/sci/ - Science & Math

>>15471557
Oh shit! Hunter*
Off to a bad start

>>15471557
>2012
Last year you could write articles like these

>>15471557
Maybe something like that rat exmeriment? Homosexuality present itself only in overpopulated and oversocialized places?

>>15471585
Makes sense as an in-built way to both reduce population growth and have more supporting adults around per child. A tribe of 20 people needs to be at max reproductive capacity to ensure survival and prosperity, a city of 2 million needs to stop reproducing and deal with the generation it already has

>>15471594
what about a tribe of 20 people living off the interest they make printing money for a city of 2 million? if the city stops growing it's like a literal genocide for the tribe. have a heart

>>15471594
I wouldn't think it's in-built as the particular factors for it to be selected would've been an almost impossibility, but from a psychological pov it would make sense.

>>15471557
Picrel

>>15471607
The trait appears in birds and thus hypothetically prior to the last common ancestor between synapsids and diapsids. Doesn't seem unlikely that some ancient salamander started overpopulating the ponds it lived by and populations that slowed reproduction once carrying capacity was nearing were more likely to survive than populations that just grew exponentially until they all died off, and we've kept that trait until today

>>15471560
you have no idea how bad it went: "hinter" is "homo" in Finnish xD

>>15471557
Brandolini's law. AKA bullshit asymmetry principle. The amount of energy needed to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger than that needed to produce it.
>I thought FBOE and masturbation were universal phenomena
Some context is needed. Bonnie & Barry's field location was Bagandou village, and there are many relevant details omitted. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/282443835
>By definition, ‘adolescents’ are unmarried and ‘adults’ are married.
Their culture requires you marry to become an adult.
>One girl reported gossip victimization caused by her refusal of a marriage proposal; another cited an accusation that she was trying to steal her friend’s husband
Their culture does find it extremely taboo to not marry, to the extent claiming someone rejected a proposal among adolescents can be used as a gossip tool for bullying.

As far as B&B is concerned,
>Ngandu were familiar with the concept, but no word existed for it and they said they did not know of any such relationships in or around the village. Men who had traveled to the capital, Bangui, said it existed in the city and was called “PD”
Oh, I'm sure they are familiar. Know what also B&B did not mention? Missionaries have been active in Bagandou since the 1970s.
https://www.nytimes.com/1972/07/08/archives/pygmies-many-owned-by-planters-are-central-africas-secondclass.html
>Bagandou is “a good Christian village,” but nothing has been done for the surrounding pygmies, according to a French priest, the Rev. Philippe Rey naert, who worked for three years in the area south of M'Baiki in the southwestern corner of the republic.

So your idea homosexuality doesn't exist stems from a surveyed sample of 50 people in a single village, all of which were married or serially been married over time, and in a village having been bible thumped since the 1970s where good Christians would never have such a thing and it only exists "elsewhere". Gee, I wonder why they found none?

>>15473851
>Their culture requires you marry to become an adult.
>Their culture does find it extremely taboo to not marry, to the extent claiming someone rejected a proposal among adolescents can be used as a gossip tool for bullying.
Sounds like a good society in which to raise children.

>>15474003
>Sounds like a good society in which to raise children.
One estimate says half of them die before age 15. Per 1991 demographic estimate 20% of infants die and 35% of children. As the 1972 article notes there's also slavery and other problems.

>>15474045
Umm, but those don't give me the ick??

>>15473851
OP here. Bagandou village wasn't their field location, (the Ngandou live there), but the Aka population who inhabit the rainforest near it. The study even makes a clear distinction between rates of agression in village peoples and the hunter gatherers, pointing out that the latter are predicted to have a lower one.

I do understand how the Aka wouldn't make the ideal subject of study with such interaction with the christian village people but in current times such perfect subject of study would be an impossibility. Do you have any counter-examples on the subject of primitive homosexuality?

