/sci/ - Science & Math

>>15582797
Money. Now fuck off.

>>15582797
Well you see its because something something upfront costs something something uranium something something oil lobby

>>15582797
https://archive.org/details/WilliamEngdahlACenturyOfWar/page/n86/mode/1up?view=theater&q=nuclear+rose

156-165 if your curious

tldr: 60-70's geopolitics and the constraints imposed by running a world economy on fiat money. There is too much independence in nuclear fuel, so it disendears nations to the USD, which forced oil and forex markets to be denominated in it to create demand, this demand was shoved into savings vechiles like the eurodollar system to create interest rates and prevent instantaneous hyperinflation

>>15582797
>That's the world I want to see.
me too, and now that Gwahar has been bled for half a century more and EROI is falling, I think a case to be made that a stable geopolitics could be managed by coordinating nuclear waste recycling

>>15582807
>upfront costs

Don't forget end of life costs. It takes decades to decommission these things.

>>15582797
It's a fucking huuuuuuuuuuuuuge logistical nightmare of truly epic proportions. We have all sorts of technology out the ass to get around most problems and make things pretty damned safe, but over the long term... you need to hope that there's never a penny-pinching asshole manager or politician that comes along somewhere and cuts funding for safety or maintenance, which you can never, ever guarantee. So part of the problem is requiring a constant base level of expensive servicing and expert analysis over long periods of time and having to sustain that in the face of ever changing govt's and management.
Also it becomes a lot easier to create the material needed to produce nukes the more nuclear plants there are.

The problem isn't the tech, the problem is humans.

>>15582797
Because hydrocarbons are much cheaper and easier to build
Nuclear (like green) only works for specific tasks

>>15582873
Indeed... As i'm trying to become the next Harold Innis and try to make Kissinger proud of me. My thesis is to make nuclear waste recycling 'too big to fail' implicitly multinational, part of a global infrastructure program, done in private-public partnerships so that pinch factor is lessened. Change the saying 'those that trade together do not go to war together' to 'those that manage nuclear waste together dont go to war together' as the sanctioning strategy destroys the basis of the bretton woods accords

>>15582886
It's an admirable goal. Good luck anon. Whoever manages to safely proliferate nuclear power to the masses will be seen as being as important as Haber and Bosch to the quality of mankind's life.

>>15582797
Russia & China have been doing what Germany did to Russia in WW1, but instead of bolsheviks, it's anti-nuclear protestors.

Nuclear is safe, even the worst nuclear accident in history killed a mere 30 people.

It is expensive only due to the stupid safety regulations imposed upon it. Remove government interference and it will be much cheaper.

>>15582873
Don't need all that safety crap. If we gave as much scrutiny to the knock on effects of the knock on effects of every wind turbine or coal power station as we did for a unrequested fission surplus, we'd be paralyzed from fear.

As for the crap about nuclear waste, just dump it in the ocean.

>>15582922
lllloooooollll, and you are exactly why we can't have nice things

>>15582893
Never gonna happen as long as bureaucrats and high-viz clipboard-carrying health and safety are allowed power.

>>15582893
thanks anon, likely the bootstrapping will be very unsafe, but if it survives the initial phase, I'd be hopeful it could go long term.

Prototypically the plan is to exploit Western Canadian Separatism to trigger a neo-mercantilist expansion into the arctic circle. Chinese fishing vessels, precede russian floating nuclear cities, preceding japanese ybco laser drones, in desparation arctic states coordinate the ice breaking of the northwest passage and the northern sea route opening shipping and solving the northwest passage problem.

If only one nation would get on recyling academik lomonosovs fuel that is unaligned wit h the Russians, it would get the ball rolling

>>15582924
Wrong, people in government are. The laws ought to be such that anyone can just build a nuclear power station (or anything else for that matter) on their land. If it's yours, you can do with it as you please.

>>15582820
>muh petrodollar
Notto disu shitto agen

>>15582933
The eurodollar recyling scheme was very relevant in the early days of financialization to bootstrap the global monetary system. However, now that the global forex market is orders of magnitude larger than international crude, thats where the 'recycling' occurs these days

>>15582932
Your neighbor, Farmer Bob, has had a Chernobyl level incident, do you agree to accept the terms and conditions of living next to Farmer Bob? (y/n)

>>15582820
This too. Petrodollar is the modern tribute system. Export inflation.

>>15582939
> do you agree to accept the terms and conditions of living next to Farmer Bob
What do you mean? If I was already living next to him that is irrelevant.

>>15582944
I meant for you to consider the hypothetical of living next to the equivalent of a nuclear methlab explosion and how convenient that would be for your existence.

>>15582947
if it's a niggerrigged mess close by then i wouldn't like it...

>>15582952
lol, exactly, it would be fucked if every Bob and Mary could jury rig nuclear bullshit and have it irradiate hundreds of acres of arable land because they were stupid one day. There's a reason it's bloody hard to get your hands on nuclear fuel, and it has to be that way, because the risk of things going bad for generational timescales is way too high.

>>15582958
>lol, exactly, it would be fucked if every Bob and Mary could jury rig
exactly what? Why does this mean there should be laws against it?

> because the risk of things going bad for generational timescales is way too high.
No it's not.

>>15582962
>No it's not.
It's only 3.6 roentgens, not great, not terrible

>>15582967
Correct. Only 100 people died, 30 to radiation. Stop begging for more government.

>>15582968
And Chernobyl is a bustling city today, right?

>>15582970
No, because the government ordered people to leave. Government problem yet again.

>>15582976
Yeah, sure, there's higher rates of birth defects and child cancers are more prevalent, but the real estate is so cheap!

easily accessible uranium is enough only for like 100 years *at current consumption levels*

>>15582987
Isn't there thorium for centuries too, though?

