/sci/ - Science & Math

>>15397540
>Brownian motion
lol

>>15397543
I'm not exactly sure if that's what they mentioned, I posed this question a while ago.

>>15397540
Specialized cells in adult animals can not be modified at scale. This means that the only useful form of genetic engineering is before conception, gestation, and maturation. Modifying adult organisms is unlikely to ever work. It's possible to do targeted modifications but that can lead to immune disorders and cancers.

Basically what you're asking is a plot of science fiction novel and not science so post this in /lit/ instead.

>>15397648
https://youtu.be/5ChRM4CEWyg

>>15397540
Genes only can add things, you can kill cells/remove part of cells with proteins (that includes regulation) but anything complex/major alternation must be done by starting from scratch -oncogeny- as far I understand.
Genes evolved along reproduction, the thing you're thinking would need a whole new class of genes that probably wouldn't work unless is kinda compatible with the basic body.

For example, remove aging, to be realistic you would need disassemble and reconstruct all the body (without destroying the mind) continuously. Or for example growing back a limb.

All that ignoring the fact that the DNA itself isn't a cluster of non-interacting genes.

>>15397540
Genetic modification is a comic book plot device, it doesn't exist in IRL in the way you think it does, its only that way in your gay pedophile children's cartoons. The fact that you can't tell the difference between cartoons and IRL pegs your IQ as below 110, which is typical for transhumanist pedos, they all get their stupid sci-fi soience fantasies from their gay cartoons and comic books.
Stop posting this garbage here, put it in the fiction section where it belongs >>>/lit/21958040

>>15397656
it's cool but doesn't address my points

>>15397773
>More specifically, performing said genetic modifications on already developed organisms
...
>I asked whether or not this was possible in the first place
Youre not a Geneticst, are you?...
>that it wasn't due to the bacteria responsible for carrying the desired gene throughout the body
I had a similar theory, and while this does have an effect I cannot say for certain the exact effect that is, as Bioelectricity has taken "the crown" for meta-Physiology at the moment via Levine's work, as my work is centered on whole organisms and Environmental Genetics/Global Biology to which I am sticking my Magnetic interference via Bioelectricity.
(Way the fuck beyond what anyone on the board is working with, period.)
>Brownian motion
I was leaning Biochemical but Levine's work has me questioning thaf as the leading culprit.
>if there's any papers or experiments out there detailing the genetic modification of already developed organisms
Did you even fucking watch the video, what the fuck...

>>15397784
You seem upset but I don't really care. Genetic modification of mature adult mammals is impossible because there is no way to target all relevant cells all at once, i.e. the only modifications that stick around are before conception and gestation.

this is all basic logic. i don't need to be a geneticist or biologist to do basic logic.

>>15397808
present a coherent argument or step out of the thread entirely.

>>15397808
>You seem upset but I don't really care
Youre retarded. You asking questions out of boredom as "some jackass with an anus" only to tell me what is and isnt, youre not doctor, youre not a scientist, so...

TOURIST, BEGONE!

>>15397540
You can't modify DNA due to the scale problem but you can modify something downstream like sequestering or injecting mRNA or proteins. Of course, this would be temporary.

>>15397808
Leave if you have no argument, it just clutters the thread.

>>15397808
Every cell uses same genetic code, it is not impossible to change it, bacterias and viruses do it with us every day

>>15398078
What was your Thesis on?

>>15397784

>Youre not a Geneticst, are you?...

Doesn't seem to be. ;)
Btw if you're messing with ion channels you're effectively messing with actual gene expression patterns deep downstream. It is all just an ongoing pattern.

>>15398078

Well good luck hitting them without stepping on some genomic landmine like a barely repressed HERV fragment ...

>>15397540
Somatic gene modifications already exists. 200 sickle cell patients for example were modified and cured from their diseases by a cas-9 system. >>15397540
Prime editing offers even greater possibilities yet time and scale makes it still decades away from common medical procedure.

>>15397808
You pump the blood stream with bacteriophage containing the modifications, the blood carries the bacteria into every cell where it I jests the new DNA into the cells

>>15399059
It injects*

>>15399059

That does sound really nice on paper. ;)

>>15399049
Interesting, how are these procedures done? Do they use a specific bacteria/virus to spread the gene?

