/sci/ - Science & Math

What is your definition of life?

>>15594339

why are jews the only religion that support abortion? Christians, Muslim, bhuddhists and hindu generally dont support abortion

I wasn't asked

>>15594379
Jews are exclusive, I admire that aspect of their religion.

Christians and Muslims believe in out-breeding the opposition, like animals.

The structures we know are required for a conscious experience, ie the reason we value human life and the thing we use to determine if a person is dead despite the body being alive, start to exist and become active at 20-24 weeks.
There's never going to be a scientific answer for when or why you should value something, as there is no "good" particle or "bad" particle.
However, if you have an axiom (I value sapience), you can use science to figure out where exactly your line should be drawn.

>I value human life -> because life itself is intrinsically precious -> animals are living -> become vegan
Or
>I value human life -> because human life is intrinsically precious -> human cells are alive -> masturbation and failed implantation kill living human cells -> 100% of the population commits murder -> become insane
Or
>I value human life -> because humans have a unique conscious experience -> this experience becomes impossible without X -> X does not appear until a certain time -> I do not value human life before or after X -> I go on living normally

You have to choose one of these or your moral system is ungrounded and incoherent.

>>15594339
According to science, life begins after grad school. Abortions before that point are all fair game.

>>15594339
>Is there an official scientific definition of when life begins?
Yeah, when the first micro-organisms appeared, over 3.5 billion years ago.

Imagine thinking "life begins" when two gametes fuse or when an embryo is formed or whatever, what an incoherent notion.

>It seems like science has no trouble at all determining when life ends
That's right, it's not too hard to spot a dead cell or organism generally, although stuff like spores and cryptobiosis/anabiosis complicate definitions a little.

conception
simple as

>>15594339
why do you niggers hate this so much? it's literally state sanctioned eugenics against blacks, latinos, and degenerates

Jesus, this board has turned basically /pol/ 2.
First, it's consciousness and not "life" what matters (every cell is alive... are you murdering whenever you fap?)
Secondly, consciousness PHYSICALLY CANNOT EXIST BEFORE WEEK 24 WHEN THE CORTEX FORMS. Afterwards it *might* exist but we're not sure.
And btw, artificial insemination discards embryos so ban it too, right?

>>15594339
>Is there an official scientific definition of when life begins?
Metabolism + unique genome

>Atheists
You would think their correlations would be more random if it were simply a "lack of belief in god".

>>15594339
>religion, not gender, is the best predictor of views on abortion
but yet the idpol brainlets still insist the prolife movement is just evil white patriarchal men who get off on oppressing women

>>15594468
>Are you murdering when you kill individual single cells your body manufactured using only your own DNA
You don't even understand the question. This is science, not ethics.

The zygote is human. The zygote is distinct from other humans. That is not scientifically disputable. What we want to do with that information isn't a question of science.

>>15594339
Just as age is an arbitrary line in the sand in terms of consent or adulthood agreed upon by whatever society you live in, so is any line we draw in an attempt define when abortions are morally right/wrong.

I'll say this though, it still boggles my mind how religious our populations are. I think about religion/faith 0 times a day, but there are people who consult whatever god their parents told them about to make everyday decisions. Whatever I guess.

>>15594379
jews are matriarchal, they also support genital mutilation of males

when the penis goes in the vagene

>>15594339
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/social-sciences/autopoiesis
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/autopoiesis

At the basic level, the system has to have set boundaries between itself and outside. Autopoetic systems have boundaries, like our skin, or the tree's bark or the cell's skin. The internal system has its own host of activities.

>>15594617
Which is really weird when you consider that all the biblical ones were strictly patriarchal.
So who exactly are modern jews?

>>15594437
I see no wrong with abortion, honestly having Black children be raise by hoodrats and coal burners is a fate worse than death.

>>15594379
Jews support abortion for thee.