>>15582982
Yes. This is what I mean about paying so much attention to nuclear. If you did the same for the steel industry, herbicides, EVERYTHING, you would ban everything in the modern world. Just piss off and let people get on with it. If you don't like their stuff, don't buy it!

>>15582993
>implying those aren't also problems that should be solved too
>let's instead make more problems because there are existing problems
Yeah, I wouldn't enjoy living next to the fumes of a steel plant either, and they tend to put those away from population centers, go figure.

>>15583002
> I wouldn't enjoy living next to the fumes of a steel plant either,
But people do it right now. Why do you feel the need to regulate everything out of existance?

This sort of fucking idiocy is why the west is dependant on their enemies for everything!

Stop getting involved in other peoples business. If both parties involved want to do it, let them do it!

>>15583009
Yeah man, fuck regulations, let's bring back acid rain.

>>15583018
Yes, fuck all regulations. The government has done vastly more bad than good. People like you in government feel the know best, you don't, just leave everyone alone to get on with it.

>>15582797
Because it's not the magical solution you seem to think it is, and maybe, just maybe, all the scientists of the world know a little bit more about it than you do.

>>15583031
lol, k, that's retarded, but if you like hair, dirt and diseases in your food then you're free to add it yourself still.

>>15583018
>acid rain.
THE SKY IS FALLING!!!

>>15583038
Acid rain was stopped by regulations and that makes you mad for some reason. It's okay.

>>15583031
>median income: $35, 941
>median new home: $427, 527
Depressing

>>15582797
We have enough uranium for maybe 200 years. We use nuclear for 4% of our primary energy. If it was 95%, we'd have enough uranium for 8.4 years.
Gen 4 power plants would be more fuel efficient but they haven't reached an economical and scalable level of development.
>That's the world I want to see.
Why? Everyone would depend on a finite resource that's only found in a few countries in the world and we'd have to deal with the waste that some countries are starting to figure out how to deal with. 95% of the world would mean that a lot of shitholes sound operate power plants and handle the waste. That's kind of a guarantee that the next Charlie Hebdo will be blown up with a dirty bomb.

>>15583035
It's not retarded, it's reality. Using the government to pretend food, health, houses, etc are free is stupidity. Reality is fucking awful, let the free market innovate a way to make it more bearable.

>>15583050
>Using the government to pretend food, health, houses, etc are free is stupidity.
Yeah, yeah, all I'm hearing is you want more poop in your food. You're free to eat poop anon, the poo police aren't real, they won't stop you.

>>15583039
And if the customers of coal power stations didn't like the rain they would pay to not have it. The free market will find the best solution.

>>15583042
It's even more depressing when so many people are lead to be believe 2% inflation is necessary or even optimal.

>>15583059
And yet the government had to step in because what you're suggesting literally never happened once in practice.

>>15583054
I see you've lost the argument. All I want is for the government to fuck off and leave us alone. You can have a socialist commune in a society i'm describing, you can't have a free market in a socialist country.

>>15583065
We didn't and don't have a free market. National grid for example. Back then you couldn't just open a coal power station either.

>>15583067
You can always move to some compound in Liberia if you want a place without a functional government. That's what life looks like when nobody is able to cooperate en masse.

>>15583073
>Liberia if you want a place without a functional government.
See this silly response a lot in these sorts of conversations. If you can't own weapons legally in a country then it's a big sign you don't have a free market. Stop this strawmanning nonsense.

>>15583080
>wants no government
>talks about "legal ownership"
Mhm, and who decides and arbitrates this legal ownership, anon?

>>15583081
But it does have a government. It's anarcho tyranny, there's no police until you try to defend yourself. Why do you try so hard to defend the state?

>>15583032
>TRUST THE SCIENCE
take ur vaxx redditfag

>>15583087
You failed to answer the question.
Who in your mind, if not the government, the state, would decide and arbitrate legal ownership of things like weapons?
Seems like you want the state but don't want to admit you want the state.

>>15583090
>Who in your mind, if not the government, the state, would decide and arbitrate legal ownership of things like weapons?
The whole point is that they don't arbitrate it at all. Are you dense?

>>15582797
>Why the fuck isn't nuclear like 95% of our energy production?
It makes libfag pussies piss their pants and hide under the bed.

>>15582797
Jimmy Carter didn't want the US to be energy independent because it might reverse the progress of globalization.

>>15583093
So if I decide to steal your house, which you are the owner of, by force, who is going to stop me, if not state enforcement? You really fail to see that what you want is the security of the state to support you, but somehow without any laws around ownership or industry.

>>15583090
>[who] would decide and arbitrate legal ownership of things like weapons
No one. At the end of the day, sure it would be might makes right, but that's why the entire citizenry have GUNS!

>>15583098
>So if I decide to steal your house, which you are the owner of, by force, who is going to stop me, if not state enforcement?
The threat of me shooting you to death. Stop being a Kapo.

>>15583101
>points my nukes at my neighbor who is pointing his nukes at me
This is the only way to assure my safety.

>>15583098
Can't you do anything without daddy government putting your pants on for you? People are capable of self defense.

>>15583104
>has no plans in his mind for roving gangs of thieves and thugs except "have more gun"
High quality state you've planned out, obviously you've thought this through.

>>15583105
It isn't at all. If anything that sort of behavior would cause people to socially ostracize you, even if you have millions, you wont be able to spend it.

>>15583105
More like neighbors cooperate with each other to secure their homes without the threat of violence from above. Homogeneous high-trust communities naturally take care of themselves.

