/sci/ - Science & Math

it never happened, there were no witnesses to those "experiments" other than the author. only ifls tier low iqs are gullible enough to believe in that fairy story

>>15664448
rats are too stupid to devise an organizational system that accounts for changes brought by post-scarcity. it's the literal equivalent of aliens giving us ultra advanced tech.
rats played by the only rules they ever knew.

>>15664465
t. roomtemp commie

>>15664480
pretty sure they also don't like me

>>15664448
Those are just rats in a lab, why it shouldn't collapse?

>>15664492
infinite ressources

>>15664494
rats behavior is adapted for scarcity. their whole strategy arsenal works in that circumstance only.

>>15664494
just look at any nouveau riche, many lottery winners wipe out after. their strategies are no adapted for that environment. those who can't adapt wipe out, in all sorts of ways.

>>15664448
Female rats rights.

>>15664448
It's literally fake

>>15664448
Because they didn't create a utopia.
What they actually created was the rodent equivalent of a housing project.
The results actually make sense when you think about it in those terms.

>the Tower of Babel

>Why did the society that built it collapse?

This is how it's meant to happen anon. "Utopias" like in that study (I disagree with them being called Utopias, but we'll go with it) always collapse. What goes up, must come down. The state of the "Rat Utopia" is just the zenith. Know whenever you see a "utopia," that a decline will follow soon after.

>>15664465
Given unlimited food, most people will eat themselves to death

>>15664975
Tower of babel failing was on god

never replicated
wasn't even a real experiment

>>15664494
Except space.
It was a close packing of rats.

>>15664871
Only good post ITT. They were overcrowded and stressed because their housing was designed by a human who didn't understand what rodents need. They need to be in a shelter or near walls because their eyesight is bad and open spaces stress them out. They would fight for space near the walls and the least dominant would be forced out into the middle where there's nowhere to hide. It wasn't a utopia, it was hell. They couldn't die because there was plenty of food and water and no predators which means their day was constant conflict and stress with no challenge or reward.

>>15664448
>Lone females retreated to isolated nesting boxes on penthouse levels.
>Other males, a group Calhoun termed “the beautiful ones,” never sought sex and never fought—they just ate, slept, and groomed, wrapped in narcissistic introspection.
Sounds like us /sci/sister

>>15664448
Most of the mice were defective for some reason. They were defective enough that females didn't want to breed with the defective males, but still functioning enough to allow the defective males to prevent breeding with the healthy males.

>>15664448
It has nothing to do with the crowding: the cats in Pottenger's cat food experiment died out all the same, without the crowding:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFkR0w-3h74

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSuXP0r7jIE

Both poisoned their animals with iron. Iron is especially insidious because the effects of its excess isn't that much the direct poisoning, but that it blocks the transport of other nutrients. They can't get absorbed, can't be shared with the young, and some of the blocked nutrient also regulate its absorption, so the worse it gets, the worse it gets, resulting in a deathly spiral that may take a couple of generations to fully manifest.

>>15665114
are you implying that if they weren't poisoned they would have eventually launched their first satellite into orbit?

>>15664453
Fucking retard.

>>15665137
I guess not, but they wouldn't get sick or die out.

>>15665137
Notice you can see the same shrinkage in people. When you look at old photos, silent movies, a lot of people have enormous faces compared to most people today.

>>15665152
would they die if they get overcrowded? how crowded can they live without getting sick/dying.

>>15664448
>Mice found themselves born into a world that was more crowded every day, and there were far more mice than meaningful social roles. With more and more peers to defend against, males found it difficult and stressful to defend their territory, so they abandoned the activity. Normal social discourse within the mouse community broke down, and with it the ability of mice to form social bonds. The failures and dropouts congregated in large groups in the middle of the enclosure, their listless withdrawal occasionally interrupted by spasms and waves of pointless violence. The victims of these random attacks became attackers. Left on their own in nests subject to invasion, nursing females attacked their own young. Procreation slumped, infant abandonment and mortality soared.

2 problems, the first is maladaptive behavior becoming tradition

The second is midwits, their roles in life has been tightly linked with procreation, they've been evolutionarily entrained to believe to sex women must have a job and a job gives them the right to sex women.

For the high wits, the "beautiful ones", just look at /sci/

>>15665051
soience morons will believe in it regardless because of their moronic soience religion confirmation bias

>>15665169
I'm saying it isn't because of the crowding, it's because they got poisoned with iron. The cooking was likely the cause because he used iron pots, and the mice were likely fed feed supplemented with iron.

>>15664448
> why did it collapse
women.

