/sci/ - Science & Math

>>15536774
>The taste of olives cannot be communicated in any way
I can communicate it in a single word: disgusting.

>>15536782
And yet that word alone does not encompass the entirety of the subjective "disgust" that you feel when you taste an actual olive.

>>15536774
>you cannot communicate a subjective experience perfectly
yeah no shit philosophy is built on the idea that we're not all the same exact experience. Any other enlightening news, o wise one?

>>15536774
materialism is true.
the brain makes the mind.
idealism is false.
kastrupians coping.

>>15536786
Don't you see how that's a huge problem for the rational paradigm that science holds onto for dear life? This implies that you cannot encode the entire universe into equations or data. There are things that escape equations or data, namely the subjective experience. But there might be other things, for all we know. Like ghosts. Or perhaps even gods.

Babbys first philosophy of mind

>>15536788
It sounds like you're the one coping, or you would attempt to disprove OP's argument with more effort than just saying "no u".

>>15536774
>2+2 cannot be communicated in any way other than experiencing it yourself.
>communication requires information processing.
>processing information is identical to experiencing it.
>muh essay of draconic wordplay can't mimic the information explosion of eating a pickled fruit therefore it escapes information processing.

You could formulate the information by eating it's contents but not the actual product such as consuming salt and meat products and then looking at an olive and having desires.

Bootel.

>>15536774
they taste iron-y

>>15536801
>2+2 cannot be communicated in any way
??

>gender cannot be communicated in any way other than experiencing it yourself.

>>15536807
Yeah, that was stupid. It's clearly 5.

>>15536807
if you understand what 2+2 is communicating then you have an experience of it.

>>15536810
That's actually true, you can't know how a woman feels if you're a man.

>>15536792
it's the cluster B schizo. He doesnt have any arguments for anything ... ever. He is a moron and has zero knowledge about anything to even post other than buzzwrods. He cant make a coherent and rational argument, it requires actually knowing something about the topic first,

>>15536824
You made no argument whatsoever. At least OP made one.

>>15536824
Hey bodhi, your thread about the male G spot got deleted. Shouldn't you be banned now? Or are you evading?

>>15536790
The fact that you cannot communicate it doesn't mean that it does not correspond to a brain state though.

>>15536834
It doesn't really matter if it corresponds, the very point is that there's information that cannot be encoded via data or formulas.

believers never consider evidence or proof. you can explain it as best as you can, they'll just deflect everything. they don't care about what science has to say. they're programmed to spread the virus. once they hook you in they move to the next victim.
whenever you see someone mention spirit or such bullshit, just ignore them. you won't get anywhere. they'll just string you along, that's what they do, that's what these posts are intended for.

>>15536844
1. Science has nothing to say because it is not an autonomous entity. 2. Scientists say things, and they commonly disagree with one another. 3. Just because you can't prove ghosts doesn't mean they don't actually exist.

>>15536857
as I said, you're spewing bullshit. we don't need/have to disprove ghosts idiot. they don't exist. they are hallucinations of the mind. they are not real, just like your intelligence. it's just an illusion. and you believe it, like the idiot that you are. it's just coping. you're too scared to face reality, and the fact that you die and it's all over. you chose to believe in soul bullshit because you are a frightened chicken piece of worthless vomit, too scared to die.
you'd suck the cock and eat the shit of any possible entity that can give you a hint of an afterlife.
fucking maggot.

>>15536860
>they are hallucinations of the mind
So is what's happening in front of you right now.

>you're too scared to face reality
How ironic.

perfectly describes scientism, ironic, not really though, people incapable of rational thought always project because they can only see and understand what they are, not things foreign to them are, that would require patience, study and insight, something they arent capable of

>>15536860
get a load of this narcissist. you hear this boyos? he doesnt need to prove anything he knows what is and what is not always in all things and he declares what is true or not with absolutely zero proof needed. you belong in a padded room psycho fuck

>>15536860
>cant even prove he exists
Yeah, looks like you might want to lower your bars there buddy.

>>15536866
>you are more than you see "trust me bro" and there's no need for proof. we need you to just fucking believe, pay money to our cult, and shut the fuck up.
kys and fuck off /sci/

>>15536872
>philosophy of the mind is the same as religious cult
Dude your IQ must be like 50 or something. read some fucknig Wittgenstein

>>15536872
>bizarre strawman that in no way reflects reality
there ya go, put that psychosis on display for everyone to see.

>>15536873
it really is a cult. we're way simpler than you're implying. you're giving too much importance to what you think you are.
also, you will never have a soul.

>>15536875
>simple
Dude do you even understand how fucking complex biology is? Can you even begin to comprehend how unbelievably complex the human brain is? We're "simple"? Are you out of your goddamn mind?

>>15536874
Stop posting that murderer.

>>15536873
I already told you he is a psychotic narcissist, complete and total moron. His only goal coming here is to try and waste as much of your time as he possible can and keep himself the center of attention. Everything he says will just be stupid and stupider and he will literally get off to the fact he can keep your attention anyway You may as well think of him as no different than chatgpt, you cant reason with him, and you cant change his mind he is a record that only plays one song for eternity

>>15536782
Glad I'm not the only one finding olive disgusting

>>15536877
Dont you ever tell me to do you psychotic faggot

>>15536881
You're an underaged edgelord. Grow up.

>>15536790
>This implies that you cannot encode the entire universe into equations or data
so far as our understanding of the laws of physics is concerned, yes, correct. That doesn't make it unknowable, just unencodable.

>>15536876
the only link between biology and ghosts is that biology uses that to trick you into doing certain things. the ghosts don't have to be real, you just need to think they are real.
that does not mean that you really have a soul. it's a dupe, from your biology, so you do what's needed for life to spread.
that is not needed now, with science.
human biology is very complex yes, what you call (You) is not that complex. the answer to all of your questions is that yes, you really are a coward. that's all there is to it. you are a weak pathetic coward that gives in into the soul-psychosis because it's more comfortable, gives you some hope for some afterlife.

>>15536887
>the human psyche is not complex
Lol dude you are so far out of your element. I won't even bother responding, because your take on the world is too juvenile

>>15536774
It tastes like olives. There I just did.
Just because we lack a more refined vocabulary doesn't mean communication is not possible.

>>15536905
That doesn't tell shit to someone that has never tasted olives.

