/sci/ - Science & Math

Any answer you could possibly give to this question is rendered null and void by the fact that you could just as easily flip all of the signs involved.
The fact is that in terms of physical significance, negatives are primarily just convenient notation for denoting that something is applied opposite to something else

rate of change, for example

>>15318588
Positron: From my side of the force You're the negative one!

>>15318605
That's a relation between two quantities though, which are themselves positive or 0

today's average American IQ?

>>15318606
From the losing side, you might clarify. You could also ask some earlier losers, the Canaanites, how they felt about the Lord. They'd probably feel about the same as you.

>>15318615
You are tarded.

>>15318628
OK so what is quantified as a negative value?

>>15318595
>Any answer you could possibly give to this question is rendered null and void by the fact that you could just as easily flip all of the signs involved.
Not if there's only one sign

no. it's only a abstraction and a description used in language. it has no basis in the physical world. you know this.

>>15318635
>no basis in the physical world
all western longs and southern lats disagree.<div class="xa23b"><span class="xa23t"></span><span class="xa23i"></span></div>

Dark matter isn't real. It was just some theoretical physicist covering up for his bad theory.

>>15318638
that is language. in the physical world you have directions, and none of them are negative.

>>15318638
N

>>15318635
What is subtraction, Alex?

>>15318638
not an actual thing in the physical world, just ways of talking about the world

>>15318653
subtraction in the physical world has no negative things
and, subtraction is a mental abstraction imposed upon the world. objects, negation, language, they are only descriptions of the real world by humans they are not the real world itself. there's no negative things in the real world.

How has no one brought up electrical charge yet<div class="xa23b"><span class="xa23t"></span><span class="xa23i"></span></div>

>>15318662
the use of negative things in electrical charge is only a human description, its not a physical reality

>>15318588
Electrical charge of a particle is either negative or positive

>>15318630
If you use more money than you have, your bank account balance will be a negative number.

>>15318634
tell me about all of the physical cases where there's only negatives involved, and where calculations wouldn't work out identically if we considered them as positives instead

>>15318666
you can use any two made up words there
left right
up down
jombo binga
doesn't make a negative thing a reality. it's only a convention.

>>15318627
>From the losing side
He took over the Galaxy after fending off an attempt to steal the election by a terrorist organization that tried to assasinate the Chancelor (because he's literaly a nazi just kill him ok). Had they not added the kid killings it would have been a clear "good guy" story of a troubled but bright youth bought from slavers (but didnt end the slavery *wink-wink*) into a celebate jihadi cult.

The Empire kept trying to *Arrest* the criminals and the Jedi shot them dead throughout all the movies (cop killers).

"Democracy when we win but tyranny when we lose."

No...their feelings are wrong and merely counter-revolutionary contrarianism devoid of Truth.

>Yuri Bezmenov
De-moralized. This means theyre no longer "moral" and the state can simply add a new media campaign to showcase this or that as no longer bad but a güt thing now, as it always has been++.

>Rock; Unbroken Eternal

>>15318606
>The path of the anti particle is one many consider to be unnatural

>>15318677
Who said anything about calculations? You can't just "flip the sign" when you're talking about mass or something, 500g is not -500g
>>15318661
Ok so where tf does the concept even come from, that's what I'm curious about. Like how did someone come up with shit like negative, when there doesn't seem to be anything you can abstract it from in the world

>>15318588
Yes. Like dropped temperature, it's a losing number.
So -30 degree Fahrenheit for instance

It exist in phenomena that involves losing things

>>15318768
Kelvin is used for temperature and it doesn't go below zero obviously, F°/C° is just another way of writing it that's more useful for typical everyday life

>>15318788
Yeah

>>15318768
0 degrees F/C is arbitrary and absolute zero cannot go below that as the matter being "temped" would turn into a cloud.
>phenomena that involves losing things
Yet exists somewhere else, matter/energy it matters not, it simply is elsewhere in the system.

