/sci/ - Science & Math

>>15549053
You know why.

>>15549053
>prayer works therefore God exists
Most scientists would agree that prayer can improve the outcome of medical conditions, if you believe strongly in Hitler you can pray to him and it would probably help with your recovery

>>15549053
They've all been praying to get laid their whole lives and it hasn't worked so they assume it never works.

>>15549053
Pray for them to admit it.

For the same reason that they won't admit that magic is real.
They're stuffy, dogmatic, and refuse to accept that their ideas could be wrong (the very basis of science is supposed to be accepting that your ideas could be wrong)

>>15549053
fear is compared to being normal i high pitched wave pattern and can discharge energy if you are in a see of low pitched wave patterns, and thats this.

>>15549084
wow that was colder as spok could ever be.

>>15549079
Lots of magic is real. The only caveat is that when magic works they stop calling it magic, therefore by definition magic is only that which doesn't work.

Take magnets for instance. Two rocks that stick to each other when they aren't even touching? Obviously magic. But it works, so it's not called magic. That's the ONLY reason it's not called magic, because it works.

>>15549053
>judeo-christian god

Why do they push this? jews and christians literally worship different and opposing gods

>>15549092
You know it's not that simple. Do Christians preface their holy texts with portions of Hindu's corpus? No. With excerpts from Greek or Roman mythology? No. With writings about Buddha? Nope. With jewish books? Yes.

>>15549065
>Most scientists would agree that prayer can improve
Shut the fuck up, faggot. They won't admit any such thing. Their seething, satanic hatred of God makes them refuse to acknowledge that prayer DOES in fact work.

>>15549053
because in fact, it does not work.

>>15549096
they ended up going through henotheism and monotheism to wind up worshipping yahweh but the rewrote their book to eliminate everything else.
as I understand it the purpose of christ was to reestablish the connection to the true god through him instead.
Pope Benedict was on record as stating that christians do not worship yhwh

>>15549111
>because in fact, it does not work.
>I mean unless you believe in objective scientific studies showing that it does, in fact, work.

>>15549096
>Moses was a Jew. I'm just sure of it.
You are astonishingly ignorant.

>A two-month national demonstration project conducted in Washington, D.C., showed how a coherence-creating group of TM-Sidhas can reduce crime and social stress and improve the effectiveness of government.
>Washington meditation project reverses violent crime trend by 23.3%
>The police chief actually went on record to assert that the only event that would reduce crime that much in Washington during the summer months would be 20 inches of snow.
https://www.worldpeacegroup.org/washington_crime_prevention_full_article.html

I hope I'm not out of place in saying this but I think people ITT are getting hung up on the wrong details. Maybe this has less to do with a specific god or gods and is much simpler. Maybe it's simply about sending out good vibes full of good will and intent out into the universe, whether through prayer or through meditation. In truth prayer and meditation are very similar so maybe they're the same thing or have the same effects.

>>15549120
This. Moses was a Black Egyptian Kemetic priest of Aten. But the jews don't want you to know this.

>>15549053
>Why won't mainstream scientists admit that placebos works?
They already do admit it anon.

>>15549163
>Moses was a Black Egyptian Kemetic priest of Aten.
OBVIOUSLY.

>>15549165
>They already do admit it anon.
S-sure they do!

>>15549141
Yes, I follow that perspective.
it's why the media stokes fear and hate

>>15549058
because it doesn't?

>>15549090
there's nothing magical about magnets
you might as well call everything magic then

>>15549297
>things exerting forces without touching isn't magic

magic is only shit we don't understand. always has been, and retarded homo sapiens will always call shit they don't understand magic. because it's the simplest most retarded explanation chimps can come up with.

>>15549065
>randomized double-blind protocal
placebo does not explain the paper I cited

>>15549053
The placebo effect is well documented

>>15549297
Human beings can turn cities to dust and fly through the sky inside pieces of metal, all while transmitting messages to their mom instantaneously via a box in their lap. Magic *is* obviously real you're just desensitized to it.

>>15549373
>>15549370

>>15549053
The answer is not that complex. A macro, federal, force has to counterbalance local, let's say more natural and rooted, forces. This is not a novelty from scientism, this goes back to the monolithic Cathedral, the Church. In fact this goes back to Classical times and even before.

As the population grows the State/Church/Academia stops recognizing heroes/saints/scientists and starts persecuting superstitions/"fake" news, which is paradoxical considering more people = more great individuals. Instead of feeling abandoned and zucced you should notice this is by design to create stability. You can and should still keep growing, getting better, creating math etc but to Always expect social recognition is vanity.

>>15549053
>cites an article from 1988
>ignores all the subsequent articles that disagree
This kids is how religion works.

>>15549374
>>15549359

>>15549375
How can the paper possibly rule out placebo? That's kind of an absurd assertion for an experiment like this.

>>15549379
isn't this exactly what >>15549090 said?

>>15549386
no, that dude is retarded. magic is exactly when something works, but you have no logical explanation for it.

>>15549399
No. Magicians almost have explanations for for what they're ostensibly doing. Alchemists had complex systems of theory to back up what they were trying to do. So do astrologers, acupuncturists, etc. It's not having a theory to explain the thing that makes something not magic; it's that thing and the theory ACTUALLY WORKING that makes it not magic.

In fact the theory isn't even necessary. Things that work but don't yet have an explanatory theory aren't called magic. When 18th century researchers were toying around with static electricity and batteries for the first time, they didn't have any usable theory for what the hell was going on. But they didn't call it magic. When the age of sail explorers were using magnetic compasses to determine which way was north, they didn't have any theory of explaining how magnetism and compasses worked (or certainly not a theory that we'd call correct today) They only knew that it worked. And because it worked, it wasn't called magic.

