have a different "non-existence" than another? This seems to contradict the idea of nothing

>>15880452
Yeah, but why would death=nothing?

>>15880048
Humans have it all figured out and what we have figured out is that nothing happens after you die. You just die and that's it! We know this with absolute certainty because we know The Science and this is what The Science says.

>>15880460
What death refers to is the nonexistence of consciousness, returning to a "ground state", which I perhaps erroneously referred to as nothing. The idea that two different consciousnesses should have different ground states just seems to me to be baseless anti-materialism, implying that the distinctness of consciousness still exists after consciousness itself does not.

>>15880466
Uh-oh. You committed a cardinal sin. Ten NDT we are all stardust will be thy penance.

>>15880048
You are not sure you died and continue living on. Like waking up from a dream or nightmare. Your world/timeline can go through drastic changes but self-evidently you can only exist in a timeline where you somehow wasn't destroyed.

The universe began when I was born. Just as it is. It will end when I die, I'm the only one experiencing life. How do I know that? Because I'm living it right now and I've never lived through any other point of view. This point of view depends on a functioning brain and so on and on, therefore when I die, I vanish and cease to experience the universe. Since I'm the only one, there is no universe after that.

>>15880276
I don't totally agree, but the graphic is nice, it's a good way to put it.

Don't mind me just posting this image so the bot fag can't use it.

>>15880466
So why in death "nothing can exist"?

>>15880510
What if you are destroyed in all timelines?
>>15880512
>How do I know that? Because I'm living it right now and I've never lived through any other point of view.
This doesn't seem lile a proof for solipsism.

>>15880510
What if you are destroyed in all timelines?
>>15880512
>How do I know that? Because I'm living it right now and I've never lived through any other point of view.
This doesn't seem like a proof for your affirmatiom (solipsism).

>>15880048
Read the Bible.

>>15880540
>This doesn't seem like a proof for your affirmatiom (solipsism).
Not to you, not to everyone else, I understand. I'm not trying to convince anyone about it, because it's futile. I didn't say I have proof of it, just that I know it to be so. This doesn't make me selfish or entitled or without empathy, I see everyone is just like me in almost everything (we all have bodies, we all age, cry, laugh, etc), but I never saw the universe from another point of view other than my own. I would love to hear arguments to convince me otherwise.

To answer OP, what happens after death is a funeral and the body will decompose. But that does not satisfy, because we are looking as someone who was left behind. I won't have a funeral though, because I won't be there to see.

Death sucks. I spent years learning all this math and there is much more I still have to learn, and it just ends for no reason. FUCK. Even if it doesn't, I can't come back and continue where I left off without 3 decades of catchup.

>>15880462
but that's most likely what happens, all other answers come from thousands of years ago from religious people who had no idea how the world actually works

>>15880512
>>15880620
we better get immortality tech as soon as possible, I don't want to die

>>15880365
which god? go where?

>>15880510
but then everyone would be thousands of years old

>>15880048
Reincarnation makes most sense to me

Imagine if you could hear every sound at once. What would it sound like? It would sound like silence because everything would get cancelled out by something else. Since god is everything god is also nothing and since we are a part of god when we die we return to nothing. Does that answer your question?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWetEgQi2z0
>guy mentions he had a brain clot, had to have surgery and was dead for some long time tells the experience
>you see life flash before your eyes
>then you see nothing
>whatever pain you have is gone
>extremely peaceful
>had a hard time coming back to life because death was too peaceful

>>15881142
Why?
>>15881169
But how nothing is? I can't imagine it.
>>15881225
Interesting

>>15880048
You got me with "death thread", you lost me with "happens after death"

>>15880048
Probably OP continues being a faggot in one form or another. Too many things working against the plausibility of eternal peace.

>>15880284
The thing is a meme, but it's similar to NDEs >>15880528

>>15880682
Well, Anon, if you want to continue the train of suffering (for some reason), then you have two options at the moment: cryonics and indirect mind uploading (fancy diary writing with EEGs, DNA, and maybe a chatbot) with the hope that the identity problem can be circumvented with what's available.

>>15881491
>But how nothing is? I can't imagine it.
Here's an example. If you go outside and intently stare at a distant point, making sure to suppress your eye saccades for half a minute, your visual model of the world gradually dissolves, objects become 2d mosaics of color and then noise, you literally see nothing but grey until you release your focus and let your eyes dart around again. Your mind is the same way with your inner thoughts and feelings and how you react to stimuli. Dying is simply the loss of capability to experience that stimuli. After you die you are still sort of there, just settling outward to a kind of default resting state

>>15881834
Sad

>>15881834
Sad
>>15881835
I'm gonna save it

>>15880684
> which god?
Zeus
>go where?
Jupiter

>The brain releases large quantities of DMT when we die
>DMT is the one drug more than any other that seems to hint at the true nature of reality as opposed to just tripping balls for fun
>People who ingest DMT all get the same set of messages, our waking life is similar to an illusion and the ego is a lie, there's no such thing as separation, everything is one
>Buddhists came to the exact same conclusions that DMT suggests
>Buddhists believe in reincarnation

If all is one, it makes sense that consciousness would just recycle over and over. There is no separate "you" that would migrate into a new body, because you are not separate to begin with, you only think you're separate because there are filters in place to make you see it that way.

>>15882578
Is this DMT thing confirmed true? I thought it was just pure speculation due to the phenomenal similarities between DMT and NDEs (and that even then, the experiences noticeably differ from one another)

The light at the end of the tunnel is gods sphincter opening up now that he’s done with you, and you’re left to fertilize soil in the primordial realm. No clue what happens after that though.

>>15881835
Is it just New Age shit?