>itt retards who don't understand what OP is saying
jesus fucking christ. why is /sci/ such a shithole nowadays? every example so far has been conceptual based on human constructs, not objective parts of the natural world

>>15318793
Even in electromanetism, negative simply denotes direction or contraction/expansion.

>>15318795
>every example so far has been conceptual based on human constructs
lmao

SCI WTF

>>15318715
they came up with it by generalising numbers
mathematics can generalise anything it wants, even if it doesn't have to apply to the real world. That's why you can have different axiomatic theories. like euclidian geometry, and hyperbolic geometry just as a example of two types of axiomatic systems in geometry.

>>15318715
>Like how did someone come up with shit like negative
You bank is a system like the universe, if you removed matter or energy from the universe it would be a total negative to the system, like money from the bank.
But in both examples it simply went elsewhere, but a closed system like the bank it allows for a negative, just not in "the universe", as the money went into another system. Even if burned its just a removal of a positive.

>>15318845
>Even if burned its just a removal of a positive.
Wait...did I just check myself?...still thinking about that damned Anakin post...

>>15318793
>Yet exists somewhere else, matter/energy it matters not, it simply is elsewhere in the system.

But it does not stay in one place. It moves from it's original place to another place.

>Even in electromanetism, negative simply denotes direction or contraction/expansion.

OP question is about negative numbers, whether they exist or not. Since it's a language perhaps it's nothing but just a way of denoting something is moving away from where it's originally do.

It does exist, if it meant to denote a mathematical boundary. For physical? Maybe it does not?

Ah, am I contradicting myself!

>>15318852
>But it does not stay in one place. It moves from it's original place to another place.
Location or even movent should be irrelevent to thr system, a ball is one hand or the other doesnt make is a "negative ball", it is just moved in relation to everything else. Infact its movement iversely moved the rest of the planet in a sense, like how jumping pushes the planet down, and the two return to the zero neutral state from to opposite +1's.

>OP question is about negative numbers
Negative physical reality, waaay harder to answer.
>something is moving away from where it's originally do
Then I tilt my head and call it a positive direction.

>>15318795
I'm just wondering where the fuck the concept even comes from if it doesn't exist in the real world then, it seems to be an oddity.

>>15318707

>>15318882
>Location or even movent should be irrelevent to thr system, a ball is one hand or the other doesnt make is a "negative ball", it is just moved in relation to everything else. Infact its movement iversely moved the rest of the planet in a sense, like how jumping pushes the planet down, and the two return to the zero neutral state from to opposite +1's.
Oh yeah

>>15318715
>You can't just "flip the sign" when you're talking about mass or something, 500g is not -500g
Good thing 500g isn't relevant to the original question, then. Unless you can show me a case where it specifically has to be negative and specifically matters that it's negative (i.e. where we can't just flip the sign of a negative to make it positive and have everything work out the same, as I said), then I suggest you start using your critical reasoning :)

>>15318918
>500g isn't relevant to the question
>"Is there anything in the universe that has some property which is of a negative value"
Is this a troll post? The question isn't "do negative numbers exist", it's "is negativity descriptive"

>>15318588
COUNTER-SPACE!

1D Klein Bottle, the inverted inside sphere is negative space, thus gravity trying to fill it with positive side of matter. (In this theory gravity is a kind of mono-pole with the negative pole being "inside" and the positive pole being "outside" even though the inhabite the same space.

>>15318588
Listen bud, this shit is solved. Let me fill you in (no homo).
Now, the first ape to conceptualize numbers was no doubt the greatest living genius of all time, making Newton and Einstein look like mental midgets. Think about it, You have a culture with absolutely no concept of numbers then one day super IQ monkey boy starts counting on his fingers. BAM! Now you have got numbers. That's an incredible leap of abstract thinking.

But then things starting getting weird as the thousands of years passed. Now numbers were part of nearly everyone's mental framework and so inevitably some 2nd rate minds decided to think about number lines. Unfortunately some cuck interrupted his wet dream by considering that the number line could go in BOTH directions, infinitely. That was two major fucks ups for the price of one. The bad news for Humanity was this retarded idea gained traction, it was particularly popular among the vermin who wanted to formalize the conception of debt, for obvious reasons. So we got saddled with negative numbers, which in turn gave us the fantasy of imaginary numbers, and fucking infinity.