>>15536840
If you mean that it cannot be encoded without physically recreating the exact same brain state, then I agree. I still don't see what the problem is.

>>15536898
you like to think it's complicated, and you're going to drift towards any piece of info that confirms that.
in reality most of the things (You) are doing is coming up with bullshit reasons to explain what you are really doing, based on who you really are. the worthless piece of shit coward. but you can't face that, so you have to construct all that bullshit about how complicated and incomprehensible your "soul" is. that's just a front to hide who you really are.

>>15536910
>Olive oil contains traces of phenolics (about 0.5%), such as esters of tyrosol, hydroxytyrosol, oleocanthal and oleuropein,[58][92] which give extra virgin olive oil its bitter, pungent taste, and are also implicated in its aroma.[93] Olive oil is a source of at least 30 phenolic compounds, among which are elenolic acid, a marker for maturation of olives,[58][94] and alpha-tocopherol, one of the eight members of the Vitamin E family.[95] Oleuropein, together with other closely related compounds such as 10-hydroxyoleuropein, ligstroside and 10-hydroxyligstroside, are tyrosol esters of elenolic acid.
straight from Wikipedia
Mix those components artificially together and you got your olive right there.

>>15536774
The light you see coming from a screen is emitted from a diode when it receives an electric signal, yet you can't explain why the interaction itself produces such a result, this is just how the universe functions, reactions between things produce results, your brain is no different, anyone who thinks consciousness is some magical mumbojumbo shit is just too retarded to understand what an absolute fucking powerhouse your brain is, it can generate entire realities for you on the whim with zero effort whatsoever through complex biochemical interactions, to ask why these interactions produce these results is meaningless, that's just the way how the universe works, you are just an information processing machine just like everything else, only far more complex, beautiful and interesting than any shitty scifi mcguffin you can come up with.

>>15536915
>I still don't see what the problem is.
The problem is that the materialist paradigm is beyond broken because the postulate was that you can encode any information via physical means but you cannot encode the taste of olives, therefore it is an incomplete (and possibly deeply flawed) model of the universe.

>>15536925
Treat a person with depression, since it's so easy.

>in b4 put them on antidepressants
Some treatment. They end up worse.

>>15536935
That wall of text lacks the essential information about the taste of olives - the taste itself. Idk how some of you can't get this. Maybe you're really stupid or something, or you lack capacity for high level abstract though, I really have no idea.

>>15536970
>Treat a person with depression, since it's so easy.
Yes, it's easy, don't be depressed, realize what a fantastic reality you are living in, realize your worth in this reality, what glorious beauty it is that created you, what power has been granted to you to achieve whatever you wish, unless there's a gun to your head the only one holding you back is yourself.

>>15536976
>Yes, it's easy, don't be depressed
Ah, so you're retarded. Glad we got that out of the way, now I can ignore everything you say from this point on.

>>15536979
Yeah anon, I'm retarded, I totally wasn't suicidally depressed for an entire 10 years of my life or anything and don't know what I'm talking about, but please, since you're such an expert on the subject, do enlighten me what I could've done that I didn't already try within those 10 years?

>>15536782
>>15536880
Try castelvetranos.

>>15536986
And you treated yourself by just going "hey, let me just not be depressed?"

>>15536774
Olives are yummy
>>15536782
You have no palette

>>15536970
usually depression has a cause, even if the patient doesn't remember/accept it. depression in individuals can signal a fucked state of things. human nature and politics is what's fucked. somehow we think that just because most people are a certain way, that is truly the best state to be in. it's quite possible humanity is horrible and fucked in the brain schizo, on average. that would be an objective state of things vs the now accepted "the majority is normal and anything else is wrong/sick". the subject is not easily debatable in short format text.
>>15536915
all that spiritual bullshit is one way or another emergent from the 3D structure of said human. any human can be seen metaphorically as a tuning fork. and your particular arrangement makes for the resonant frequency, which is (You). you can have two forks with the same tone. or a gorrilion. everything is encoded into the material information.

>>15536996
>everything is encoded into the material information
Prove it beyond just culturally-enforced certainty. I don't see any proof for this statement at all.

>>15536989
I treated myself by dropping some mushrooms and realizing what an absolute fucking retard I've been and how much I've been holding myself back all those years, destroying myself for no reason just because that little voice in my head said so every single waking second of my life, how I'm not worth anything, noone loves me, etc etc, I realized my worth and value, I realized my capability to achieve whatever I wish, the only thing that held me back was myself, so I destroyed that part of me, I will never let those thoughts control me, because I know that's not me, but you don't need to do psychedelics to understand that, psychedelics only offer a different point of view to knowledge you already had, you simply need to open your eyes to the beauty which surrounds you, the pleasure of breathing air, the beauty of a morning sunrise, the taste of great food, it is life itself which is the greatest gift, the capability to experience something beyond anything you can imagine even in your wildest dreams, you are the universes greatest creation, it's time to start acting like one.

>>15536999
Okay, then please, point out to me where the soul of an atom is

>>15537005
have you checked your butthole?

>>15536986
you have a purpose. the creator put you here for a specific purpose, your problem is you werent able to figure it out. Once you do it will solve itself. You found God so that is a nice first step. Even if you dont figure it out cognitively you fill it regardless and at least in the meantime you wont be depressed as you go insane looking for the codes like Newton did (jking he likely wasnt insane, just obsessed) Depression is a symptom of knowing what your life is is not what it is supposed to be. Leave it, simple walk away, you will be guided to where you are supposed to go

>>15537005
You're the one making the claim that reality is strictly material, it's on you to prove it. I'm not sure either way.

>>15537009
So you have no basis for your argument? Cool, I'm glad you concede.

>>15537017
I refuse to concede this election was rigged by the deep state

>>15536782
grow up

>>15537000
>cured himself through psychic means
>does not appreciate the irony
Congrats on curing yourself but now you're just being funny, anon

>>15537016
There is no evidence to what reality is on the most basic level, but unlike you I don't make up fairytales in my head to cope with my retardation, I analyze reality and make deductions based on my observations.

>>15537005
point to me where the "soul" is of the song playing on the radio. Point to the soul of your wifi internet signal

>>15537023
>unlike you I don't make up fairytales in my head
Like the fairytale of believing material existence explains qualia?