>>15880048
Reborn, cursed to live the same life, again, again, again, again, again, again, again , again, and again

>>15882846
>Reborn
that doesn't make sense in any real framework, without the help of a unique ID soul. the concept needs it, and is nothing without the unique ID chip. as crazy as I am, it never made any sense to me. I can fit it anywhere, I can't tie it to anything that could realistically be possible. we are gene+experience on a certain path through time and space. that's it. or maybe some many worlds shit but still wouldn't make sense, as the concept has always been presented.

>>15880048
Happens to whom?
The body, the consciousness, those left to grieve? It'd a very open question and not all of the definitions can be handled scientifically.

>>15880048
How did it feel like before you were born?
Aren't both states the same?

>>15882846
>the same life
Why?
>>15882879
Like, what is it like to die and what do you feel/perceive
>>15882884
They probably are, but I don't know how it felt.

>>15881225
So, like general anaesthesia?

You do not have a "soul". This is something known both by atheistic materialists and idealist gurus, such an idea is nothing more than defense mechanism of primitive false monkey ego

>>15880048
There's a huge body of research on this question, anon. See pic related for details.

>>15882992
>body of research
you mean grifting. death doesn't exist. it's a misnomer. it's a primitive take on something technical. it's a bad description of an event, with primitive lenses.
death doesn't have a technical definition. it does, legaleze and medicine and shit, but it differs from what your average human thinks of it.
humans really mean loss. that's what's mostly packaged in the concept. not having someone around because they do not manifest in 3D anymore.
medically you describe the moment a human stops being active in 3D because their structure do not support that anymore.
if you save the whole info, and recreate it, there is no death, as there is no loss. and medically it becomes a simple procedure, of stopping and starting the 3D manifestation of you, based on your material structure.
it's literally a clusterfuck, especially when you add religion and philosophy and politics on top of it, it's the biggest can of worms humanity will open.

>>15881835
fuck off with this shit to /x/

>>15882608
It is indeed just a hypothesis, and has been criticised on the grounds that it might be unrealistic for the brain to naturally secrete such large quantities of DMT, especially during death.

we all here know what happens after death, some are just in denial

>>15883892
literally nothing happens

>>15882964
General anesthesia (had it done numerous times) didn't feel like peace to me, more like instant teleportation, you don't even realize you had it at first. I remember getting my shot and asking the doc "so when are you gonna roll me in for surgery" only to be met with "the surgery is already over lol". So it was basically a near-instantaneous timeskip and the only way to realize it happened was to have something after it. If there wasn't anything after that, I don't even know what it'd feel like, like nothing I guess.
Mind you, sleep never felt like nothing to me, even dreamless sleep: haven't had it for years as I usually get very vivid dreams, but back when I did I still had some notion of resting in darkness for a bit. Which felt quite different to anesthesia, it wasn't as "time-skippy".

>>15880246
>remember that some doctors conducted an experiment where they replaced someone’s blood with a saline solution. The patient was clinically dead but could be brought back to live as soon as the blood was put back into his veins. The patient said that during the time he was dead, he left his body and was able to freely move through the room and overhear conversations of people in the hallway.

absolute dogshit though

>>15880048
Same thing that happened before you were born, nothingness and then you open your eyes and go eat some grubs because you're a spider and your hunger chemicals are flooding your little brain

>>15883930
>more like instant teleportation
NTA but I can confirm this experience. There's another kind of drug used for unpleasant research like colonoscopy (yes funny gay jokes whatever) and that drug is a weird experience too: from the perspective of the doctor I was consciouss but I experienced going to sleep, waking up but then getting a flashback and experiencing parts of the research like it's happening now. Total mindfuck. Gives weight to the brain-in-a-vat hypothesis.

The truth is that Death is number 13 in Tarot for a reason. What you think of as death is a farce. You are constantly experiencing dying. I get that there is a thing "the end" but it is eternally far from you. Just keep that in mind. Thinking of death as a future ending is not honest. Death has happened and keeps happening everyday.

>>15883930
I had general anesthesia for a 5 hour surgery once and felt the same way. I was cracking jokes with the doctor just before, then they told me I was going to sleep, they gave me the shot and a second later I was opening my eyes going from one room to another after surgery. You said it right, it's not anything close to sleep, it's a time skip. I even woke up earlier than expected, still moving to my room, I tried to pull my tubes in front of everyone, hallucinating loony conspiracy theories looking at hospital stuff around me, but I digress.

>>15884151
>it's a time skip
so fast travel is possible lmao

>>15883972
What are arguments for the reincarnation then?

>>15884199
Not reincarnation, reconstitution, there is no "you" only matter interactions, all life/consciousness is the same thing, you are no different from an ant or a dog, just more complex and thus more capable of introducing the illusion of an "I", take away the physical forms and everything is the exact same thing.

This is the wrong board for discussing this question, imo. You're better served by posting on /lit/.
For an interesting take on the matter check out J.J. Valberg's "Death, Dream, and the Self."

>>15880318
Death means the death of your brain. What you die the brain dies. That's YOU. So when you die your brain gets destroyed and YOU die. Like a computer being powered down. You cease to exist. Sorry. But everything else is a massive cope.

>>15880512
Yup. Your field of view ends and that's the end. From your perspective the universe ends with your death bc you can't expierence anything past your death. But the party will obviously continue for everybody else.

>>15884306
I would rather cope than take anything you say serious. :)

>>15884300
what are you doing? gatekeeping what science is allowed to talk about and what not, based on what you think people here should read? are you insane?
>if science doesn't have an answer for it it's forbidden discussion. wait for your masters to give you an answer.

Cope is good. Stop searching for the shared objective truth that even contrarians agree with. Stop falling for red herrings.

>>15884350
>Cope is good.
I can come up with better scientific cope, on a fucking whim, that's eons ahead any bullshit philosophy and religion has.
that is possible, and happened here. but it's not about that anon is it? it's about shilling some particular kinds of cope.