>>15549053
Oh yeah, it works pretty well as a mood booster, just like essential oils. Mood boosting is a well documented way to lengthen a terminal prognosis or aid in curing a non-terminal illness. There is just something nice about giving your woes and strife to someone else to handle.

Don't get me wrong, I am a godless heathen, but I do understand the appeal of having the ultimate mental fallback the faith in a caring higher being gives.

>>15549409
>Magicians almost have explanations for for what they're ostensibly doing.
magicians don't exist for fucks sake. they are not real, they are doing tricks.
magnets have always had that magic quality, but not that real magic that you must be referring to.
anything that's common is not really magic, even if you don't understand how it works. we get used to shit we can't understand but is common occurrence.

>>15549421
I'd like to point out that it acts as a supplement, hence the oil comparison. Can't pray away herpes.

>>15549425
I gave you examples of such "magicians". Alchemists, acupuncturists, astrologers. All of these people have complex theories explaining how their systems of magic are meant to work. None of them actually work, and that's why we call them magic.

> magnets have always had that magic quality, but not that real magic that you must be referring to.
Magnets are the realist kind of magic, the kind that actually work. But the most real kind of magic is precisely the sort of magic that isn't called magic, because if it works then we don't call it magic. Magic is the unreal.

>>15549053
Because god is fake you're literally invoking the placebo effect. You're just so mentally deluded, you believe so hard that you make you're body rally. Try it with cancer or a broken leg and see how that works out.

>>15549437
>All of these people have complex theories explaining how their systems of magic are meant to work. None of them actually work, and that's why we call them magic.
no dude wtf, we'd call them magic IF they'd work. this is really strange for me, you're the first person I interacted with that didn't understand what magic is.
>Magnets are the realist kind of magic, the kind that actually work.
no, it's not magic, we kinda know what's going on and we use that shit everywhere.

>>15549452
>we'd call them magic IF they'd work
No, if they worked we'd call them science.

If it works, it's science. If it doesn't work, it's magic. The only difference is whether or not it works. The existence of a theory ostensibly explaining the thing doesn't determine whether it's called magic or science. There are scientific phenomena for which we have no explanation, and systems of magic which do have explanations.

Magic that works is said to be science, not magic. And science that doesn't work is said to be magic. Alchemy doesn't work, so it's magic. Chemistry works, so it's science.

no bro, if we'd witness something which breaks say the laws of thermodynamics we'd call that magic, it isn't supposed to be possible.
same thing 1000 years ago if you showed them an electrical lightbulb or some shit from today. with what they knew back then, that wasn't supposed to be possible, ergo magic.
same thing with magnets the first time you see them. they are magic because rocks aren't supposed to do that based on everything you know.
it's magic if it works and "shouldn't".

Ayo so what is it when you have that one fridge magnet that keep falling down? It ain't work for shit

>>15549475
capitalism

>>15549370
In my opinion, what we so dismissively call the "placebo effect" is actually the human mind expressing its innate ability to instigate healing in the body. Humans have a vast psychic potential for healing themselves through the power of positive thoughts and beliefs (and for making themselves sick with negative thoughts and beliefs) but scientists will always dismiss it as "woo" and insist that if a placebo helped you then the illness was all in your head to begin with. We should be doing more to study the ability of humans to consciously initiate healing in their own bodies, but that doesn't make the hospitals and pharmaceutical companies any money.

>>15549090
>the pun in that image
A hearty belly-kek was had. Thank you, anon.

>>15549481
I think many doctors are aware of the general idea that a good mindset helps with recovering from whatever is fucking you up. makes sense.
the question is, how much is your body able to do, and in which circumstances.

>>15549485
>the question is, how much is your body able to do, and in which circumstances.
I genuinely think the answers are a lot more than we know in a lot more circumstances than we think. I think the "we're all vibrationally connected" mysticism crowd is onto something in more ways than most people are willing to admit or accept.

>>15549053
This is just placebo, someone praying will likely remain more calm and relaxed than someone who doesn't but the real reason is them becoming calm and relaxed not the praying

>>15549498
>just placebo
We should be celebrating and deeply investigating the placebo effect and how deep it can go. Callously dismissing it as "just" placebo does a disservice to how much the placebo effect can actually do to help someone heal.

>>15549501
The mind is a really powerful thing, is the same as the nocebo effect, if you really become obsessed over the thought that something is doing you damage then you will stress over that and actually do yourself damage

>>15549053
The various health benefits of spiritual practices are neither new nor controversial.

>>15549501
Sure, though I think the magick people are doing more work on that than praying christians.

>>15549463
>no bro, if we'd witness something which breaks say the laws of thermodynamics we'd call that magic
No we wouldn't. We'd refine our understanding of what the rules of the universe are and continue to call it science.

Nuclear physics has already demonstrated this; converting matter into energy or vise versa violated the laws of thermodynamics as they were then understood. Instead of calling it magic, our understanding of the rules was refined and we call it science, not magic.

>>15549108
>>15549370
I never said it was placebo, what I said is that prayer does work, the same way counseling or therapy might improve physical symptoms because psychological well being does translate in physical well being through physiological effects

>>15549475
Be happy that it doesn't work. Fridge magnets can cause sudden adult death syndrome.

>>15549108
>They won't admit any such thing

he posts seethingly in a thread where OP pic is about scientists admitting such a thing

>>15549053
I think I have an explanation for part of this if you'll hear me out.