>>15664453
big if true. Run it again and post results.
>>15664465
Did you seriously say this unironically without looking at human society?

>>15665173
>overpopulation bad
>"Beautiful ones" do not reproduce
So you're saying trick midwits into thinking they are the "beautiful ones" and we have no overpopulation? Problem solved

>>15665069
Sounds like modern human civilization.

>>15665173
>>15664465
>>15664871
>>15665069
You missed the entire point of it. YOU ARE THE RATS. It's not "Let's give the rats everything they truly NEED for happiness" It's "Let's give the rats everything they WANT and see if they become happy" The rats might NEED social interaction, but they WANT food (Just like /sci/posters NEED friends, but WANT cheetos & 4chan).

It's not supposed to be "le communist paradise where everyone is happy." It's supposed to make a point about & draw parallels with human cities. About Industrial society. About abundance. About deterioration of morality & life quality as a result of it. About the collapse of civilization. No, you certainly don't understand that the rat utopia is but a microcasm of the consequences of the Industrial revolution in human societies and how they have been a disaster for mankind. How you, just like the rats, have everything you WANT, but nothing you truly NEED.

>The Industrial Revolution and its consequences have been a disaster for the human race. They have greatly increased the life-expectancy of those of us who live in “advanced” countries, but they have destabilized society, have made life unfulfilling, have subjected human beings to indignities, have led to widespread psychological suffering (in the Third World to physical suffering as well) and have inflicted severe damage on the natural world. The continued development of technology will worsen the situation. It will certainly subject human beings to greater indignities and inflict greater damage on the natural world, it will probably lead to greater social disruption and psychological suffering, and it may lead to increased physical suffering even in “advanced” countries.

It's over for you Industrial rats. You don't even realize that YOU ARE THE RATS in the study.

Remember, YOU ARE THE RATS.

>>15665285
Food is a need, retard.
Didn't read the rest of your spergout

>>15665051
A similar experiment was done on deer and had the same results.

https://www.geo.arizona.edu/Antevs/nats104/00lect21reindeer.html

>>15665285
>life was better in the past
what is the name of this brain disease?

>>15665297
>In the late winter of 1963-64, in association with extreme snow accumulation, virtually the entire population of 6,000 reindeer died of starvation.
>

>>15665318
they lost their ability to manage and get by during hard times. many such cases

>>15665306
Enlightenment.

>>15665289
>Food is a need, retard

>>15665280
Yes it is. Civilization collapsed once before, when people invented iron, started cooking in it, and deteriorated from the poisoning. The "sea peoples" are either a mistranslation, or they looked unfamiliar to the people because of the skull deterioration, like with the cats. They looked unfamiliar, so they were assumed to be from distant lands, when in fact they were native populations who cooked in iron.

See the bizarre argumentation in https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7882371/ and in file. " It's hard, it's hard, the body fails to absorb iron for so many reasons and people find solluble iron repulsive, we need to hide it so that people are willing to eat it." It's ridiculous.
>>15665306
The world sucks, because the people are ill.

>>15665306
It's called Maga and I've heard it's usually terminal.

>>15665375
>People can live without food

>>15665385
>The world sucks, because the people are ill.
there's a lot of ways to navigate whatever is coming. just because rats and deer are wiping out post scarcity doesn't mean we will. I also use post scarcity not like some political dog whistle or something, it's a short phrase which perfectly describes the situation, if you have alternatives that are not politically charged and two word max do share them.
I think it is more likely that morons like you will NEED for everyone to wipe out, and might do somthing retarded about it. doomers are pretty sus from this point of view.

>>15665404
Maybe you could read the rest of my post.

>>15665392
>People can't live without 20,000 calories a day

>>15665318
>repeat experiment
>get entirely different results
yep, that confirms that the first experiment was legit

>>15664448
Basically rats are meant to live in large open spaces.
This was a prison for them.

>>15665421
That's not it. One of the points of John Calhoun's mouse experiments was to take away the threat of starvation and see where that goes.
(Where it went was the population was traumatized by overcrowding so severely it became completely overtaken by autists that weren't interested in sex at all. This is even if sex were made available to them with mice from outside the experiment. Male and female both affected.)
(It's applicable to humans in a vague way, but the details of it get distorted very easily.)

>>15665285
retard the entire point is that communist collectivist ideology like rat utopia will end up in hyper dense hellhole.
The rats turned communal eating into a tradition, to the point they cannot eat without the presence of others.
The rats devolved into beings that traditionally must be around each other yet also hate each other.

I mean just look at Asia, a hyperdense hellhole where social functions are nothing more than transactions and yet these insects still need to be around each other in close proximity.