Nothing probably. Fine with that though.

>>15884356
I don't care.
I am saying it does not matter what other scientists believe.
All that matters is the real truth that sets me and my others free.

>>15884361
>All that matters is the real truth that sets me and my others free.
the devil is in the details isn't it? that can mean a bunch of weird shit

>>15884346
I can't even tell what you're trying to say here. You think I'm "gatekeeping" because I suggest that OP use a more suitable board to ask a question that touches on metaphysics and philosophy, something ninety percent of the posters here either are unaware of or scoff at?

>>15884372
Good. I want it to mean weird shit that can't be understood.

Anyways guys, we're all going to die...rather sure that it won't hurt either...fine with that

>>15884416
It'll only hurt a lot.

>>15884256
Reconstitution of the DNA, right? But would I feel the same as I feel now if that happened?
>>15884300
I'm gonna save it, ty

>>15884436
You have no fucking idea what pain is.

>>15884438
>Reconstitution of the DNA, right?
Reconstitution of a physical form, a bacteria, a caterpillar, elephant, dinosaur, bird, human, it's all ultimately the same thing.
>would I feel
As in would the physical form process information like now? Well if it's conscious to any degree as this one is it would, yes. There is no "you", the only "you" that exists is the learned and memorized patterns by this physical form.

>>15884520
I said DNA because it's the essentially what differentiates each person and creates the "I". And I would have to be lucky to my actual form be reconstitued, because even with infinite time, it's not implied that my form would return, right? And the information learned and memorized by the body could be different too, no?

>>15884520
I said DNA because it's essentially what differentiates each person and creates the "I". And I would have to be lucky to my actual form be reconstitued, because even with infinite time, it's not implied that my form would return, right? And the information learned and memorized by the body could be different too, no?

>>15884300
TLDR?

>>15884554
>I said DNA because it's essentially what differentiates each person and creates the "I".
No it's just the patterns your brain has learned and memorized.
> And I would have to be lucky to my actual form be reconstitued, because even with infinite time, it's not implied that my form would return, right?
There is no you or your form, just shit in the universe coming together and processing information
> And the information learned and memorized by the body could be different too, no?
Not could be, but is, because it's a different form, new memories, new experiences, everything this form learns will die with it and eventually a new one will take its place in another time, it's all just an endless cycle.

>>15880081
genuinely horrifying

>>15884574
It's a phenomenological approach to the question of "what if this were all a dream?" which defines "this" as all that is perceptible and intelligible to the individual, for which the author uses the term "personal horizon," and which draws upon many strands of philosophy to reach its conclusions, notably the work of Wittgenstein. It's a bit hard to summarize, much like Hegel's Phenomenology, but not for good reason.

>>15884612
not for no good reason**

>>15884612
Haven't read much philososhit since uni days so I am a bit rusty but anything related to Hegel automatically goes straight to the trash, sorry.

>>15884646
That's a shame. I find Hegel to be a fascinating thinker, certainly worth studying even if one vehemently disagrees with everything he wrote. Understanding what he's getting at with the whole Absolute Knowing thing can be a bit like trying to see through the back of your own eyeball but getting there is a trip worth making for anyone interested in philosophy, imo. The charges leveled at him - namely that of instigating communism and fascism, being an evil German autism wizard who hypnotizes people through his writings, et cetera - are largely made by people unfamiliar with or without good comprehension of his ideas.
In any case, Valberg cites Wittgenstein much more than Hegel, despite the phenomenological content of his work; if it is Hegel that puts you off, there's no need for concern.

>>15880048
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C906lbkcYug
The two stars are distinguishable in binoculars. β Capricorni's traditional name comes from the Arabic phrase for "the lucky stars of the slaughterer,"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2YFirVguEk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7REEjk6WBA
In traditional Chinese astronomy, stars from Aries were used in several constellations. The brightest stars—Alpha, Beta, and Gamma Arietis—formed a constellation called Lou (婁), variously translated as "bond", "lasso", and "sickle",
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inertial_confinement_fusion
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloud_chamber
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levitation_(physics)

>>15884373
Specialization isn't necessarily good, in fact I'd say it's a necessary evil. Gating some vital knowledge behind specific disciplines just encourages people to be ignorant about it, when the world would be a better place if all of us were expected to know certain things.

The golden age of western learning was before the barriers of specialization came up anyway. I don't think it's a coincidence that our rate of advance has slowed now when everyone who tackles a discipline, learns the same material in the same order. The human brain is rewarded greatly by taking off angles, and viewing stuff in a different light.

/thread

eternal reminder death is a soluble problem and not an inevitability

>>15880048
We just go back to being the universe, like we were before we were born.

We're just the universe experiencing itself, and have forgotten what we are. It's why near-death experiences, heavy trips, and dreams all involve 'one-ness' with others and the universe... because when we're stripped of our body and ego that's what we are. The universe. Everything that was and will be and is all at once.

>>15884934
It's interesting how when we traditionally imagine "the universe" and "reality", we picture the sum of physical matter. But the universe itself has consciousness, which makes sense because it is the total of all that exists, and awareness clearly exists. We are just tiny parts of the universe with heavy filters placed on it to give the illusion of separate existence.

There was some european philosopher that came to this conclusion centuries ago, without the use of drugs or eastern influences. I think it was Spinoza.

Either something or nothing. Both are 3sp00ky5me frfr no cap skrrrrt.