>>15583108

>>15583113
>point my nukes at my neighboring community because they're pointing their nukes at me
Community cooperation only extends so far.

>>15583110
>"has no plans in his mind for roving gangs of thieves and thugs except "have more gun""
I do, one is called "other people with common intrests", and "people with organizational skills to run a mob will find it more profitable to do honest work". No state required.

>>15583122
Ohhhh, so you want to form a government system of your own but without calling it a government and you think that this won't eventually become another government in the future. Makes sense.

>>15583113
this. This also defeats the "but what if the mugger shoots you first" argument. Witness are armed, and just shoot the cunt after he gets you.

>>15583126
You're purposefully being dense to try and score a witty own, but it just makes people realize that you're not pretending at all.

>>15583115
>back the blue!
>fuck the government!
make it make sense

>>15583127
They wouldn't even try it in the first place. Everyone knows that isolated European communities are extremely low-crime. The mere threat of social ostracism or retaliation puts a damper on the criminal impulse.

>>15583128
No, no, your method of "governing" your resources is definitely not just another form of "government" it's completely different, I gotcha.

>>15583126
No, not at all. I'm simply relying on the fact that my neighbors hate criminals just as much as me.

Why are you trying so hard to defend the state? It is just like a jew saying how wonderful the guards are to another jew in the camp, it's idiocy.

>>15583133
Criminals have neighbors too. You think everyone you or anyone will ever live next to is a stalwart, upstanding citizen?

>>15583136
It seems to work for everyone who tries it. Why do you think it will suddenly stop working the moment America goes back to that system?

>>15583138
Because what you seem not to realize is that governments of today are a natural outgrowth of exactly the systems you're describing that once existed. It's hilarious to suggest going back to exactly what led to today and expect it to end differently.

>>15583129

>>15583150
Glad we can agree that religion is for retards

>>15583136
Hate to be all UPB on you, but Mr stalwart doesn't want to be stolen from either. You also have more than one neighbor.

The point is that the general trend is to one where mores would-be criminals are dissuaded enough not to try, and any who do either find it unprofitable or plain dead.

>>15583142
>governments of today are a natural outgrowth of exactly the systems you're describing that once existed
Then if we suppose that is the case, the worst thing that can happen without a government is... GOVERNMENT!

Again, why on earth do you defend your slave master so bloody much?!

>>15583156
So your ideal society would be one of vigilantes?

>>15583159
Go read what has already been posted again.

>>15583158
You seem to misunderstand. What I'm saying is this shit is inevitable. The only way out is through, not to go back and loop over and over again. If we can't transcend this current system then there's nothing, we've hit the end of society and organization, it needs to be moved beyond, not repeated.

>>15583164
I don't think so. In any case, what do you believe our next societal set up will look like, I'm interested to hear.

>>15583044
>We have enough uranium for maybe 200 years.
Australia has enough KNOWN uranium to power itself for 1000 years. There's a decent chance we have more of it as well.

>>15582873
>logistical nightmare
Modern nuclear is a chicken and egg problem. All of the current analysis is based on legacy tech which makes investing in it look unattractive which means the ideal NEWER tech solutions like SMRs aren't developed.
China is the only country that has the balls to take a chance on producing SMRs and in 20 years time they'll be a world leader in Nuclear tech while the west stagnates with less effective green solutions.

https://www.csiro.au/en/news/all/articles/2023/may/nuclear-explainer

>>15583170
If the past is any indication, there will be higher levels of government that will form in the future, perhaps a North American Alliance and a South American Alliance, much like the EU. America is as strong as it is because it's huge and the states work together for their mutual benefit (usually), there's no reason this logic wouldn't apply to larger governments. The staggering amount of resources that humans put into weapons and national security because we're not cooperating properly could be spent elsewhere.
We need to make sure this planet doesn't become a total shithole together, as it's the comfiest place in the solar system, and nothing short of terraforming mars will ever come close.

>>15583188
this

>>15582797
thank jimmy carter

>>15583196
If the past is any indication, there will be higher levels of government that will form in the future
This is what I suspect is the case too, but I think speed of communication is what limits size. Why this would be desirable I don't see.

Something I wonder around this idea that more regulations of weapons must be made to in step with technological sophistication is that it creates means that as human technology improves, our freedom must become less and less. The logical end point will be freedom approaching zero. It will be like the "The day the earth stood still". How is that desirable at all?

>for their mutual benefit
The issue is that 'their' often becomes less about the individual humans making up the area, and more about the aggregate mass of them.

>nothing short of terraforming mars will ever come close.
O'niel cylinders are a more practical solution to living space.

>>15583196
>The staggering amount of resources that humans put into weapons and national security because we're not cooperating properly could be spent elsewhere.
This is one of the reasons the free market, minimal state, AnCap, are much better. If both parties are consenting to the thing everyone benefits. It's why criminality is less profitable. Public ownership of firearms gets rid of the few idiots that fall through the cracks.

>>15583198
The interesting part about SMRs is the potential to decentralize the grid and unironcally REDUCE the cost of infrastructure which is very appealing in countries like Australia with regional areas having small populations spread out over huge distances.
A town of less than <10k people could be powered by array of pic related and supplemented with solar and batteries.

>>15583215
>This is what I suspect is the case too, but I think speed of communication is what limits size. Why this would be desirable I don't see.
Right, the natural issue with bigger governments is they have far more inertia, move more slowly, are less responsive to individuals, etc. But the upsides may be so economically beneficial that individual qualities of life can improve with enhanced government cooperation.