>>15474070
>Bagandou village wasn't their field location
It is literally listed as their field location. https://anthro.vancouver.wsu.edu/people/hewlett/bagandou-central-african-republic/
Field location does not mean "exclusively only in this village".
>but the Aka population who inhabit the rainforest near it
Yes, and it is also the field location the Hewlett's set up and invited other researchers to study through. It's the literature reference point for related papers as well given they're the ones who invited subsequent researchers to study there and the aka people.
>The study even makes a clear distinction between rates of agression in village peoples and the hunter gatherers, pointing out that the latter are predicted to have a lower one.
I am not sure why you think that is relevant either? I quoted the aforementioned as societal context. There are many others of the aka people in different regions and it doesn't depict them holding hands singing kumbaya. They have many societal taboos and they're all very strong, and the only annoying thing is I cannot find any online resource for any of you referencing the merciless way such taboos can be dealt with. Proximity to Bagandou doesn't change the points made. Fact of the matter is very hostile environs make very strong cultural taboos and very little honesty when people ask if you're transgressing them.
>I do understand how the Aka wouldn't make the ideal subject of study with such interaction with the christian village people
It isn't just that. They clearly have a strong taboo and demands on early marriage regardless. One need not be Christian to have that as a taboo.
>but in current times such perfect subject of study would be an impossibility.
...Why? There are publications on the topic as of this year and ongoing academic debate.
>Do you have any counter-examples on the subject of primitive homosexuality?
I'll have to write second post on that but yes plenty. Give me a while

>>15474089
My only gripe was ignoring the fact that the Aka peoples aren't the same as the Ngandu, and that christianization of the first doesn't imply a supposed homosexuality would be eliminated for the second. Other than that, yes, their marriage customs would become the main suspects for the absence of homosexuality, but I'd need examples of societies in which such marriage laws don't exist and homosexuality is present.

>>15474070
Cont. >>15474089
>Do you have any counter-examples on the subject of primitive homosexuality?
Most generalizable would be to biology, rather than primitive social surveys due to numerous problems like the kinds outlined already. Reference overview so I don't have to copy paste 30 papers https://www.researchgate.net/publication/316167479

As general premise it is not uncommon in nature. In most animals you have dominance and related behaviors, and these can include sexual, as well as rut gone awry. It is reasonable to suppose there are such cases as it is to suppose there would be other species less ambiguous. For example, you have pairbonding behaviors that occur with other males depending on species, often pairbonding birds. Males in such cases will even cooperate raising children. Point is biologically "in general" you get the whole range of same-sex behavior from probably incidental, to dominance, to bisexual promiscuity, to pairbonding.

Getting more specific to human ancestry, compare new and old-world monkeys. For new world monkeys, last common ancestor 45-55 mya, homosexual acts are sporadic. By comparison with old world monkeys, nearer shared ancestry to humans show less sporadic and more regular homosexual behaviors. Either the self evident bisexuality in bonobos, or observed in gorillas and chimpanzees.

I am not sure how one could justify that as mere coincidence without dismissing biology altogether. We'll ignore the usual sort who discount evidence they don't like as fraud or conspiracy. If our nearest primate relatives are anything to go by, primates are very bisexual and on a fairly regular basis. That we can most clearly feel and pursue what we really want long term, as well as hide it, fits with sexual orientation following that nearer primate ancestry pattern. To suggest humans are not inclined at all to be homosexual "naturally" would be as absurd as suggesting we're not so inclined toward heterosexuality from the same evidence.

>>15474121
Yeah that's the problem I referred to when I said "but in current times such perfect subject of study would be an impossibility." The fact than homosexual acts happen in other species doesn't mean that it's a necessity in humans in their ""natural"" envornment. What's more, we don't see exclusive homosexual orientation in the vast mayority of animals who do engage in homosexual acts, so it's hardly analogous. You seem to have kinda moved the goalpost going back to examples in the non.human animal kingdom, which becomes a rather sterile talking-point and dismisses the premise of my post.

homosexuality and transsexuality are intersex conditions caused by adrenal hyperplasia, other symptoms include EDS, autism ect. see slatestar's recent blog for more. This is due to mutations in genes. So real question is why genes are mutating in some environments as opposed to others.

