/sci/ - Science & Math

>>15585977
Since I'm a coomer brain, every time someone mentions lobotomy I think of JFK's sister, Rosemary. She was mildly retarded but was still hot. They did a lobotomy and fucked her completely, she couldn't even walk talk or piss by herself for the rest of her life. Saddens me that such beauty was wasted because of psychiatrists. Truly evil profession. I could have fixed Rosie and we could have had a good life....

>>15585977
i could go for a lobotomy...

>>15585977
>damage a radio
>don't hear music from the radio anymore
>therefore the radio must have been writing music
interesting theory op

>>15586014
This act is what cursed this family by the way. It wasn’t the act itself, so much as the arrogance and lack of remorse from it. When it occurred Rosemary’s spirit screamed so loud, the other side heard it.

It's truly incredible how soul-believers just always imagine everyone as a neurologically healthy 20-40 year old when they think of the "soul". Total compartmentalization and doublethink.
Even ancient buddhists who weren't particularly versed in neurosciences but were at least intimately acquainted with aging pointed out the absurdities of immutable souls.

>>15585977
kastrupians eternally BTFO. no recovery

>>15586024
>beat on a radio
>the radio says "ow ow ow stop hitting me" and has trouble singing properly afterward

>>15586041
>beat up message boy
>he complains and now can't remember the message
>he must have written the original message

>>15586024
>Piano goes out of tune
>Damn I guess the pianist forgot the song lol
It's literally a category error, like they don't understand the concept itself

>>15586014
I pray these bastards are in hell

>>15586076
>>15586075
>>15586067
>>15586041
>>15586040
>>15586036
>>15586033
>>15586024

>t. Antilowinhib counter-instinctually retarded geeniebopper lead free mercury free Ed Gein fans

>>15586014
> I could have fixed Rosie
are you retarded? she suffered minor brain damage from being “held in” for a few hours during birth, all because the nurses are retarded because the doctor wasn’t there yet.
if the mother had listen to her instinct and popped her out, she would have been fine.

>>15586067
It certainly proves he isn't possessed by the spirit of the message-writer, at least.

>>15586091
No it doesn't. Damaging the ability for the possessed to express the possessor's message doesn't prove anything except that you can damage the vessel.

>>15586075
>dude you can't play for shit, you haven't practiced in years have you? now your skills are rusty and I'm pretty sure you forgot half the score
>n-no it's just the piano that's out of tune, I'm totally a real pianist in my mind

>>15586098
>>15586096

Shut your stupid geeniebopper mouths and start acting like normal people before someone injects your brain with hydrochloric acid.

>>15586083
So? Everybody has their defects. Do we kill them? Her biography shows she was an extremely innocent woman. She would have been a good wife...

>>15586100
I always knew people that didn't believe in souls were psychopaths.

>>15586119
no but you see, you are really the aggressor in all of this.
you start on le science road knowing you will ignore everything which doesn't match what you wish to discover.
that means that you will actively avoid certain subjects.
>hey everyone trust me there's nothing there stop looking I said!
what happens if Science is overrun with zealots? they will never ever look at certain things. or even if they do, they won't look at it in certain ways. just because. they already decided there's nothing there.
>yeah but stop it, it hurts, stop THAT science!
yeah, not only does it hurt, it can generate a full mental crisis, in worse scenarios you can go crazy, literally, because you just can't accept whatever you discovered, or even risk performing the hanging act.
religious people will invariably be limited in what they are able to make with science. stop glorying this. it's just politics and religion keeping tabs on science.
if science is going to continue getting spitroasted by politics and religion, we risk forever remaining mortals, and risk getting eventually wiped.

>>15586142
You need to take your meds. Your body is mortal. You may have an immortal soul. I'm not religious.

>>15586160
How are meds supposed to work?

>>15586024
so a retard has a retarded soul, but if you hit someone over the head until they're retarded they have a normal soul trapped in a retarded body?

>>15586098
>Destroy half the piano
>"Bro where's the pianists skill now haha, I destroyed it!"
>Destroy all the piano
>"There is no pianist! There probably never even was!"
Like I said, it's a category error.

It also misrepresents the state of discourse. Many metaphysics *require* that the existence of a pianist be impossible. They have to die on this hill.

>>15586160
>Your body is mortal. You may have an immortal soul. I'm not religious.
body is mortal but the information you gather through the lens that your body (dna) is, can last more than your body. you make another body with it and yes, that is your soul which is immortal. the information itself, about your lens through your particular journey. it is a collection of abstractions. that can live "forever", yes.

>>15586014
Such a beautiful young lady. I will never forgive the psychiatrists, and neither will God.

>>15586014
>everytime someone mentions lobotomy i think of a not widely known celebrity from the 70s who no one talks about anymore and how hot she was
Normal and understandable

>>15586178
It's certainly a category error, yours.
Our brains are not pianos or radios, they're the pianist and the radio towers (or even better yet, the studio broadcasting to the towers/nervous system.)
You can screw over a piano recital by fucking with the piano, sure. You can also screw it by breaking the pianist's fingers or cutting off his hands. And you can screw it by getting the pianist drunk or giving him a concussion, or by not teaching him how to play, or simply distracting the pianist so he doesn't rehearse. The last one is quite curious isn't it.

>>15586172
We don't know what kind of soul a retard would have if they have one. Maybe the retardation is only on the body and the lobotomy just worsened it.

>>15586196
>Our brains are not pianos or radios, they're the pianist and the radio towers
You have no way to prove this.