>>15397824
What do you mean by temporary? Also, what's "the scale problem"? Does it have something to do with bigger organisms being harder to genetically modify?

>>15399059
Do you hear yourself. You inject the bloodstream with bacteria which then get to the right cells? Absolute fucking retards.

>>15399753
Same way all godless experiments are done. You sign away your life and become a guinea pig for some Dr. Frankstein lab leader like Michael Levin.

>>15397675
anime pedos can't do science, they're too gay and stupid

>>15399822
Blood moves through every cell, blood cells move through the whole body within a minute

>>15399824
Why do you consider genetic modifications "godless experiments"? Where exactly does God come into play? Also, didn't God allow humans to have free will? And isn't it from this free will that we can make our own path and solve problems to solutions? Would it be so "godless" to create a method to cure genetic diseases in people as a fruit of genetic experiments? Just asking.

>>15399040
>Doesn't seem to be
Well, theres two types of Geneticists and theur works overlap but their theories can cancle each other out on the higher ends. One is from the Chemist direction, the molecular reactions of whatever...this of course *is* valid, this did that...and that may be true but can be a "cant see the forest from the trees" perspective.

The other is from the perspective of Biology, mostly an Evolutionary perspective, which takes a whole "forest" perspective. This is my perspective.

The error can be when a Chemist perspective sticks to a "this happened therefore:" approach but that can lead to a miss understanding of causation; correlation error. "Sometimes a bad thing is only there because a good process is happening." I liken it to working out. If youre looking at a single cell you could say "Its being damaged." and yes...that is true, but if youre looking at the whole body, and over time, that damage would be a part of a strengthening process.

I feel like a lot of "Chemist Genetics" has hit a wall from decades of specifically focused research and the "era" of Biology based Genetics is here to fill in a lot of gaps that Genetics didnt even see was there.

>>15397656
Hence this video, throwing a bunch of orthodoxy of Genetics into deep question and a whole new field of Genetics and Biology is being written as we speak.

If I know which perspective he is working with I can approach him more accurately, and which way he will respond with, otherwise it ends with two people pointing in opposite directions but both being "true" by any scientific measurement.

>>15399841
Godless doesn't mean God is involved. It means chucking all ethics considerations out of the window. If you've seen how Levin mutilates embryos then it's easy to see why the experiments they're doing are "godless".

Majority of medical science, including genetics was basically structured for war efforts and a lot of the initial experiments were performed on people by Nazis. It's not like medical students are going to get any smarter or wiser so these experiments will continue until someone signs up for an experiment that leads to cancer.

There is nothing wrong with fixing genetic disorders but pretending like it can be done for mature organisms by injecting then with enough viruses is basically the plot of every horror movie (for very good reasons).

>>15399854
I never pretended it was possible to genetically modify adult organisms, but I am rather interested if there alternative, safer ways to do such a thing could be found. As an alternative to human/animal experiments, could scientists instead use plants to test the various methods of genetic modification past maturity?

>>15399876
That's a good point about plants. Why aren't biologists doing these experiments on plants and instead are mutilating potentially viable embryos? Seems to me that plants are the actual hard case and animals are the easy case because they are essentially open systems susceptible to viral payloads.

>>15399893
In any case, geneticists are low tier scientists anyway. They're all basically trying to engineer super viruses and that shit never ends well (plot of every horror movie is super virus that mutates in the wrong host).

>>15399753
>Do they use a specific bacteria/virus to spread the gene?
Nope, they do it ex-vivo.

>>15397675
>>15399825
Youre both retarded and neither of you know anything about genetics
Note how your posts are just angry ramblings about anime instead of any specific criticism of genetic modification technologies. It's because you don't know anything about science in general

Why do you faggots even post on /sci/?

>>15399893
Geneticists genetically modify plants all the fucking time, that's literally what GMO plants are. They are mass produced and millions of people eat them every day
Why are you all so stupid?

>>15399848

>this did that...and that may be true but can be a "cant see the forest from the trees" perspective

Can't see beyond the bottom of the petri dish as I like to call it, yes.

>which takes a whole "forest" perspective. This is my perspective.