>>15474100
>My only gripe was ignoring the fact that the Aka peoples aren't the same as the Ngandu, and that christianization of the first doesn't imply a supposed homosexuality would be eliminated for the second.
I don't know why you think I'm equivocating them. My quote concerning the aka people on bullying and social taboo with marriage and adulthood was independent the part on Christianity. Their survey was on BOTH the aka and the Ngandu. Of the 56 only 35 were Aka
>but I'd need examples of societies in which such marriage laws don't exist and homosexuality is present.
You're asking for a contradiction, and that requires some explaining. The problem is that for modern hunter-gatherer societies most are living in very high mortality conditions, and a lot of them have very strong social taboos with very violent enforcement or implied enforcement. If you are willing to accept such taboos prohibit honesty, that should naturally follow. This is not surprising given all the anthropological work on religious and superstitious development and violence in unstable/risky living conditions.

Basically, it's a selection bias problem. We know more hostile and unstable environments make for more controlling societies, and if things are stable enough people sit down to do farming or something else. Hence the contradiction. Cultures have also swapped between permissive and restrictive, such as Rome and periods of long climate instability resulting in long famines.
>>15474134
>The fact than homosexual acts happen in other species doesn't mean that it's a necessity in humans in their ""natural"" envornment.
What's more natural than being free to do and choose as you desire? If you really want to know whether something is natural, let a man choose without consequence and without coercion.
1. You're declaring the increasing same-sex tendencies nearer human evolutionary cousins to be coincidence
2. You're declaring people doing what they want somehow contradicting what they'd want?

>>15474134
>You seem to have kinda moved the goalpost going back to examples in the non.human animal kingdom, which becomes a rather sterile talking-point and dismisses the premise of my post.
Please read what is written carefully. This post as it is written seems to ignore the last two paragraphs where I shift to discussing trends in primates specifically, and trends that grow more prone to same-sex behavior nearer to human-"evolutionary relative" shared common ancestry. I really can't understand why you'd have written that unless you completely ignored half my post.

>>15474158
My only interest is in the particular arise of exclusive homosexuality in humans. The argument you're making, that of modern hunter gatherers not being "honest" presupposes an inherent aspect to homosexuality, and that has not and I don't think will be proven. What's more likely is that multiple social and eviornmental factors lead to human homosexuality.

>You're declaring the increasing same-sex tendencies nearer human evolutionary cousins to be coincidence
Distinct sexual dynamics are found in distinct primate groups. Chimps, for example, are
particularly absent of such acts, and when they do engage in it they do it as a dissuasive social tactic, while bonobos do so more frequently as a bonding one. As I said, the particular kind of homosexuality that is human homosexuality (the exclusive kind) is practically absent in out primate cousins.

>You're declaring people doing what they want somehow contradicting what they'd want?
No. It's like saying doing drugs is natural because people like doing it. Particular ways of engaging with a variable arise as enviornmental facts change. Would hunter gatherers become addicted to heroin if they were given some? Probably. Does such a situation arise in primitive societies? No.

>>15474171
Giving examples in other species is not what I asked for. Not all species engage in homosexual behavior, most of those who do don't egnage in it exclusively. What I ask for is examples in primitive human societies, which you have not been able to provide for. Human homosexuality seems to arise in agropastorial societies and that thesis you haven't been able to disprove.

>>15474100
>I'd need examples of societies in which such marriage laws don't exist and homosexuality is present.
I had to do some digging since historical anthropology isn't my think. I believe, as concerns sub-saharan Africa, I've found something close to what you're asking for. https://api.semanticscholar.org/CorpusID:46335266 written by anthropology historian Stephen O. Murray. That link you can download from but your browser may throw an unsecured download warning.
"Homosexuality in “Traditional” Sub-Saharan Africa and Contemporary South Africa"

It appears to contain a truly exhausting list of literature, much of which I can't find online due to age and lack of digitization. It contains early records, anthropology, accounts, stories, cultural practices, etc. This includes many papers where anthropologists receive more candid anecdotes such as the Mbuti pygmies,
>Although the closeted anthropological popularizer Colin Turnbull (1965:122; 1986:118) wrote that in Mbuti (pygmie) hunting bands, who live in the Ituri forest at the heart of the Congro basinmale homosexuality is rare and regarded derisively, he wrote to David Greenberg (1988:87) “that when men sleep huddled together, sometimes one ejaculates, but he then ridicules himself for this ‘accident.’ 56 He added that he did not see the Mbuti as rejecting homosexuality so much as favoring procreation very strongly.”
Though as you'll note this in kind with what I already noted about the taboo in such cultures. Also like I suspected with Christian influence on the Bantu,
>Among the Bantu-speaking Pahouin slash-and-burn farmers (Bene, Bulu, Fang, Jaunde, Mokuk, Mwele, Ntum, Pangwe), who live in thee rainforest north of the Congo River (in present-day Gabon and Cameroon), homosexual intercourse was bian nkû’ma, a medicine for wealth, which could be transmitted from bottom to top in anal intercourse, according to German ethnographer Günther Tessman (1904:23) [...]
The list goes on