>>15594389
Middle argument is incorrect. Masturbation only affects haploid cells, not diploid "human" cells. Therefore it does not kill any cells. Failed implantation is just an accident so you can't claim that is murder
Also top argument is incorrect because plants are alive. So you would have to choose to not eat anything
Tl;dr you are a midwit who doesn't know anything

>>15594497
>The zygote is human. The zygote is distinct from other humans.
What if it splits, can you abort (or murder) one of the twins as long as the other stays alive? Is that how it works?

>>15594497
yeah, you're retarded and moved the goalposts - again. Back to >>>/pol/, chudcel.

>>15594339
>It seems like science has no trouble at all determining when life ends

It literally does. Iirc a person can supposedly think, hear etc. For a while after medical death.

In parasitism it is often that it weakens its host so it cannot sufficiently combat it.

>>15594807
source?

>>15594379
The actual answer is that fetuses aren't recognized as alive until 30 days after birth under Jewish law, which is a hold-over from when infant mortality was high.

>>15594807
>after medical death.
hearts stops

>>15594379
Abortion is supported in most forms of Islam in the way way that abortion is supported in Orthodox Judaism
Hinduism is way too diverse and decentralised to say anything about abortion

Personally I support post-birth abortions so the issue of 'when life begins' is really irrelevant to me
I don't believe in the sacred, inviolable right to life

>>15594468
Gametes only have half of a valid human genome. Try again, disingenuous moron.

>>15595050
if the heart stopping was enough to cause death then severed heads wouldn't be able to look around and move their mouths

death happens the very moment the information that is you gets lost.
we need to start making this distinction because technology will force us to make it. so far, your body going to shit and your information getting lost always coincided. we'll be able to separate the two, and not that far into the future.
the issue with death is that you don't get to interact with that person, ever. we even came up with a saying to emphasize that:
>dead is dead
that is meant to convey that once dead there's no come back. this is the actual death, the not coming back part, not the body getting all fucked up part.

>>15596052
If I copy all the information from my brain and put it into a robot or a computer that isn't me.

>blue /pol/

>>15596017
only if you think the definition of "life" is "look around and move your mouth"

>>15596090
that's exactly you. in a human body would feel like you feel right now, it would be you, the one reading this.

>>15596010
embryos, literal embryos are discarded in in vitro fertilization. Read how it works.

t. MD

>>15594609
You consult your government and MSM since they are your religion and millions of NPCs follow whatever state says

>>15597034
This really doesn't make sense to me. Why is there higher incidence of Statism among atheists, is this just human nature?

>>15594468
i apologize for this board being full of retards

life begins at age 5 and ends at age 20

every year outside of those bounds is meaningless

>>15596105
No, it would be a separate external entity that I can observe and talk to.

>>15596787
In vitro fertilization should be as disallowed as abortion for that reason. What's your point?

>>15594468
>artificial insemination discards embryos so ban it too, right?
Yes.

>>15594402
this

>>155975600
good luck with your christian theocracy anon, will never happen and we will keep aborting fetuses, experimenting with them and destroying them. I'm in fact shown these posts to my gf and we're going to breed then abort the baby just to spite you

>>15594379
jews support the abortion of the goyim

>>15594339
>Is there an official scientific definition of when life begins?
Yes, life begins at conception.

>>15594339
>Atheists wants to abort themselves out of existence
And this is bad...how exactly?

>>15594339
>It seems like science has no trouble at all determining when life ends, forensics experts can usually determine that pretty accurately using their scientific techniques
There's controversy about that as well - when someone is entirely brain dead but their body is kept on life support, some people consider it murder to pull the plug. I like to imagine those people would be less hesitant if they had to carry that person around and share their blood, though.

>>15597756
>This is what you support.jpg

>>15597917
All babies are born atheists, so you must realise that people can change their opinions on this matter later in life.

>>15597940
>All babies are born atheists
I'm gonna need at least three peer-reviewed meta studies proving this

>>15595020
Also, Jews and the cultures near them (like Rome) practiced "exposure", which was where new mothers would ditch their kids in the wilderness to get rid of them.
The practice was widespread until Constantine banned it in the Roman world.