>>15537028
Point out to me where the "qualia" of an atom is

>>15536975
Your 'taste' is just the biochemical reaction when this wall of chemical compounds hits your organs and nerve system system. There is nothing more to it.
You just don't understand it because you rely on your natural instincts like an animal. But I am sure that with all your 'mental capacity for high level abstract though' you will figure this out soon enough.

>>15537022
Anon there's no need to be dense, the power was inside you all along, you are the maker of your reality, you must simply let go of the negativity which dwells inside you, realize that it is pointless to waste your time and energy worrying about everything, make the most of what you have, enjoy this reality while it lasts, the next one might be even worse.

kinda funny and inronic that you chose "atom" as people a few centruies ago would have you called schizo for saying your body isnt really a "thing" it is actually millions of these invisible things called "atoms" it is made.; Obviously you arent capable of seeing the irony

>>15536992
palate

>>15537030
Prove that an atom exists without an investigative observer affirming its existence.

>>15537040
>moving the goalposts
So you have no basis for your argument? I'm glad you concede.

>>15536975
The taste is derived from the shape of your individual taste receptors, the society you grew up in that imparts you ideals and categories whether you asked for it or not, your personal preferences, and a load of other factors like air composition temperature and altitude. "Taste" is just a poorly defined metric.

>>15537020
One day
When I'm old and grey
And my tongue has gone all moldy and gay
I'll wake up one fine morning just to say
"Olives still taste disgusting"

>>15537040
>prove something exists without proving it
ah, /sci/

>>15537042
I'm not moving anything, I'm giving you a perspective shift. If you weren't retarded you would understand the implication here. There is no fucking reality without an observer making the decision that there is such a thing.

>>15537000
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1675322942626885633

>>15537045
An experience is not a metric. Write a 10 thousand page book about how wetness of water feels. Well none of that is wetness of water, because wetness is an experience.

>>15537051
>There is no fucking reality without an observer making the decision that there is such a thing
You have no argument so you just play the "God" card without any explanation to what God is or evidence for the existence of such a being, pathetic.

>>15537056
You're so fucking retarded. Your capacity for abstract though is outmatched by a rock on one of Saturn's moons.

>>15537055
so taste cannot be used to describe an item? If it's not a metric then nothing "has" a taste at all.

>>15537051
I don't "decide" to see light anon...

>>15537060
No, but you observe it. Had you not observe it, how would anyone prove that light exists?

>>15537057
What you are doing is not abstract thinking but replacing an answer which you don't have with some mystical retardation so you could handwave away having to provide any evidence for your claims, you know, since you don't have any. Do you think dreams are real experiences, too?
Oh and you still haven't answered my question, where's the "soul" or "qualia" of an atom? You do understand that there is functionally no difference between you and an atom, right? So that means atoms should have souls, do atoms go to heaven or hell? >inb4 durr atoms don't experience
Yes they do, when a photon interacts with an electron and pushes it to a higher energy state that's an interaction, so what does the electron experience here, where is its "qualia", what about when atoms are split, where is the "qualia" of the protons and neutrons and all the energy which is used to provide these interactions?

This place is a dream. Only a sleeper considers it real. Then death comes like dawn, and you wake up laughing at what you thought was your grief. - Rumi

>>15537075
You're getting terms all mixed up. Qualia is the experience of understanding there's things such as atoms. Atoms on their own may not even exist because you apriori need to observe, measure and detect them before you even make any conclusions about them. You're so philosophically unsophisticated it's a bore talking to you.

“Do not feel lonely, the entire universe is inside you.” - Rumi

>>15537075
>You do understand that there is functionally no difference between you and an atom, right?
I am more than one atom. Checkmate atheist.

>>15537064
By that logic, the potential for people to exist later who are not experiencing the world right now prove that the world isn't real

>>15537091
>Atoms on their own may not even exist because you apriori need to observe
Wrong because that would imply nothing would exist in the first place, as there would've been no observers which are composed of the very same things they observe, you are putting the egg before the chicken even though there was never a chicken before the egg, aka you are another delusional retard without an argument who just handwaves everything away with "it's qualia it's qualia!!", you are confused because you think experience and interaction are separate things, when they are infact the same thing, what you experience is interaction itself, but of course I wouldn't expect a brainlet like you to understand.
>>15537094
All consciousness is the same, just on a different level of complexity, also I'm not an atheist.

>>15537096
Maybe it's not real. Define "real" to begin with.

>>15537035
>There is nothing more to it.
Dennettdrones actually believe they're zombies.

>>15536970
>Treat a person with depression, since it's so easy.
if you can fix the cause you most likely will fix the depression. problem is, fixing the cause seems like such an impossible task, that depression results naturally.
one of the issues is that as it stands, majority defines what's normal/sane. boy it sure would suck if you'd find yourself in a world where most people are actually schizoid freaks. you're put in the weird situation where you're considered sick/unwell just because you don't share the same dose of schizoid sociopathic behavior as them.

>>15537101
"Real" would be having properties that can be interacted with, which everything around us pretty well fits the bill of.

>>15537100
You're the stupid one here anon.

What I'm telling you is very very simple, but you're so thick-headed you can't even for 3 seconds get your head out of your own ass to listen to what I'm saying. You just start screeching like a sperg immediately.

Without any observer, you cannot be sure anything exists because you NEED an observer to confirm that something exists. I realize this is paradigm-destroying for you because you want to believe in physicalist fairy-tales, but if you actually work through that statement logically, you will come to an understanding that it is correct. You can draw your own implications from there on. It's more likely that you're just gonna continue screeching though, what with your average IQ and lack of insight.

>>15537108
>Without any observer, you cannot be sure anything exists because you NEED an observer to confirm that something exists
And your mistake is thinking that the only "observer" here is you when it is literally everything in the universe which can possibly interact with anything else. Like I told you, you are functionally no different from an atom, or a cat, or an elephant, or your chair, it's all just an endless cycle of particle interactions which produce specific results which you perceive as experience, you are simply an order of magnitude higher in complexity, which you fail to understand and that's what confuses you, do 500μg of LSD and you will truly realize what your brain is capable of and why it keeps a tight set of limiters on itself, your tune will change overnight.

>>15537108
>you NEED an observer to confirm that something exists
an "observer" can be as simple as an atom or an electron. You're conflating "Observer" with "Conscious Sentient Entity," which are not the same thing.