So there was a japanese researcher can enomoto who investigated the properties of water.
he would take water samples from different places like sacred springs, rain water or tap water and put them through a bizarre set of processes then compare how they froze under a microscope studying their crystaline structure.

So one time he asked a buddhist monk to pray at one bottle of water, another he had groups of people hold hands in a circle and project feelings of love at the bottle.
one of his more famous experiments involved jars of cooked rice with different words labelled on them.

So anyway he found that the effect of prayer and positive thought literally changed the crystaline structure of water giving them large well ordered forms unlike tap water or water put in a microwave where the crystal shape were distorted or minimal.

now a water researcher called pollack discovered this fourth gel like phase of water, the properties seem to match enomoto's
research using pollack's discovery found that this gel water is actually essential for cellular function and the flow of blood amongst other things.

so one explanation is that prayer is conveying a form of well structured energy that the body can use to fix itself

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19370557/

Meta-analysis disagrees

because want to call meditation

>>15549090
No, that's closer to modern stage magic, which uses magnets all the time. Older forms of magic was about influencing outcomes and isn't something that gets explained away by materialism.

>>15549384
>>15549439
>>15549498
Does /sci/ seriously not know what double-blind means?

>>15549481
>scientists will always dismiss it as "woo" and insist that if a placebo helped you then the illness was all in your head to begin with.
This is nonsense.

>>15549934
and by the way, why do you think new medicines are tested against the placebo effect instead of nothing at all?

>>15549053
Because of the implications.

>>15549065
God's existence is a required condition for anything to exist, the laws of science alone require a Creator God. I'm tired of explaining it all the time, go do your own homework.

>>15549943
Oh that's a cool old trick, shamens are able to steer hurricanes with their aura. probably works on the same principle

>>15549943
It is absurd to imagine God diverted the hurricane from Florida because some people begged Him not to.
It was obviously because Florida is a God-forsaken earthly Gehenna and He will not allow the sinners any untimely release from their suffering.

>>>/x/
this board is such a retard corral now

>>15549943
nigger

>>15549921
I'm not talking about magnets to do hidden tricks. I'm talking about magnets just being magnets.

>>15549934
>>15549937
They essentially treat the placebo effect the same as random chance. The thought is that if the placebo effect provides the same results as the drug then the drug is actually not effective or worth producing. They don't think of the placebo effect as a person's mind actively healing them in ways that could be isolated and improved, they think of it as an artifact that proves a drug isn't actually doing anything.

>>15549845
Christcucks absolutely rekt

>>15549053
why is it that your kind posts nonsense like this then refuses to go to a religious healer?

>>15549845
>sorry, your ability to heal yourself and your loved ones has been debunked
>now spend your life savings on our proprietary drugs and poison the symptoms away

>>15549053
They do admit that prayer works, just not in the way you want. They are not saying that god is real. Unlike this article suggest, it does not have to be the christian god specifically. Belief in whatever god that person believes in can help in certain ways, giving them this belief in a higher power gives them that extra will to survive in very bad times. They believe there is something outside of themselves that keeps them going, it gives them a purpose.

>>15550202
add to this the minds power to influence health. If someone is filled with happy feelings it can improve health. If they believe something strongly enough.

>>15549943
guess god hates all the people that got fucked by that hurricane and other natural disaster
muslims who constantly pray to the same game as christians can go fuck themselves i suppose?

>>15550101
You can do this sort of energy healing yourself.

>>15549948

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKmveexaw0E

>>15550210
It's not necessarily that God diverted the hurricane, but that a large enough group of people expressed a genuine belief that allowed them to influence and shape reality around themselves.

>>15550227
Well that was misleading and never mentions the tornados...

>>15550227
https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/18158-steeringdissolving-tornadoes-real-shamans/

>>15550246
are you implying humans are fucking jedi force users?

>>15550351
If that metaphor helps you understand it, then sure. The reality is more complex than that.

The study doesn't seem to mention that they controlled for the severity of the heart problems of each patient.

>>15549092
You worship Jesus an he's Jewish

>>15550987
Judaism post-dates Christianity and is based on Pharisaic worship of the law over the Trinity.

>>15549845
That meta-study only addressed prayer's effect on death. There's also a clear indication of bias in the assertion from the authors that all further study into the topic should be halted.

Meanwhile, we have this (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2802370/):

"Clinically significant treatment gains have been observed with placebo in numerous disorders, including anxiety, depression, schizophrenia, obsessive-compulsive disorder, tardive dyskinesia, ischemic heart disease, cardiac failure, Parkinson's disease and even cancer, among a host of other conditions. Relevant to the context of prayer and healing, the placebo response is influenced by personality traits and behaviors such as optimism, response expectancy, motivational concordance (i.e., the degree to which the behavioral rituals of the therapy are congruent with the motivational system of the subject) and degree of engagement with a ritual."

Go seethe.

>>15550987
Modern "Jews" are actually Edomites. Jesus was not an Edomite. I understand your confusion since you probably don't read.

>>15549053
so you claim you inform gawd about your problems and he solves them for you? did jesusnot warn you that asking for things in prayer is retarded?

>>15550365
so you are saying it's not god but a thing we don't understand about human brains?

>>15551124
I don't think you've actually read this, since the main conclusion from this review is that there is next to no evidence of any benefit of prayer and plenty of evidence of null or negative.


Putting a purposeful review without meta-analysis from random psychiatric journal from India on the same level as a systematic review from Cochrane is informative, too.