>Something I wonder around this idea that more regulations of weapons must be made to in step with technological sophistication is that it creates means that as human technology improves, our freedom must become less and less. The logical end point will be freedom approaching zero. It will be like the "The day the earth stood still". How is that desirable at all?
More tech often = more regulation, but that doesn't necessarily mean less freedom. For instance, imagine we invented Drexler assemblers that could atomically create anything, having one of these would greatly enhance what an individual could do. If the Drexler assembler wasn't allowed to create certain dangerous things, like viruses or whatnot, it doesn't mean that you aren't still benefiting massively from the existence of this new tech.
Basically, new tech entails new possibilities, good and bad, and making the bad ones illegal isn't a bad thing.

>The issue is that 'their' often becomes less about the individual humans making up the area, and more about the aggregate mass of them.
This is true of literally any government system beyond a certain size though. Cooperation en masse becomes more about the aggregate the higher you go, there's really no way around this.

>O'niel cylinders are a more practical solution to living space.
Being able to mass produce these would be amazing, but I imagine it'd be horrifically expensive without some amazing tech. And if we can't manage to cooperate on Earth and keep it healthy, how would we fare any better in an O'neil cylinder?

>>15583230
Who negotiates such treaties on behalf of the masses in such a system? How is it decided who this person is?

>>15583237
Hope it happens.

>>15583250
No treaties to negotiate. You want to do something with Bob's land, go speak to Bob.

>>15583245
>But the upsides may be so economically beneficial that individual qualities of life can improve with enhanced government cooperation.
I don't think that a large government will be able to bring beneficial ecnomics. if you want the best economy possible that is what the free market will do.
I also don't feel that even if those economic benefits materialized that they would be sufficient to balance the lack of freedom. Some cities in China may be economically prosperous, but I don't think people there are better off enough to outweigh their state.

> If the Drexler assembler wasn't allowed to create certain dangerous things
I think the trouble there is that the method of limiting the assembler for creating something dangerous would necessitate restricting the person's freedom. Think of how censored the internet is now, or how the various chatAIs end up lobotomized to prevent them having dangerous responses. I just don't think you can make a clean cut like that.

>Cooperation en masse becomes more about the aggregate the higher you go, there's really no way around this.
I think there is with the free market. If you want a particular thing done in a certain way, you can choose to do business with the person who provides it because the free market allows competition in that way. If you can't find a company that already makes that particular thing, you may have discovered a new niche, and so could make your own business.

>I imagine it'd be horrifically expensive without some amazing tech. And if we can't manage to cooperate on Earth and keep it healthy, how would we fare any better in an O'neil cylinder?
Over time I suspect technology will advance to the point that such things become economical, just as how a modern steel hulled ship would seem unimaginable expensive to the Romans.

In any case, here is the website of Keith Lofstrom, which details his "Power Loop" that you've probably heard of from Isaac Authur.
http://launchloop.com/PowerLoop

>>15583326
Ran out of space. Power Loop is like launch loop but the rotor is used for power. Bigger is better, so you've got an excuse to have a mega government.
Also here is his "Server Sky".
They are wafer thin satellites with directly etched
http://server-sky.com/
integrated circuited and solar panels for power
Idea behind them is to give an economical reason for the launch loop. Computing power in space, beamed down anywhere on the planet.

Here's the main Lauch Loop site too.
http://launchloop.com/LaunchLoop
Cheapest way to get to space that I think is easy to do. Honestly surprised nobody's really given the Power Loop a go. It's basically just a giant magnetic bearing.

>>15583237
>A town of less than <10k people could be powered by array of pic related and supplemented with solar and batteries.
lol yeah spreading the hazardous material around so it can be dispersed or stolen easier will be great

>>15583002
>Yeah, I wouldn't enjoy living next to the fumes of a steel plant either, and they tend to put those away from population centers, go figure.
That's very much untrue. Of course the West sends steel production elsewhere now, but entire cities were build around mining, smelting, etc. In the past people were just fine with the constant taste of cancer in the environment.

>>15583360
>steel plant that is productive, but has been regulated to scrub or manage outflows of toxic gas
>steel plant that is productive, but spews toxic gas with impunity, because it's cheaper
Why do you crave the second option so badly?

>>15583351
It could work in Australia, probably not in the US.

>>15583406
Is it rama-rama to inhale uranium?

>>15582797
I guess basically this>>15582804
It sucks that there is a lot of cool shit that is possible, it's just that no one has the money or effort to put into those things.

>>15583406
aye, and Canada too, you dont want to put these in areas of political, social or economic instability. The Australian Desert, The Canadian Shield, the Poles, perhaps jungles, etc. Solid demographic pyramids, low urban density, localized food production chains, regional focused agri tech inititives, nuclear waste recycling done for real, make the home garden as convenient as the washing machine type robotics, we got a real solution to the banking crisis

>>15582797
Because many people and countries decided to go all-in in one direction in favor of dropping nuclear, just that their chosen direction is meme energy.

>once energy storage tech is fully developed, meme energy will be the best
Their unironic argument that fails to consider that if nuclear tech advances much further, then we will have massive gains for much less lands, and probably even raw materials used than muh solar/wind. Of course, neither tech reaches full potential yet so it's not like I advocate dropping everything just for nuclear. It's just that the anti nuclear crowd really is the all-in gambler type. And they have a lot of political supports nowadays.

>>15582797
>Fission
Think you misspelled that bro

Fission isn't free unlimited energy

>>15582797
glows hate nuclear

as usual, China is leading the way: 150 nuclear plants planned over the next few decades, the largest civil nuclear programme in history

>>15582797
>>15582804
Because Leftists hijacked our government and made nuclear energy too expensive.

>>15583504
omg so true
if only we had some centralized body we paid a portion of our income to that could finance these things in the interest of its citizens

>>15582797
In America people fear another 3 Mile island or Chernobyl. There's a fear of an accident and fallout.