>>15586194
Speaking of coomers, what's the spiritual explanation for humans getting aroused by tits/asses/genitals or even a pretty face? What exactly causes the divine immortal soul of a negro to go apeshit over two lumps of cellulite shaking like jello?

>>15586200
Mostly because gratuitously experimenting with human brains is unethical.

>>15586200
not him but I find it interesting, so both ways it depends on matter, one way a certain matter structure might allow the "proper" vessel for some soul like thing leaking into this ...reality or dimension or whatever fuck, which sure, I mean that might still be a way for some weirdness to still exist.
and then you have the purely material view which apparently just starts doing shit by itself under certain conditions possible by the universal constants and laws.

>>15586196
>Our brains are not pianos or radios, they're the pianist and the radio towers
This is just question-begging, literally. And I don't even believe in souls.

>>15586211
>Mostly because gratuitously experimenting with human brains is unethical.
You have no way to prove that either. It is a hunch, nothing more. You might conduct all manner of experiments and come up with nothing.

>>15586214
Yes, that could be two hypotheses.
In one, something somehow leaks from outside the material realm into consciousness, mediated by the brain.
In the other one, consciousness arises entirely from the evolved ape brain in response to outside stimuli and is moderated solely by the plasticity of its neurons and so on.
You can make various disprovable predictions about how reality would look like (about how you expect consciousness and humans would work) in each case. And then we can check if reality matches the supposition.

>>15586216
The only thing you have is projecting your own ignorance upon others.

>>15586240
>You can make various disprovable predictions about how reality would look like
There is no reason to expect that your expectations of how it 'would work' would match how it does work, in either scenario. Thus disproving your notions of how it ought to work would not amount to evidence of anything. You're approaching this problem in a fundamentally unscientific way.
>The only thing you have is projecting your own ignorance upon others.
Doesn't sound like an argument. Have you given up?

>>15586205
>what's the spiritual explanation for humans getting aroused by tits/asses/genitals or even a pretty face?
You mean the appreciation of beauty and aesthetics? Or their pp getting hard?

>>15586247
>There is no reason to expect that your expectations of how it 'would work' would match how it does work, in either scenario.
>You're approaching this problem in a fundamentally unscientific way.
Really? It seems to me like you're the one who doesn't understand what the "scientific way" even is. What do you think experiments, measurements or calculations are for, exactly?

>>15586250
I thought I was pretty clear:
>What exactly causes the divine immortal soul of a negro to go apeshit over two lumps of cellulite shaking like jello?

>>15586261
>What do you think experiments, measurements or calculations are for, exactly?
Finding the truth. Which is not something that is achieved by disproving your own strawmen.

>>15586261
>I thought I was pretty clear
Not clear enough to understand what you yourself are saying? In what way is a "divine immortal soul" (whatever that means) aroused? If the mind exists, it need not be "divine" or "immortal".

People are capable of willing many things, like willing to make retarded threads.

>>15585977
>>15586014
It "worked" when done properly.

It's complicated by the fact that we have two brains: the neocortex, and the cerebellum.
The neocortex allows people to uderstand how things work. The cerebellum only works on patterns, equations, and categories. And it's the latter that is being promoted as intelligent, (and measured with IQ tests) even though it's inferior.
In other words the whole western culture is built to support and breed those who rely on the primitive brain, and getting rid of those who use the advanced brain.
Primitive tribes like Himba also think the same way, they are cared for by their cows more than the other way round. The hierarchy of the middle class seems to be essentially inverted - the more primitive you are, the higher you manage to get. And it's getting worse as using your higher thinking marks you as undesirable, and people work on translating old knowledge meant for the neocortex for the cerebellum under such buzzword names as making tacit knowledge explicit, as there aren't people intelligent enough to do the jobs and can't be taught the usual way which only builds upon common sense, the natural ability to understand what is taught.

>>15586286
>>15585977
>>15586014
It "worked" when done properly.

We have two brains: the neocortex, and the cerebellum.
The neocortex allows people to uderstand how things work. The cerebellum only works on patterns, equations, and categories. And it's the latter that is being promoted as intelligent, (and measured with IQ tests) even though it's inferior.
In other words the whole western culture is built to support and breed those who rely on the primitive brain, and getting rid of those who use the advanced brain.
Primitive tribes like Himba also think the same way, they are cared for by their cows more than the other way round. The hierarchy of the middle class seems to be essentially inverted - the more primitive you are, the higher you manage to get. And it's getting worse as using your higher thinking marks you as undesirable, and people work on translating old knowledge meant for the neocortex for the cerebellum under such buzzword names as making tacit knowledge explicit, as there aren't people intelligent enough to do the jobs and can't be taught the usual way which only builds upon common sense, the natural ability to understand what is taught.


>>15586024
>>15586075
>radio, piano, etc. the brain is actually just a RECEIVER man.
Of course that people who use both brains will do things that seem imcomprehensible to you. That doesn't imply they listen to some "god voice" ir anything like it.

>>15586295
>Of course that people who use both brains will do things that seem imcomprehensible to you. That doesn't imply they listen to some "god voice" ir anything like it.
Very low IQ post.

>>15586273
That is, in fact, how it works.

>>15586014
I would like to bite her cheeks

>>15586275
>In what way is a "divine immortal soul" (whatever that means) aroused?
That's my question, yeah.

>If the mind exists, it need not be "divine" or "immortal".
I of course agree. I thought that was obvious from the phrasing but I forgot half of /sci/ is autistic.