But here is the good news. Some of us are beginning to fight back against this patent absurdity, saying "Enough of this nonsense!" Fuck negative numbers. They do NOT exist. Simple as that. And fuck infinity, It does NOT exist. Tell any raving sodomite that says otherwise that dreaming up the idea of unicorns and flying pigs does not make them real.

Listen friend, Salvation is at hand from the clutches of those GOD CURSED negative number freaks. Here it is. The number line starts at 1 ( because zero does NOT exist either ) and keeps going until you reach MOAN. The Mother Of All Numbers. Which is the largest possible number in the Universe. Nothing can be added to MOAN because there is nothing left in the Universe to add. Attempting to add 1 results in sailing off the edge of existence to be devoured by hungry hyperspatial sea monsters. Serves them right.<div class="xa23b"><span class="xa23t"></span><span class="xa23i"></span></div>

>>15319000
>Estimated IQ: 88 (average)

>>15319000
I think you're actually onto something even if this is a meme. I mean I guess you can come up with "null" after you wake up since time passed and you remember none of it, but where how does that result in negativity?

Each second that passes, you have -1 second to live

Negative numbers require more than one point of perspective. Physical reality is made out of three dimensions with the only point of perspective "now". Negative numbers require contrast, like two "nows", to make any sense and therefore are a +4 dimensional entity

>>15319085
>like two "nows"
Same thing, right? Your now is this very second, their now is this very month.

>>15319097
>I wonder if its opened its eyes yet...or, like...looked around at all since the big bang...

>>15318588
If you look at the entire cosmos at once then energy is always conserved - assuming an ultimately monist perspective (Spinozism) then, no, you can't totally negate any part of the cosmos, you can only measure its change.

That's not how we typically use maths in physics, though. Though the universe might be composed of a single substance (energy), that substance ultimately forms discrete, complex, systems within the cosmos, and if you're measuring one of these systems then, yeah, energy is lost to the environment thus necessitating negative numbers.<div class="xa23b"><span class="xa23t"></span><span class="xa23i"></span></div>

>>15319119
>Spinozism

Math is a model of the natural world
Positive and negative electrons are a model yes, but it allows you to describe the phenomena behind electricity
A lot of you know math way better than I do but skip this
Do they not teach this?

>>15318588
>is there actually anything in the universe that has some property which is of a negative value?
the chances of you having sex

>>15319126
What the fuck are you trying to say and why be so cryptic? Is it autism? Do you just assume we all inhabit your brain? Fuck off.

Spinozism is just the starting point not only for modern natural philosophy, but modern political philosophy too. Ethica not only lays down the law as it pertains to nature (everything is one substance, change is cause and effect), but also as it pertains to human justice (the self-limiting government was conceived of by Spinoza, at least as far as the western canon goes).

Yadda yadda yadda - kill yourself.

>>15319126
Why is this schizo still unbanned

>>15319059
The Universe is finite. Because I said so. At its simplest the Universe can be thought to contains bits of information, each of which are equal to 1. The MOAN system is based upon that. There is no zero because otherwise the universe would not exist. Likewise there are no negatives. If you could add up the total number of bits of information in the Universe you would have calculated MOAN. MOAN therefore comes at the end of the number line. There is no number line beyond that. There is no number line before 1.

That is not to say that subtraction does not work, but its the removal of positive numbers, not an operation involving the addition of negative numbers, the caveat in this case being that it is impossible to subtract more than already exists. A subtle but significant difference. However multiplication by negative number is impossible since negative numbers do not exist. Furthermore when the math revolution comes all those who opposed the MOAN conception will be rounded up, beaten with bamboo sticks, sterilized, and then permanently exiled to Bikini atoll in the Pacific ocean.

Maybe,a shadow?