>>15474188
>My only interest is in the particular arise of exclusive homosexuality in humans.
Then you ought be interested in the behavioral trends of our nearest relatives given the most distantly related primates don't have such tendencies. Curiously, those nearest humans have the most of such tendencies. Why do you think that is coincidence?
>that of modern hunter gatherers not being "honest" presupposes an inherent aspect to homosexuality
The evidence of biology and free human choice is what supports that assumption. Also apparently centuries of file-drawered anthropological documents. >>15474191
>Chimps, for example, are particularly absent of such acts
You did not even glance at my reference citation. I wrote chimps, the citation mentions chimps, and cites literature describing frequent mountings occurring between chimpanzee males. Where did you get this idea that it rarely happens?
>while bonobos do so more frequently as a bonding one
And humans don't?
>No. It's like saying doing drugs is natural because people like doing it.
It literally is a natural tendency a good portion of humans have, and is common almost everywhere including hunter-gatherers. To such a degree it is hypothesized hallucinogenics and alcohol played a significant part of human evolution. With some evidence for that, too. Poor choice of example.
>Does such a situation arise in primitive societies?
Yeah, whenever someone goes too deep into the shaman stash. Happens a lot. Are you serious?
>and that thesis you haven't been able to disprove.
This is reversing the burden of proof. Rather, you haven't evidenced your thesis at all, while I have multiple lines of evidence to the contrary.

>>15473655
So I shouldn't seek shelter in the hinterland? nttawwt

>>15471557
If you take one look at prison system you will see that lack of female contact leads to homosexuality. Abnormal sexual behaviour is less frequent in these arhaic tribes because they have a healthy structure and interraction between genders. Point being that these tribes would go full homo in modern western society.

>>15474221
Yeah this. I'm not much into biology but a good historical analogue would be ancient Athens and Sparta. Athenian pederasty was frequently sexual in nature probably because women weren't allowed to take part in public matters and arranged marriages until relatively old ages for men were the custom, as opposed to ancient Sparta where women and men were allowed to both take part in public affairs, excercise together and recieve education, and according to the Lycurgian constitution, homosexual contact was seen as abominal.

>>15474232
I don't understand this thinking at all.
>A culture did this
>Therefore all modern examples are due to that
you're one step removed from just saying it came to you in a dream and thinking you're doing science.

>15474191
First example quite clearly shows how homosexuality wasn't a frequent sight and regarded as a matter of derision. Cooming in your sleep and laughing about it doesn't constitude homosexuality

>>Among the Bantu-speaking Pahouin slash-and-burn *farmers* (Bene, Bulu, Fang, Jaunde, Mokuk, Mwele, Ntum, Pangwe), who live in thee rainforest north of the Congo River (in present-day Gabon and Cameroon), homosexual intercourse was bian nkû’ma, a medicine for wealth, which could be transmitted from bottom to top in anal intercourse, according to German ethnographer Günther Tessman (1904:23) [...]

Clearly not hunter gatherers.

I'll read the whole paper looking for nomadic societies tho. Thanks.

>>15474241
Yeah, it's not science, it's anthropology.

>>15471557
Homosexuality is clearly epigenetic in nature. The harsh conditions and lifestyle of primitive humans probably prevents homosexuality from appearing.