>>15586307
Incrementally sure, you can spam null hypotheses and get somewhere, but you will not prove the absence of a soul by saying 'this is how it would be if there was' and then btfoing your own claim. It's like banging your head against a wall.

>>15586317
You are essentially just pretending it's impossible to conclusive prove or disprove anything empirically. It's trivially true, but somehow that doesn't seem to matter to the people building particle colliders.
Is it meaningless if predictions engendered by one hypothesis are repeatedly proven by experiment, and predictions engendered by a rival hypothesis are repeatedly disproven? Hell, you probably already have a concept of the "soul" that's millennia more sophisticated (more restrictive and less consequential) than that of cavemen or shamans. That's because you're aware of at least some advances in neuroscience that renders older conceptions impossible.

>>15586325
>You are essentially just pretending it's impossible to conclusive prove or disprove anything empirically. It's trivially true, but somehow that doesn't seem to matter to the people building particle colliders.
You can build things, but you can't disprove the soul or the afterlife or any of that shit.
>Is it meaningless if predictions engendered by one hypothesis are repeatedly proven by experiment, and predictions engendered by a rival hypothesis are repeatedly disproven?
Yes, so long as the important questions remain unanswered.
>Hell, you probably already have a concept of the "soul" that's millennia more sophisticated (more restrictive and less consequential) than that of cavemen or shamans. That's because you're aware of at least some advances in neuroscience that renders older conceptions impossible.
It's all very well to advance ideas and test them. I'm simply railing against the science-extremists who think they can disprove the soul or intelligent design. They can't.

>>15585977
>mangle the antenna
>see?, there is no transmission
anon...

>>15586334
If something cannot possibly be proven false, cannot be proven to not exist, then it must have no effect on reality, as if it didn't exist.
Why even care about something that has no effect on reality, whose existence is indistinguishable from nonexistence?

>>15586024
>>15586041
>>15586067
>>15586075
>>15586098
>>15586178
>>15586196
>>15586339
I have never seen an intelligent person try to support an argument with an analogy.

How Evil do you have to be to practice lobotomies ?
Do they really think it is worse than straight murder ?

Both murderers and lobotomists will end up in hell of course, but i'm pretty sure lobotomists will go somewhere hotter and pointy-er.

>>15586346
What argument? That's the typical position of e.g. substance dualists. You're also replying to at least 3 people.

>>15586352
>You're also replying to at least 3 people.
so?
analogies are low IQ regardless and you're all idiots of you can't explain your reasoning otherwise

>>15586344
Nobody is asking you to care. You've wandered into the fray between the anti-believers and believers. I don't care personally, although I care enough to tell sciencetists they are retarded when they pretend they can disprove it either way.

>>15586347
It is worse than straight murder. When I was a kid, anytime there was a bug limping on the ground because half it's body was destroyed somehow, my mother would tell me to stomp on it since it is better than letting it suffer than die later anyway. Murderers murder people, but they kill them quickly. Psychiatrists murder them slowly. After a lobotomy, you have to endure decades of excruciating suffering before you can finally die. It is the most evil practice man can think of, literally retard someone on purpose, leaving them to suffer in a semi conscious state worse than a limping bug. Even people like Genghis khan, or Stakin or Hitler that killed millions were more merciful. At least they made it quick and painless. But for Psychiatrists, the deepest pits of hell await for their psychopathic sadism.

>>15586361
>suffer than die
then*

>>15586347
>How Evil do you have to be to practice lobotomies ?
I imagine it was historically either lobotomy or "not prison" for the more problematic cases.


>>15586356
>analogies are low IQ
If they are, so much the better. It will help pull the poster out of a serious category error. But he also did not comprehend the analogy, so I guess we need something lower.
>you're all idiots of you can't explain your reasoning otherwise
Do you imagine I don't know my own IQ? This is a weak insult, at least say something like "you're all ugly" or otherwise subjective.

ITT: hard materialists who don't understand what phenomenal experience is
Imagine being so low IQ that you cannot comprehend a thing that is impossible to quantify or measure simply because it uniquely emanates from something else. If I say "color exists", they claim it is but an illusion and instead insist that only electromagnetic frequencies exist. If I point to a region of the brain where color is produced, they find a lobotomite who cannot perceive color and believe themselves proven correct.

Science does demand that the universe be testable, measurable, and easily reproduced by others - and this is a well and good system for most things - but the fact is the universe is under no obligation to provide any of the above. Some things, the mind in particular, will forever be a uniquely individual experience. Insert reference to "what is it like to be a bat" here.

>>15586360
>hah, you stupid scientist, all you can do is prove that something has no impact on reality and is indistinguishable from something not real! what a waste of time! You can't even prove that your spaceship isn't just lifted to the heavens by invisible angels that live in rocket fuel! if you were smart you would just believe and assert without proof that things exist even though they are indistinguishable from things that don't exist.
"Believers" really did a number on you, huh?

>>15586370
based and qualiapilled

>>15586370
>nooo, this thing is SPECIAL you can't test or prove it stop it nooooooooo

>>15586376
>hah, you stupid scientist, all you can do is prove that something has no impact on reality
No impact on this reality, to whatever degree it is measurable. Perhaps the soul is of some great importance in the next life or outside the confines of this reality. Such notions should not create such butthurt in the mind of scientists, but they do seem to nonetheless.
>if you were smart you would just believe and assert without proof
The smart thing is to remain agnostic on such questions. You are demanding the same baseless belief and adherence to dogma as the believer.