Good! :)
The ability to think in evolution, I mean "actually" think in it (not just do some pop sci delusional atheist perversion of creationism here ... so a perversion of a perversion maybe) is extremely valuable, to not just see the unfolding process but perceive (or at least guess) the driving power and pattern behind it.

>but if youre looking at the whole body, and over time, that damage would be a part of a strengthening process

Very much so. Can think of several mechanisms in the overall process which at first glance are clearly damaging but are instead even required for the prolonged functionality of the organism (and the same does apply in reverse ofc). The "chemists" here as you called them, often too stuck in the mindset of a watchmaker. This narrow view has infected the field quite a bit by now. But one cannot see parts of a biological process in an isolated manner, not even those with clear and pronounced effects ... that would be applicable for a mechanic, and only because the margin of interference for an individual part of the machine is usually rather low (and even that isn't always the case as proven by a number of "freak accidents" with complex machinery).

>and the "era" of Biology based Genetics is here to fill in a lot of gaps that Genetics didnt even see was there

Could be. If so, just a little seed by now. Would need some proper watering. ;)

>>15397540
>performing said genetic modifications on already developed organisms
look at the jav's effects and add a dose of organ transplant complications i n you don't get the picture, tldr, you can, but have fun with you body rejecting itself

>>15400783
>The ability to think in evolution
4D Genetics, or 4.5D lateral transfer, 5D with environmental genetics (reflection of reflection), "Lagrangian style". After that its not even Genetics, its more like infinites squared combinatoric, as all possible Atomic combinations and all Electromagnetric bands amd frequencies they give off, plus planets and the rest of the universe. Tesla's "All is light.", same with Theologies. At 8D its *very* infinite, no words describe, scrolling words as a type of dynamic conceptual geometry and "words" are more like directions, perspective could be multiple equivelent versions of positive/negative numbers, hard to describe.

>Could be. If so, just a little seed by now.
Or Bioelectrics. Hearing questions like some people here its feels like their asking for whats so illogical its the same for asking the impossible. Its in the same direction as much of the past, new doors are there but require education in anothet field like Physics, Mathematics or Evolution in specificity. Best if all three, Biological Mathematics are wierd ratio or proportional, orthoganol, geometric, referential to deeper axioms, etc.


What do you do for work/school?

>>15397808
why couldn't a virus do it? not a troll question

>>15400823
>referential to deeper axioms
Inversions of inversions of inversions, easy to get lost in so Im force to zoom out for reference, like diving into the void searching for hidden treasure...sometimes its just a demon. Gotta kill it, consume its power, go back up and rest before diving again.

Im a demon hunter that eats demons. You are what you eat. I wouldnt recommend it.

>>15400843
Because a virus either replicates by killing the host cell or it delivers a payload like mRNA vaccines and stops replicating. To do what you're suggesting would require a virus that replicates, does not kill the host, and can attach to all cell types to fix relevant deficiencies. Moreover the virus would have to be persistent in order to continue modifying existing cell lines with genetic abnormalities.

It's impossible to do all that with existing technology without either killing the patient or causing some unforseen mutations, cancers, and autoimmune disorders. Fucking with the genetic code of nature organisms is beyond retarded and people who sign up for these experiments usually do so as a last resort.

>>15401019
Geneticists generally just copy nature and right now the best re-programming gadgets are viruses. Whenever people fuck with biology it never ends well. COVID was a result of genetic engineering and look at the mess it caused. Current human civilization is not capable of safe bio-engineering.

>>15400823

>hard to describe

A tiny bit, yes. :D
Can somehow simplify it by describing as a very complex netwörk but that does already create a barrier (which most never overcome) because such a visualization would be static ... and that is clearly not the case here, our netwörk is in permanent motion, vibration, rearrangement. Fluid as I like to call it (but yeah, I am fond of staring into bodies of water). Those of little understanding perceive this as noise I guess, but in fact its motive force is a very beautiful symphony if you got the ears (or eyes) for it.

>new doors are there but require education in anothet field like Physics, Mathematics or Evolution in specificity

Veeery much as I see it! Been there myself, back then still "limited" to biology overall but not with its specialized sub fields (and sub knowledgesets), more interdisciplinary (sadly today a catchy buzzword too).

>What do you do for work?

Did a immunology degree, spent a few years in research afterwards. Ultimately got fed up with it, got a chance and got out. More towards chemistry, got my own engineering company now (and business is finally starting to be gut).