>>15537117
A chair can't have a conversation on /sci/. You're spewing nonsense, hopelessly trying to defend a failing paradigm that you didn't even originate, you were taught that this is how it is and now your knee-jerk reaction is to defend it at all cost. You're only slightly better than a religious buffoon, but your head is still firmly up your own ass.

>do 500μg of LSD
>brain
Lol. Do DMT and you'll see that you exist independently of the brain, always have, you're just here on the earthly plane temporarily, in a human space suit. And you think you ARE the space suit. Fucking hilarious.

>>15537121
>you'll see that you exist independently of the brain
Every test to measure the soul has failed

>>15537102
>Imagine still being dumbstruck by what your body perceives.
Stupid animal. Incapable of intelligent behavior.

>>15537122
Because you can't fucking test for it. Ask a fish to test for water, you dumbass.

>>15537127
If you can't test for it, it cannot be observed, and therefore is not real :^)

>>15537121
>A chair can't have a conversation on /sci/.
Emphasis on the word _complexity_ numbnuts, not even gonna bother reading the rest of your post, you are too ignorant of the beauty of the universe

>>15537128
1. You can't test for qualia
2. You can't observe qualia
3. Yet when I punch you in the nose you feel pain

>>15537138
And that pain is simply a biochemical signal

>>15537138
I can empirically measure nerve response and chemical activity in response to getting punched, that's pain, and it's observability makes it real. Keep coping, this is funny.

>>15537140
Yeah except for the fact that you actually feel it. A biochemical signal is not pain. Pain is pain.

alright, I'll call it out. doing psychedelics does not put you in contact with a real "thing". It just sort of amplifies what is already there. also seems to vary from culture to culture. you can absolutely trip balls and understand what's happening, where it's coming from, and that indeed you really are a mystery to yourself, you have no idea of what you really are, or who. you get a glimpse of what your biology is capable of. but that state is not useful for everyday life and the ultimate purpose of life: to spread.
I don't think psychedelics for most people/everyone is a good idea. that's just midwit takes. you'd end up with a lot of people believing in various random bullshit, even harder. it would get even worse than it already is with religions.
think an army of crusaders which is actually a bunch of bloodthirsty ghost believing schizos going to rape kill and pillage in the name of a ghost which talks to them mostly through the head of the cult.
you don't want that. you want certain people on psychedelics, who are able to discern what's happening.

>>15537142
>except for the fact that you actually feel it
That interaction is what you "feel" dummy

>>15537141
And that's still not pain. Pain is when you feel in pain.

>>15537127
Fish can test for water, they just jump out of the water

>>15537144
Yeah no it's not. You're saying that map is the territory, which is the classical fallacy. It's like yawn-tier philosophy, I'm not even going to entertain it because it's too fucking stupid. If you're on that level or abstraction, I won't even talk to you. Get more sophisticated, read some metaphysical works and then we can actually discuss this. Otherwise it's like talking about cars with a tree.

>>15537143
Of course psychedelics are not for everyone, certainly not for people like OP, to facing the beauty and complexity of reality is a hard pill to swallow for many people, because they've deluded themselves into thinking that they're something else their whole life and then that view gets shatter into a million colourful little pieces, but they don't realize that's it's just a hallucination, an image procured by your brain, no different from a dream when you are sleeping.
>>15537154
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_equivalence

>>15537138
>You can't test for qualia
What about http://www.scholarpedia.org/article/Integrated_information_theory

>>15537148
Yes, and those (observable) nerve responses are pain, they are me feeling in pain. Don't see what's so complicated about this, unless you're being deliberately obtuse because you got BTFO.

>>15537154
so what you are saying is that if it's simple you can grasp it, if it's more complicated it's divine, nobody can ever grasp it?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algorithm

>>15537161
>http://www.scholarpedia.org/article/Integrated_information_theory
That just further empowers a materialistic view as it implies the interactions in your brain and between any other element in existence is the exact same thing

>>15537167
Are you trolling?

>map = territory
Stand on a big map of Egypt and tell me you're in Egypt. No different than telling me pain is the same as the biochemical process that leads to pain.

>>15537169
>Based on the postulates, it permits in principle to derive, for any particular system of elements in a state, whether it has consciousness, how much, and which particular experience it is having
Literally the first fucking paragraph you drooling retard

>>15537170
if the map has insane details, and it's represented in 3D, and you are on some random street or near some random pyramid, then yes, for all intents and purposes you are in Egypt.
there's a detail resolution point past which you can safely say you are in Egypt.
all that you understand as being real is sensory inputs. if you input the same information into your senses, you will be there, because you wouldn't be able to tell otherwise.
there's no difference between "the real thing" and another identical place built in some other place. if it offers you all of the expected senses, you are there. so a really high resolution/immersion map is the territory for most intents and purposes, maybe apart from philosophy and specialized tasks.
at some point, humans are limited, and we'll be able to completely demystify them. that is the most likely outcome of all of this, and you need to account for it, or you'll go crazy in the end.

>>15537170
Go to sleep and tell me that you actually had sex even though it was all just biochemical reactions in your head which your brain used to create a hallucination even though you're still a retarded permavirgin irl

>>15537174
yes I know what it says you shit eating monkeyfucker, I'm saying you're either trolling or retarded to imply that's "wrong" somehow, go back to high school bud, there's plenty of programs that let dropout adults attend classes

>>15537180
I'm not saying it's wrong, I'm saying it postulates the exact same thing which I already said before, that every interaction between everything is an "experience" and in some way "consciousness", you are simply separating ineraction and experience when they are the _exact__same__thing_

>>15537176
>if the map has insane details, and it's represented in 3D, and you are on some random street or near some random pyramid, then yes, for all intents and purposes you are in Egypt.
No, you're not, and you materialistfags are choosing a very weird hill to shit your pants on. Your paradigm is crumbling and it won't hold much longer and that's just the reality of it. Enlightenment 2.0 is coming.

Panpsychism is true and correct. There is no other explanation.

>>15537188
>still no evidence

>>15537191
Qualia is self-evident. You don't need evidence that 1+1=2 and you don't need evidence that qualia exists. The hard problem of consciousness arises because of the retarded paradigm that everything is composed of matter, which it clearly is not.

>>15537185
By explaining "experience" with observable phenomena I'm doing the exact opposite of separating them. If every "experience" is "conciousness," then every fundamental particle in the universe is conscious.