>>15319577
>natural philosophy
>political philosophy
Sir, this is a Pysics drive-thru.

There's an easy way to think of negative numbers if you are having trouble getting your head around the idea. Now just imagine you have an apple in your right hand. In your left hand you have nothing. Now place the apple on a table for a moment and bring both your hands together. What is the sum total of apples in your hands? Nothing right? Okay, now here comes the important part. Face away from the apple on the table and using both hands reach behind you until you touch the apple. Holding the apple firmly between both hands suddenly thrust your butt down on the apple so that it jams up your anus. That's what negative numbers are like.

Hope this has been of some help to you.

>>15318588
sunglasses

>>15318588
No. Negative things do not have a material counterpart, they're an abstract concept that helps people understand and visualize a negative change in a certain value.
Math makes more sense when you understand that it isn't a science, but a language.

>>15318588
no, there is nothing in nature that can be abstract to negativity.
its made up by jews to generate a fake load balance to take your things

>>15321651
the suction when you flush a shit down the toilet is materially negative

>>15321705
Nope. It's just a smaller positive than the one above the shit. There is no such thing as negative pressure, because the limit is perfect vacuum, aka zero. Anywhere above that and you have positive pressure, anywhere below that and you're taking away matter from a place that doesn't have any left, which is impossible.
The difference between the inside pressure and the outside pressure is indeed negative, but that's just a mental gimmick that you use to understand why your shit gets flushed.

>>15321748
cute story but if you flush a toilet in a perfect vacuum the shit still goes down

>>15318668
but it doesnt exist, its a concept. debt is not a physical entity.

>>15321803
retard

>>15321576
That's a good explanation, thanks Anon! I will be sure to try it next time I want to demonstrate negative numbers to someone.

>>15321803
>if you flush a toilet in a perfect vacuum the shit still goes down
Because of the weight of the water pushing on your turd, not because of "negative pressure" "sucking" your turd down the pipe.
>inb4 more of your dumb replies
Here's a video of a guy attempting to use a syringe to suck water in a vacuum. Surprise surprise, it doesn't suck anything, because of the vacuum.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfqSCa2mYJw

Learn what pressure is before you reply.

>>15318664
shut up fag
you;'re just going to say this every time someone gives you a perfectly valid example

>>15321884
>the weight of the water pushing on your turd,
bzzt. cute story but the turd is floating and still gets sucked down
any other retards want to play?

>>15318588
Yes. Your IQ is one such example.

>>15321907
>perfectly valid example
The only examples that have been given are ones that show we have a concept of subtraction

>>15318964
It was answered here, guys...Gravity being the inversion (negative) of matter.


Just...and FYI....

>>15318688
>>15318627
Oh...and He saved the Galaxy, killed the Emperor and kept Luke(warm) from his suicide by ignorance and hubris (the danger of the middle path/Grey path because it produces weak men (adult children). Luke could never "be the adult" and lived like Peter Pan(demonium, which transpired because he "needed to help his frens" from dad's rules [frumpy face].)

Vader, Palpatine and Jar Jar knew (or would have) that Luke was Anakin's son but (weak fool) Yoda never did?! Or knew of Leia, wasnt he basiclally there?! Obi Wan never telling Luke who he was on a mission to kill was, knowing FULL WELL Luke has ZERO chance of winning?!? Its almost like he wanted Luke to be sent into the absolute certain death trap.

YODA WAS A FOOL! Knowing both sides of the force is vastly superior...the Jedi are fools.

>>15322173
Idiot, anything negative will involve subtraction by definition.

>>15322306
>subtraction
The addition of a vacuum creates a negative pressure volume. If there no atoms in an area then one cannot take further from it. For the Lord giveth and Lord taketh...the Lordeth cannot double taketh.