This isn't what you were asking OP, but this thread topic makes me want to mention that the whole "going peacefully" stuff that people say when old people die is largely nonsense. If you make it to old age and are lying in bed as your body slowly shuts down, unless you are massively drugged-up and put into a coma by the hospital staff or hospice nurse, your death will more than likely not be peaceful. It is painful, slow, scary, and your body fights all the way to the end. You might be surprised at how long the death process takes. Old people who look like they're one sneeze away from dying can last hours as they death-rattle and hyperventilate. People cry out in pain, weep, choke on their own vomit, and are terrified out of their minds. Your nerves will start going ballistic as they die and you'll feel that, too. You will lack even the strength to clear your throat as mucous and bile build up. All this while your brain slowly dies and you become demented if you weren't already. This causes the primal anxiety to become even worse for a lot of people as not only are you dying, but now you are confused as well. Look up the dying stages that hospice nurses provide families if you want a better idea. When families aren't present at the time of death, staff usually just say, "Don't worry they went peacefully in their sleep." Those are the lucky few.

>>15884983
we should really legalize voluntary euthanasia

>>15884983
Welp now my death anxiety is even worse, thanks anon

>>15885048
You can virtually guarantee yourself a peaceful, painless death so long as you're not afraid of suicide

>>15885063
how?

>>15885063
>guarantee
that is in question in this thread, anon. might not be possible from your point of view. or even if you try it, you might end up worse than before.
trying and failing and then having a horrible life based on it sounds worse than just living as you already are.
it might be possible that trying to kys you have to fight all "quantum forces" (tongue in cheek) and nature of reality which MIGHT try to keep you on a path where you still live, even if seriously incapacitated. I wouldn't risk it unless you're facing a worse threat than quick death.

>>15880048
there's no such thing as "after death", because there's no such thing as death

>>15885139
so what would happen to you if i theoretically shot you in the head

>>15885170
you'd get splattered in brain bits while I'd experience you gun misfiring then I'd bash your head in with your jammed gun.

>>15885170
if you shot the head of the body I'm currently residing in that body would stop functioning immediately, much like if you were to destroy the motor of my car
you would however not be shooting me, which is not possible

>>15885189
problem with science looking into this, seriously, is that in the meanwhile humans took the concept and corrupted it in any imaginable way possible. they used that shit, made promises there's virgins and shit for you to fuck, so you do "their bidding" in the hopes of virgins.
having SO MUCH FUCKING USE out of abusing this concept, you can maybe see the issue we find ourselves in. science answer with "nothing really happens in the absolute sense" does not sit good with how they already corrupted the concept.
what is science saying? that everyone who was ever promised virgins didn't get them? how does that sit with the rest of idiots who have to sacrifice themselves for their masters? they might start asking questions "but boss, science says I won't get the virgins". see, that's a big issue right there.
ergo, science isn't particularly free in this sense.

>>15885207
let alone all the historical load that this would invalidate. so much shit has been done in the name of something that happens after death, and there's really no way around invalidating ALL of it in one fucking go. you basically flush all human history down the drain
>well that was fucking wrong
that will never be accepted. at least not in this direct brutal sense. they will need to paint that shit, heavily.
>you mean my meemaw is not looking down from heaven? everyone who has ever died just...stopped existing and nothing else?

I don't think anything happens after death, but something else about non-existence really bothers me. From my perspective the universe stops existing when i die. And when i do, i will no longer value my existence because i will be physically unable to. So why should i then consider anything in this life worth doing?

I generally just avoid thinking about this because i've always failed to think of a genuinely motivating answer. Like, i can console myself that i will do good things in life and that will give me a form of immortality, but that feels like, what the kids these days would call "a cope".

I will miss not existing. Even though i know i can't. Looking forward to this all ending is quite depressing.

The solution though is not to make up bullshit about the afterlife existing, but rather to just invent immortality.

Practically speaking we would just need to institute a simple population control strategy. The fairest and simplest imo just because that if someone in your family decides to die, you gain the right to have a child, and everyone slowly gains the right to have children based on the carrying capacity of the available habitation. And like, we could theoretically terraform the whole solar system before we need to even think about building space habitation or colonizing other solar systems. So we got plenty of room for more people for quite a long while before people gotta be worried about such population controls robbing them of the right to have kids in a reasonable amount of immortality.

>>15885223
the problem you have is with timespans. since there's virtually 0 time experienced between the moment you die and the moment you are "reassembled" at any arbitrary future point, implies your whole experience is a non-stop continuum.
see:
>>15883930
>So it was basically a near-instantaneous timeskip and the only way to realize it happened was to have something after it.
>>15884151
>You said it right, it's not anything close to sleep, it's a time skip.
in this sense, anything that's possible to happen to you will happen in a continuous experience, irrespective of local time as it were. you can suddenly fast-forward to some arbitrary future where you exist again, for various possible reasons. looking at it this way, everything you do and experience is paramount and the literal point of your existance. it's literally centered around experiencing. your awareness, consciousness is intimately tied to experiencing. which to me implies you should try to. you have no choice really. that's weird in a sense. as far as your consciousness goes there's no way to stop experiencing. the intuition that deading yourself gives you some kind of peace/rest is not real and I'm not exaggerating or joking. it cannot be real, from your perspective.

>>15885223
That doesn't absolve you from the anxieties of death and the matters of what happens, as you will still die eventually. Not even talking about the far-flung stuff like the death of the universe: even without aging there will be desease. And if there is no illness, you will still die in a freak accident, shootout, whatever, which might be even scarier. Yeah, you will have your 5000 years of fun if you're lucky, but that time will just fly by and then something happens and you're dead.

>>15885207
NTA. Just want to point out, as an atheist myself, how childish and low IQ it is to accuse religious people of making up stories to quell their fear of death. Some religions want to end the cycle of reincarnation, others are scared of judgement, some are scared of eternal life even if pleasant. On the other hand atheists are so scared of eternal oblivion that they will do anything to distract themselves, including evil to gain immortality through the history books.

>>15885232

It's quite an assumption that i will ever start existing again by chance.