>>15537188
>No, you're not
oh let me guess, Egypt also has a spirit that you'd feel as missing, thus realizing it was a ruse, just a map, not the real thing...
in the future, out of boredom, we will start the mental gymnastic Olympics, we need to better explore this area, some of the tactics you are using are really fascinating.

>>15537191
>Qualia is self-evident
And it is explainable via physical and very measurable mechanisms
>which it clearly is not.
Proof?
Oh wait, you still don't have any LMAO
>>15537196
>If every "experience" is "conciousness," then every fundamental particle in the universe is conscious
Exactly! Now you're beginning to understand, there is no difference between you and the fundamental particles on the most basic level, you are just a larger collection of more complex interactions which can collect more information and thus procure a much more sophisticated and precise result.

>>15536774
still not gonna eat any FUCKING olives cunt

>>15537200
If you prefer another analogy, go into a diner and ask for the menu. Then find the item that says "spaghetti" and eat the menu at that part, with the picture and all. Is that the same as eating actual spaghetti? Is looking at a signpost the same as visiting the town it points to? Then why do you assume biochemistry is the same as experience? I know why, it's because you were indoctrinated into materialist dogma and you were also taught to be allergic to anything that smells of spirituality. So of course you'll have to rewire that brainwashing first before you even begin to understand this shit on a higher and more meaningful level.

Additionally, it's you who is doing mental Olympics because you can't fathom the position that something beyond matter could possibly exist. Funny because matter itself apparently just magically appeared out of nothing.

>>15537207
wtf is wrong with you? I refuse to read you whole comment. how the fuck does "given high enough resolution of the map" equate to a fucking MENU compared to spaghetti. bro what are you doing here?

>>15537207
>he thinks the human body is a restaurant menu
Your understanding of biology is kindergarten level bro, you should go back to school

>>15537213
Yeah see this is where your lack of IQ really shows.

>>15537215
And you're not doing yourself any favors either.

>>15537203

>>15537218
I already blasted you out of the waters with several arguments and you've yet to provide any evidence for your claims besides "uhh it's just qualia bro it's self evident!!", I refuse to interact with you further until you educate yourself and come back with some better arguments, toodaloo dumbfuck!!

>>15537218
You didn't answer how those two metaphors are equivalent. I'd like to know why you think that.

>>15536774
Next you're gonna tell me god is real, huh?

>>15537223
Nah, you just screech in a self-induced hypnosis. I don't value your opinion at all because it has no bearing on reality, it's literally just a self-defense knee-jerk reaction because you can't stand the thought of your precious, culturally indoctrinated paradigm being wrong in any way imaginable. You've decided at 6 years old that you're only atoms, and by god you'll defend it until the end of time. You've never evolved since then.

>>15537225
They're just ways of explaining that map is not the territory. How are you not getting that?

The fucking blueprint of how your nervous system can invoke fear response, or pain response, or anxiety response, or euphoria response is NOT the fear response, or pain response, or anxiety response, or euphoria response. It's that simple.

>>15537234
>I don't value your opinion at all because it has no bearing on reality
>literally describing physically measurable interactions in reality
>no bearing on reality
Damn you should really lay off that jenkem, you're killing your last braincells

>>15537238
Of course the last decaying egoic response is always to just offer 0 original insight but just go straight to childish insults. Yawn.

>>15537203
>>15537222
There is something wrong with you if you don't like olives or olive oil

>>15537234
>The fucking blueprint of how your nervous system can invoke fear response, or pain response, or anxiety response, or euphoria response is NOT the fear response, or pain response, or anxiety response, or euphoria response. It's that simple.
then why do I feel them? If those responses go off, I always feel them. What's separating them?

>>15537234
>They're just ways of explaining that map is not the territory.
but with high enough detail it becomes the territory itself. sure, the paper map is a 2D low res low detail copy of the place. add enough detail and at some point it becomes Egypt.
problem is, you didn't expect this pushback. you usually get away with it, with midwits like you. but now you're stuck, you can't understand what's happening, and you are forced to just repeat yourself even if you sound absolutely retarded, because there's no better play here for you.

>>15537234
>They're just ways of explaining that map is not the territory
Of course not, but eating a menu is not eating spaghetti, eating spaghetti is eating spaghetti you fucking retard, those interactions are completely different

>>15537250
The fact that they are caused by biochemistry does not mean they are biochemistry, otherwise when you'd see a blueprint of fear response you'd also feel the fear, but you don't. When you're feeling fear, it's a feeling, it's a lived experience.

>>15537243
>Of course the last decaying egoic response is always to just offer 0 original insight but just go straight to childish insults. Yawn.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypocrisy

>>15537251
This is just reductionism masked as some kind of high-level concept. Experience is irreducible, so this doesn't work.

>>15537255
>The fact that they are caused by biochemistry does not mean they are biochemistry
>A=/=A because uuuuuhhhh.....qualia!!!

>>15537260
>reductionism
of fucking what you chimp? what am I reducing? what, the ghost you're seeing and think is real? the think that YOU didn't yet prove is real? how the fuck am I a reductionist for not taking your fantasies into account?

>>15537255
It's a lived experienced, caused by biochemical reactions. I can't have them go off and not feel it. So again, what separates them?
>otherwise when you'd see a blueprint of fear response you'd also feel the fear
People get hungry looking at pictures of food.

>>15537265
The map of Egypt never becomes Egypt. You're doing reverse-reductionism, trying to appear smart. But you're actually just stupid.

>>15537266
Next time you feel thirsty, look at some molecular diagrams of water.

>>15537268
>The map of Egypt never becomes Egypt.
you keep saying that, and only that. why is it not Egypt? define some constraints. what do you need the map for? what are you trying to find out/see/hear/sense in Egypt? give me a purpose for why you'd need the map.

>>15537255
>otherwise when you'd see a blueprint of fear response you'd also feel the fear, but you don't
>blueprint of fear
Please give me a "blueprint of fear" you troglodyte
>>15537268
>The map of Egypt never becomes Egypt.
Because the difference between looking at a map of egypt and being in egypt is quite substantial you absolute moron, what you are implying is that being in egypt is not being in egypt because the image you perceive of you being in egypt is caused by some higher being rather than your body receiving information about its surroundings aka you are a delusional retard who doesn't understand basic biology and you are making moronic false equivalences

>>15537270
You've put the cart in front of the horse, I said the picture can induce the feeling, not fix the feeling by making you drink water. Reading comprehension, ESL.