>>15665065
The rats collected in dense communities, Large parts of the habitats were never used though and they never reached their theoretical carrying capacity.

>>15665201
>>15664516
seek help

>>15664448
>put animals under highly unnatural and stressful conditions
>they start to behave strangely
>therefore Malthusianism
Peak science.

>>15665901
Seek friends in real life, roast.

>>15665947
Make a pact
You can take him on a date
But

>>15665554
>hellhole where social functions are nothing more than transactions
You are describing the west.

>>15666034
The West has become a commie rat dystopia.

>>15665306
Being correct?

>>15665522
There is no evidence that John Calhoun's mouse experiments ever took place other than fantastical stories told by John Calhoun

>>15665906
>Give animal infinite resources
>Their lifestyle becomes unnatural and stressful
>They start to behave strangely and can't reproduce anymore
>Reeeeeeeeeeeeeee Malthus can't be right, the world has to work how I want it to work

>>15668036
>>15665906
Multiple issues:
>call it utopia
>yet it is a prison with a confined space
>only thing that is provided is "effortless" sustainment

No control such as the decision to leave the utopia into nature and give rats the chance to live on their own.

It's like pretending that people would just be happy when you put them in a concrete prison city without nature where you constantly have to touch elbows with other people, without any chance of having privacy or beeing alone for a while.

This is not a "utopia".
This is a comfortable prison.

This experiment works under the premise, that we forbid the participants to work for their own food and resources and challanges of nature.
There is not even the chance of living "natural" and therefore no choice.
This experiment excludes the freedom of the decision to leave comfort behind to be free and have to deal with natural challenges and risks as exchange.
The meme of "there is only the option to live in population dense areas".
It like pretending that people have no choice but to live in new york.

>>15668178
>The meme of "there is only the option to live in population dense areas".
This is basically correct though.

>>15668181
Fuck no.
Did you ever left your basement?
Did a drive Through the country?

There are Vast amounts of areas, with no humans whatsoever.
Small villages etc.

And a fucking buckload of retardedly used farmland such as gigantic monocultures of Corn for High fructose corn sirup or "bio fuel" or "sneed oils".

>>15668178
>>15668229
This is an extremely senile take that lacks basic knowledge of how the world works. No, you can't just abandon cities and have everybody live as a farmer. You would have the same result that way. Collapse of civilization and massive die off.

>>15665173
>For the high wits, the "beautiful ones", just look at /sci/
the median /sci/ poster is dumber than the median of board medians on 4chan, and may actually at this point be dumber than the median 4chan poster

>>15665285
that's a bingo, anon is not a faggot. you can see it happening in our society already. when I was a kid in grade school they taught "the customer is always right." This was the mantra because a customer was something hard to come by and it cost something like 3 times as much to try and get a new customer as it did to simply retain a current customer. this no longer matters however and you see it in brands resentment of their own clientele (bud light for example, they were willing to piss in their customers faces as "hicks" in order to pander to trannies and leftists for????? reasons?). They also didnt apologize like they should have because they think you are just an idiot and the general population are idiots with short memories (and they are mostly right) and it would just blow over. It is now just as easy to get new customers because there are just so many people and everything is impersonal. Game companies release games with shittons of bugs in them. Why? Because you will buy it, millions will buy it. Movies are complete trash and make a billion dollars on the name alone (onions wars and marvel faggotry) Why? Because there are so many idiots who will pay for it! You dont need relationships with customers anymore, you dont have to tailor to them because they are easily replaced. Over crowding and the lack of responsibility due to resource abundance leads to apathy and degeneracy, it isnt rocket science. Anyone with a luke warm IQ should be able to understand this

>>15668878
That's only because the median sci poster is a bot and only few boards have bots as their median poster.

Because the rats didn't torture every single genius / excessively high IQ rat to death, which would increase birth rates in any species.

>>15664871
>What they actually created was the rodent equivalent of a housing project.
Looks more like a roofed prison yard.w/o the cells

>>15668900

>Anyone with a luke warm IQ should be able to understand this

Inb4 terminal stage of apathy and degeneracy. ;)

>>15668984
Yes, a housing society, an open roof prison. Whatever you want to call it, it describes life in big cities quite well.

>>15669127
>life in big cities
Was using monthly pass to go by public ferry into sundown and having a stay in a beautiful park part of the experiment too?

>>15669369
Suburbanites and /pol/tards think every metropolis is some combo of the Kowloon walled city and section 8 Detroit.