>>15594339
>Is there an official scientific definition of when life begins?
No, discrete categorization of continuous phenomena is done for human convenience. These boundary conditions are arbitrary creations of man created to serve man's communication needs, and do not reflect fundamental scientific truth.

>>15594339
Theres no real definition of life to begin with, other than the cell considered to be the basic "unit". In ancient times a person was considered alive as long as he could still breath, a baby wont breath until the birth (ever heard of "breath of life"?).

>>15594379
Look up Ashkenazi IQ.

>>15594339
The problem is that we are just a set of aggregates, yes this is a Buddhist concept but I mean literally, we are just a bunch of cells clinging to each other, making tissues, which gather to make organs and so on. In an holistic fashion, you could say the whole is greater than the sum of its parts, but in the end once the systems cant be set in motion again, life ceases to be. This gives both arguments for pro and anti abortion, in the end its just a moral thing and each culture will have different opinions on the matter

>>15594339
Life does not begin at conception because life isn't actually being created via sexual reproduction, it's just sophisticated cell duplication. The life we have now is the same life we had 2 billion years ago.

>>15598058
You are right, abortion or even murder doesnt matter

>>15594339
im an atheist, and i can't completely get over the fact that it seems like you're killing a baby. i would never. i wouldn't ban it in all circumstances. I might want to kill my rapists baby or terminate an unviable pregnancy. a 12 year old should be forced to carry her dads baby and raise it. Even knowing your child is going to have a severe disability might make it an understandable choice. these are anomolies though and a small percentage of abortions. Murder is usually wrong, but not always. Murder during war, for self-defense, or punishment for capital crimes is acceptable to most societies. murder doesn't seem like a good birth control method to me though, personally. Especially considering there are many other birth control options available.

>>15598101
should NOT be forced*

>>15598101
Well, no one said you had to be smart to be an atheist

>>15597034
>>15597038
Laws and governance generally follow the morality of the people that live within that state. Which in most countries are built on religious foundations anyway.

I'd argue following a government and following "god" aligns the majority of the time anyway. It's the same thing depending on where you live.

>>15594632
Basically it allowed their descendants to maintain their Jewishness when intermarrying into powerful European families. You were the duke of whatever, but you were also a Jew. It didn’t get overwritten.

>>15597998
its low

>>15594389
Or
>I value talking about more important issues than when roasties can kill their nigger spawn -> because we have numerous serious problems that are well within our technological capability to dismiss with in any number of ways -> we need to have serious discussions -> what resolves the debate on this as quickly as possible -> put it on the ballot and shut up

>>15594339
Killing a fetus is prob just as immoral as killing a pig for food. Also saves children from living with parents that never wanted them
However I also don't like women's rights...

>>15594468
>And btw, artificial insemination discards embryos so ban it too, right?
Pro-life people generally take that position, yes. In fact sometimes pro-life people pay extra to do IVF because they only want 1-2 embryos to be implanted, rather than several as is normally done with superfluous ones aborted to increase success rates, and thus might have to do many attempts for a successful pregnancy.

>>15599051
> Ashkenazim are the only Jews, let alone people, in Israel.
Dumbass.

>>15594609
I'm deeply religious and I find it extremely tiresome. Religion is a subjective experience I value, but one I can differentiate from objective (axiomatically) discussions and set aside to consider ideas. The unwillingness/inability of people, not just religious people, to set aside particular subjective perspectives to consider and discuss ideas neutrally or from different perspectives is what I find distressing.

>>15597756
>This is what you support.jpg
Womp womp.

>>15598101
>a 12 year old should be forced to carry her dads baby and raise it.
b-b-b-b-b-BASED
Woketards fear the trad-atheist chad.