>>15474243
>First example quite clearly shows how homosexuality wasn't a frequent sight and regarded as a matter of derision.
Evidencing what I said about these cultures having a strong taboo about it. Hence the quote.
>Clearly not hunter gatherers.
Evidencing what I said about Christian influence radically altering these people. Hence the quote.
>I'll read the whole paper looking for nomadic societies tho. Thanks.
There are plenty of examples with pastoralists. Nandi, Maragoli, Sudanese Nuer, etc.
>Even native denial of the possibility of homosexuality must be treated skeptically, as MacDermot’s experiences among the pastoralist Sudanese Nuer showed. Sexual behavior between men did not occur, he was told (MacDermot 1972:99). Then, one day, he observed “a crazy old man... accepted by everyone in the village... [who] either tended the cattle or at other times helped the women harvesting corn or carrying burdens.” [...] It had always been stressed by the tribesmen that homosexuality between men was impossible, for if discovered amongst them it could be punishable by death. Doereding now told me about a crazy man he had once known who lived near Nasir in the Sudan and who frequently dressed as a woman. This was different Doereding explained, because “the man had actually become a woman”; the prophet of Deng had been consulted and had agreed to his change of status. The prophet had decided to call on the spirits and after consultation had declared that indeed the man was a woman. Therefore, he could dress in women’s clothes and behave as a woman. From that time onward it was agreed that ‘he’ should be called ‘she’, and ‘she’ was allowed to marry a husband. All very confusing, and so totally against what the Nuer had been telling me, that I questioned Doereding carefully, but he failed to produce further explanation (MacDermot 1972:119).

How exactly are you not just making one colossal "absence of evidence is evidence of absence" fallacy?

>>15474200
Thank you for the information. I'm gay, but didn't know all this.
>>15474241
Gotta ignore the brainlets.

>>15471585
This.

When you are perfectly balanced with nature(hunter gatherer society) you dont have these things occur

>>15474370
>Thank you for the information.
Hope it's helpful. If more people engaged and thanked people for their effort, even if they end up wrong, we'd have a lot more good effort and a lot better odds of having better ideas. Same goes for shaming total absence of any effort.
>I'm gay, but didn't know all this.
I'm not, but I've got more. Stuff picked up reading ridiculous lies around here over the years. Like mouse utopia being bullshit for example https://gwern.net/mouse-utopia

>>15474402
>Overall, despite achieving a density far higher and one that would be expected to have a far larger harmful effect, Kessler1966 only somewhat resembles Calhoun’s results: while Kessler does describe deviant mice behavior driven by density (such as homosexual matings) and high infant mortality/cannibalism, on the other hand, there are no population crashes or cessation of reproduction but stable populations after initial growth, there are no behavioral sinks, any ‘beautiful ones’ or ‘drinkers’ or ‘autistic’ mice are not described as such by Kessler, the mice are healthy overall, and transplanted mice revert. Further, Kessler’s observation of considerable between-population variance & genetic changes raise questions about statistical power & interpretation of any effects.

Bro, seems to support OP's hypotheses even if outher results aren't the same

>>15474415
>Bro, seems to support OP's hypotheses even if outher results aren't the same
That's something you get in mice as a matter of aggression. You also get it in other species as noted previously >>15474121 for ambiguous cases, highly constrained captivity, etc. Also, importantly, inbreeding effects.

You really need to read the 1966 paper to know what I mean. gwern has it linked https://gwern.net/doc/biology/1966-kessler.pdf
Note the dramatic reduction of that with emigration of populations and admixture, as well as sexual related aggression prior to admixture. Unlike Calhoun, also, Kessler noted population and mating pairs to calculate inbreeding. While well below catastrophe it definitely has effects as noted.

>>15474429
So it can't be extrapolated to humans because it's seen in a social contexts in great apes?

>>15474437
>So it can't be extrapolated to humans because it's seen in a social contexts in great apes?
No, the reference concerned the fact you can't just take animal behavior in a vacuum, and mice have more in common with some other examples regarding captivity and aggression behaviors.

I can make a more direct refutation from that anyway since you want one. It does not make sense to correlate the behaviors of mice in cages to humans when the most proximate biological example of that behavior is our nearest living species relatives. Who, I remind you, are frisky as hell by comparison and in a so-called "natural environment". That is the very definnition of "a reach".

>>15471557
>masturbation does not exist
I call horseshit. If most people are getting laid enough that they never feel the need to jerk off, that's one thing. The idea of it being an unknown, confusing concept is quite another, and really makes no sense.
Masturbation is not a "proclivity that is part of a cultural model of sexuality". Masturbation is "genitals plus friction equals convenient, private pleasure and release of tension". It's generally discovered at an early age, often by accident. How could there possibly be "no general conception of it"?