:^)

>>15322315
>adding a negative is the same as subtracting a positive
deep

>>15318588
>is there actually anything in the universe that has some property which is of a negative value?
everything that is in the world is positive, that's why we call it natural things if it hasnot human intervention, but natural things are always positive because the discovery is an adition of new knowledge, so what happen with the negative things, well they are there but it's impossible to us to see them with our senses because they are not positive, so we need to see it throught indirective manners like the negation of a positive thing fr example if we eliminate the being, we get the non-being, and so on

>>15322318
>adding a negative
WRONG. I am removing a positive value. You see negative because you think sea level BAR of 1 is zero...sir, IT IS NOT. Void space is zero, not dense atmosphere of atoms and ignorance.

>>15322345
Ergo; Releasing air from a baloon isnt adding negative air.

>>15319684
>Furthermore when the math revolution comes all those who opposed the MOAN conception will be rounded up, beaten with bamboo sticks, sterilized, and then permanently exiled to Bikini atoll in the Pacific ocean.
Unfathomably based.

>>15321907
>give human conventions as examples
>get told they're only descriptions and don't reflect phyisical reality
>complain

>>15322306
You can't perform subtraction with only one quantity, arithmetic doesn't apply to this question then

>>15321908
You float on water too, but a wave will push you down.
The only retard here is you.

>>15318588
Negative numbers are necessary whenever a quantity can be described one way or another relative to some basis. Consider the slope of a line. It can either go up or down. "Up" and "down" are arbitrary labels, but whatever you call them —"red" and "blue" or "idealistic" and "cynical" or whatever — you're going to have two opposite things, so if you want to quantify the slope of a line you need negative numbers.

The same principle also applies to any vector quantity really. You've got some basis vectors, and you want to describe another vector in terms of those basis vectors. You *have* to have negative numbers, or else you're unable to describe three quarters of the vectors in the space you're in; you can only quantify the ones that are positive sums of your basis vectors.

Then there's calculus. Derivatives are negative roughly half the time. If the temperature was 80° at noon and 60° at sunset, what was the rate of change of temperature over that time? It was negative, is what it was. You could work around it by using a positive number and assigning a direction (like "down") but that just takes us back to the vector problem where you have to have negative numbers to quantify all vectors in a given space relative to some basis. "10 down" is the same as "−10 up".

Then of course there's the classic textbook example: debt. We need negative numbers to quantify any kind of debt, financial or otherwise. If you start with 10 and you take away 20, you must have negative numbers to express the result: −10.

So yeah, there are lots of physically meaningful quantities that can only *conveniently* be expressed with negative numbers.

>>15318588
There are equal amount of negative and positive things, its just how things are defined like
Oscilation, has defined basis of 0 so negative things has to exist relative to that defined basis
Left and Right can be considered positive and negative and Center would be the basis 0 once again
Quantity vs Reservation, is tricky but.. system that lacks energy when you try to turn the system on you could say that the system that you are starting has 0 energy but still if you try to start it anyway it takes energy from other parts of the system and actually consume energy "when there is 0" from those other parts, like starting a car that has no fuel, the starting up will take energy from car battery or other parts.
If you only consider fuel to be 0 in this case, and there is no negative fuel but it still has the opposite effect than a positive fuel has, so technically the opposite of positive fuel exist because you can see that it causes damage

>>15322753
your toilet has waves in it? dumb ass bitch lmao

>>15322637
you live in a padded cell with only one "quantity"? should have known

Why does the distance from -1 to 1 is 2?
Why does it take two from zero?

>>15318588
Your mother exists

>>15318595
>something is applied opposite to something else
Yes, this is what negative means. Are you saying that nothing in the universe can be applied opposite any other thing in the universe? That's absurd,

>>15318588
Numbers themselves don't actually exist. They are mere representations of physical phenomena.

E.g. If there is a single banana on my desk, I have one banana. The single banana on its own is not "1". The choice to describe it as "one banana" is a human invention, since I am only considering the set of all bananas within some neighbourhood of my desk within the time frame of now and the next 5 minutes. Yesterday there was not one banana on my desk. Right now there is not one banana on my floor. If I extend my spacial domains to include the whole world, there will be more bananas. If I extend it to include all of time, there will be more still. So, maybe 1 is a mere imaginatory trick I have created by restricting the set of relevant bananas to my desk in these five minutes, but surely (you argue) the number of all bananas across all of space and time is a true figure, and *that* number exists... right? Well, no, because we are still restricting ourselves to consider "bananas", which itself is a restriction on the set of all matter, which is a restriction on the set of all energy, which is a representation of appearances and not truly things as they actually exist.