>>15582797
Your confirmation bias prevents you from seeing the obvious.

>>15582797
Way too expensive.

>>15582873
>what if a jew manager makes shortcuts at his thorium plant. the reaction might cease or maybe a couple workers die of poisoning. nuclear is infeasible.
vs
>4 billion bugs and niggers might continue to burn dinosaur remains by the gigaton and pour raw sewage and battery acid into the rivers? they just need better windmills.

>>15584788
>In America people fear another 3 Mile island or Chernobyl. There's a fear of an accident and fallout.
The whole point of this system is that the government and regulators are literally not accountable to the people. Like what's the point of having millions of unelected and unaccountable administrators if they unanimously refuse to do the right thing?

>>15582797
Big part not mentioned yet is because main supplier of fuel rods is Russia. That's why the US pushed Germany to cut nuclear and Nordstrom

>>15582797
most green shit is CO2 fraud

>>15582993
>if you don't like their stuff don't buy it

>lives next to steel mill
>fumes waft into your house on the daily
>never interact with or buy steel
>b-b-but anon, I stopped buying all steel products and my family is still getting cancer from the fumes

shortsighted idiot faggots like you need to be gassed before you further muddy the genepool

>>15586136
>>never interact with or buy steel
highly doubtful.

>>15583230
everyone owning firearms isn't called "public ownership of firearms" that's describing everyone owning stock so to speak in a public stockpile of firearms for example.
>diatribe discarded for retardation

>>15583279
so if I need to build a pipeline across thousands of peoples' land I have to speak to every single one of them? okay, what if one of them says no? I would have to reroute my pipeline to a less efficient route.
Assuming I can find a route that everyone will allow me to build on, I have now wasted resources on a pipeline that is super inefficient, thus the free market has fucked me and has caused a worse solution. Huh, I guess eminent domain has its merits.

>>15586157
>the free market has fucked me and has caused a worse solution.
Sounds like it caused a better solution for Bob? Maybe you should make it a better solution for *everyone*, eh?

But ultimately this isn't a pragmatic issue at all, it's a logical one. Statism is false, and arguments which take the truth of Statism as a premise are invallid.

>>15586143
right, which is another reason why your argument of "don't like it don't buy it" is retarded

>>15586163
so you getting cheap oil products(free market guarantees the best solutions in your book) because I built the most efficient pipeline from oil field to refinery isn't a pragmatic issue and that's not you moving the goalposts how?

>>15582797
Lizard overlords don't want humans using nuclear energy, or even existing.

>>15586125
True and real.

>>15582797
we should save u235 for space exploration and xenocide. renewables with enough energy storage is fine. god gave us a giant fusion plant and we should use it.

>>15582797
Literally the Simpsons, not even joking, look up the effect the Simpsons have had on the image of nuclear power. The show has done more damage to the public's image of nuclear energy than Chernobyl, Three Mile Island, and Fukushima combined.

>>15582797
the aliens warned us not to fuck with that nuclear shit. and you're saying we need MORE of the green goop?

>>15582804
>money
>literally cheaper than solar panels and wind turbines

>>15586157
>so if I need to build a pipeline across thousands of peoples' land I have to speak to every single one of them?
Yes, that's right. If to build your pipeline you must put it through Sally's land, you must acquire her consent first. Isn't that totally and utterly obvious? Do you start randomly building shit on other peoples land?

>I would have to reroute my pipeline to a less efficient route.
Yes, that's right too. Not hard, people do that for mountains in the way.

>thus the free market has fucked me and has caused a worse solution
Yeah, but guess what? You didn't have to steal of murder anyone to do it. If it's not yours uhhhh, you can't touch it.
The entitlement of statists really does amaze me.

>>15586752
>>literally cheaper than solar panels and wind turbines
LOL

>>15584926
Does that take into account for the subsidies and taxes leveled for and against those production methods?

>>15586154
are you just being a grammar nazi?

everyone owns guns and can use them = criminals get shot

>>15586136
>complain to the press
People who buy the steel might care, might not too. Failing that, move house.

>but some people might be left behind
That's how the world works, eventually they or their descendants will be more fortunate. Trying to stop the entire world to keep everyone up will only bring the entire wold down. The west is reliant on it's enemies for it's basics.

If anything these regulations have made things worse by sending those factories further away from the people who buy it's products, insulating it from complaints.

>>15586868
nuclear is obscenely expensive purely due to the unnecessary regulations imposed upon it by the state.

>muh waste
throw it into the sea

>>15582797
Because nuclear is a scam. It requires fossil fuels to produce energy. In fact, nuclear costs more to build and operate than the cost of electricity it provides over the plants' lifetime.

>>15587073
>Because nuclear is a scam. It requires fossil fuels to produce energy.
can you explain this?
>In fact, nuclear costs more to build and operate than the cost of electricity it provides over the plants' lifetime.
even if this was true (it isnt) your choice atm is between nuclear or coal/oil/gas
wind and solar are intermittent sources of energy and currently cannot replace the aforementioned

>>15582797
you have to genocide normies first.
same as every other problem

>>15586752
You forgot the massive tax for the pen-pushers who justify their own existence, duh.

>>15582847
why 'decon' instead of 'decom' ?

>>15586157
>All for a pipeline, Eli.

>>15586752
Exactly. If it's cheaper then they're not making as much money as they could.