>>15594468
Fertilization = a human life
You're an idiot and most of Europe has gestational limits at 7-12 weeks. Kill yourself

>>15596092
>>15594735
>muh pool

>>15594389
>>15594468
>>15596092
>post commonly held opinion that mildly goes against the democratic party platform
>AAAAHHH! STORMFRONT IS INVADING IN THEIR UFOs!
Abort yourself

just don't be a whore and you won't need an abortion
its that easy

>>15594339

>>15594389
There is no reason for why how we determine the cessation of life has to be the same way we determine death. There's an assumption of parity here that isn't a given... and feels dubious.

I call it "Temporal Event Imparity". An example would be:
> You have a pizza date scheduled at 7:00pm. Upon arriving you notice your date has not arrived yet. You sit down and the waitress appears and asks if you're ready to order, to which you reply "no, can you come back in like 2 mins I'm waiting for somebody".
In this scenario you're considering another mind not currently within the event space (who may not even show up!). Conversely:
>Luckily your date arrives in a timely manner, you two eat, hit it off, and have a great time, but then she says she has to go pick her mom up at the airport kisses you good bye and leaves. Sitting there the waitress comes over one last time and asks if you would like desert. You give your reply.
In this scenario, you no longer took another mind into consideration (your date after she left the event space for good). In this moment the only consideration you have to make is one about yourself.

Mind you this also holds true if your date leaves of says she will be back (you wouldn't consider her to have 'died' if you expect her to return into the event space, it's only after she leaves and there's no expectation of her coming back that she 'dies')

I would argue that events are vectors, and the 'direction; you enter or exit them is something that needs to be taken into consideration.

I would also argue, given what I've laid out, rather 'sapience itself', or the slick 1st order abstraction some people like to use of caring about the 'faculties that generates sapience', what we care about is actually the 2nd order abstraction of "do we ANTICIPATE that sapient faculties that can generate a sapient mind will enter the event space" (the event space being life here).

>>15594339
>Is there an official scientific definition of when life begins?
fertilization is a reasonable answer but the debate isn't actually about that
the debate is whether humans have value by virtue of having minds or if mere life is sufficient (or, separately, whether women have the right to destroy minds if their continued existence is inconvenient for them, see the violinist argument).
libs generally endorse the "women have the right to destroy minds" position, cons generally endorse the "mere life must always be protected" position, libertarians generally endorse the "only minds get rights" position

>>15599114
You just know this person understands perfectly well what "trolling" is. Which means they are being intentionally disingenuous here.

>>15599339
>Appeal to popularity
4chan has gone full normalcunt

>>15594389
>the thing we use to determine if a person is dead despite the body being alive
"Brain death" as a medical concept is literally a scam designed to let doctors harvest organs from living people so they'll be in the best condition possible for transplant. Not every country or even every state in the US even has the same definition for brain death on the books and there are plenty of instances of people being declared "brain dead" and then recovering afterward. There were even a few recent cases where patients were declared brain dead and then woke up while being cut open to have their organs removed, halting the procedure. Brain death isn't the solidly defined, irrefutable concept that it's made out to be.

>>15594379
You wouldn't believe how good a fresh fetus tastes

>>15602244
Could you link those examples of patients recovering after being declared braindead?

>>15602387
Here's a list of a bunch of them over the years with links to sources: https://kgov.com/brain-dead-patients-who-have-recovered

>>15602387
joe biden

>>15599167
jews are low iq
deal with it shlomo

>>15594339
When life begins?
Ah simple
>abortion
Oh, you mean when intelligent life becomes intelligent, or when life gains thought or physical feeling?

The problem with your question is you are taking a "simple" question" and making it more complex, without you realizing it.

But, there are 3 trimesters (about 9 months) in pregnancy, and 3 parts to each trimester, each part about 4 weeks/a month each.
The first trimester (early pregnancy), the second trimester (mid-pregnancy), and third trimester (late pregnancy).