It's hard to imagine that the universe can end. That there must be infinities inside of black holes or as a part of an eternal reordering and rescaling of the universe due to heat and energy and time changing and new systems possibly emerging from them like the electro weak force breaking into the weak and electromagnetic forces at lower energies.

But if it was such a certainty that we would randomly be reassembled for certain at some point in the future, why did we obviously start existing here in a world where our origin actually makes perfect evolutionary sense?

Like why didn't we spontaneously spring forth from the earth like a tolkein orc?

>>15885241

I got no problem with people whose belief about the afterlife is just fun bullshit. Like, aint nobody bitchin' about norse mythology. Because the north mythology didn't burn people at the stake because they didn't believe in the right kind of afterlife. That's the sort of bullshit beliefs people make up that are harmful.

>>15885232
I see your point but that's only true if you cling to the paradigm of "if it can happen, it eventually will". I personally see no proof of this being the case, especially with how vast cosmos is. Everything could die much earlier than there would be a chance for this particular me (not just my body, but all my memories exactly up to that point) to reassemble. And it also must happen in such a way so that's actually me and not a clone or a weird half copy or whatever, or else the causal chain of experience might get broken, not letting me continue experiencing (otherwise I would've experienced other people's experience too), but that's a whole different can of worms.
Besides, if taken at face value, your statement raises the simple question: if the subjective chain of experiencing can't be broken, why didn't I have beforelife experience? If it does have a start, why does it not have an end? And if it does not have a start but memories do not persist I would consider that breaking the causal chain and not much different from death in practical terms.

>>15885241
>how childish and low IQ it is to accuse religious people of making up stories to quell their fear of death.
I am not that brother, have friend and family who're christian and I respect that for them. I'm not interested in changing their minds.
Problem in this case is looking into certain things that go against that is seriously complicated because you know...of the fucking implications. The issue is not that I want to take their cope away, is that we can't make advancements because of all the bullshit around the subject.
I cannot excuse THAT for them. But sure I get it, I never said I don't. I get the cope. I have some of it for myself, we all do more or less. I just don't let it influence what I look at. stop acting like a victim, it's not science that's your enemy, you are. you need to deal with the fact that whatever you believe in might be objectively false, and that's your problem that you are making ours, forcefully.

>>15885239

Nah, we just need backups.

And like, in the very very far future we might need to figure out how to project our existence onto slower, colder, unimaginably larger scales of existence due to the heat death. But like, we got time to figure that shit out.

>>15885245
>It's quite an assumption that i will ever start existing again by chance.
well depends on the chance don't it? and what you know about reality and what you are.
500 years ago? harder to explain I think. today? at all if you stick your head in the next (full res) brain scanning tech.

>>15885256
How will you ensure that the backups are actually you and not a perfect copy that you won't get to experience?

>>15885257

If it is true that we need a logical path between physics and the result of us existing, then it may be impossible for people to just spontaneously start existing again with the memories of our previous incarnations.

Like, i don't think any of us can currently calculate the odds of that. Since we don't have a good handle on how consciousness works yet. When we do, then we should be able to figure out the odds. And it's possible that they're so slim that even the heat death isn't enough time and distance for that to occur.

And it's also possible that even other big bangs or other scales of existence won't have enough time in them for such a thing to occur.

>>15885263

The technology that i am envisioning actually allows you to move back and forth between your copies. And merge their memories and meaningfully understand the difference between who you are. Optionally as well. You can choose how to mix and match your memories as you see fit. And when you combine two people's perspectives and memories you are in the best position possible to make such a judgement call about how to alter your own memories.

>>15885245
>It's hard to imagine that the universe can end.
especially at this point, with your brain, trying to figure out how much time there's left and what will ultimately happen is kinda optimistic at the very best. we have no clue where this shit ends up at, how, why, what else new happens along the way, what tech we discover (just breaking backwards time travel implies we should theoretically be able to bring back to life anyone who has ever lived (more or less). which would be a serious game changer and something you really didn't factor into your outlook.
so in this sense, with all due respect you are basically a chimp who can't comprehend everything that can/will happen, just like I don't. we can all chip in with ideas and build a better understanding, as we always did.

>>15885263
that is a wrongly formulated question based on what we actually are. having the wrong idea for WHAT you are can lead to conflicting perspectives.

>>15885271

Well i don't think we have good evidence the universe begins. So i don't think we have good reason to believe that it should stop.

We have a theory that all of the stuff in the universe was once smashed into the smallest point possible, but we don't actually have a theory that says why it was there or what could have been before it. We aren't even sure a state change occurred. Like, we could have just been expanding forever and things actually were smashed down to points beyond what we'd consider meaningfully large. Like, what would the energy of a quark mean in a space that is smaller than the planck length? Energy can't be nowhere or nothing but it was clearly not a quark at the time. But it may have been some other-dimensionary or other-scaley particle and a quark is just what it looks like when space gets roomy enough.

>>15885274
I sort of understand what you're getting at but I need you to elaborate.

To give you an idea of how you could meaningfully tell the difference between multiple versions of yourself, think about dreams. You aren't confused that dreams didn't happen but you do remember being the person in the dream.

It is possible to give that same quality to any memories you choose. And by doing so, you will change the default perspective on them to being "not really me, but a story about me".

>>15885285
When enough time passes, I do sort of get confused whether a particular thing was a vivid dream or a distant memory.

>>15885248
>>15885253
Again: that knife cuts on both sides. I too, am frustrated by the lack of urgency to make life right here right now on this planet the best we can because the urgency is quelled by copes. However there are metaphorical evil forces that will create hell on Earth by offering transhumanist technology as a faustian deal. They will enslave us by connecting our brain to a computer network. It will be tempting at first: anon, your iron stores are low, have a supplement. Anon, your nanomachines just cleaned your arteries. After that they will literally brainwash you. That's why religious people have no faith in Earthly existence.