>be German
>all industry destroyed after WW2
>post-war economic miracle
>need more energy than ever ASAP
>coal mines are running dry
>hey let's try nuclear energy
>build a fuckhuge amount of plants all across country
>what do we do with the waste?
>not my problem.jpg
>t. boomer
>jk we'll think of something
>90s arrive
>nuclear waste is building up
>can't find a suitable domestic deposit site
>no other country wants to take our waste because fuck you clean your own backyard Hans
>look for deposits for like 30 years
>find something
>local community tells you to fuck off
>take your train with nuclear waste somewhere else
>environmental activists pester you along the way and tie themselves to the tracks and shit
>go somewhere else
>local community tells you to fuck off
>go somewhere else
>finally a suitable salt stock
>phew, can finally tick that off
>5 years later
>local tap water is contaminated because rain has entered the deposit and mixed with the ground water
>residents are out for your head
>take your stuff and go somewhere else
>local community now really tells you to fuck off
>go somewhere else

And that's about it.

>>15586752
sure bud

>>15582797
Because not many countries have or can make enriched uranium or plutoniun but almost anyone can buy or make windmills and solar cells of their own.

>>15583188
>Implying China will still be a stable power in 20 years

>But it's le totally safe!
>nothing ever goes wrong!!!

>>15582804
Wrong and dumb.

>>15583031
>healthcare
>free market
Nope, never has been. Why? Because all hospitals are required to treat patients for emergency care regardless of ability to pay, but the services do still cost money to provide. If a poor person goes to the hospital and then never pays his bill then he hospital still spent resources that he just never paid for. Once enough people do that, they have to charge more to the people who DO pay in order to recover the cost of the people who DON'T pay.

What would a free market healthcare system look like? One where you're literally left to die if you can't afford to pay up front for emergency care, and/or any and all of your possessions and wages can be forcibly taken from you to pay the full cost of the services you received. It would literally solve the problem of healthcare being overly expensive because everyone would pay and anyone who doesn't pay just dies and never burdens the system.

Here's the thing: No one actually wants a free market healthcare system because (rightfully) no one has the stomach to live in a world where we condemn poor people to death for becoming injured. That's what it would take to have a free market healthcare system and that's why IT DOESN'T EXIST ANYWHERE.

>>15583120
>point my nukes at my neighboring community because they're pointing their nukes at me
You just described the current state of global politics.

>>15582797
The scale and safety regulations of modern western nuclear reactors makes them too expensive private sector to handle.

>Experts have put Olkiluoto 3's final price tag at around 11 billion euros ($12 billion) - almost three times what was initially estimated.

>>15587992
I know the free market does not exist anywhere, let alone healthcare. The fact the the US government spends 1.5 trillion dollars on healthcare proves that fact irrefutably.

https://data.oecd.org/healthres/health-spending.htm
Interesting cost breakdown by this website.

>>15587898
Yes. If people made as much noise and fuss about how many bacteria cells are in your food as they did nuclear power, we'd all starve to death from fear.

Reminder that dumping spent nuclear fuel into the ocean is the most safe and cost effective disposal possible.

>>15588197
I'm guessing you've never heard of pasteurized milk? Or the fact that raw milk is illegal for some reason?
Are fukushima emissions 'spent fuel' ?

>>15588238
Louis Pasteur is a fraud and a menace who used unethical experiments to convince everyone to ruin their food and we're feeling the consequences of that more and more each generation.

>>15588246
I'm in agreement.
But the fuss was made.

>>15582988
And the 100 years bullshit is ignoring breeder reactors

>>15583038
Acid rain stopped because of regulations dumbass

>>15583152
Unironically yes. I personally worship SCIENCE... unless it goes against my feelings.

>>15588238
>pasteurized milk sterilizes it
My point still stands.

>Are fukushima emissions 'spent fuel'
No it's bureaucratic health and safety fuckwits sperging out over some radiation.

Governments, O&G, and renewables don't want you to have nuclear. It's too cheap, convenient, safe, and compact for them to scam you.

They've gotta come up with crap like building a giant modern art-come pyramid of giza to protect you from the bad vibes coming off spent fuel. Mr Burns was right, UFS.

>>15588342
>No it's bureaucratic health and safety fuckwits sperging out over some radiation.
lol
yeah, just some radiation. don't worry goy, just radiation.

>>15588342
And you're completely side-stepping my point talking about spent fuel for some reason.
Things have and will go wrong, and the problems that arise are potentially catastrophic.

>>15588363
Remind us all how many people died in the Fukushima disaster, of any cause including radiation-related conditions.

>>15582797
imagine facing the upcoming competency crisis but with 4000 nuclear plants and a ridiculously complex plutonium supply chain.

>>15588383
>people don't die in an accident
>therefore they will never die in an accident
Are you brown?

>>15588394
actually revising this.

we never would have been able to this in the first place because the education system was never good enough to mint that many nuclear engineers, and maknig it good enough too goes against the general agenda of the world's elites

>>15588410
to godddamnit

>>15588398
People historically don't die, too. The numbers in that graph include Chernobyl. The known trends are that even the most dangerous nuclear disasters don't stack up to the most dangerous fossil fuel disasters and they've only been getting less dangerous over time.

>>15588418
>Its ok bro no one died
>we'll just never be able to use these 2,600 square kilometers of land ever again

>>15588418
>People historically
Historically, radiation does kill people though

>>15588425
Not true, certainly not with modern reactors that meet modern safety standards.

>>15588433
And fossil fuels kill several orders of magnitude more.

>>15588446
>not with modern reactors that meet modern safety standards.
maybe not, unless they become the target in warfare

>>15588446
>fossil fuels kill several orders of magnitude more.
nope,
sorry greta, but you're low iq and you have a narcissistic savior complex if you belief that.