>>15551562
Yes.

>>15549053
Bruh it's literally just the placebo effect and they didn't even give the control group sugar pills.

Also outside of placebo it's known that stress realief and mindset can effect outcomes. So then you'd have to compare it to similar practices like meditation or magick. And see how it compares. The christian god probably has zero to do with the effectiveness.

>>15552125
>just the placebo effect
Ah, yes, JUST the placebo effect. People were able to heal themselves and improve their outcomes with nothing but a thought, and we absolutely need to minimize that fact! It's JUST a placebo, not anything effective! Healing and improved outcomes only count when you're injected with shit!

>Also outside of placebo it's known that stress realief and mindset can effect outcomes.
Oh, so stress relief isn't just a placebo because we understand how stress affects the body. Placebo is only when a method makes me uncomfortable in my lack of knowledge of what's happening.

>The christian god probably has zero to do with the effectiveness.
OP did not once mention God, he only said that prayer works. Yes, the study focused on one type of prayer to one God, but OP never said its success had to be the result of intervention from God, only that it works. And if it works, that means people who are taught to pray for others are being taught correctly because it's an effective method for helping someone.

>>15552087
>i don't understand what it is and i don't have an explanation for it
but also
>i am 100% certain that it isn't god

>>15552905
I never claimed 100% certainty on anything.

>>15549377
You are a smart person

>>>/x/

>>15549053
Because it means they would have to try and figure out HOW prayer works which they refuse to

Science doesn't like the manifestation of thought energy. But magic is still real. Even illusions are real. Prayer is not magic, is not an illusion, and can but isn't always real.

>>15549053
>Why won't mainstream scientists admit that prayer works?
Because atheists hate truth, atheism is a religion for liars

>>15552135
>Ah, yes, JUST the placebo effect. People were able to heal themselves and improve their outcomes with nothing but a thought, and we absolutely need to minimize that fact! It's JUST a placebo, not anything effective! Healing and improved outcomes only count when you're injected with shit!

The placebo effect isn't magic, it's just part of "spontaneous" recovery, which is a synonym for unknown mechanism. It's the same as when someone gets an accurate horoscope - you can either accept that random things will happen sometimes and sometimes the thing that happens is extremely improbable (but still possible).

Prayer is hard to research. You need multiple research conditions, including accounting for people praying for themselves and other friends and family doing the same. That way you could separate the "prayer is meditation" effect from "prayer is magic" effect. Intercession prayer should also work whether the prayer target knows (or not), so having having different groups of patients who aren't praying for themselves means you can blind some participants to account for a potential placebo effect.

The really hard part is working out the circumstances where prayer is effective. For example, wouldn't we expect everyone being prayed for to recover? If only some recover, why only some and is it down to some divine choice (in which case why pray at all?). It's also hard to square away the supposed power of prayer with the potential effects. If we're invoking the supernatural (and many advocates of prayer would say they're praying to THE supreme power), why aren't the effects larger? I'm not even sure most religious people can articulate why they're praying.

>>15552905
Atheist logic (AKA illogic)

>>15554817
So you wanted thing asked the higher authority and got thing

Somehow this don't follow logic

>Why won't mainstream scientists admit that prayer works?
>posts a paper saying that prayer works
Max IQ to do this?

>>15555678
>one paper from 1988 means all mainstream scientists are comfortable admitting prayer works

>>15555678
over nine thousand

>>15555856
and let me guess, has never been replicated.
>me: gief
>god: sure why the fuck not.

>>15550987
Why do atheists all consider themselves to be such experts in Christianity that they presume they know more about it than the Christians do?

>>15549053
>Byrd
This study was tainted by a massive breach in protocol that saw the prayer group learning they were in the prayer group.
Attempts to recreate its results have failed

If prayer to (((Jehovah))) works so well, why is the probability of a miraculous healing exactly proportional to the probability of natural healing?
Why doesn't God heal amputees? Why doesn't God heal prion diseases? Why doesn't God heal genetic diseases?
>>15549932
Yes, unlike the authors of the paper. >>15557210

>>15549947
>the laws of science alone require a Creator God.
Source: I made it up.

>>15557207
Its common knowledge that christian's don't read the bible themselves, they just have their pastor interpret the important parts and tell them what to do to the point that bibles used to only be written in latin while most people were speaking english.

>>15557347
Daily Bible study is commonplace in all Protestant denominations.

Genuine, non-trolling question. What is the actual point of prayer? And assuming that prayer is intercession with a divine being (and not just a meditation effect), does prayer change that divine beings mind or intention?

I often see Christians pointing to prayer and the effects of prayer as evidence of God, but it just leads back to the same old free will versus determinism arguments again. If God heals someone because you prayed, was God always going to heal them, or was God waiting to see whether you prayed?

>>15557210
>massive breach in protocol that saw the prayer group learning they were in the prayer group
source?

>>15557302
>divine human made in the image of his creator made it up
Let me guess, you "need" more proof?

>>15557347
>i'm an athest, thats why i'm an expert on Christianity and The Bible, i know more about Christianity and The Bible than Christians who actually read The Bible regularly
how come atheists are so smart?

>>15557512
Why won't mainstream /r/atheism posters (((you))) admit that prayer works?

>>15557299
>Why doesn't God heal amputees? Why doesn't God heal prion diseases? Why doesn't God heal genetic diseases?
He spent all his mana doing shit in the old testament and is still recovering
Sorry, some nun having a jesus hallucination is all you're getting now

>>15557512
Prayer, like meditation, is simply a method to focus human intention, and human intention can indeed affect reality.