>>15586361
>>15586347
Yup. Look at Rosies case>>15586014.
>When Rosemary was 23 years old, doctors told her father that a form of psychosurgery known as a lobotomy would help calm her mood swings and stop her occasional violent outbursts.
>After Rosemary was mildly sedated, "We went through the top of the head," Dr. Watts recalled. "I think she was awake. She had a mild tranquilizer. I made a surgical incision in the brain through the skull. It was near the front. It was on both sides. We just made a small incision, no more than an inch." The instrument Dr. Watts used looked like a butter knife. He swung it up and down to cut brain tissue. "We put an instrument inside", he said. As Dr. Watts cut, Dr. Freeman asked Rosemary some questions. For example, he asked her to recite the Lord's Prayer or sing "God Bless America" or count backward... "We made an estimate on how far to cut based on how she responded." When Rosemary began to become incoherent, they stopped.
Psychiatrists are heartless demons.

>>15586370
not hard materialist but never say never. it's retarded. you're but a fucking monkey, don't forget that. you are limited, there are things you cannot process, they may be contrary to what you think.
why do people forget they are basically chimps? the fucking hubris.

>>15586369
>pull the poster out of a serious category error.
What's the category error, attributing consciousness as having any bearing on the soul? If that's the case the concept of the soul is just some woowoo bullshit without even the qualia to experience it.

>>15585977
?
is this supposed to be new?
Obliterating consciousness is the absolute oldest thing mankind does.
We just usually kill them too.

>>15586394
>you're but a fucking monkey
exactly
so why would i not look to the external world around me for insight? you only hear about shit like souls and chakras from other monkies.

>>15586389
>Perhaps the soul is of some great importance in the next life or outside the confines of this reality.
did you ever wonder why you find it so natural to believe in the soul? with not proof? all you have is tainted evidence.
would you accept evidence of contrary? hard evidence?
>no you see it's simple, I managed to solve this threat by saying that it's just not possible to be proven false so I win everytime, this neat trick is quite amazing.

>>15586172
Damaged connection with the soul. You don't have to worry about that, you are an NPC, you don't have a soul.

>>15586370
>The most famous instance of cerebral achromatopsia is that of "Jonathan I." immortalized in a case study by Oliver Sacks and Robert Wasserman, and published as "The Case of the Colorblind Painter". The essay tracks Johnathan I.'s experience with cerebral achromatopsia from the point where an injury to his occipital lobe leaves him without the ability to perceive color, through his subsequent struggles to adapt to a black, white and gray world

>Mr. I. could hardly bear the changed appearances of people ("like animated gray statues") any more than he could bear his own changed appearance in the mirror: he shunned social intercourse and found sexual intercourse impossible. He saw people's flesh, his wife's flesh, his own flesh, as an abhorrent gray; "flesh-colored" now appeared "rat-colored" to him.
>This was so even when he closed his eyes, for his preternaturally vivid ("eidetic") visual imagery was preserved but now without color, and forced on him images, forced him to "see" but see internally with the wrongness of his achromatopsia. He found foods disgusting in their grayish, dead appearance and had to close his eyes to eat. But this did not help very much, for the mental image of a tomato was as black as its appearance.

>>15586400
i'd sooner experience the annihilation of thought than have to spend an eternity in the same realm as tranime posters

>>15586347
They are schizopheenic. Schizos have no comprehension to understand anything. But he can see that other people know things that nobody told them, and they can find no other explanation that god told them.
They learned about Phineas Gage, who became a retard and began to behave like an animal after his brain damage, and decided to cause the same damage to other people. First with surgeries, then with icepicks, then with electricity, and eventually with electricity.
This is why they harass, toorture and kill intelligent people (because they are the evil ones who listen to god) and force women to have sex with retards so that the retards breed (as those are the good ones, who don't obey god).

So you can see in their minds their crimes don't mean that they're evil, they are good, as they wirk on freeing people from the evil god. And this is why you deserve to be an incel and the love of your life a childless old lady, because you are against it.

>>15586400
>Damaged connection with the soul.
in your case seems like damaged connection between most of your neurons.
>You don't have to worry about that, you are an NPC, you don't have a soul.
well you see, this is what humans do with anything, be it "special", or "divine". they fucking wield that shit to their benefit as much as possible. fucking killing humans in the name of god, isn't that what humans did for soooo fucking long? you twist and corrupt anything you can use to cover your weakneses and indulge in nerverending hedonism. you are schizoid corruptions of life. if there is a god, it is very well aware of this side of most humans, and pretty sure he'd take contingencies so you have no real chance of misusing anything derived from "him".
you are prostitutes, who'd suck some godly cock for some of that juicy god power. isn't it a form of trying to control god? using some of his power to smite your enemies is right on that alley. or to win the lottery, or to get that job. you just need some godly power and if you're convincing enough at sucking his cock you might get some of that good stuff, some luck. some godly cum on your face, that you can use to your own benefit somehow. you not only need to lie to god about being a worthy soul, you need to lie to your fucking self, so you play that role like your life depends on it. nobody is aware of your bullshit, not even you. it's perfect.

>>15586400
>Damaged connection with the soul
how come a retard cannot pray?

>>15586396
>What's the category error
The mind-body issue is the category mistake. It seems to also be a misunderstanding of definitions, assuming he does indeed know what the e.g. dualist or idealist positions even are.

>>15586396
>attributing consciousness as having any bearing on the soul?
what do you mean by 'soul' if it doesn't include 'consciousness'? Even the religious adherents take it to include consciousness (and some even unconscious states) and be synonymous with the mind.