So your question is when is it ok to end the pregnancy.
I would say within 1st trimester is fair.
But how many months 1-3? Most people would say 1-2? I think most would say closer to one vs 2. So how many weeks up to 8? That is where people might disagree?

Abortion pills work up to 11 weeks (thats after/above 8) after 1st missed period. And you can get an in-clinic abortion until 24 weeks.


And it gets more complex when we talk about childhood care, education, social security, ssi, food stamps, state pay assisted housing, and other stuff like prison/death penalty, people having guns/cops (causing death) and stuff right?

>>15603764
Oh and state health care.

We need to get rid of that, to save money, according to "half" the country.
But protect birth, even at cost of mom's life, right?

>>15603772
>even at cost of mom's life
hysterical sob story
no abortion has ever taken place due to health risk to the mother

>>15594339
>It seems like science has no trouble
that only means science is wrong. Paradoxical, don't you think?

>>15603772
USA doesn't have state health care

>>15597034
>if you aren’t religious then you MUST follow MSM
Or maybe, get this, I don’t give a shit about either. In fact most young people in the west don’t.
>>15597038
Do you have any evidence that that’s even true? Currently the most authoritarian countries in the world are generally highly religious ones. Look at Africa.

>>15601038
>appeal to contrarianism
He didnt say most popular = correct. He said people were tards for crying /pol/ for people having one of the most basic bitch opinions on abortion possible

>>15603707
Israel has a large Arab population that brings it down.

>>15599178
This pretty much.
Religion, as understand it, is similar to hypnosis or meditation, the religious experience, the thing that makes you able to believe, is an altered state of conscousness.

Which is why people are so adamant about their faith. It must be real, they have felt it.
And if it is real, then anything is justifiable, because you're saving people from eternal damnation. Nothing the world really mattets.
This is why the evangelicals are so insane and why most Christians without an emphasis on hell and the people who grasp and name the religious experience are generally somewhat sane and reasonable.

>>15594339
Late abortion is the best abortion because by then you can for sure check how the baby is doing. For instance all premature babies should be aborted, late babies also should be aborted. Ultrasound didnt check a thing and baby came out with a thing, abort it. Abortion should be legal up to a week after birth

>>15604722
>Israel has a large Arab population
Israel has a huge mix of populations. Inbred ashkenazi, smart ashkenazi, sephardic, jewish arabs, jewish persian, muslim arabs, christian slavs, and smaller minorities that dont matter either way.

>>15594339
Science books very clearly teach that life begins at conception. The abortion debate is like the death penalty debate: Can we kill humans that inconvinience us for one reason or another? My answer is "only as a last resort in self defense".

>>15605368
>Science books very clearly teach that life begins at conception.
No, they don't.

>The abortion debate is like the death penalty debate: Can we kill humans that inconvinience us for one reason or another?
They are nothing alike.
The death penalty is an issue, because the burden of proof required to do something you can't take back is too massive, 99% certainty is nowhere near enough. And even in modern times, the criminal justice system has performed significantly worse than 99% accuracy, on cases where the death penalty would be applicable.

>>15605293
Something like that. But every religious bubble is contained in a superset bubble. Recognizing hypnotic effects as a root cause raises a serious dilemma: why should there be transcendent experience at all?
Chris Langan asserts that there is a Christ shape key which allows the traversal from the religious subset to the superset. Of course, this is already heretical territory as there would be keys for other religious sets as well.
There are other theories where they present a subconscious and unconscious and the autohypnosis is crossing into the layers of the psyche. In this sense, religion is a shortcut. A set of steps to achieve this or that enlightenment.
The best way to analyze it would be to break apart features in a religion and ask why for the individual features. This will reveal subjective operating principles. One common thread is belief. Why is belief required for the transcendent experience?
There a couple obvious reasons:
1. The non-believer would not have the ability to enter the hypnotic state as they would get bored or they would find distraction. In this case, the student needs perseverance, not belief.
2. A believer is more apt to pick up the correct cue to begin the dive. All meaning is related to the core mental structure The student requires flexible imagination to proceed without belief.