>>15668901
>being so emotionally triggered that you're driven to paranoid persecutory delusions
you are a low iq emotional creature

>>15664448
I'd imagine severe inbreeding and lack of selection pressure, if they had started with more genetic diversity, say 100 wild rats, the population might have climbed a lot higher. It's just convenient this experiment was only performed this one way because then jews ect can use it to justify population control.

>>15665114
What i'm getting is that jews put shit in pasteurized milk at the time to poison the goym.

>>15664448
They didn't have anything to do, do you see a single running wheel or climbing rope or looping tunnel in that thing?

>>15664448
I declare this experiment as not relevant due to the way it was set up. it shall never be mentioned again now that the matter is settled.

>>15665285
>"Let's give the rats everything they truly NEED for happiness" It's "Let's give the rats everything they WANT and see if they become happy"
No, its not about want at all, they just gave them what they needed to survive: food, water, and shelter.

>>15665413
Nothing is a need if you conflate it with its own excess.

>>15664448
>why did it collapse

Same reason Industrialized World is collapsing.
Give someone everything they need and they stop trying for anything.

>>15668873
>This is an extremely senile take that lacks basic knowledge of how the world works

Like how the "education" turns people into working consoomer slaves which only know consoom and work in high density population areas?

Not everyone has to become a "farmer", what a retarded take.
Small dispersed communities like it was before the Agricultural Adjustment Act.
They literally construct the world in a way that people assume the world works in the way of "touching elbows everyday".
They even tell you. They created BBC documentaries in which they even forshadow this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYAke_z3RVU


You imply that the only option is: Become a farmer yourself.
Ignoring the requirement of handymen and worksmenship, the option of having small community based familiarity and cooperation.
You imply the only sustainable way of living is:
>dense living
>no community based cooperation
>you can only live from the generous big conglomerates (let it be big food, big chem etc)
>you must live of top down regulated mass industry services
>you cannot have dispersed communities and non-burocratic low friction exchange
>you must have a amazon warehouse in your area
>you cannot live outside population dense cities
>the only option is killing of people to reduce population density
>humans cannot have nature based and cooperative releationship with nature
>there is only the option to destroy the world by existing, because humans are retarded
>there must be top down regulated rules to destroy resources to ensure "fairness"

>>15668036
>infinite resources

>tiny little box
>infinite

>>15669830
With iron.

>>15665285
I like Ted but his followers are some of the most insufferable faggots on the planet. God I want to beat your head in with a shovel

>>15670479
>Agricultural Adjustment Act.
They created the problem themselves by buying out surplus food, which incentivized farmers to produce as much as possible, because the government would always buy.
>>no community based cooperation
Tbey hate society and see this as the most severe opression imaginable. It's outright evil to them.
>>you must live of top down regulated mass industry services
Similar reason. They are asocial, so they would have no way of knowing who is honest and who isn't.

Is this iron thing real a real thing or just one schizo babbling?
t. Only lurk here

>>15664448
>DUDE MILGRAM
>DUDE STANFORD
>DUDE UNIVERSE 25
These popsci bullshit "experiments" are like catnip for gullible midwits. Each and every single one of them has been set up to provide an easily sensationalizable and talking point-friendly result. Like science made for science news reporting.

>>15664448
Seething ITT is straight up unreal

>>15670495
how about I pull my dick out and let you suck it instead you little bitch faggot

>>15668900
>Anyone with a luke warm IQ should be able to understand this
That excludes 70% of /sci/ then

>>15664453
It happened. Here's evidence.

>>15670529
https://www.zdnet.com/article/physics-explains-why-there-is-no-information-on-social-media/

>>15664448

We now know that rat's do get "bored" and do assign a sense of "value" to something based on it's scarcity

>>15664448
They had nothing to do

>I WANT TO BELIEVE SOCIETY IS THE RAT UTOPIA
>BEING INFINITLY CYNCIAL AND UNHAPPY MAKES ME WISER THAN YOU

>>15664448
I don't think it collapsed? It reached a steady state, miserable as it was. Some of the rats reproduced.

>>15671108
They stopped reproducing altogether, after a certain amount of weeks Calhoun stopped recording live births. This persisted even after the rats were removed from the "rat utopia"

>>15665306
We are today in a completely novel place historically. The level of complexity and population density today is without precedent in any written record. As we are in completely unmapped territory in an historical sense, the long-term stability of our position as such is questionable, and any path downward would be extremely painful, it is natural and normal for people to be wary of this brave new world we have today. If anything it is frightening that more of them aren't.

>>15671135
If he would have kept on, would their population diminish to one fitting their environment? And be followed by another boom cycle?
Or would it have leveled out at some Malthusian level of barely tolerable misery?