>>15885280
well the clasical wrong perspective is natural in the sense that we had no other choice so we defined what we are based on our phisical limitations imposed by our environment, not based on what we ACTUALLY are. that can stay "hidden" for very long time, having no way to flex it in different ways. it's actually a sort of inevitable intuition.
we always see people die, none ever come back ("dead is dead bro"). so we take some shit for granted. we are this particular body, and if this goes it's game over. hard to argue with this, especially historically speaking.
the fact that you didn't manifest in a "new" body, does not mean that you fundamentally can't. you just couldn't in your current environment.
you actually have no idea of your body, if it's the same one or not, as long as it's structurally identical. you are that which can exist in not only any identical body, but any identical structure that permits your consciousness to manifest, which doesn't even mean that it has to be biological (if we don't get any new surprise with some weird effect that specifically bio has on consciousness).
you are that which can exist in any form, which supports consciousness, cannot really ever "die", and will always feel like you, with all your particularities and sense of self. the one reading this, this will always be in any material form that supports what you are at this very moment. you'll always be chill and relaxed that you exist, you'll always tell us it is really you. actually not only you will tell us, you will insist that indeed it's you and it fucking worked you are in a new body or whatever. there's no way around that, it's impossible to lose yourself as long as the proper material structure to manifest you exists.
it's actually the other way around, there's literally no possible way to not be you. it's the opposite of your fears.

>>15885292
>. They will enslave us by connecting our brain to a computer network.
with all due respect anon, why the fuck don't you do something about it, realistically speaking, and you're wasting my time here with your fears? I can't afford a new video card for fucks sake, are you insane? think telling that to someone who can't afford a new video card increases your chances of it not happening?

>>15885286

We will have better control over that when we can edit and backup memories.

But people may actually prefer not to. People may choose to make forks of themselves.

>>15885292

Anon, we don't have a choice. We aint gonna have the opportunity to decline the technology. The technology will simply make stronger humans and any nation, the first nation that opens that box, it's open forever. Everybody will have to do it to keep up. We aint gonna go world war 2 on their ass for augmenting a few of their people, and then it will be inevitable that the bar raises for everyone.

But that doesn't mean we automatically lose. We just gotta fight the good fight for the human soul on new battlefields. And personally i think humanity is up to the challenge. Now don't be a pessimist on me mr spiritualist.

>>15885294
So if I make a copy of you, which one will be you and continue to experience an uninterrupted sense of self? Again, I see this point, but I cannot fully commit to it until this question is sorted out.

>>15885301
>battlefields
>humanity is up to the challenge
Current competing thoughts and behaviours are on the field of social darwinism. That's the wrong game. I want a new game: symbiotic relationships replacing parasitic relationships. Compete for the most mutual benefits. No winners and losers but those who win more and those who win less.

>>15885323

I don't think any of that precludes transhumanist augmentation.

Like i'm betting you're worried about it making the gulf between the rich and the poor bigger but we haven't exactly solved that problem with our non-augmented asses have we?

But it is fully possible for us to provide for every person.

Personally i prefer communism. But don't assume i mean any communism you know of.

I'm think we just make 250 million copies of me and i'll do all of the work and the rest of you can just chill.

>>15885302
you just spawn another instance of you on a different worldline if you don't stop your current body from manifesting. you need to consider your continuous experience and manage it as a singular thing as to not confuse everybody. I wrote a more lengthy response but there's no real way around it so if you want to jump ship and change bodies you need to let your old one go, literally needs to be dissintegrated (so as to stop manifesting you) right after the scan. ideally the scanning would be destructive in nature. once you copy and stop your manifestation you can take that info and spawn another instance of you. that info is you in non-active state. you can spawn more of you from it, but it becomes weird for us. and for you. each of you will have its own POV but will be whatever you are right now, both of them. just that the environment will start affecting each in a different way and they will experience differently.
this is irrelevant in the grand scheme of things anyway, and the "chill dude, it's fine, it really is you" will mostly come from people who did swap bodies. they'll offer the service to dying people. they will take the plunge. they have one week left to life, nothing to lose. they'll get new bodies, people will see that it is them, they act like them, they remember all their life and friends and all possible details, there's literally no change apart from you know...new body.
the only way your POV can SURELY switch to new body is to destroy your old body so as to not manifest you anymore. else you are literally trapped in it.

>>15885327
>but we haven't exactly solved that problem
That's the thing: as long as our mindset is wrong anything that comes out of that is wrong. Doing the right thing for the wrong reasons will make wrong of what's right.
>But it is fully possible for us to provide for every person
Let's do that right now.
>i'll do all of the work and the rest of you can just chill
This is already the case. A small group of people are incredibly productive yet we don't get to chill.
>the gulf between the rich and the poor
It's not only about distribution of resources. There will also be ideological war like conservatives versus progressives, discrimination, people who will spend 24/7 in a coompod, hackers... It's going to be wild.

>>15885382

>small group of people are incredibly productive yet we don't get to chill.

Yeah and when i'm the entire work force we won't need some economy to tell us where to put our effort toward, i'll just work with myself to do everything. I'll still of course listen to market forces - they are a great indicator of relative demand, but supply no longer needs to be more than the carrying capacity of our resources.

>>15885387
>market forces
I don't think that economy = supply & demand because demand is created by suppliers. I didn't ask for candy but was tempted to eat it. I didn't think about white teeth but then I saw pictures of models after yellowing my teeth with candy.