There is yet another problem. Why should we find what we set out to find? The assumed best religion would be the powers of god delivered in the shortest amount of time, but somehow no belief will ever give one omniscience. Yet, many hypnotic states will apparently show the individual other things he seeks.

>>15594390
kek

>>15604676
Medicare and Medicaid

>>15594621
TNFD (Total Name Fag Death)

>>15604702
>Or maybe, get this, I don’t give a shit about either. In fact most young people in the west don’t.
Young people around me were the most ravenous about covid restrictions and mask wearing. People my age and older were just trying to go about our lives while teens and college kids harassed people over not wearing masks (or not wearing them "correctly") and whatever else. You say that young people don't give a shit, but you're wrong, they give more of a shit than any previous generation.

>>15596017
severed limbs can move, are they alive?

>>15594617
>matriarchal
lol fuck no this is like islam in this aspect
women in judaism have a very clear status, they are not allowed to sing, they are not allowed to study, not to hold sermons, etc...
>>15594379
this has nothing to do with the religion its only the american/europe mega ontological lefty jews, which is just another religion when i think about it.

>>15605934
Idiots think that Judaism passing matrilinealy to boost their numbers makes them matriarchal.

I don't care about the definition of life, ethics or morals in terms of abortion. I'm against abortion for one reason - women tell shit like "you incel chuds, you're not owed sex, it is not needed to live, you can have a fulfilling life without sex!" but then demand free on demand abortion. Tell me, where do babies come from? Pregnancies don't happen for no reason, so go follow that advice. Or stop being a moron in an age where contraception is more easily available than ever.

>>15605934
>women in judaism have a very clear status, they are not allowed to sing, they are not allowed to study, not to hold sermons, etc...
so men to all the work while the women boss them around, thats matriarchal

>>15606592
Even the most "patriarchal" society is still made up of human males that worship human females. What's your point?

A society can still be considered *relatively* patriarchal if they allow their men to feel good about their servitude.

>>15594379
>a reform Jewish atheist is still counted as a Jew in official statistics
>Orthodox + Conservative Jews are about twenty five percent of american Jews give or take
>somewhere around twenty five percent of Jews disagree with atheists and don’t like abortion
Use your head, anon. Reform Judaism is like upper class New England Protestantism, that is secularized to the point of just being a kind of atheism but one smart enough to recognize the important need religion fulfills in people’s lives to give them a sense of community. Basically the percentage of Jews that support abortion are pretty much atheists so that’s why they support what reddit tier atheistards do.

------------------------

Actually, YES, there is a scientific definition of life

Biochemical

A biochemical or molecular biological definition sees living organisms as systems that contain reproducible hereditary information coded in nucleic acid molecules and that metabolize by controlling the rate of chemical reactions using the proteinaceous catalysts known as enzymes.

Genetic

All organisms on Earth, from the tiniest cell to the loftiest trees, display extraordinary powers. They effortlessly perform complex transformations of organic molecules, exhibit elaborate behaviour patterns, and indefinitely construct from raw materials in the environment more or less identical copies of themselves.

>>15606665
atheism is a dumb term, someone who believes that god is wrong is a satanist, people that commit themselves to an amoral lifestyle are satanists, there is no such thing as atheism, people can be good or evil, there is no neutral. evil people love the lie of claiming neutrality because they are ashamed of their evilness, so the atheism lie helps them hide their true nature

>>15594379
Classic in-group out-group exploitation strategy. The weaker the out-group becomes the stronger the in-group gets. And jews are basically an in-group in every country on the planet except for one.

>>15605940
>to boost their numbers
jews have a tiny population and always have, if they wanted to have boosted numbers then one man would have many wives
mormon population growth was explosive until they ended polygamy

>>15608631
Not so they can increase their population, I mean so they can count more people as Jewish and scam their numbers.