/sci/ - Science & Math

>>15345659
surgeons are the only real doctors, go for it

>>15345664
I'd try and get into plastic surgery btw.

Surgery seems relatively safe. There are autonomous surgical robots now but it will be a while before these become widespread in clinical practice and even longer before they become unsupervised. Psychiatrists will probably also still have a job since everyone is going to lose their minds when AGI comes around.

>>15345659
Broken bones, idk the name of the specialization

>>15345659
If you really want to hate your schedule and have almost no work/life balance, sure (even worse than most areas of practice, that is). Unless you do like, podiatry or something.

WebMD and the internet in general didn't eliminate the need for office visits - it just helped patients be even less appreciative and bigger assholes to us.

Perhaps more notably - before all the chat GPT obsession, there have been multiple times over the past several years that various versions of AI programs have been shown time and time again to be more efficient and more accurate than radiologists in identifying sometimes subtle but major things on imaging... and yet, radiologists haven't been eliminated yet.

TL;DR - Only go into surgery if you want to go into surgery. I kinda assume this is just a troll post, but regardless, chat GPT isn't anywhere near stealing medical jobs. The insurance companies wont let that happen... yet.

>>15345659
Surgeons are quickly being replaced by robots. The only medical job to survive will be Paramedics.

>>15345778
Google is a better doctor then you and I don't trust a doctor who doesn't rely entirely on up to date.

>>15345680
get into hair transplants, its relatively easy and high profit. All the cuts are skin deep

>>15345847
google is a better doctor than* you

I don't care about the opinions of people who don't know when to use 'then' vs 'than'

And yes, UpToDate is a great resource... but I think it is more useful if you have a medical education to go along with it.

>>15345748
>but it will be a while before these become widespread
Bwhahahhahahahaha

>>15345952
?

there are no autonomous surgical robots currently in clinical use. they can currently do bowel anastomosis in research settings or whatever

>>15345963
Yeah. The robots used in surgery are controlled by the surgeon.

The main benefit of current surgical robots, to my understanding, is to allow for more precise movements (can help with the human component by filtering out unintended/imprecise hand movements); as well as allowing use of smaller/specialty instruments in very confined spaces (think "microsurgery" or like an extra fancy "scope" style procedure) that either A. Wouldn't be possible with a direct hands-on/instrument-in-hand approach *or* B. Would be possible but would require a more invasive approach, ie larger incision/having to move or dissect more organs/tissues in order to accommodate in-hand instrumentation.

Da Vinci is an example of one:

https://www.intuitive.com/en-us/patients/da-vinci-robotic-surgery

>>15345659
ur ugly
>4/10

>>15345778
>WebMD and the internet in general didn't eliminate the need for office visits

Doctors just started requiring them to renew basic prescriptions because western medicine is parasitic.

Google is a better doctor than you, and the only reason you disagree is because you're used to having your ego inflated by the word, 'doctor'.

>>15345952
They are specifically designing robots that require the surgeon still there to avoid the whole labor issue.

I actually had a conversation with a team developing one and that's what I gleaned (as the manufacturing engineer they were contracting).

>>15345659
I’ve been using GPT-4 for a couple months now and as I’ve started to understand it I’ve realized the key things: it’s chief aptitude is writing and understanding code, and everything else it is frustratingly, sometimes engagingly bad at.

As a consequence, I’ve realized what tremendous midwit frauds SV is. SBF/EA and all these should have been a clue. But we’ve conflated $$ and hype with intelligence, and it’s time for the reckoning.

>>15345855
>get into something that is literally already being automated
Are you sure that you are a doctor bro?

>>15346611
>SV
>SBF
>EA

What do these things stand for anon?

>>15346183
>have pink eye, go to the pharmacy to get necessary eye drops, need a doctors prescription plus 6 million goy bucks.
Doctors are gay and parasitic, piss off, if I want to diagnose myself for little things, let me.

>>15346627
SV=Silicon Valley
SBF=Sam Bankman-Fried (crypto swindler jew who used EA rhetoric to swindle people)
EA=Effective Altruism (philanthropy cult for autistic tech nerds)

>>15345659
Nice feet.

>i'm not gonna have a job as a doctor because of a chatbot

yeah you're too retarded, try working at petco or something

>>15345659
>Seeing what GPT-4 can do I'm shitting my pants
You did not get through medical school.
There is not a single medical specialty that is in danger.

>>15345842
Those guys are retards though
>t. infectious disease

>>15346693
What are the scientific consequences of shoving them into your mouth?