>>15885302
>>15885357 me
the thing is, we're pretty egoistical, at least now, forced by our biology. whatever is not us, as in directly, like your hands are for example, to you it's clear they are yours, are an extension of you with full control over them, then anything that's exterior of that won't intuitively feel like they belong to you, even if they look identical to you. as long as they are a separate unit, over which you have no direct control, no experience of, you cannot intuitively accept as being you. you will always get that "dunno dude, fucker might try to kill me" primitive vibe you get with any living thing that's not like...you.
say you get scanned and current body destroyed. rebuilt in a new body and you keep the backup with rules that each time you die you get rebuilt from that backup, and say wipe out 5 times in a row, 6th time you are reassembled from that original seed it will be you from right before the scan, having jumped in some future where you already wiped 5 times, you can watch your previous bodies being ded. and you wouldn't feel like of those are you. you'd feel fucking happy you are alive and not them, dead. you don't give a flying fuck about anyone else, but you, as a material unit/POV.
that is what needs management. you need to create a way to keep that going, and to make sense, and to consider that you won't think of any other version of you as being you, even if each of them feels like exactly you feel.
as in, if we impose a certain mechanic in how we play the game, with clear rules, we can literally go to the base on Mars in 30 minutes, at the speed of light (scan-dissasembly/reassembly times excluded, which is an engineering issue).
that means rockets get simpler for cargo transport, cheaper, and a whole bunch of other crazy shit. you can't have that making sense without rules and randomly printing clones and wondering who the fuck they are.

>>15885419

The free market is simply an automatic way to prioritize resources. The reason why economics people get so bent out of shape about price controls or market regulation is because fucking with the natural supply and demand in any way hurts the free market's capacity to act as a natural director of optimum resource priority.

But if i am the entire work force then we can just take the price and demand as being like what you call guidelines rather than actual rules. Because if for instance i discern that the actual need for a product is higher than the profitable production of it, i can just reorganize the work more based on need than cost for that particular industry. Since i provide all my own needs through my own workers, i don't run into problems like farms being unable to run at maximum productivity because it makes the price go too low to be profitable. Since i'm all of the workers, we can fully utilize all of the resources without regard to it's theoretical profitability.

>>15885428
>the free market's capacity to act as a natural director of optimum resource priority
Doesn't exist in the span of a human lifetime because without regulation there's a race to the bottom damaging our wellbeing and destroying our environment before the market correct itself.
>if for instance i discern that the actual need for a product is higher
Your discernment will be played like a fiddle and lead to a game theoretical dilemma. For example a population will grow to what resources can sustain so you will pretend that resource capacity is lower than it really is but they know that you're pretending and will not stop reproducing until they die of starvation and homelesness.
So with or without market regulation either way we'll hurt ourselves.

and your example gets weirder still, and this really ties into an important point I want to make as I've already seen discussions in the media on this topic, as there already are quite a few fucking companies dabbling in mind upload tech, mind scanning tech, and there's ZERO FUCKING CONCERT OR EVEN MENTION of some of the implications for the scanee.
now, to build a clone for you example means to first scan you. now, here there be fucking dragons.
take the following example. scan you, build you a clone, then you ded. if we ask you, the only you remaining, the clone, it's you, who made it.
if we scan you, and you go out of the scanning facility that day and you get ran over, and we assemble you from scan, you WILL FREAK THE FUCK OUT first and foremost, because for some reason, YOU WERE FUCKING EXPECTING TO GET BACK HOME when you opened your eyes. not collapse a reality where YOU FUCKING DIED and got rebuilt between closing your eyes and opening them.
whenever you get scanned, you might suddlenly collapse a reality where previous you wiped a few times, it's now year 2077 and whatever else. you weren't expecting that, for some reason. this must imply that whenever you get scanned, there's serious chances (You) don't go back home bro. which I think it's something whoever gets scanned, should know and understand, before getting scanned. atm it's treated like "it doesn't mean anything"
so yeah it's not easy and intuitive to explain what happens if we clone you, it's a bit of a mess, depends on perspective and shit

>>15885522 me
>>15885302

>>15885522
With regards to unbridled technological advancement: after three decades I feel like I've been watching a mandelbrot set: a sort of hypnotic trick to make me think there is progress. A decade ago AI could take our job anytime soon. Still hasn't happened. After scaring the millennials now the zoomers have fallen for the same fear mongering yet they use AI to create pictures of shitting Indians. You can't expect me to take tech talkers seriously anymore.

>>15885554
neither do I. I don't. most of them have no idea what the fuck they are talking about, apart from some very specific tech thing. but they do talk a lot of bullshit.
what I now know, and can pretty safely say, is that at this very moment the brain scan thing is at least being looked at. there's already a few companies trying a bunch of shit, to keep the brain intact and extract as much info as possible, "after death". they are also trying non-invasive routes, where scanee goes home after. scanning tech itself already seems to have quite a few options for seemingly (!) enough resolution for what would theoretically (!) be needed to capture all that you are. and if you reaaaally think about it..that's kinda the only thing you need to get your foot in the door as it were. to me it seems to be preeeetty fucking close, especially with the whole agi bullshit we supposedly now have. just considering this tech, a bit more matured and efficiently applied could make 100% full brain scan possible. statistically for plebs it's still not great, but if you have money you might have a real shot at getting your ass insta-beemed into the future where you're reassembled. with a lot of asterisks and disclaimers lmao. but theoretically it should work.

>>15885585
Wasn't there a news article about a company mishandling frozen bodies? I wouldn't count on anything but people will pay a lot of money for a chance to survive. Worrying about the future is a distraction anyway. If we fully live here and now and drop death instantly then we have not suffered death or dying. Waiting in a hospital bed for death to come: that's really scary.

>>15885625
dang, that frozen body shit really is some freaky primitive shit. info is locked into the structure, and in serious danger of degrading. and in almost-active state. that method seems medieval to me, it's the best word to describe freezing. which could work in theory and maybe even in practice. in this sense those might be the first lucky fuckers who teleport in the future. well you know, at least the still unfrozen ones kek.