>>15536774
salty

>>15537274
More idiocy trying to appear smart. Yawn. I would respond to you but why bother with a 80 IQ, you'll never understand.

>>15537276
My comprehension is just fine, yours is the one that needs tuning, since you're trying to convince me that biochemistry of fear is the feeling of fear. Next time you feel fear, wish it away by looking at biology textbooks. See how that works. You're reducing yourself into chemistry but you never notice the subtle quality of experience. You're not smart at all. I would suggest you go and read some existential philosophy and metaphysical texts, because your level of thinking in this domain is extremely juvenile.

>>15537292
>I would respond to you but
you've said nothing of substance buddy. all you did was accuse us of -isms and you didn't present a single argument.

>>15536774
Pistachios as well

>>15537317
>you've said nothing of substance buddy
Funny you accuse me of this since you spend this entire thread sperging out, saying nothing of substance. I presented my arguments, you presented a bunch of autistic screeching, and now you want me to take you seriously while you gaslight me.

>>15537320
Based pistachio enjoyer

>>15536774
this but LSD

>>15537321
>I presented my arguments
Not only are your arguments hilariously fallacious you've yet to provide any evidence to substantiate your claims, too bad buddy, you lose again

>>15536774
>The taste of olives cannot be communicated in any way other than experiencing it yourself.
You can. The taste of olives is olive-like. What is olive-like? Well, what is sweet or sour or bitter?

Words are just a mapping of labels to experiences. Salt tastes salty. Olives taste like olives. Language only goes this far.

>>15537344
You don't have to provide evidence for self-evident natural occurrences. Qualia is self-evident, it doesn't need evidence because it's axiomatic. In any case, I'd rather talk to a horse than you. I'd get more intellectual stimulation from one.

>>15537351
>Language only goes this far.
It doesn't go very far, then, does it. You cannot describe the taste of pineapple because experience transcends description. It is "lived" and direct, as opposed to drawn out using symbols.

>>15537355
>You don't have to provide evidence
Stopped reading there, you're mentally retarded, might as well say that Grinch exists because you imagined him fucking your ass

>>15537364
Prove that you exist, you juvenile intellectual midget lacking any sort of philosophical sophistication.

>>15537367
>moving the goalposts again
Still waiting for your evidence

>>15537358
Experience cannot be transmitted by language. It can only be referenced.

You can try to construct an experience in your imagination using language descriptions but it will never be the real thing.

>>15537379
No, I'm not moving any goalposts you amoeba with the IQ of a wet sponge. I'm giving you a direct example of things that are axiomatic and don't need any evidence. Go troll someone else, you 13 year old retard.

>>15537381
Matter interaction is also axiomatic, so please, provide me some of this qualia which is separate from matter interactions, can't wait for your dissertation and evidence lmao

>>15536774
it might be possible to figure out what nerve signal goes to the brain when tasting olives

>>15537389
It's not axiomatic because it's an abstraction, you fucking idiot. Matter interactions are constructed, but your innate experience is not, it's direct and here before any human knowledge was even a thing.

>>15537394
>Matter interactions are constructed, but your innate experience is not
Prove it
Oh wait, you still have no evidence LMAO

>>15537292
>My comprehension is just fine, yours is the one that needs tuning
Not when you're confusing cause and effect schizo
>Next time you feel fear, wish it away by looking at biology textbooks. See how that works
I do suffer from paranoia, and an understanding of the mechanics do help me calm down because it's much easier to not be scared of something if you know how and why. Your argument is flaccid.

>>15536774
Absolute midwit OP.

>>15537292
You still haven't answered how they're separate yet either, that would do you a great deal of good proving your point. I'm now asking you to answer one simple question. Surely you can do that, right? Surely you're engaging in good faith and not trolling right? SO, what separates the two?

>>15537452
>I do suffer from paranoia, and an understanding of the mechanics do help me calm down
They don't and will never allow you to switch the feeling off, even if you read all the biology books in the world and familiarized yourself with the most detailed intricacies of your nervous system, when you feel fear, you feel fucking fear. It's only your lack of imagination that insists that this somehow isn't an important attribute of reality, and it should be replaced with pure mechanical understanding.

>>15537455
How is the map of Egypt separate from Egypt?

Same answer as how is your nervous system separate from your actual perception and experience of reality. If you read about falling off a bicycle, that will never ever be as direct as falling off a bicycle.

Try developing abstract though. It will help you in your scientific endeavors.

>>15537460
How are the biochemical pathways responsible for making me feel pain different from pain? If they are not present, I don't feel pain. If they are, I do. What makes these two things separate? You've yet to provide an answer.

>>15537471
Because the former is descriptive, and the latter is qualitative, i.e. if I explained to you in a 1500 page book everything about how a headache feels like and detailed down to the last neuron and neurochemical pathway how this all occurs in your body, this would still lack the essential information of what it fucking feels like to have a headache.

I swear to god it's like I'm talking to automatons. Maybe you're actual NPCs and that's why you find this so baffling. At this point I'm starting to seriously consider the possibility.

>>15537458
>when you feel fear, you feel fucking fear.
And that fear is only a biochemical response, there are people born with the lack of fear or even pain because their body does not produce the appropriate chemical reaction, how do you explain that with your qualia?

>>15537498
I'm not saying they are separate nor that one causes the other. I'm saying that the description of one does not encompass the experience of it. The qualia of fear is not encoded in any amount of information about your biochemical system.

>>15537506
>The qualia of fear is not encoded in any amount of information about your biochemical system.
It literally is, though, you should learn more about the neural network of the brain and how it functions, hell you can even completely inhibit this feeling with drugs even if your body produces the chemical response because you're inhibiting the reactions in your brain, you are simply taking a fundamental law of reality and trying to shape it into mysticism because you are too retarded to take a logical approach into determining the cause of something

>>15537511
No it's fucking not and you honestly lack the intellectual integrity and knowledge to be making that claim.

Go and read every article you can find about the hard problem of consciousness, and when you actually understand the implications, come back. Until that moment I have zero interest in discussing anything with you or anyone else that lacks basic fucking knowledge about what the problem actually is about.

>>15537511
>i smack my TV set with a hammer
>now TV set is showing only green color
>that must mean the image originated in the TV

>>15536774
>Brainstates
>Chemical description
Either are sufficient to communicate this, and indeed are regularly used to do so.

I'm literally a dualist and the qualia argument is unconvincing.