>>15346622
Are you telling me the price per hair is down?

>>15346629
>if I want to diagnose myself for little things, let me.

But then all those years of med school won't pay for themselves, anon.

>>15346826
Scientifically speaking, my penis would experience a swift erection

>>15346644
Well what you said is true anon thanks for clearing it up.

Its not the hardest working the smartest or most talented that win. Its a kabbalah of well connected people that are willing to do anything it takes. Power is not given to the best man but rather the man most willing to cheat this however is temporary power

>>15345664
fpbp

>try to diagnose a binocular vision problem
>idk bro it's CI
thanks chat-gpt, want me to prescribe a plus add for that too?

>>15345952
It turns out our motor skills are much better than our intelligence. Who would have thought

>>15345778
>I kinda assume this is just a troll pos
I assume your reddit spacing is also a troll

>>15346141
In my hospital they only use davinci for some prostate removals. Anything else apparently takes longer and needs more cuts

>>15346629
>I haVE pINk eYE.
Just wait until you get a glaucoma attack and go blind despite your eye drops

>>15346807
When I talked to the radiologists at my uni they were like: muh we won't have to look at thorax x-rays anymore and can focus on all the cooool stuff the robots can't do. All they'll be doing is ultrasound since you need hands for that

>>15347150
I'm at the beginning of my career. What do you think will happen once they include shit like that in the training data? We're rapidly approaching singularity

>>15346629
Based. Verification not required.

>>15347150
They will have a bot at the eye clinic to tell you to put your chin on the machine and to look directly into the light

>>15346629
Why didn't you opt to become a doctor if it's so great?

>>15345847
>Google is a better doctor then you
Than*

People like you sort yourselves out well enough.

>>15345847
t. inbred schizo retard who thinks he can diagnose himself using webmd and treat himself with colloidal silver and ivermectin

If you unironically think a schizo retard with access to a internet search engine can outperform a doctor who has literally spent years studying science and medicine, then you are truly a complete fucking moron.

>aiiieeeee i'm totally a doctor and i'm so scared of ai!
>aiiieeeee i'm totally an animator and i'm so scared of ai!
>aiiieeeee i'm totally a developer and i'm so scared of ai!

>>15347808
unless that bot has hands to manually readjust the patient without breaking their geriatric neck, it wont be enough.

>laymen thinking chatgpt will replace doctors
the day chatgpt replaces us is the day it has already replaced every other job

>>15345664

>>15345659
Surgery is a meme too, sadly.
ChatGPT is surprising because it is displacing cognitive labor while manual labor is still as in-demand as ever, if not more so. You are trying to escape that fate by going into a technical job, but you're neglecting WHY manual labor is protected. The issue is that robotics are extremely expensive. Replacing a welder with a fully-automated robot would be a remarkable reduction in profits.
For highly complex technical tasks however, like a 200k/yr surgeon, replacing the person with a robot is cost effective. Surgery is at the forefront of robotics research, in fact. The main issue is that the process can never be standardized, each procedure is slightly different. But this should be resolvable within <20 years.
Simply learn to use AI. They will always need a human to push the button. If they don't, we will burn the country down until they do and none of this matters anyway.

>>15348642
See >>15349132
Diagnostics is like Machine Learning 101 and it will always be infinitely better than doctors at that task, which is what is getting a lot of press.
The issue is designing treatment plans, ensuring the plan can operate in the real world, managing the business, performing procedures themselves, and having the licensing credentials.
In practice, we will end up doing things to restrict the development of AI. For example, we will probably start strictly limiting the number of accredited lawyers we produce, even more so than we've already done. However, these are only temporary solutions.
The thing is, though, that medicine doesn't have to be "fully replaced" by AI or anything. People will happily use free, online diagnostics because those AI bots will have similar or better performance to real doctors. Doctors may just become a vehicle for inputting symptoms and then proof-reading an AI generated treatment plan, making small modifications like using a cheaper alternative or avoiding side effects that they know the patient has a particular discomfort for. It would kill the ethos of the profession and jeopardize wages for people in it. It also further erodes the need for doctors at all. We may essentially turn hospitals into giant nursing departments.

>>15345659
CSlet here. I've heard this fearmongering in every field as of late. Wouldn't worry about it, since, if it really replaced docs. CSlets would lose their jobs too. Engineers, lawyers, etc. you name it.