>>15549053
>prayer works
not only does it work, it works better than science does

>>15549090
based and juggalopilled

>>15549053
Because they're atheists and atheists are all liars

>>15549943
Honestly this bullshit disgusts me
Implies all the other people who prayer DIDN'T work for weren't sincere enough or weren't "worthy" enough.

>>15561275
It only implies that if you assume that a decision-making god is the cause of answered prayers.

>>15560209
I can understand how this might work in the same way a meditative state might for the person doing the prayer (assuming they're praying *for* something), but I don't understand how it works with something like intercessory prayer on behalf of someone else. The target doesn't get the meditative state, so unless they're unblinded to the prayer happening, the only way it could work is via the supernatural.

Which leads me back to the question - what is the prayer doing, then? Would the supernatural power being prayed to have acted differently if they were not prayed to, or if the pray-er asked for something else?

>>15561343
>what is the prayer doing, then?
I think they are saying that prayer affects the wavefunction of various shit. like affects probabilities.
but would this work for summoning a black hole? if enough people pray for this, are we really in danger of a blackhole appearing and fucking us up?
also, does how many pray matter? that means that we could quantize in prayer units of sorts. also we can work out how many prayers were needed to divert the storm, which implies a certain equivalent force acting on it. so we could find out how much force a human prayer is able to affect something with.

>>15557207
They're lying murderers.

>>15557347
>>15549962
Murderer

>>15561275
I've stopped explaining heavenly things to 4chan murderers. You'd all torture and murder me if given the chance solely because I say things you don't like.

>>15549421
>>15549053
Prayer works because religion has always been a cope. If you are "emotionally" upset, you will be physically more stressed, which has a lot of physically damaging effects. Your body isn't going to be recovering as well if you are in a "fight or flight" status. So, you pray, your body relaxes, and you might heal better. The only downside of course is intellectual lobotomy, and that you can relax without resorting to prayer

>>15561971
>religion intellectually lobotomizes you
>that's why the vast majority of fundamental scientific discoveries in history were made by religious people

>>15561388
>I've stopped explaining heavenly things to 4chan murderers. You'd all torture and murder me if given the chance solely because I say things you don't like.

>>15561992
>religious people
some religious people. which were exceptionally smart compared to the commoner. for the layman, religion strips him of his reasoning abilities. to the genius, religion can bring him inspiration, but it's by no means necessary

>>15562106
>some people are smart critical thinkers and most people are dumb sheep
>BECAUSE OF RELIGION
No, your logic is faulty. The majority of people also blindly accept whatever they're told scientific experts say is correct.

>>15549053
What? That doesn’t prove prayer works. It does proves that it feels good to pray which everyone knows was already a thing. What’s with this thread

>>15562161
And praying being therapeutic isn’t the same as it working. Because it’s supposed to change the material world most of the time I think. I really don’t understand this thread

>>15562161
>>15562164
Also what’s with the constant anger of religious and atheist folk on this site and the nonsensical assumptions on human character? You people are severely autistic and retarded.

the placebo effect is very well documented actually

>make unfalsifiable claim
>claim is unfalsifiable
>OH EM GEE I HECKING WON THE DEBATEARINO

>>15549053
because they're atheists and atheists are all dishonest

>>15549053
Hang on a minute. Doesn't double bline placebo trial imply belief in placebo?
Then its a short logical leap to prayers no?

>>15549096
A lot more of history makes sense when you realize there was a shadow war between jews and witches and the jews obtained total victory

>>15563453
Not sure if this is what you mean, but a placebo controlled trial means that there is a comparison group that according to as many metrics as possible is equal to the treatment under investigation (i.e. same mean age, SES, gender proportions, any other relevant factor). That way, the only measurable difference between the two groups is that one receives an active intervention and the other doesn't, so any post-intervention differences on an outcome variable can be attributed to the intervention. For example, if two groups who are otherwise equal in all regards except that one group gets a new medicine and the other doesn't, the researchers will look to see if the group taking the new medicine end up with fewer symptoms compared to the other. In most medical trials, all participants keep receiving their usual treatments, and the new medicine or placebo is added on top. So, you'd usually expect all participants to improve somewhat, but as a researcher you'd hope you that the change is greater in the intervention group.

That part about researcher motivation is quite important since scientists are human and want to make positive discoveries, and research trials are expensive and take ages to do properly, so there is a heavy risk of bias if the researchers are given too much influence over the findings. One way to reduce that risk is double blinding, which is where the neither the researchers nor the participants know whether they're receiving a placebo or an active medicine. Once the study is over and the data are analysed, then "unblinding" occurs. In big NIH and equivalent studies, the blinding and randomisation (another huge part of trial design that I won't go into now) is done by an independent statistician or similar.

>>15563745
So your saying placebo is to hide who gets the real shit instead of belief in placebo in and of itself

>>15563763
Close, placebo is the baseline we use to show if something is effective or not. Let's say I make you a coffee and I can't remember whether I put sugar in it or not, and you can't tell by looking. So I tell you to taste it, and tell me whether you think I did put sugar in or not. If I didn't give you sugar, you shouldn't be able to detect any sweetness. Regardless of what you tell me, maybe a few minutes later I notice that I've got an opened packet of sugar, so I know for a fact that you didn't get any in your coffee.

Imagine that you'd told me that you thought you tasted sugar, even though I know there was none in the coffee. That's the placebo effect, and it's the power of suggestion.