>>15536774
false, all senses can be quantized and therefore translated across conceptual boundaries

describe the chemical chemistry of the olive to an informed being and it will know how to imagine those sensations based off its stored relative knowledge

it really all is chemistry and anyone thats smelled the various alcohols and ketones used commonly can literally identify the position of some carbon and oxygen atoms, this same logic can be fully extended to all sensory perceptions

you could even explain color to a blind person and it'd be trivial. anything quantitative is easily translated no matter what and there are no exceptions

>>15537514
There is no hard problem of consciousness, it was made up by brainlet schizophrenics like you who lack the intelligence to understand the capability of their own form

>>15537533
Yeah all those hundreds of philosophers and scientists who collectively agreed there is a hard problem must be wrong, and you've outwitted them all. Thank goodness we have your intellectual greatness to fall back on.

>>15537539
>hundreds of philosophers and scientists have never been wrong before
you suck at scientific theory

>>15536774
>text can't activate my taste buds and make my brain release certain chemicals
you don't say...

>>15537478
Just because you think the "feeling" is esoteric doesn't mean it isn't a chemical pathway for nothing more than to make your body do something. Like combusting methane in air to make CO2 and water. Your "Experience" of that is chemical reactions, regardless of how uncomfortable or abstract of an idea that is for you to grasp.

Qualia are not real. We are all biological robots. Consciousness is an illusion. It was proven by Dennett.

>>15536814
so that's why the liars paradox appeared in set theory, math is useful gossip

>>15537551
But it's still not it. A description of an orgasm is not the orgasm, and neither is the description of the neurological activity that produces orgasm. You're mistaking the map for the territory and the menu for the dinner.

>>15537555
>Consciousness is an illusion.
Illusion presupposes consciousness.

>>15537565
You just don't understand the pathways enough to understand the description, that makes it a flaw of your comprehension, not the description. You'll find the pathways a perfectly precise description if you read more :)

>>15537565
>A description of an orgasm is not the orgasm
And every qualitative description you give of an orgasm still boils down to chemical reactions which produce those feelings and emotions

>>15537572
Your mistake is you believe, religiously might I add, in reductionism. But you cannot reduce experience because it is holistic.

>>15537573
And yet it's not it. Read the most detailed account of an orgasm or neurochemistry leading to it. It's not an orgasm.

>>15537577
Nice circular logic, still isn't evidence for your delusional fantasy
>>15537583
>A=/=A
Proof?

>>15537586
Next time you're hungry, read some description of food.

>>15537591
Why, that only procures an image of food in my head, instead I'll consume a nice mix of molecules which my body decomposes and digests via a chemical mechanism after which it uses appropriate molecules extracted from the sustenance to provide energy for my cells, or what, you think that mitochondria in your cells survives off of qualia?

>>15537577
You've got a claim that relies on itself as proof, keep coping that everyone in this thread has you BTFO, please actually define how your experience of pain isn't the biochemical pathways, if every way that you can explain it in "feeling" is explainable by a chemical reaction? Again, being too stupid to understand them isn't an excuse.

>>15537591
Effect leads to cause, you tried that before, you seem REALLY confused

>>15537617
The main problem is your goal is to win an "argument", and my goal is to understand reality. You can confuse yourself with semantics and nominalism all you want, but I see through your bullshit. Naming things is not the same as experiencing them, but go right ahead and continue to wallow in ignorance, see if I care.

>>15537625
Yeah I'm the confused one, because I see that the map is not the same as the territory and the menu is not the same as dinner. Let me know when you chew a menu if that satisfies your hunger.

>>15537626
>You can confuse yourself with semantics and nominalism all you want, but I see through your bullshit
I'm far from confused, in fact I seem to understand these things better than you do! mad because bad

>>15537646
No, you're deluded. You've been sold a description of the world that is incongruent with what the world actually is, and you'll continue to delude yourself because you're simply not intelligent enough to pull your head out of your ass and smell the roses.

>>15537652
I smell the roses all the time, AND I can tell you every single chemical (we know of) responsible for those smells, and why those chemicals generate "smells" when they enter the body. You seem mad that someone could possibly be happy this way.

>>15537656
Exactly, you're deluding yourself into thinking that description is the same as reality.

>>15537677
Keep projecting, keep coping :) Wanna tell me about the menu and spaghetti again, that one was funny, I wanna hear it again!

>>15537688
I mean if you're going to just mock my argument, why even have it? Does it give you some benefit? Disagree with me and move on.

>>15537698
I was engaging seriously for a while, I stopped when it became clear you were either too retarded to take seriously or trolling.

>>15536806
sounds like you've eaten black olives, which are the green unripe ones like in the image, but covered in ferrous gluconate
they do indeed taste quite strongly of iron due to that ferrous gluconate

>>15538128
You can't describe that sensation in words! That's impossible!

>>15538132
well, I wasn't addressing you, OP
but to address what you're saying, you don't really know that, fact is that we still don't if that's the case or not
if e.g. epiphenomenalism is true, you could conceivably write an explanation of how to achieve a brain state where that taste is experienced, thus refuting your claim
we don't know whether or not this is possible, so your claim to the contrary is not well-founded, and thus erroneous

>>15536788
If materialism were true, then why do materialists always abandon their worldview after an NDE? As pic related proves, even dogmatic atheists change their minds after a really deep NDE. Therefore, so would we all.

And NDEs are more real than this world, in every way. For example, they are more consistent experiences, illustrated well by this quote:

>"For me, life is sort of like the haunted house. ... You're eternal, you have billions of lives, so knowing that you're going to come in just for one to have an experience, though it may be judged as tough, or difficult, or scary, you actually chose it because you knew it was just going to be an experience, you know it's no big deal. You understand on the other side that this part, life, is actually the dream, and you just wake up after. It's no different than one dream you had last night, out of a lifetime of dreams. This life that you're having right now is just one, it's just a blip."

So just like life is more consistent than our dreams (dreams last a few moments, life has been the same for decades), so too is the NDE reality more consistent than life (life has been the same for decades, the NDE reality has been the same for forever, for way more than trillions of years). Here this point is elaborated more on:

https://youtu.be/U00ibBGZp7o

And it is instantly evident to NDErs that heaven is real too, even atheists:

>"It's real to us when we're in it, but once I was there in heaven I realized that's more real, that felt more real, and it made much more sense to me than anything here. This is kind of nonsensical at times. In heaven, it's so clear, so real, so rational, so logical, but yet emotional and loving at the same time. Immediately I knew that was real and this was not. Immediately."