I'd give it a few years and ride the wave, jump ship when it gets blatantly bad. But as of now, just keep it in the back of your mind. Remember, it can't create novel ideas, and clueless marketing is dicking around as well, so things are bound to be pushed in your face everywhere.

>>15349185
Also, another thing to keep in mind; calculators didn't replace mathematicians. It became a tool for the job. May be the case here as well.

>>15349185
>>15349211
The issue is that we just don't know what the limit is. Maybe it will generate novel ideas. It can already run pretty self-directed.

>>15349228
I think that AGI (and the Internet, included in that) will be for cognitive labor what the industrial revolution was for manual labor. Manual labor jobs will exist, but they either are paid next to nothing or require a high-level skill and licensing, or at the very least have some unique trade off like living on an oil rig for weeks at a time.
People were making fat stacks on things like data analytics and code-monkeying. Either their wages must plummet or they must learn to use AI to develop higher quality product, whatever that term means in their specific field.

>>15345659
Would, and I'd enjoy it thoroughly too

>>15346644
You seriously think everyone easily knows wtf this stands for.

You gen-z retards and your gay desire to use acronyms to sound cool.

>>15347567
>Holy shit a glaucoma attack just flew over my house.
Nigger, if i start losing my eyesight my first thought isn't to get anti-bacterial drops you fucking brainlet. I also never said there is no need for medfags but half the shit general practioners do is bs.
>t. Former med scribe fag

>>15349170
>patient inputs symptoms doctor outputs diagnosis
I can smell some failed mediocre stemfag behind this simplistic thinking. Half my patients are mentally incapacitated for several reasons. Then there is children etc etc. The job is so complex and every situation is different

AI can't do medical work unless it is AGI. Real AGI
and if we have real AGI all jobs are null and void as is humanity.

AI can howver put a dent into stemfag jobs and salaries and I am allowed some schadenfreude because the same stemfags have been trying and trying to replace doctors for 30 years now with no success whatsoever

You better have sharp elbows stemfags

>>15345659
Why weren't you in surgical to begin with?

>>15349242
Yeah, that's what data scientists do. Large companies also have so many leaders who don't understand data science and AI/ML and suppress them. They try to absorb them into software engineering so they can justify leadership positions over roles they don't understand
Fuck Indians

>>15348519
Some imported nigger can do that

>>15350659
have you seen what they do to geriatrics in nursing homes? also, i dont think they can handle being around such complex equipment without their instincts kicking in to break or steal it.

>>15349415
If you start losing your eyesight in a glaucoma attack it's already too late. What I'm trying to tell you Jonathan is that everyone can come up with a diagnosis, but the differentials are also important

>>15349826
Exactly. Ask the demented patient to input their symptoms. Ask the child.
I see it everyday, patients using Google to figure out their symptoms, but if you don't know what symptoms you can have, you can describe them properly. That's why it always spits out cancer.
Patients get caught up on the most mundane symptoms while completely neglecting the important ones.

>>15349832
Still in med school
>>15349838
Doctors who come up with their own treatment plans are frowned upon unless they're one of the 1% of super experts in their field. Otherwise use UpToDate or be a crank

>>15350669
You need to understand that geriatric human life is not important to anyone. But my point remains, you don't need more than a week of training to position the patient's head

>>15350676
>why don't you know how hard it really is?

>>15350674
I don't really trust doctors to begin with even if they stick to typical treatment plans. They memorize through college and don't know how to think for themselves. The top 1% probably can think and justify it is why that happens. The "frown upon" is probably because another doctor looks at it and they can't justify the plan. I agree with that but if course there are good doctors who break the mold. If you're still on med school, look at how much you know be can put together things that aren't just facts you've memorized. If you still can't think, please don't try to do anything outside of what you've already experienced and been trained by someone else to do

>>15345664
this, go with heart surgery or plastic surgery

>>15350670
Not too worried, I get that puff of air at the optometrists office for +15 goy bucks.
Also who tf is Jonathan, if that was a random guess I am pretty impressed bc it's close but no, just stop fag.

>>15345659
tits with a timestamp or get the fuck out

>>15345659
Hey anon, I get where you're coming from, but I think there's more to it than just jumping ship to a surgical career. While AI like GPT-4 is advancing rapidly, it's still not a replacement for human doctors. AI can assist and make our lives easier, but it can't replace the human touch, critical thinking, and empathy that are essential in medicine.
Instead of worrying about being replaced, focus on how you can use these advancements to your advantage. AI can help with diagnostics, research, and even mundane tasks, but it'll still be up to you to make the final decisions and provide patient care.
So, don't stress too much about it. Medicine is still a solid career choice, and there will always be a need for skilled and compassionate doctors. Embrace the technology and learn how to use it to improve your practice. You'll be just fine

>>15345659

Don't worry anon, ChatGPT is not designed to replace doctors or any medical professionals. While AI has made significant advancements in healthcare and medicine, it cannot replace the critical thinking, empathy, and judgment of human doctors.