In sum, I can say nothing about how things truly are, all I have is the appearance of things. Thus, 1 represents the quantity of bananas existing in a spacial-temporal box that I have decided to construct, but 1 is not the same thing as the quantity of bananas, otherwise my dog would have OD'd on potassium from all the homework it ate.

>>15324330
"You have reached age 5 cognitive ability!"

Gzzz!

>>15318588
Yes. Negative things are merely directions. You can't have negative apples, but if you describe east as positive than westward is defined as negative (the opposite direction).

Negative numbers are best thought of in this way, simply direction on the 1D plane. Moving up or down, left or right. These things are where negatives come into play.

How would you define a number for going east without defining it's opposite in the westward direction?

>>15324490
Age is not just a number, contrary to popular idioms

>>15318588
The earth is flat with a dome. Black holes don't exist. Dark matter is a meme.

>>15322518
>mUh HuMAn ConVentIonS HURRRRRR
"numbers" don't actually "exist" either, retard. You can't hold a three in your hand. Positive quantities are as much a "human convention" (redundant) as negative ones.

>>15325384
>Positive quantities are as much a "human convention"
The word "three" is a human invention. The symbol "3" is a human invention. The idea of there being three things in a set —tangible things or intangible things —is universal, not arbitrary.

>>15325619
>The idea
Yes, ideas are definitely not human inventions.

>>15318588
Difference

>>15325875
Concepts are not human inventions. They exist in their instantiations (things that exist) and are abstracted using reasons.

>>15318588
Numbers don't exist. They are just useful mental objects that draw analogue relationships with actual quantities. The usefulness of negative number will rely on the analogy you're trying to make.

We create mathematical concepts to simplify reality and draw analogies between the concepts and actual things. However, through reason, we can use these mental concepts to deduce new relationships and then find analogues of these theoretical relations in real objects.

>>15318588
your bank balance

HEH

>>15318588
No and irrational numbers don't exist either. Think about: The universe is a finite computer; it can't possibly do infinite calculations. All physics that involves infinite expansions is bullshit.

>>15327368
>The universe is a finite computer
It isn't either of those things.

>>15325384
you are like those people who say that chairs and things right in front of you don't actually exist.
there's a difference between reality and human conventions.

>>15328373
Reality is subject to interpretation by our senses. We can all agree that there's a chair there, but if we zoom in beyond the microscopic to the molecular, then atomic, then subatomic scales, what that chair actually IS and the boundary between it and the rest of the world become harder and harder to define.

>>15318588
Negative things are a convention used for practical reasons. As they are a constructed concept, they model reality, but they're not reality. So, to answer your question, there aren't negative things, or positive things, there are only things, without any concept added to them.

>>15318588
Negative pressure. Like between your ears.

>>15328425
Not really. Molecules makes up the identifiable differences between the chair and the surrounding matter. Molecules are or known bond types, those goes down to the quantum field level.
It's very clear where the chair ends and where the surrounding matter begins.

>>15318588
Not if youre greek

>>15324252
It means that a negative number is not a simple count in the way that positive numbers are. One stone can exist on its own, but “negative one stone” cannot, it can only be conceived of if there is some positive number of stones to take away. Similarly, debt is not literally negative money, as if you die $100 in debt with no assets or relatives the debt has to effectively be absolved.

>>15329363
Not true, even using your stone example. For example, in terms of stones, every lake is a negative number of stones, negating every stone dropped into it until positive and negative balance out.

>>15318668
You are using someone else's positive money technically. It is just an abstraction to say money was used and you will use money later to replenish it. You are never using negative money. Negatives are a syntax of positive integers, they are not numbers in and of themselves.