>>15400866

Czeched btw ...

>You are what you eat.

Nomnom ... :3

>I wouldnt recommend it.

How many times have I said that by now?! :D

>>15401023
>the best re-programming gadgets are viruses.
Ever heard of Prime Editing or atleast cas-9?
>Whenever people fuck with biology it never ends well.
Agriculture and domestications begs to differ. Billions of people have eaten genetically modified food for the last 30 years and doomsdaysaying proved false. Human genetic modification already saved ten thousands of lives.

>>15397540
This thread is full of morons, Your basically asking if transient expression exists it does... End of thread lmao

This is literally how RNA vaccines work.

>>15401186
>More towards chemistry
I've been playing with the theory of making plants grow gold or similar metals, using its own "later atom maker", plants being able to "make matter" so obviously its doing so in the most finessed way, I liken it to "tipping it sideways/orthogona". Who knows...may pop out a theoretical atom, some isotope one day.

The current "big idea".
[slaps giant bag]
I've forgotten so many its painful, spoken into the void and forgetten, echoing for all eternity, no matter how drowned out.

>>15401278

>Who knows...may pop out a theoretical atom, some isotope one day.

Hmm, ambitious. One thing I learned from switching into engineering here ofc ... there's possibility, then there's feasibility and finally practicality. Had my whoopsies here too by now, not only in the lab.

>I've forgotten so many its painful, spoken into the void and forgetten, echoing for all eternity, no matter how drowned out.

Never truly lost ofc. Thing with the big picture, one sometimes loses focus of the fine details.

>>15401782
>Had my whoopsies here too by now
>too
>engineering
Ahem...all my degrees begin with the word "Theoretical". There cant even be a "whoopsie", only a "If you people werent a bitch we could!"
[dies]

Hrmph!

>>15402733

>There cant even be a "whoopsie", only a "If you people werent a bitch we could!"

Czeched. Consider going experimental, it is fun. :)

>>15402932
>Consider going experimental
I was, there was an experiement to produce ultra-high gamma radiation. Z-rays. The initial design was going to be 100 fold the power level needed, meaning had I stopped research and just went ahead and built it, I would have recieved a lethal dose.

Second experiment was to organically integrate metals to the central nervous system, I got the idea of using Paladium, then recieved word that it would "bond/decay" or some shit, bonding with something in the body and becoming radioactive. I believed it. I know gold will work, but other metals Im not so sure. I considered electrum too, even know the ratios. Curious how other nobel metals would fare.

Maybe test it on animals, but they wouldnt be able to give me a report, also would cost about $1,000 per test, one's Physiology may play a major role so it could be all for naught.

>>15403145

Ehehehe, I do like you already. :D

>Maybe test it on animals, but they wouldnt be able to give me a report, also would cost about $1,000 per test, one's Physiology may play a major role so it could be all for naught.

The last part applies in general, yes. Not that I outright endorse human experimentation here but with lab animals you mostly cannot draw direct conclusions ...

>>15403224
>lab animals you mostly cannot draw direct conclusions
The Palladium experiment I could, simply wait and see if it become radioactive, dying ofcourse. A bunny. Fed a feast for weeks while I prepare. If it works I need to have a plan for nuclear waste. Concrete? Havnt looked it up, cant be too expensive, maybe lead plates.

;_;

>>15403362

>If it works I need to have a plan for nuclear waste. Concrete? Havnt looked it up, cant be too expensive, maybe lead plates.

The poor bunny. Nevertheless ... uhm .. how much bequerel are we talking here? Because if not too much ... roadside. Or dump in a lake. Now srsly, depending on half life (if we're talking days here as with 103Pd maybe and not years), a solid lead box (perhaps inside a small water tank, is a cheap and simple absorber) and then sit it out for a year or so.

Can you two schizos shut the fuck up? Neither of you know anything about genetics or biology

>>15403576

Gusch bist, bleds Kind ... :)

>>15403563
>how much bequerel are we talking here
No clue, I dont think super hot, only the Z-rays is really worrisome. I just dont know of it would continue to react in a dead body. If so I would probably dump it in concrete. Findind an affordable radiation detector at "end fequencies" is the hard part there. Saw one on eBay a while ago, real old too.