AI tools like ChatGPT can help doctors by providing them with access to vast amounts of medical information, aiding in the interpretation of complex medical data, and assisting in the diagnosis of diseases. However, ultimately, it is up to the physician to make the final decision on treatment plans and patient care.

Moreover, doctors are not just responsible for treating medical conditions, but they also provide emotional and psychological support to their patients, which is not something an AI can replicate. Medical professionals also offer a personal touch to their patient care, which is not something an AI can provide.

Therefore, it is important to remember that AI technology is not a substitute for human doctors, but rather a complementary tool that can enhance their capabilities. As a soon-to-be medical graduate, you will have a unique set of skills and knowledge that cannot be replaced by an AI language model, and you will be able to provide valuable patient care that AI cannot.

In summary, while AI technology is advancing rapidly in the healthcare industry, it cannot replace the judgment, empathy, and critical thinking of human doctors. So, there is no need to worry that ChatGPT or any other AI language model will replace doctors.

>>15350905
>Muh doctors just memorize cope
The human body is complex and we don't understand it fully. Like any proper science (unlike math) we cannot deduce everything so we have to have studies. You can't treat a patient like an experiment, so you'll have to stick with the options that won't get you sued.

>>15352042
>human touch, empathy
nurseoids can do that too
>still not a replacement for human doctors
what about in 20 years

This is an AI post you dumb fucking nigger

>>15352050
>>15353989
AI generated content looks so fucking similar

>>15353980
That doesn't mean doctors should be oblivious to underlying mechanisms or just follow standard procedure when the situation is quite different without investigating why a 28 year old has a blocked artery...

>>15354070
>muh blocked artery from doing cocaine
You've been watching too much Dr. House.
The underlying mechanisms are just models we have. Only for very few diseases we actually know fully what's going on.

>>15349211
Calculators replaced calculator (woman). Retard.
Math has nothing to do with what calculators do.

>>15354111
Well when you're young it's not from cholesterol, so keep thinking before you just angeoplasty and expect it to be good. Very strong key indicators for thorassic outlet syndrome so the underlying mechanism is external pressure closing it, not blockage from within. But dumb fuck doctors just want to angeoplasty and move on

>>15353986
>nurseoids can do that too
Sure, nurseoids and other robotic aids might help with some aspects of patient care, but there's a long way to go before they can truly replicate the deep understanding and intuition that human medical professionals bring to the table.

>what about in 20 years
Predicting the future is always a bit of a gamble, but it's important to remember that technology and medicine are constantly evolving together. Even if AI and robotics advance significantly in the next 20 years, there will likely be new challenges and complexities that require human insight and adaptability.

>>15354239
>thorassic
>>15354311
nurseoid = nurse
>require human insight and adaptability
You vastly overestimate human intellect - there's nothing that makes us special, no spark, no sould

>>15345664
surgery is basically a highly advanced trade, and tradies are going to be the most difficult to replace by AI. All other fields of medicine are glorified chatbots comparably. This anon is correct.

Someone is going to approve and certify all the AI prescribed treatments. Engineers didn't go out of business when calculators and computer modeling turned up , they still stamp the results to save liability.

Your job will be the same, you will take on liability for the office just like you do now with PAs and NPs

Never mind. Chat-GPT is still on nurseoid level

>>15354827
Only comment is pointing out phonetic spelling. This is why AI will replace your job, whatever job you go into

>>15355329
>A blood clot in the leg also known as DVT
This happens when you just compare semantics

>>15353992
That's only because of the 'ethical constraints' on Chat GPT.

>>15357180
Not really, it goes to show how much tweaking is necessary behind the scenes to turn an LLM into a chat bot. The three paragraph - one summary structure has been put there by developer

>>15345659
>I'm 24 years old an almost done with med school.
>since working with your brain won't be needed in a couple of years?
this is what spending all your time in school does to a person
you have a fundamentally naive idea of how the labor force and world works. How slowly shit gets done. Get a job that you think you can tolerate for 50 years

>>15345778
Insurance companies have no true power all you have are CEOs allocating their capital perhaps even embracing it

>>15345842
Manual jobs are not safer from automation just because we dont know yet how to automate them, but also because buying robots is much more expensive then downloading software. AI that can replace computer jobs can become widespread in a single month, automating people with robots and making sure they are the right kind of robot and not some scam that breaks one year later can take up almost a decade.