>>15588482
Greentards like Greta are against nuclear power, you ignorant fuck. And I literally provided statistics that prove what I said in the graph I posted here: >>15588383

>>15582797
Humans in a summation aren't sane enough to maintain it.
Like, what physics, engineering graduate would be able to run nuclear power plant?

>>15583044
Thorium.

>muh free market
>muh consent
Why are ancaps and lolberts so fucking retarded? If those worked then government wouldn't exist in the first place.

>>15583044
>Gen 4 power plants would be more fuel efficient but they haven't reached an economical and scalable level of development.
That's why the government should take some of that money it steals from everyone's paychecks and use it to fund nuclear development. Paying for less-than-economical solutions for the advancement and betterment of society is literally the point of the government taxing everyone but they'd rather buy more bombs to drop on foreign schools.

>Ancap discussion ITT
I thought these guys had stopped existing in like 2015

>>15582797
>tfw Scout for the Aeonic Star Empire
>Mission, analyze early pre warp civilization in the Frontier Sector 128 aka as the Xenuvian Bubble
>civilization still uses organic compounds for energy generation
>they have recently discovered Nuclear Fission but for some reason they are putting more development on primitive devices that use Wind and Solar energy instead of focusing on Fission Energy
>Fusion development is non existant and certainly not Anti Mather Energy let alone Spacial Matter
>nothing to report...
>wait recording transmission of planetary goverment
>THEY KNOW
WTF happens now boys?

>fission is invented
>big oil HATE it
>fission works fine for 2-3 decades
>then an accident happens in the us
>big oil pay news outlets to spread fear
>chernobyl accident happens
>big oil cream their pants
>all the women in the world cancel fission power because of fear and ignorance
>an earthquake and tsunami causes an accident in nippon
>that's the final straw for germany
>"it could happen to us"
>a tsunami in germany?
>shut up and build more wind turbines

>>15590495
I'm an actual interestelar being who is doing a PhD here on primitive lifeforms and my assessment of your species is that y'all fucking retarded. You guys were on the right track with Nuclear Energy but you guys fucked it up.

>>15588425
"never be able to use these 2,600 square kilometers of land ever again"
That's not the fault of radiation, that is the fault of government. Just like how coronavirus didn't cause lockdowns.

>>15589042
>if we living outside of the dungeon unshackled worked we wouldn't be here in the first place.
Governments evolved in a time before a easy and cheap fore equalizer that allows even women and children to compete with men.

Firearms means we don't need government. Go read what got posted above to find out why. Statists are Kapos.

>>15588501
>get pile of uranium
>get rod of boron
>pull rod out when too cold
>push rod in when too hot
Easy. Fuel is 10 times more expensive than coal, but you only need a millionth of it. Energy prices drop tremendously, and with it the quality of human life rises in inverse proportion.

Socalists, statists, and O&G corps don't want you to know this.

>>15590495
You're forgetting it was the combined efforts of the USSR to destroy western industry.

>>15587270
>>what do we do with the waste?
>>not my problem.jpg
>>t. boomer
>>jk we'll think of something
>>90s arrive
>>nuclear waste is building up
>>can't find a suitable domestic deposit site
Dump it in the sea. How many times does this have to be said.

>>15590495
Not only that, but they actively support wind and solar because it is almost always backed up by gas. Big oil even installed this retard as chairman of the NRC, who would block any construction for 10 years, and would try to keep Yucca mountain from being realized.

>>15582797
More jobs for politicians. Easy way to make quick money for investors who are lured in by subsidies. Other than that, outside of Europe and North America (libtard brain rot extending from the 80's), nuclear construction and operation costs are lower than renewables and even fucking coal because banks will trust them to pay back a loan over ~60 years at a low rate.

Basically, the west loses because we want to get rich quick. The banks don't want to invest in something that only breaks even 20 years later. Because of this, interest rates for nuclear projects put them way over budget (the same design built in China will cost 3x less than in the States)

These figures are from the IEA, not that Lazard crap that doesn't match up with much international experience; it's the same shit that gets us into this dumb investment cycle anyways.

>>15582797
What if they can't actually make it?

>>15582913
>30 people
lol
even the UN claims its around 4000 as a result of radiation induced cancers; Ukraine estimates its around 36000

>>15592327
Yeah they also killed 6 million russians in 2 weeks

>>15592448
those estimates are mid-2000s era, well before any war or conflict between the two states; back then they were co-developing military hardware together even
don't let the war color your opinion

>>15588413
tryhard. you could've touched base on the relevant importance of the competency crisis but i bet you're still simmering about old people to recognize the terms you won't come too.

>>15582820
yes because Uranium is so much more abundant than Oil.

They could have just made the nukedollar

>>15592730
you can literally extract uranium from the seawater for thousands of years if you wanted to, retard. try doing that with oil

>>15582797
>>15582797
>Why the fuck isn't nuclear like 95% of our energy production? That's the world I want to see.
Literally because of communist sabotage.

>>15582913
>It is expensive only due to the stupid safety regulations imposed upon it.
nuclear power isn't expensive even with these safety regulations. NIMBY simply won't approve the construction of new reactors.

>>15591455
>good evening sir how are you
>fine thanks, whats on the menu
>two-headed salmon on ice
>whats for desert
>glow in the dark codfish roe

>>15587270
>>90s arrive
>>nuclear waste is building up
>>can't find a suitable domestic deposit site
You can literally recycle spent nuclear fuel to greatly reduce the waste mass while having useful isotopes to sell. Also storing nuclear waste isn't that fucking hard, you just stack the casks in an old mine.

>>15591455
>dump into the sea
If you really want to do it the easy way drop the spent fuel into a subduction zone and it will disappear down into the mantle.