Havnt looked into either tests in while. Need to get Palladium to over 5,000F, other metals are way lower and much easier to process.

Heh..."heavy applesauce".
;_;

>>15403600
I have no frame of reference for any of this, hence why I work Theory. Let someone else take "a table spoon of LSD" not know three drops was overboard.

>>15403576
It's the same person talking to themselves

>>15403704
Is everyone a samefag to you, retard?

>>15403576
Shhh the love is unfolding infront of our eyes mister. Enjoj this moment of reallity.

>>15403762
This retard is talking about modifying plants to perform fusion to make gold.

>>15403765
Blesed be his creativity.
And theyr love.

>>15403765
Iron may be the limit, at least where Im semi-expecting one, but gold is more alluring to the ear. I cant find the citation at the moment, but clearly remember a paper being reviewed on it. Standardly strictest environment to really home in on the Hypothesis. If it does this on *any* level it is just a matter or adjustment, but the matrix will not be in a predictable pattern, dynamic but also tonal.

It will be a landmark moment in both Phsyics and Genomics....good luck, humans.

Oh...and the end result is to make a living bioweapon able to metal and electrochemical energy...basically this, but thats like...plans long after Im dead. In fact most of what Im waiting for will take place after I am dead.
[Slaps bag.]
*sigh*....

>>15405491
>basically this
Wrong pic.

>>15405491
Iron snail.
Chrysomallon squamiferum.

>>15405521
It isn't performing nuclear fusion, it's proteome is integrating iron into its phenotype. Beavers have iron laced through their teeth too which is cool.

>>15407027
My phone's autocorrect will make the wrong grammatical corrections it's fucking annoying

>>15397540
eugenics for a better future

>>15407027
I know, its to show it can process metals just fine. I told you the plant citation I could find it.

I know more about everything in the universe than you ever will, you cant correct me...its offensive.

Dont at me again.

>>15407504
>plant citation I could not* find
Only I can correct me. Otherwise its just war.

>>15401196
>Ever heard of Prime Editing or atleast cas-9?
Don't know and don't care but good luck with that

>>15407118
All eugenic programs have a fatal flaw. Which is that by selecting "desirable" traits the species invariably reaches a terminal point wherein everyone is a clone of the same individual. This monoculture then is wiped out by a single virus which infects the entire population.

Eugenics is not as simple as people think. It's a compelling idea but fundamentally flawed because of the monoculture problem.

>thread full of namefags arguing about grade school biology which they don't even understand
Lmao never change /sci/

>>15407716
>grade school biology
Youre a filtered charlatan.

Youre not a Biologist, youre not a Geneticist....SO WHAT ARE YOU?!

>>15407800
>SO WHAT ARE YOU?!
I'm not a namefag homo , that's good enough for me.

>>15407821
>"no u r"
You will never be a scientist.

I WILL ALWAYS BE YOUR SUPERIOR.

The village elder has spoken, the judgement is final.

>>15407716
Only the 2 namefag schizos are doing this.

>>15397540
We don't use bacteria for trangenesis, whoever said that was retarded. Some times we use adenoassociated viruses. Maybe that's what he was refering to.
There are two main ways to insert a gene of interest into a cell. CRISPR based recombination or transposon systems.
Each have their advantages and disadvantages. CRISPR based recombination method has low success rate, 5% at most. This is why we use it on fertalised cells, that way we can select for the ones where it worked. So it's not very effective on developped organisms.
The transposon methods like sleepingbeauty or piggybac are far more effective, 100%, but they can cause unwanted mutations and even cancer, also the resulting expression rate is hard to control, as copy number is undetermined. So also not the best for use in developped organisms.
TL:DR, we can modify fuly developped organisms, we just don't have the technology to do it effectively.

>>15408831
Bacteriophage aren't bacteria dumbfuck

>>15408851
>bacteria responsible for carrying the desired gene
Quote from OP to which i said we don't use bacteria.

>>15408831
Thanks, sounds interesting. I've also heard of the concept of biolistics (using "gene guns" to genetically modify organisms), would something like that be a more efficient method? By the way, what do you mean by "the copy number is undetermined"? Would inventing a method that quickly modifies every single cell in the body leaving little time for complications solve the issues you mentioned?

Bump