>>15885627 me
the still frozen ones

>>15884605
>No it's just the patterns your brain has learned and memorized.
But without the exact same DNA, the body would be another, no?
>There is no you or your form, just shit in the universe coming together and processing information
I asked if it's not guaranteed that the "shit coming together and processing information" which is my DNA, brain, etc would be reconstitued. Because maybe it wouldn't be, no?
>>15884612
Ty
>>15884983
Dreadful
>>15885139
Wdym

>>15885662
>But without the exact same DNA, the body would be another, no?
not him but maybe different DNA means different lenses? the result of that interpreted DNA is what gives rise to the whole thing. don't think there's any direct link between your DNA and your sense of self, as much as it's between the DNA's resulting built material structures are tied to your experience. but that does not imply you are not possible without DNA, as long as the very same structures that enable you exist. somehow. equivalent tech. whatever. but I'm just speculating.

Sometimes right after I wake up, there's a moment where I'm conscious but forgot about who or what I am, & it's pure awareness. There is an immense feeling of peace and contentment. Then I realize I just woke up and all that disappears. I really hope death is just like pure awareness like that, it would make sense why NDEs are so pleasant

>>15885817
how would you experience peace or NDEs without a functioning biology/brain? there's nothing to experience.

>>15885662
>But without the exact same DNA, the body would be another, no?
Even with the exact same basic makeup the body might be the same but the mind, without any premade experiences, would be different, so in essence it's still a different being
>I asked if it's not guaranteed that the "shit coming together and processing information" which is my DNA, brain, etc would be reconstitued. Because maybe it wouldn't be, no?
With the exact same parameters? The probability is probably less than 0, too random, reality is too chaotic for that, but even if it was a 1:1 copy of "you" it would still be a separate being with its own experience.

time travel Bible explains

It's like a sleep you don't dream.

>>15885826
>it would still be a separate being with its own experience.
that's a bunch of religious bullshit. you'll never let that go no matter what info pops up.
there's no link to unique ID, you're spouting nonsense.
you worked backwards to this position, it's what results so you can still believe the rest of the bullshit you believe. don't act like it's not like that.

>>15885842
But that's how it is, it's a separate body

>>15885860
but not a different self, it's the same, just that it's a possible him.
>but I can only be this
nope. you automatically are ANY of that body. you don't have a choice. there's concepts you'll never be able to understand, that is a fact based on our biology. now that we've established you can fail to grasp concepts, it might come easier to you to accept that you might not get it. and there's no shame in that. sadly it doesn't end there, you will need to act primitive about it.

>>15885860
and the fact that you have no idea which one is which, neither does he, means you are wrong.
at most you'd get to call it IF you'd have fucking proof of something unieque that serves as a unique ID and ties (for some reason, other than religious) your present material structure, which is always in continuous change, for other atoms, and makes it so when this collection of random atoms (not unique permanent ones in your structure) is you and it surely expires at 100 years old and you die and there's no possible way of getting this you back.
that is mental disease resulted from dogma dude, that's not fucking scientific reasoning.

>>15885829
I've never seen a more satanic webm

>>15885874
>but not a different self
Except it is, all your memories, experiences, any concept of "self" is just chemical reactions in this form, a 1:1 clone of you would have the same memories, but it's a separate body and thus a separate being

>>15885898
I think you're replying to the wrong person, dude, read my posts again

>>15885905
no, it's the same being on a different road than before. it's really not complicated. but I know where it hurts for you, and why

>>15885922
All beings are the same on different roads, dummy, there is fundamentally no difference between you or anything else, it's only the path which separates you

no sane human can argue they are not the very same thing if there's no difference between them. if there's nothing you can point at as different you cannot logically say it's something else, unless you are literally crazy. you wouldn't even know who "the original" one is, if you cannot tell which one is which it's all in your fucking mind, it's not real, it's a fake story you are telling yourself. you cannot say it's different but not show how. point at the fucking difference, what is it?

>>15885929
if you add genes to your statement you are right. else we'd be identical looking

>>15885931
This has nothing to do with genes nigga, you lack understanding of what you are and the reality you exist in

>>15885947
genes heavily modulate your experiences. you can't ignore them. they have a serious say in who we are, as individual. they and the path are equally as responsible for who you now are.

>>15882708
It’s a hypno therapist that used hypnosis to recover traumatic child hold memories. Well apparently he found out some people would regress to a past life, so he started exploring those past lives and found out all these similarities with the afterlife and how it all works. It’s an interesting read.

>>15885965
yeah it's like our brains are similar and they bullshit us the same way. couldn't possibly be that. such an outrageous wild claim that conveniently explains it

>>15883010
Reincarnation is the machinery of the universe. Get used to it, you’re here forever.

>>15885962
This has nothing to do with genes, you need to wake up and open your eyes

>>15885977
yeah bro at some point it does seem we are *essentially* the same. the same thing as in. I get it, all of us is the same retard on various paths, with different lenses.
sadly this doesn't seem to change much in others, and is not something that you could explain to more primitive people. and realistically speaking, there's like a bunch of them and very few who'd get the bigger picture.

If you wanna get depressed watch this interview with a 97 year old man. The guy even wrote about death in his youth. He is basically alone, needs help for everything and feels like he didn't learn a thing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qX6NztnPU-4

>>15885969
Keep telling yourself that bud

>>15885930
>if there's nothing you can point at as different you
Your philosophy is contradictory. I understand that we are empty like the eye of the storm is empty. The eye / I is an appearance of what the whole universe is doing...
...
...
at this particular point in space-time. We are all an empty appearance but at different points. Some points have higher metacognition and differently configured motivation systems (fear / desire, pain / pleasure, punishment / reward) than other points. Therefore the universe appears as an npc here, a sadist there and so on. You still don't understand the middle way, the seeing that we're not one and we are not many, no duality and no nonduality.