From https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/mysteries-consciousness/202204/does-afterlife-obviously-exist

So heaven is undeniably real and materialism is demonstrably false.

>>15538191
>>/sci/image/j5ZtICe07WuEX2a39Ajt0Q

>>15538191
>If materialism were true, then why do materialists always abandon their worldview after an NDE?
not really true, plenty of people who nearly died said they didn't experience anything, just like deep sleep
and there are tons of people who do have actual experiences who simply chalk it up to hallucination, just like a dream
>even dogmatic atheists change their minds after a really deep NDE
many don't
so the claim that "materialists always abandon their worldview after an NDE" is simply false
I'm not taking a position on whether materialism is true or not, but sounds like you're trying to convince yourself in the other direction despite not knowing whether or not it's true, just like everyone else

>>15537555

>Dennett

lel, lmao even.

>>15536774
In line with your olive analogy, I propose God can be experienced. As one who has never tasted olives cannot conceive of its flavour, so too is it impossible to convey the divine experience.

>>15538253
>I propose God can be experienced
you can experience deez nutz

>>15538191
DMT has the same "realer than real" aspect.

>a salty, quick wave that shatters the tongue and then grindings into a mealy paste

>>15539198
Gorgonzola?

>>15536782
>>15536880
>>15537046
plebs get filtered lmao

>>15536774
>Therefore, experience contains hidden information that you cannot encode in any way short of having it.
Just because we don't currently have language capable of precisely expressing what something tastes like doesn't mean such language is impossible.

>>15539222
You can only transmit experience by sharing it, not by encoding it into any medium, i.e. you cannot talk about the taste of lemon juice to anyone except those who have tasted lemon juice. You cannot talk to experience of redness to anyone except those that have experienced it

I am not conscious, and neither are you.

I am not conscious, and neither are you.

I am not conscious, and neither are you.

I am not conscious, and neither are you.

>>15539218
salty pastanigger detected. Italians are not white btw

>>15539426
Italians are quite literally the whitest race.

>>15540244
Delusional kek

>>15540247

>>15540244
Measured in WHAT the index of whiteness??

Get off my board Eugenix tard.

>>15540278
nord cope

>>15540278
>Eugenix
Is that your name, Gaul?

>>15536817
>Thread about olives and subjective experience
>HOW ABOUT THOSE TRANNIES THOUGH GUYS

>>15539426
>>15540244
>>15540247
>>15540249
>>15540278
>>15540281
>>15540288
No race is actually white, they are all various shades of beige. Bunch of children

>>15540317
you have to go back

>>15540296
There is exactly nothing about that post that implies trannies, anon. Seems like the meme you posted describes you better than the quoted post,

>>15540318
I'll go back if you go front

>>15540319
>experiencing one gender as another has nothing to do with trannies
You could at least PRETEND to engage in good faith when you're trolling.

>>15540323
There is absolutely no mention of trannies in the post you originally quoted, you delusional weirdo with trannies living rent-free in your head 24/7

>>15537629
>Yeah I'm the confused one, because I see that the map is not the same as the territory and the menu is not the same as dinner.
you are hell bent on actively refusing to understand the point that a representation of something can get so good that it ultimately becomes the very thing it mimics.
do you understand how a mcdonalds ad hamburger in a photo is a decent map of a hamburger? do you understand that the one they photographed is fake, made to look extremely good? still not real, but damn it looks good. then you can build a real hamburger from the ground up, and eat it. it's a 1:1 "map" of a hamburger. the map becomes the territory with enough detail.
we all know there's no dumber way that would make you understand. you do get the point, but just refuse to accept it, because it fucks up your argument. you're holding for dear life, and you have no other move than just sticking with the initial assertion. it works in other debates, has to work in this one wtf right?

>>15540336
You managed to get this mad without actually realizing you proved his point.

>>15540341
you will never have a soul

>>15538721
so do lucid dreams

>>15540341
you will be able to scan and 3D print a hamburger, with a future 3D printer. you can print a map of something, that is so good it is the territory for all intents and purposes.
if you map a map, you can just print it again. the map's map is the map itself.
it's called losing, what you are feeling right now. the "map is not the territory" completely failed you. you were not expecting this.
you are not cut out for this. I seriously recommend giving it a good thinking, I mean in going to science places and talking about ghosts and shit. you might learn things that feel from bad to really really bad.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_hazard

>>15536774
That only means the communication system is lacking in common referent, which isn't surprising. Even in everyday English, there's not universal agreement on what words mean.

BTW, I also believe the mind is more than physical, but get better arguments than "qualia hard to encode".

>>15540374
Lucid dream on DMT rebar

>>15536774
Olives taste very bitter and are astringent

>>15540690
"astringent" and "bitter" aren't states of being, retard

>>15540694
I don't know what you are talking about
That is what unprocessed olives are like, deal with it

>>15540703
>That is what unprocessed olives are like, deal with it
Explain it in a way I'll know without experiencing it. You can't. God is real.

>>15540249
Italians are actually race shifters, they can adapt to different needs as a survival mechanism.
This is a scientific fact.

>>15536782
You have to be over 18 to post here, zoomershit

>>15543410
I've known older people that don't like olives

For me I love olives but hate pic related, I could never understand how people like the taste of these. They are bitter and disgusting

>>15536774
Olives taste bitter and salty.
Not quite 900 pages, but it gets the job done.

>>15543484
You know how many things taste bitter and salty?

>>15543491
I don't even know how many olives there are in the world at any given time, why would I also know all the other things too?

>>15543457
No one eat them by themselves, you just add them in small quantities in the right dish.
And frankly even olives usually aren't that great alone, unless some specific varieties and very fresh.
Taste bad / taste good is a primitive concept.
If you develop cooking what counts is what you can do with it.

>>15543530
>No one eat them by themselves, you just add them in small quantities in the right dish.
They make any dish worse, they add a weirdly bitter taste that tastes disgusting

>>15543534
Don't forget about the texture, a big part of taste is texture, and their texture is disgusting too.

>>15536782
Depends on how you prepare it. I love olive soup

>>15536774
i hate this shit even smelling it makes me throw up

>>15543681
>olive soup
I've never heard of olives being made into a soup before