>muh chernobyl
>muh three mile island
>muh fukushima
Maybe don’t put retarded lying Ukrainians and japs in charge? Or at least make the thing fool proof.

>>15593203
>chernobyl
communism was almost entirely at fault
>three mile island
no one died
>fukushima
some chainsmoker died of cancer and his wife filed for charges, which the company paid in a PR move

>>15582797
It's the jews.

>>15593203
Only chernobyl was a big deal.

But Soviets directly killed tens of millions lmao, chernobyl is just another week for them.

>>15587898
>oh no the level rose from 0.000000001 to 0.000000002 everyone panic!!!
kill yourself retard

>>15595066
>kill yourself retard
sure i'll book a trip to fukushima and go for a dip

>>15595390
Go for it. Drowning is a pretty common method of suicide.

>>15593139
>salmon and cod swim at the bottom of the ocean
Only things that could be impacted is stuff within a few tens of meters, there's next to fuckall at the bottom of the ocean, a big pile of spent fuel would be about as toxic as a black smoker, if you went to the bother of vitrifying it all you'd have is the direct radiation it gives off, all stopped by that lovely absorbing water around it.

nuclear risks are overblown significantly.

>>15593091
point is that it is government stopping it happening. That laws should be made such that your land is yours to do with as you please. Would solve many more problems too.

>>15592327
>MUUHH CANCER!"!!!!!!"£824y9wtuweu
knock on effect. Not a death. If we did this game with all other industry, farming, energy, we would stop the modern world from fear.

Besides, the lower cost of nuclear power would save more lives than it could be assigned a contributor to death. Energy price dictates quality of life.

If you're scared of nuclear power, don't stop everyone else using it.

>>15582873
>Also it becomes a lot easier to create the material needed to produce nukes the more nuclear plants there are.
That's the main reason, the US and other nuclear powers would never allow another country to make that much nuclear plants. That's why they're pushing for gay renewable energy and shit.

>>15588398
>a once-in-a-generation disaster occurs and no one dies as a result
>this means nuclear power is incredibly unsafe
meanwhile people die every single day from coal pollution

>>15595678
might be so. Just the same, neither should be regulated at all.

>>15595777
We should put the coal burner next to your house then anon and dispose of the fly ash in your backyard. It's the minimum if you want to have any power and the quality of life improvements it brings :)

>>15582797
Jews
welcome to the nightmare that is a subsidised economy

>>15593146
>you just stack the casks in an old mine.
which eventually degrade and leak back into the ground

>>15597951
Not if you turn the waste into glass.

>>15597951
throw it into the sea and it cannot leak into your groundwater

>>15587223
I think it's short for decontamination.

Either that or deconstruction

>>15588383
What's the number for renewables and does it take into account deaths related to mining and such.

>>15587898
It's not like fukushima fucking imploded cause some some slipped on a fucking banana peel and accidentaly hit a big red button. Like in chernobyl

>>15600200
Other renewables are comparable to nuclear except for hydro which has way more deaths for some reason (still much less than fossil).
I don't think mining is included but you have to mine shit for anything so it's pretty much just inescapable. Whether it's mining coal, drilling for oil, mining uranium, or lithium and other rare earth elements, it's present in all energy generation. You could probably find numbers but not as easily, it would require more research than readily available stuff like pic related.

>>15600211
Is that really how it happened?
Someone pushed a button?

>>15600236
More or less. That and glorious soviet nuclear engineering. I exaggerated of course.

They were running some tests and one error or another led to an explosion and 30 or so direct deaths and thousands of deaths due to radiation

>>15582797
>That's the world I want to see
2 bad 4 u,
njoy ur abbreviated life shortened by stress and frustration.
the power sources we already have work just fine, no need 2 reinvent the wheel just to placate ur soience fiction fantasy life desires.
lol at ur sense of entitlement causing u 2 b upset and angry that life isn't good enough for princess

>>15582797
Because it makes it very difficult to profit from gas and coal in terms of energy generation, and it grants countries energy sovereignty. That's it. The lobbyists and American warhawks won.

>>15600236
The soviets decided giving the operators information on RMBMK instability would not be in their best concern; out of sight, out of mind, right?

>>15582797
To the goverments.
MAKE THORIUM REACTORS ALREADY, YOU SHITS. If you're going to bring forth some all green feel good BULLSHIT, at least make it HYDROELECTRIC OR GEOTHERMAL. It would not surprise me one bit if all the work fossil fuels put in to building all these fucking windmills, because you know they're not running green tankers, green strip mines, and green factories to make them, isn't even coming around as a net return in clean fucking energy

>>15584739
>>15583504
>>15586752
One of the largest reasons nuclear power was put to the wayside was because of the pro-coal lobbyists who pushed anti-nuclear rhetoric. Think about the incredible hulk, the emphasis on nuclear disasters regardless of scale being compared to Chernobyl, and look at modern day Germany. Coal has played a large role in suppressing nuclear power. Money is a reason too, but I primarily blame big coal.

>>15582797
>Why
We have uranium for 200 years at the rate of consumption of today. With youyr idea, we will run out of uranium in 10 years.
Sure, there is talk about extracting U form sea water - but that is all it is: talk.

>>15601334
Shut up anon. Everything is the fault of those damn leftists and all that communism that they’ve enabled in the government. It’s not like communists are powerless and the left wing party is actually full of liberals.

>>15603078
>we have only enough oil for 50 years, sure, there is talk of tar sands, fracking and shale oil - but that is all it is: talk.
maybe your brain is too small to understand basic economics

>>15603332
Right, the economists sur eknows how to keep the world working, right? Right?
This stagflation is just rumours...

>>15583406
Thanks to niggers