For a medicine or other intervention to be considered effective, it needs to outperform that placebo effect. In the coffee example, maybe I hand you another coffee that I know definitely has sugar in it - even blindfolded, you'd expect most people to report that the sugary coffee is sweeter than the non-sugary, this outperforming the placebo.

>>15549053
>Why won't mainstream scientists admit that prayer works?
because they are hedonistic atheists

>>15549053
because they are fake and gay

>>15561992

>>15565805
all atheists are

>>15561992
>the vast majority of fundamental scientific discoveries in history were made by religious people
atheists on the other hand have contributed nothing whatsoever to science, because they are intellectually incapable of doing so

>>15569180
No, what I said doesn't even imply I believe that at all.

>>15549359
this deprives the primitive "magic" explanation of unknown phenomenon of too much cleverness imo. a lower animal simply perceives what is and what is not. a human seeing something they don't understand KNOWS there is a system of some kind in play, but does not know the rules. "magic" has near universally been understood to be a "system" of some kind, that men (or very few men) have sufficient knowledge of to operate or manipulate, but one that could be manipulated or wielded nonetheless. as long as there have been myths of magic, there have been myths of magic practitioners.
i think this is a fairly notable differentiation. between "idk lol" of animals and "idk but it's got to have some rules i can't grasp" of humans.

>>15557299
>why is the probability of a miraculous healing exactly proportional to the probability of natural healing?
That is just two names for the same phenomenon.

What’s the p-value?

>>15570569
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/3393937/

>>15549163
Moses was ThutMOSES

>>15561992
dont bless this cursed thread with her angelic beauty

>>15549053
mainstream scientists should all become faithful christians, science worked better back when every scientist started their education with plenty of education in christianity. we would have mars colonies right not if atheists and jews hadn't gotten involved in science.
why can't atheists and jews make their own institutions? why do they have to subvert and ruin chiristian ones instead?

>>15549377
>social recognition is vanity

Social recognition has more value beyond mere vanity. It's also for survival. If you don't have a large social network, your ideas, discoveries, inventions won't go very far. Nothing gets attention based on merit alone.

>>15549058
Because academia is a means of separating people from the traditional beliefs and values that have preserved them for centuries?

>>15573869
thats what brainwashing is all about

>>15549762
Cool shit. Can you point me some more stuff related to that?

>>15550351
I'd say its closer to the Orks in 40k than jedi mind powers.
I don't believe prayer moved anything besides our fingers on keyboards to prove prayer didn't do anything. Yes I know those two ideas clash but on purpose.

>>15549053
>Why won't mainstream scientists admit that prayer works?
Because they're atheists and atheists are all liars

Why won't mainstream religions admit that science reveals the intricate, beautiful truths of God's world that He intended for us to see and master?

>>15576697
They do, the scientific method was developed by devout religious Christians

>>15551562
God is more like a force of nature than a conscious being

>>15549053
>Why won't mainstream scientists admit that prayer works?
Because they're atheists and atheists are all liars

>>15578394
White lies, to save the serfs from the corrupt church and monarchists. Yes god exists but we have to lie he doesn't until we defeat the opressors who hijacked faith. Atheists are willing to sacrifice their souls to free your body. Such is the intensity of their love for their fellow man

>>15578412
>White lies, to save the serfs from the corrupt church
Atheists support the corrupt church, they just prefer the one where the priests wear lab coats.

>the absolute state of this board in current year

>>15578517
>the one where the priests wear lab coats.
Not really all that different from traditional priest robes. Slap a pair of nerd glasses and an ugly wig on picrel and you've got Twum

>>15549058
because they're all atheists?
because prayer cannot be monetized?

>>15557299
>Why doesn't God heal amputees?
This. Proto-Reddit atheists btfo Christnog prayercucks, and they've never recovered.

>>15557299
It's quite simple anon: all of those conditions are from a certain injection and God will not hear anybody branded with the mark of the beast.

>>15580603
>amputees didn't exist before 2020

>>15580755
My uncle took the vax and his arms fell right off.

>>15580798
Disarming the populace is a big part of ZOG's totalitarian goals

>>15580603
and yet purebloods keep dying from those conditions anyway
fascinating

>>15580798
Correlation not causation; that was just Jehovah's punishment for masturbation

>>15549053
All this paper proves is that P-hacking works

>>15561992
>>15561992
it's no secret that using your brain started with religious thinking. priests in egypt, babylon, etc heavily got math off the ground. all educational institutions in the west started off as halls of church learning. This was more of a social consequence than anything. There was no way to socially justify sitting around and just "using your brain" without it being a religious activity. Worse, everything you did had to be necessarily describing the religious activity of your culture. Imagine if you had to spend >75% of your time programming, doing math, doing chemistry etc, praising George Floyd. Imagine that every single variable had to be called saintFloyd or wypepoRacis. Imagine you were forced to exclusively use Monkey Sort as that was the most holy of all Algorithms. Imagine instead of looking at the start of the big bang, you had to draw little lines between stars that showed a big lipped Floyd. And if you didn't do any of this, you would be exiled or executed.

The enlightenment is the proof that we are better off not focusing on religious activity. But it was only the beginning. There are still countless vestigial organs from the thousands of years of religious activity holding us back. Our institutions of higher learning desperately need reform. Morality creeps its disgusting claws into governance, medicine, biology. We have a long way to go.

>>15581346

>>15581827
>The enlightenment is the proof that we are better off not focusing on religious activity.
The current period is proof that science can't be done by people who are not religious. Atheists are all too dishonest to understand consistent rational belief systems.