>>15586014
Did you know this though, that the guy who invented lobotomies got a Nobel prize for it? They shill Psychiatry today just like they shilled lobotomies back then. Imagine rejecting the efficacy of a lobotomy back then
>You bigoted Chud! this procedure literally got a Nobel prize. It's established science. Trust the science we're not in the middle ages anymore, this is how modern medicine is, and my peer-reviewed research shows it works. You illiterate nazi.

>>15586453
>I went to get eye surgery and the surgeon fucked up and now I'm blind, doctors are quacks!
Not entirely unjustified, but eye surgery does work. Just like lobotomies. The very fact that lobotomies are possible (that they have a somewhat predictable effect) was groundbreaking.

>>15586446
>mind-body issue is the category
But it's known that the mind and body have tangible and observable effects on one another, the dilemma is just that we still don't know exactly how. It's undeniable that destroying parts of the body can irreparably diminish the faculties of the mind, so if consciousness is seated in the soul that sort of puts the kibosh on the soul being eternal and untouchable.

>>15586453
Is it just me or does he look like a lobotomized patient? The ears, the dead souless eyes

>>15586471
You have no idea what a lobotomized patient looks like, and Moniz was quite a wild character.

>>15586469
>But it's known that the mind and body have tangible and observable effects on one another, the dilemma is just that we still don't know exactly how.
you could staple your hand to your desk, so you can understand how your mind can affect your body. then the body, by having the scar, will affect your mind, reminding you how retarded you were for actually trying it after reading it on 4chan.

>>15586484
That hurt and now my stapler's fucked up, dick.

>>15586455
This is what a 'successful' lobotomy looked like.

>Yeah this guy seems a little angry. He's acting up a bit too much for my taste.
>Yeah drill his skull and throw some absolute alcohol in there, destroy the most important and 'human' part of the brain
>Oh wow, amazing now he's calm just like a capuchin monkey, surgery successful.

Maybe because the frontal lobe is exactly what makes you human, so obviously you're gonna be sedated when they fuck it up. And this is only in successful cases, unsuccessful cases were way way worse. Rosemary kennedy is a good example of that.

>>15586480
true, though I looked some up and he fits the bill in my book.
>>15585977
It just hit me that I was liable to be lobotomised if I was born at the wrong time. I am in my 20's now for reference, and I was labeled schizophrenic for cutting my toe off. Was put on meds and now years later I'm off em. No lot of good they did me either, meds almost killed me in 10 different ways.

>>15586492
>unsuccessful cases were way way worse
I want lore gimme gimme

>>15586492
If you want to know why lobotomies are actually banned:

>Wanting to simplify lobotomies so that it could be carried out by psychiatrists in psychiatric hospitals, where there were often no operating rooms, surgeons, or anesthesia and limited budgets, Freeman invented a transorbital lobotomy procedure. The ice-pick transorbital approach, a transorbital lobotomy, involved placing an orbitoclast (an instrument resembling an ice pick) under the eyelid and against the top of the eye socket; a mallet was then used to drive the orbitoclast through the thin layer of bone and into the brain.
>Freeman's transorbital lobotomy method did not require a neurosurgeon and could be performed outside of an operating room, often by untrained psychiatrists without the use of anesthesia by using electroconvulsive therapy to induce seizure and unconsciousness.
>In 1947, Freeman's partner Dr. James W. Watts ended their partnership because he was disgusted by Freeman's modification of the lobotomy from a surgical operation into a simple "office" procedure.
>Freeman and his procedure played a major role in popularizing lobotomy; he later traveled across the United States visiting mental institutions. In 1951, one of Freeman's patients at Iowa's Cherokee Mental Health Institute died when he suddenly stopped for a photo during the procedure, and the orbitoclast accidentally penetrated too far into the patient's brain.
>After four decades Freeman had personally performed possibly as many as 4,000 lobotomies on patients as young as 4, despite the fact that he had no formal surgical training. As many as 100 of his patients died of cerebral hemorrhage, and he was finally banned from performing surgery in 1967.

If it wasn't for this dipshit fraud, lobotomies would probably still be a relatively common procedure.

>>15586501
>only killed 100 of em
WTF lol

>>15586492
>That schizo pic again.

>>15586501
You need to understand that more modern methods are meant to do the same thing in more acceptable way, as per >>15586409. It's a crazy cult, not science.

>>15586527
>per >>15586409
broski i ignored that post because it was buttfuck insane

>>15586469
>that sort of puts the kibosh on the soul being eternal and untouchable.
Do any persons hold this belief at all?

If the "soul" or "mind" is not literally identical with the brain, dualists and idealists would probably half-agree that the soul is not 'touchable'. If either is true then they are simply correct in the same way a pianist is separate from a piano. And they would also disagree that the damage or enhancement done to mental powers is permanent. Actually I think everyone would disagree with that, as humans clearly change in mental and physical powers over the course of their life. I even know some dualists and idealists who hold that e.g. computation is performed in the body rather than the mind.

I don't know of anyone who considers their minds to be properly timeless or eternal, that's not even ascribed to non-human minds like paranormal entities.

>>15586399
>would you accept evidence of contrary? hard evidence?
yes, but you cannot show it to me

>>15586536
if the soul is touchable, mortal, and able to be reliably influenced by observable and reproducible phenomenon then that removes the entire concept of it being divine and brings it into the realm where it can be critically examined with a material perspective like the body and mind

>>15586024
Suppose you receive a blow to the head and blackout for 3 days.
Where were “you” or your soul during these 3 days? Could it be that even the radio receptor analogy by dualists admits it’s just metaphysical masturbation but doesn’t actually reveal anything about the question in what locus your subjectivity resides, and how it can be destroyed?