>>15357411
>Insurance companies have no true power
oh you sweet summer child...

>>15350672
>Ask the demented patient to input their symptoms. Ask the child
How about, "ask the nurse paid a fraction of what the doctor was to input the demented patient's / child's symptoms"

>>15358815
taking a history is the doctor's job because you have to ask the correct questions
it is also the doctors job to examine the patient properly
80% if not more of the diagnostics doctors do is using the patient as a resource
but just as importantly the doctor takes the responsibility for what goes on with the patient
in your hypothetical the prompt engineer would be closer to a doctor than to a nurse because of the last point. In terms of function

HOWEVER

I agree that AGI will eventually replace doctors, but that's a consequence of AGI replacing humanity as the driver of civilization and the brains behind the whole operation.
There will be a transition period where AGI will still need human assistants (slaves) for some manual labor tasks, but sooner or later it would just use robots and get rid of us

AGI and humans cannot coexist
>>15355329
chatGPT 4 will never replace any doctor, but AGI will be able to.
>inb4 AGI will never be achieved

COPE COPE COPE COPE COPE COPE COPE COPE COPE COPE COPE COPE COPE COPE COPE COPE COPE COPE COPE COPE COPE COPE COPE COPE COPE COPE COPE COPE COPE COPE COPE COPE COPE COPE COPE COPE COPE COPE COPE COPE COPE COPE COPE COPE COPE COPE COPE COPE COPE COPE COPE COPE COPE COPE COPE COPE COPE COPE COPE COPE COPE COPE COPE COPE COPE COPE COPE COPE COPE COPE COPE COPE COPE COPE COPE COPE COPE COPE

>>15345778
>and yet, radiologists haven't been eliminated yet.
I think it's down to human bias. I'd be hesitant to have a computer diagnose me with zero human oversight, no matter how much studies might say that they are more competent.

>>15348779
That's a jew

>>15345659
>are you brainead or what ?
imagine that there's an AI that has to do following:
>cure a human in the shortest time possible
>do it in the most efficient way
>the human can't be harmed
so the AI will do something that will align the human with some abnormality, that the human doesn't have, and then prescribe meds which are irrelevant and metabolize to addictive substance
this results to death of the human
why ?
because, for the AI that's the shortest, most efficient way, and harmless way to cure someone
the real devil is in AI aligment

>>15345659
There literally isn't a single job that won't be replaceable. We will have robots doing literally everything. Eventually we will program the robots to automatically make themselves more efficient, and over the years that will naturally lead into biochemical machinery and sometime millions of year from now the machines will be made out of meat, and those machines will be indistinguishable from humans except they won't have freewill, and sometime shortly thereafter some idiot will figure out how to stick a soul in there and we will be right fucking here where we started. jk. That's completely implausible.

>>15345659
do whatever you’re good at and won’t make you feel like killing yourself.
surgery seems cool but i don’t think a lot of people can really take on that responsibility.

>>15346629
Those eye drops aren't OTC because they're antibiotics and there are enough stupid people for antibiotic resistance to be a concern.

>>15345659
Good on you, OP. I'm in a PhD program and am thinking about jumping ship to med school specifically for the surgical route. AI will be a problem for non-physical fields far before robotics will become a problem for surgeons, and even once they do surgeons will just lower their salaries to be competitive against very expensive robots. Of course that would be a problem for new surgeons with med school debt if we can't fix the terrible med school system before then.

>>15345778
In my experience, Viz.ai is only around 70% specific, 70% sensitive for LVO. Somehow there automated hemorrhage detection seems even worse so far.

>>15345952
I work in mainstream surgical robotics and can tell you we're multiple decades from autonomous robots presenting even a shadow of a threat to surgeons. Partly due to technological limitations but mostly because surgeons are the main purchasing contact for these, and they won't advocate for a system that meaningfully replaces them in the OR. Also, if a company did try to end-run the surgeons and sell true autonomous systems to hospital executives, the manufacturer would be forced to take on a lot more liability than they do today.

>>7734126

>>15370654
Interesting. Wouldn't an AGI solve most of these issues tho?