>>15549053

I'm an atheist and I've been aware of this for a long time. I happily concede this one on whatever scientific merits it has, as well as the related health and psychological benefits of freely practicing one's religion. Of course you'll feel more at-ease and more happily adjusted if you are free to follow a worldview that you find agreeable, and which you feel gives some purpose to life.

Theists love to point this out, and I don't bother arguing that practicing religion tends to lead to better health, improved well-being etc, because that's actually true and they're right about that one. The "dull" counter-argument would be to point to the exceptions, people being killed or harmed in connection with religious practices, but that's boring and also a dishonest brainlet dodge in its own way (and people are also killed and harmed in connection with atheistic practices all the time, so this doesn't get us anywhere).

What I prefer to say is that pointing out the health and psychological benefits of religion is a kind of appeal to nature in order to justify religion itself, a lazy conclusion which I reject. I take exactly the opposite view: the psychological benefits of religion are not a proof that religion is good (which is usually how they like to frame it), but exactly the other way around, it is an indication of the fundamentally flawed nature of humanity itself, that humanity is dependent on certain false narratives for a certain kind of psychological well-being. Our task is not to accept religion, but if possible, to become beings capable of doing without it. To become, quite literally, inhuman. You don't need to get right with god. What you need to do, is to get right with reality.

>>15549053
because scientists fuck dogs so they hate religions, all of which ban dog fucking.

>>15549141
Do the study three or four more times with the same results and I'll consider believing it.

>>15583258
>humanity is dependent on certain false narratives
they aren't false narratives

>>15549141
Correlation =\= causation.
Also, nice "source."

>>15585947
of course
they couldn't be false
otherwise you and everyone like you would be a total fucking rube who completely fell for some wacky bullshit peddled by insane people
which is obviously not acceptable
thus they aren't false

>>15549053
>Why won't mainstream scientists admit that prayer works?
They have since 1811

>>15584093

>>15586442
>ancient wisdom says people can heal themselves if they put their mind to it
>science scoffs at ancient wisdom and says people need drugs to heal everything
>science discovers placebo effect
>science still scoffs at ancient wisdom and refuses to fully uncover the depths of healing possibility within the human mind because it's not as profitable as selling pills

>Why won't mainstream scientists admit that prayer works?
They prefer to rely on their replication crisis lies for their worldview rather than on real world data

>>15586948
>science still scoffs at ancient wisdom and refuses to fully uncover the depths of healing possibility within the human mind
maybe because the "ancient wisdom" doesn't commonly express itself as people using mindfulness to manage chronic pain, but as retards shooting maple syrup up their child's ass instead of taking them to the hospital for bacterial meningitis

>>15587647
What you're describing is a symptom of ancient wisdom being disregarded for so long that most people don't even know what it is any more.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Efficacy_of_prayer#Third_party_studies
>the strongest findings were for the variables that were evaluated most subjectively
In other words, worthless.

>>15587763
No, what's being described is idiots doing idiot things (as they have since the dawn of time), cloaked in the name of 'ancient wisdom'. Actual wise ancient people would not do half the shit these modern idiots do.

>>15587763
>people don't even know what it is any more
then what use does it have, brainlet
punching holes in your skull to let demons out is also ancient wisdom, give that a shot before you make a dumbass post like this again

>>15587849
So the argument against studying and experimenting with alternative care options based on ancient teachings is that people today just can't be bothered to try to figure it out?
>have a technology
>lose that technology
>hey, should we try to figure out how that lost technology worked based on what little we do still know?
>no, that's stupid because it's lost technology.

>>15587647
>people using mindfulness to manage chronic pain
they prefer fentanyl

>>15583258
>I'm an atheist and I love talking about myself
why is this such a common feature of atheists?

>>15587849
>punching holes in your skull to let demons out is also ancient wisdom
no it isn't

>>15549053
Because they're prejudiced against religious people

All of you goddamn retards saying 'placebo' don't seem have the mental capacity to read and understand the abstract. The patients themselves weren't praying. A completely different group was praying FOR them. The two group of patients didn't know if they were being prayed for.

>>15549065
It was someone else praying for them loverboy

>>15549065
>>15549165
>>15549373
>>15549439
>>15549498
>>15549671
>>15550202
>>15551124
>>15552125
>>15553745
>>15562161
>>15562189
Retards, all of you:
>>15592477

>>15592511
>Retards, all of you:
Atheists are low IQ

>>15592481
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bohVV_KlSHw

>>15549053
because they can't make money on it like they can with drugs

--> because Mainstream 'Science' isn't real science, it has become a Religion

A BELIEF SYSTEM that they have FAITH in.

>>15598201
the pope makes a lot of money on prayer and he is all for globohomo faggotry same as the soience faggots are

>zero people ITT have correctly identified the massive, glaring, blatant flaw in the study so far
this board is beyond salvation. i'm a christian but fucking reddit atheists would do better at evaluating this study than you retards.
the key is here:
>The control patients required ventilatory assistance, antibiotics, and diuretics more frequently than patients in the IP group.
these seem like odd things to measure by themselves, right? why would you check just these three things for your study?
the answer is that you wouldn't, and the researcher didn't. he checked over two dozen different things and only reported the ones that showed up significant at p < .05 in the abstract. it's a textbook example of the multiple comparisons problem. you can go grab the full paper off sci-hub and see this for yourself.

>>15549053
>prayer works
intercessory prayer. the kind jesus said you should not do, you should not ask in prayer for anything since gawd knows what you need. too bad he himself could not keep this in mind for more than three sentences in the lord's prayer.