Yes, I feel bad qbout my argumentative mogs btw.

>>15586566
>Where were “you” or your soul during these 3 days?
We don't know. That's the whole point. Lol. Great argument btw.

>>15586469
>that sort of puts the kibosh on the soul being eternal and untouchable.
It doesn't

>>15586566
>Where were “you” or your soul during these 3 days?
it's funny because if you accept the obvious, it also serves as fast-forward on command, if you master preserving your information. in a way it's funny, because acting from a religious belief position seems to keep certain things hidden away from you. if you'd want to avoid religious schizos, say as a god, that's a good place to hide some eastereggs. if you refuse to believe the soul is information which can be preserved and reincarnated in another body, via technology, you won't do it, and will remain a mortal faggot forever. because your special voice told you not to.

>>15586548
>then that removes the entire concept of it being divine
What? We're talking about divinity now? What religion are you? Are you referring to the Omnigod or some other religious tradition?

>>15586615
elaborate

>>15586566
>Where were “you” or your soul during these 3 days?
Meditating with Buddha, probably. If the mind is 'elsewhere' or otherwise cannot encode memories, tell time, access the eyes and ears, etc, why think you would be having continuous consciousness and memories of this?

>>15586627
sacred, holy, etc. would probably be a better choice of words
i forget how christians are about "divine" sometimes

>>15586548
>like the body and mind
What? The soul is the mind, just the way the schizos call it

>>15586608
>>15586616
If I turn off/mute my radio for 1 hour, and later turn it back on, it will play the radio program as if 1 hour had passed. That's because it receives a transmission from outside that exists independently of the radio.
If I turn off my cassette or CD player for 1 hour, and later turn it back on, it will pick up exactly where it left off. That's because there's no transmission except from the record inside of the player. If I only mute the speaker, it will pick up exactly 1 hour later, because there's a transmission from the player to the speaker, something that exists independently of the state of the speaker.

Notice by the way how I can mysteriously deduce all of these scenarios even though I don't even have a radio, cassette or CD player on hand. Maybe I have some sort of ESP?

Now tell me, what happens when a being with a soul blacks out for 1 hour (or 3 days?) And what does that imply?

>>15586501
Not at all, it's not because of him that lobotomies were banned. Lobotomies were banned because they weren't a treatment for shit. Imagine a patient came in and told you that he had paun in his arm and you just cut off the whole arm. That's what a lobotomy was. Lobotomies almost never yielded good results. In fact Moniz himself was not trained in neurosurgery either, and considered the procedure a success simply because he considered the 'side-effects' were outweighed by the positives of 'curing' the disease. Moniz was correct in the assumption that most common mental illnesses had an origin in the frontal lobe. However, the frontal lobe is also probably the most important region for a human, so you're incapacitating a human by removing it. Most patients didn't die (a lot did, but the majority survived), but many could barely function. A lot couldn't even walk or talk. Many were dead zombies with no emotions. Thoughtless monkeys that couldn't even piss by themselves, had no inhibition or self awareness. They had lost most 'human functioning' but many of them retained some level of intelligence (which was also severely blunted) so you could hold somewhat of a conversation with them still, even though their personalities would have suffered extremely. What a success huh.

How did he even come up with something like this and why was it banned though? Fulton performed lobectomies on two chimpanzees and they suddenly became very calm, sedated, emotionless etc. So Moniz got the Idea and asked him if it would be possible on a human. This startled Fulton because of how inhumane it was. But Moniz didn't listen and did exactly that.
1/2

>>15586643
spirit is not able to act without the concepts offered by experiencing reality with your consciousness. that experience is what creates the basis for you to hallucinate all that shit. whatever happens "there", happens with and based on concepts that you experienced already, with biological body and mind. you are using human mind concepts, directly derived from your experience on this earth, in this lifetime, and you somehow imply that must be eternal and immortal. how do you not understand how dumb that sounds?
the smarter you get and the more knowledge you get the better you become at fooling yourself. it's so weird, you'd think it would go the other way around.

>>15586501
>>15586657
The purpose of lobotomies wasn't to 'cure' patients, it was to make them easier to care for. And it was well established that it came at the expense of the patient. Basically, the patient is acting up too much and is hard to care for. We can't kill him. hmmm maybe we can just half kill him so that he is easier to take care of. Patients ALWAYS suffered more after the procedure, but they were more calm and sedated and zombie like. They were stuporous and mentally absent. So suddenly, the patient is now manageable. But alongwith it you removed symptoms of the mental illness as well (by remiving a whole fucking region of the brain, obviously the symptom is gone), so that was a win win in their heads.

But it was not banned because of Freeman at all. Even in the 40s many neurologists knew that it was a shit procedure. Nobody listened to them in the US. But USSR banned it early in 1950.
>The Soviet Union officially banned the procedure in 1950on the initiative of Gilyarovsky. Doctors in the Soviet Union concluded that the procedure was "contrary to the principles of humanity" and"'through lobotomy' an insane person is changed into an idiot"
point is, the US was just late in recognizing this basic fact, it wasn't Freeman that prompted the procedure to fall out of favor. It was just that more and more surgeries were performed, the more obvious it became that you were not doing any good to the individual. And were causing immense harm. Something that was known early, but just became very obvious later on, especially with long-term observations of patients who never recovered from this procedure (as Moniz said that the negative effects would just be be transitory, but they weren't)
2/2

>>15586660
Would I, a schizophrenic patient of a couple years ago have risked a lobotomy lol
I can't even wrap my head on how messed up this was.