>>15671142
>>15671108
The last male rats died. When he ended the experiment there were only female rats left. They were at the point of certain extinction. I don't think the rats could have maintained a population "fitting to their environment" even before that. The single biggest misconception about the experiment seems to be that the problem was primarily overpopulation. The rats lived in a few densely populated parts of the enclosure and were locally overpopulated. But large parts of the enclosure were left empty for some reason and it never actually reached its theoretical carrying capacity. They had more space to spread out into, but never did.

>>15664448
Jew Rats

>>15671350
Based context giver.
>The single biggest misconception about the experiment seems to be that the problem was primarily overpopulation.
That is interesting because if you watch the old videos about it on youtube this is invariably what is harped on. No wonder given this was the heyday of Population Bomb hysteria. It always seemed to me there was something more important and fundamental going on. These are animals who nature had bred to struggle for mates and conquer territory and instead they were put into an environment meant for passive consumption.

>>15671350
Sounds like a couple of coastal cities I know.

>>15664453
a project like this could be conducted for almost nothing. anyone making 2k a year can do it, it happened, they're pictures.
>>15664465
your speaking without a bit of knowledge. boomer detected.

>>15664975
you get it.

>>15665049
fr nocap

>>15671365
the male rats would get buttfucked to survive. we see this with the rise of fembois and trans. the result will be the same. but unlike the rats, there are 100 more variables. the mechanic stays the same. resource guarding creates maladaptive long term choices that affect population.

>>15671365
>These are animals who nature had bred to struggle for mates and conquer territory and instead they were put into an environment meant for passive consumption.
I think this was part of the problem. The rats didn't really have anything to do to keep their minds busy and they're fairly intelligent animals. Despite all the attention these experiments have received over the years, I don't think anyone knows for certain what all went wrong though.

>>15665285
Perfect example of too much iq for his own good.

>>15671719
part of the reason we're on /sci/

>>15671725
you're low iqs

>>15671365
>people must fight for survival, or they degenerate

What kind of mental retardation makes you believe such bullshit?

>>15672620
What kind of retardation made you read that in my post? Go back to twitter or kill yourself.

>>15668900
>yes anon, YOU ARE RIGHT!
>and that's because CONSUMERISM HAS FAILED
retard

>>15665522
>>15664465
>>15665173
>>15665289
>>15670477
>>15671365
The takeaway from the experiment was that if you provide organisms with stimuli removed from their original context, it will be a disaster. In this case it was endless food and protection from predators in a limited space. Things eventually went wrong. You can get a more immediate effect if you give the rats stronger stimuli even in limited quantities, which will turn them obese and nonfunctional
You can increase the quantity or the strength of a stimulus and destroy a biological system, humans are currently doing both to themselves at once

>>15672620
even though you misread it, that's correct. life is an equilibrium between challenge and reward and if it gets too much of either it breaks down

>>15668878
/sci/ is almost as full of schizos peddling their pet theories as /x/, which is a board dedicated entirely to that purpose
it's fucking over

>>15672709
Good post.

>>15672638
The past sentence seems to imply that.

What made you think that the place reduced the struggle for mates anyway?

>>15664448
>Humans take rats out of their natural environment
>Humans choose which needs the rats want
>Colony fails
WHaT HaPpEneD?!

iirc calhoun himself said that the rats are not a good analogy to humans, because humans can create what he described as a much more intricate social network in which to exist, but which we know now is a fractal social network.

>>15672694
it is a simple bell graph you learn in economics 101, when the number of something goes up (humans) the value of each individual item goes down (relationships, trust, decency). imagine being so stupid you cant understand 101 freshman level soft science concepts

>>15673430
All schools of economics are insane ideological grifts
>if there are more people, you have to compete with more people
>that's why we need a central bank!!
By bringing economics into an ecological discussion you're not just guaranteeing you'll miss the bigger picture, but also replacing rigorous concepts with dogshit ones in your analysis

>>15673450
the level of autism on this board truly astounds me and often. If you cant understand how what I said is applicable to this conversation you are literally a useless human being because your mind is complete and utter trash. The irony of of making a post like this while talking about someone else "missing the big picture" jfc this board is filled with literal autists, it isnt just a meme

>>15673450
it is called the law of diminishing returns btw and wtf are you on about with central banks you ass blasted schizo retard? kys retarded ape

>>15673195
>muh socioeconomics

>>15673279
This "intricate social network" isn't working.

>>15665206
That would be illegal. To run an animal experiment you must run it past an ethics review board, and to replicate even a potentially fake study which would result in the death of hundreds of rats for no reason would never pass