>>15600812
>the kind jesus said you should not do
What the hell are you talking about?

>>15600829
Its another completely objective atheist who condsiders itself an expert in Christianity, which it lividly hates, but would never every consider criticizing judaism or muslimism

>>15549053
They do know it can have some positive mental effects for the delusional. They just aren't retarded enough to think magic is real.

>>15602569
you're illiterate

How come people are only angry about the fact that science had proved prayer works?
Its a whole new field of potentially valuable scientific research and discovery.

>>15549053
What do you do for placebo prayers? How would you blind it? "Dear Lord, if the sign in the other room says CONTROL on it please ignore the following. Otherwise, please heal me in measure with my faith in your Son, Jesus Christ. Amen."???

>>15549065
Thanks, I'm trying this.

>>15603540
What? Sorry, I can't read :-(

>>15604520
They're scared of the possibility that their materialistic worldview might not be all they think it is.

>>15604520
>Its a whole new field of potentially valuable scientific research and discovery.
that would really bring the whole "scientists are priests" thing full circle

>>15549053
praise yeshua

>>15561992
>make it illegal to not worship the jewish god
>centuries later take credit for the science done in spite of the church
by galileo shiggy

>>15584093
spam bot detected

>>15607281
>all human history and all scientific discovery began only after the establishment of the Catholic church and Catholicism is the only religion that has ever existed

>>15607289
you only got triggered by that because you fuck dogs

>Dear almighty jew god Yahweh, please cure me of this disease that you invented and gave me. Amen.

>>15607281
Galileo's work was fully supported by the pope, the pope read and praised Sidereal Messenger, it was the jesuits who wanted to shut down Galileo. the pope's whole extended family was eventually forced to flee italy because of the jesuits

>>15608761
Nobody knows the real story of Galileo, they only know the elementary school "christianity bad! science good!" atheist fairy tale version

>>15589115
Ernest Jones, in 1913, was the first to construe extreme narcissism, which he called the "God-complex", as a character flaw. He described people with God-complex as being aloof, self-important, overconfident, auto-erotic, inaccessible, self-admiring, and exhibitionistic, with fantasies of omnipotence and omniscience. He observed that these people had a high need for uniqueness.

>>15549053
They're militant atheists and atheists are all liars. Its only Christians who believe that being truthful is a minimum standard of social conduct, everyone else freely tells lies without a second thought

why isn't this major headline news all over the place? this is inarguable evidence for the existence of supernatural phenomena

Does prayer move at the speed of light, the speed of sound, instantaneously or at some other velocity?

>>15608202
That has nothing to do with whats in OP, which you clearly didn't read before you reacted emotionally to the thread. Don't be emotionally triggered so easily and maybe you'll eventually be able to learn something

>>15549053
>chi-square and stepwise logistic analysis
Well there’s your problem. You basically did the scientific equivalent of shooting at the broad side of a barn and hoping a shot lands.
For this kind of analysis, with the participants chosen, the only really relevant analysis comes from a simple t-test. Extensive statistical crunching beyond what is necessary very often shows results which aren’t really there.
I hope you take this post seriously and begin to explore the wide world of statistical analysis, my friend!

>>15616954
It seems reasonable that god can move faster than light

>>15549065
>he doesn't know

>>15615110
From what I know of psi research I believe most psi is considered instantaneous.

>>15561388
fuck sake man take your meds this isnt good for you

>>15620191
Could prayer cross the event horizon of a black hole?

>>15549053
Because mainstream scientists are all atheists and atheist are all liars

>>15623527
thats why its so ridiculous the MSM is considered the truth by default and the burden is on everyone else to prove them wrong.
why not just presume they're lying? they've been caught in a billion lies already, why wouldn't everyone naturally expect that trend to continue

>>15625487
Their willingness to spread propaganda is what keeps them in business

>>15625487
>why wouldn't everyone naturally expect that trend to continue
lack of critical thinking ability, the majority of people are below 110 iq

>>15549053
Because atheism is a religion, not a rational belief system

>>15549053
>why don't scientists admit prayer works?
>but they do
>ok but what about the MAINSTREAM SCIENCE???
lol, fucking christcuck with small dick syndrome just keep moving the goalpost

you know why "mainstream" science does not care?
because it's psych shit, and most people don't give a rat's ass about it.
have your nuclear physicist friends every talked to you about some paper in psychology?
no, they barely have time to follow their own subject, nobody cares loser christcuck desert worshipping nigger lover

>>15549053
why don't they say judaeo-islamo-christian?

>>15549334
you dumb fucking retard
is gravity magic? is electricity magic?
do you see things because of muh mugik or because of the electric field interacting with your eyes?
if you can come up with an explanation of a phenomenon and that explanation completely predicts and explains other observed phenomenas then (ultil disproven) it's considered a valid theory. No magic involved

>>15631836
>is gravity magic? is electricity magic?
Obviously yes. Haven't you ever noticed the spooky way they work?

>>15631848
oh shit, you might be on to something

>>15549090
Magnets aren't magic because they follow certain rules
for something to be truly magical it would have to be irrational/incomprehensible (at least to a human)

>>15631836
>is gravity magic?
modern (((science))) needs to invoke dark matter, literal phantoms, to explain gravity. so, yes, gravity is magic.
you can pretend you understand gravity all you want, but you're only lying to yourself. nobody understands how or why gravity works

>>15633594
Some people do understand how gravity works, however they are prevented from publishing or publicizing it because doing that would harm the reputation of precious St. Einstein, the jew god of the soience atheists