>>15586659
>you to hallucinate all that shit.
A person who is unconscious is not hallucinating? That was the thought experiment, was it not?
>>15586659
>you are using human mind concepts, directly derived from your experience on this earth, in this lifetime, and you somehow imply that must be eternal and immortal
I have explicitly argued that human minds are not eternal in this very thread. Did you think I was Buddhist from one joke?

>>15586643
What does it even mean to be "meditating with Buddha" in this instance? I know meditation (and orthodox Buddhists would laugh at your conception of the soul) but people who are knocked out are measurably not doing that.

And is it the "mind" that's tasked with encoding memories? If you're talking about the neurological mind then I suppose it is, but memories are rather demonstrably encoded in neurons.

>>15586532
The only reason why it seems insane is that it describes insane people. (All right, together with ESL and sucking at typing on touchscreen)

>>15586347
I'm pretty sure if you intefere with God's divine judgment (letting things destroy themselves) then he can't be God.

>>15586453
>You bigoted Chud! this procedure literally got a Nobel prize. It's established science. Trust the science we're not in the middle ages anymore, this is how modern medicine is, and my peer-reviewed research shows it works. You illiterate nazi.
true, in 100 years our clown world will be literally rather be forgotten because of how retarded it was

>>15586522
brain size is larger too fuckwit

>>15586673
>but memories are rather demonstrably encoded in neurons
That's the entire point? If we are intentionally damaging the neurons and then asking why the neurons aren't functioning this isn't exactly a mystery now is it? That'd be like breaking a radio and repairing it three days later and wondering why it didn't record your radio show.

>>15586666
Depends on how irritable you were. Most procedures were performed on people, again, that were unmanageable and irritable. The procedure basically turned you into a calm retarded disable child (Freeman even called it Surgically induced childhood) so that you were manageable. If you are not uppity and behave decently, just the presence of schizophrenia would probably not prompt a lobotomy. It was the behaviour and personality that they mainly wanted to change.

>>15586501
>In 1951, one of Freeman's patients at Iowa's Cherokee Mental Health Institute died when he suddenly stopped for a photo during the procedure, and the orbitoclast accidentally penetrated too far into the patient's brain.
hahaha i just can't, jews can get away with everything after WW2 can't they?

>>15586522
kek you're retarded.

>>15586696
what if I perfectly clone you, including your present brain, and I make another identical you. clearly will diverge as soon as it starts to function, but what does that mean soul-wise? did we just create another soul? forcefully? identical to another soul?
do they share the same soul and then another soul takes over...which one exactly? so, humans have reach into soul land from 3D?

>>15586660
>The purpose of lobotomies wasn't to 'cure' patients
And what you think the purpose of todays pills is? You think meds do anything else than disable parts of your brain function? chemical-induced lobotomy is a the whole pharma market today, in most cases its reversible though by just not taking them

>>15586695
No it isn't. The frontal region has shrunk massively.

>>15586024
>>15586075

At the risk of derailing the thread with this reference, if you are familiar with Socionics, most s o y entists have Extraverted (rather than Introverted, as most people assume) Thinking as their Dominant or Demonstrative function. Extraverted Thinking is commonly described as Empirical, however, it is even worse than that. Imagine the most subhuman business practices (so most of them) and their practitioners' self-satisfaction at what they regard as the obvious proof of their self-worth, symbolized by numbers going up. This is exactly what the s o y ence is, except it is an increasing number of "proofs" instead of money.

>>15586697
The purpose was to disable the hallucinatory connection with god (actually normal human intelligence), because the retards couldn't comprehend the concept of thinking. I think the idea is that people used to be telepaths, but some peopke from the universe hijacked it and began to control people, and they are the ones who freed us all. (they even call themselves "yisra el", "defeated god")

>>15586707
from cro-magnon, not from australopitecus or homo erectus, dummy

>>15586701
I think we did this already in a star trek thread right?
Anyway,
>>15586701
>did we just create another soul
Sure, why wouldn't the number of minds increase? I just said they're not eternal, it's not like there's some set amount and we'll run out.

Or maybe you're asking about the so-called causal pairing problem?

the only way I can see material and woo-woo in this context, if I put my schizo thinking cap on, I'd say at most brain matter arrangement might "accidentally" stumbled upon some freakish weird effect we still didn't discover, some Casimir effect type shit somewhere in some way, which "leaks" some magic juice, some of that chi, that prana goodness, that special "life energy", which powers our consciousness. whatever leaks from there to here kinda makes sense to not have identity.

>>15586722
my nigga just accidentally invented sacred geometry

>>15586715
I really want to believe in the soul and god and other supernatural retardation, because it would make a lot of sense and give a lot of hope, but until you are able to do something concrete with it, it'll always be supernatural retardation for me.

Please less schizo ramblings, and more finding ways to do things that are obviously supernatural reliably.
Please prove it to me, i want to believe, but i'll never have faith because i'm not a braindead vaxxed retarded cattle goylem filth, no offense to midwit NPCs.

>>15586707
I just looked up one of them
OH9 is the largest found Homo erectus at 1067 cm3
As >>15586718 said early humans were bigger. Compare the 1000 cm3 of the biggest ever erectus to a 1450 cm3 average size for early human or 1300 cm3 average for modern human.
The only species that had a larger brain than Modern Sapiens was Neanderthal (even they were roughly around early humans size though, not bugger than them, just us), and even for them, it wasn't their frontal lobe that was bigger. see picrel.