>>15474509
>The idea of it being an unknown, confusing concept is quite another, and really makes no sense.
They're confused why someone wouldn't just get married and have sex, because their entire society is oriented around getting a woman the moment you're considered an adult and having reproductive sex.

>>15474509
People generally "self-stimulate" out of boredom more than real horniness.

>>15473851
also homosexuality is largely genetic (in combination with in utero environmental factors). so it may very well be possible that in a pick of just 50 people there may be no or few genes for it which is why the tribe didnt have to account for it in its cultural behaviours

>>15471557
Thought of a question I somehow didn't ask yesterday. It was bothering me all the while I was away once I did realize it. Given we see that in highly rural "farmer" types >>15474191, keep in mind B&B pointed out there's a density of something less than one person per square mile or something, what *exactly* are you even trying to argue? Usually people go for Calhoun's bullcrap as pointed out here >>15474402 but that can't work in your case because you flatly reject the comparison with a rural village of something less than 500 people at the time.
>>15474415
That goes for you too. Also, the same point about those highly rural very low population density people and early anthropology of homosexuality being very common among the Bantu, or the multiple anthropological notes regarding pastoralists, it just seems to defeat the point or sticking to Calhoun.

I don't get it. I thought you people lived by that man's work, but everything we've been talking about *even if it is not exactly a hunter-gatherer tribe* still defeats Calhoun's point even if you ignore the fraud in his work or the logic not making sense comparing mice to humans. Somebody explain, because I can't make the math work.

I consider it a disease, caused by microorganisms as yet unidentified, perhaps in association with environmental conditions which may switch a benign infection into manifest one.
>If it were caused my microorganisms then we would have identified the culprit by now.
Not necessarily. Especially if the responsible microorganism, be it a virus, bacteria, fungi or protozoa, or even more complex organism such as Nematodes, may persist benignly within the human host without causing homosexual behaviors unless certain other conditions or other biological symbiotes are present. Or perhaps cultural constraints and individual will power enables infected individuals to resist homosexual behavior despite the inclinations the infection creates. Also bear in mind that an entirely new class of macro viruses, the Giant Mimivirus, were discovered less than 25 years ago. To assume that homosexuality is not caused by a disease vector when new organisms are being discovered all the time is pure arrogance.

Several patterns of behavior found in homosexual communities point towards behavioral aberrations from the general population typical of parasitic infection which affect the neurological system, and consequently behavior. Homosexuals are associated with increased promiscuity, increased social contact when not culturally constrained, increased sexual risk taking, and militancy in demanding social normalization of their behavior. All these factors naturally increase the chances for reproductive success of a parasite. Parallel examples include the ordinary influenza classes of virus which promote increased social contact behavior in Humans before the onset of symptoms, and toxoplasmosis, which promotes lessened fear of cats in rodents. Another fascinating example of behavior altering parasites concerns the fungi Massospora cicadina, which causes male cicadas to mimic female mating behavior, leading to the infection of unwitting males who attempt to mate with them ( sound familiar?)

>>15475569
>All these factors naturally increase the chances for reproductive success of a parasite.
Yeah enjoying other people's company and trying to enjoy life for what little it gives you is a sign something is wrong with people. I mean come on have you met people?

>>15471574
So true. Anything published after that year is practically noise.

>>15473851
Is beyond obvious you are a godless demon whose words are nothing but lies and intentions nothing but evil.
In the name of Christ the Logos, BEGONE!

>>15471618
It is absolutely true that porn can rewire your brain to get aroused from new stimuli, including dicks, but a conditioned fetish is NOT the same as actually being gay.

I am a huge proponent of quitting porn, but the idea that porn makes you gay is just a stupid argument by religious fundamentalists.

>>15475710
>Logos
I knew supply-side Jesus was popular in 'Murrica, but this is taking it too far anon.

>>15471618
>Gendered brain
>Slippery slope of new thrills
>Youth is indoctrinated by decades of porn
Why are you showing us your nofap bingo card? All the prizes have been given out already.

>>15475710