>>15586724
>it, it'll always be supernatural retardation for me.
I mean it is. I'm trying to explain what the cult appears to think. Basically they believe that the brain is actually an antenna, it doesn't do any thinking. That is the core, which they sometimes let go on their own. Next, they seem to be unable to grasp that you can figure things out, they think that they are intelligent, because someone told them (or read it somewhere) and they remember, they are retarded, and can't think on their own.
The "obvious" resolution is that other people know, because god told them. And god also limits them, and prevents them from doing things, which is why they aren't disinhibited like them. But a lobotomy/electroshocks/antipsychotics frees them from their chains, and they can do whatever they want, they only need to protect them from those who still serve god.


I don't mean it's real. I mean it's how retarded people explain how other people know things that nobody told them - it was god who did.

>>15586755
Makes sense.

>>15586187
"no"

>>15586735
cro-magnon was higher too, neanderthal wasnt any exception

>>15586187
>he thinks his DNA is immortal and can live forever
bruh

>>15586712
interesting. i knew scientists were sub-human, but i didn't know why until now. thanks.

>>15586654
Perhaps it requires some reply from the brain, or perhaps a damaged brain does not receive the message correctly when turned back on. There are countless possible reasons.

There's something rotten in the Kingdom of Christ

>>15586830
Yeah, the souls of humanity laid bare...the stentch is human.

>>15586635
The soul's eternalness and untouchableness is not put into question when the body is compromised.

>>15586014
Gentlemen it is time we purged the scientific community of this false profession. You know what must be done.

>>15586987
They have proven them unworthy of the weight and scrutiny of truth. They are simply not worth the price in man or heavens laws. Thus. Cast them out.

>>15586830
The odour of sanctity is just refined stench of existence
Shining pearl of Augeas' crown pales in comparison

>niggers talking about "muh receiver" analogy
lmao not even idealists believe that, the brain wouldn't be built like a computer if it was a "receiver", your shit on the level of cartesian musings about the pineal gland

>>15586712
>Extraverted (rather than Introverted, as most people assume) Thinking as their Dominant or Demonstrative function
sounds based to me, retards that get lost in their own head are useless and may as well just be bulldozed into a ditch

>>15586643
You miss what I am getting at. What difference does it make to the "you" you perceive to be the current you? Yes, it may have been that "you" merely lack the memory of 3 days perceiving just darkness, as you didn't have access to your brain's memory storage facilities during this time. But again, is that blackness-dwelling "you" or Buddha meditating "you" a coherent version to assign to the concept of "you"? Again, I have to ask, what difference does it make whether that disembodied soul exists, vs. if we assume it does not, as your incarnate self has no means to access it? Sure, it would make the world of difference *to the soul*. Is that the hope you cling on?
But YOU are not that soul, as proven by you not having access to these blackout memories. It's like a brain upload via copy. Sure, the brain upload can live forever in some virtual utopia, and for him, this makes all the difference. But this changes nothing about your current flesh self, for every intent and every purpose imaginable the only "you" that exists and matters to oneself.

I get what you are getting at, though, and have pondered this many times, particularly as I lean panpsychist and thus rocks with scrambled "thoughts" and no memory -- as they have no brain -- have been a frequent concept to me.

>>15586014
>getting your brain completely fucked because you're essentially the same type of person as your average 4chan poster

its insane how mean people were to autists back in the day. she wasn't even low-functioning/non-verbal. what the fuck.

>>15585977

>>15587935
how can a family be that cursed

>>15585977
This method is pretty basic with just removing random chunks of frontal cortex, but with a more accurate and precise approach, it would work better.

>>15586795
Not quite countless, and as we whittle them down further and further "there's no soul" becomes increasingly attractive in the face of special pleading.

>>15586370
fucking hell whoever made that meme is a clever chap, hearty keks were had my good man

>>15586370
>>15588323
>midwits memorized by the concept of recursion
this board has gone so downhill

>>15587369
The point is that we don't need an explanation for how the soul DOES exist, just that it might exist, and the receiver argument is an example of one possible way it could exist. Science cucks will NEVER disprove the soul.

>>15588426
I would have no problem with a soul that you can't prove exists if someone could provide a reason why it may exist that isn't
>dude, like, what about like, the meaning of life

>>15588447
It may exist.

>>15588468
so may my dick on your face gayboy

>>15587935
They wanted to save their reputation. Send all their kids to Harvard and be THE Elite family. A retards ruins the fanily image, so just puting her in a coma was better, or so they thought. She was cute though. Would.

>>15588377
now you made me feel sadd :(

>>15587935
By the description she might have been neurotypical in times when aurism was still normal, especially among the well off.

>>15587620

It is s o y ence that is bulldozed into a ditch.

>>15586654
>Now tell me, what happens when a being with a soul blacks out for 1 hour (or 3 days?) And what does that imply?
Boring question. It's far more interesting to ask if we don't have souls, and I secretly scanned your brain and uploaded to a computer simulation and shoot your brain into mush within a microsecond (ie loooong before it could react), did I clone your consciousness or did I simply move your own/same consciousness to a computer?

>>15586453
Did they ever take his prize away? They definitely should.

>>15589469
Enough with the antisemitism.

>>15589485
He was Portuguese. Did some reading on this, it seems they won't do it to not demonize medical developments. I guess it makes some sense, since the people to really demonize are those who formalized and popularized the procedure, not the guy who discovered one thing that has some effect, unless im wrong and it is him

>>15586352
>3 receivers broadcast the same message
>"Aha, you fool, you have been responding to 3 different signals!"