/sci/ - Science & Math

>>15291909
Thanks for this. Had a discussion at work and a girl pulled the classic NPC line “it’s not called germ THEORY because it’s just a theory, it’s been scientifically tested and proven!” as if that’s the reason why I criticize it, lol

>>15291909
If germs didn't exist, tell me why our lumens exposed to the exterior environment are lined with mucosa whilst our tissue lining non-exterior exposed tissue is serosa. I'll wait for anyone's response.

>>15291925
germs do exist. they just don't cause symptoms

>>15291911
>as if that’s the reason why I criticize it, lol
right, your reason is even more simplistic: people with different political beliefs than you say big words and it makes your head hurt.

>>15291938
yawn

>>15291934
Okay, why do pathogenic bacteria cause damage in the intestines if the immune cells of that area are constantly ligating IL-10 to down regulate inflammation and secIgA's Fc doesn't bind to immune cells. If our immune system isn't causing damage, what is?

>>15291938
>>>/pol/

when are reddit idiots going to stop coming to this board to shill their reddit political agenda?

>>15291945
>FUCK PTN
What am I not getting? It's a pretty based t-shirt.

>>15291942
>pathogenic
>bacteria

no such thing

>>15291955
>Yersinia pestis doesn't cause disseminated intravascular coagulation
You're probably right

>>15291962
lots of things cause blood clotting. none of them are magical invisible bugs.

>>15291925
>>15291909
Germs exist.
Germs are not cause of disease.
Germs eat necrotic tissue.
Germs do not infect.
Germs are trashmen and firement of nature to get rid of poisoned and necrotic tissue.

Germs are not cause of disease.
Germs exist.

>>15291942
>pathogenic bacteria
implication.

Poisoning comes first.
If you are poisoned and necrotic for example because you got yourself sprayed with arsenic or other shit, you fuck up your bodily fluids and then the tissue.
Which leads to cell death.
And like everywhere in nature, if cells die, bacteria will come and deal with the dead tissue.
Easy as that.
Kochs postulate could not be fullfilled.
Therefore corrleation != causation.

> macroscopic organisms can predate on us
> microscopic ones cannot because reasons

>>15292748
Then it might be easy for you to provide causal evidence of natural pathway of transmission which produces the same disease which was present in host organism, which was allegedly caused by an organism

>>15292713
>>15291934
>>15291909

>germs don't cause disease/symptoms
are you fucking joking?

Explain athletes foot fungal infections?

>>15292841
I’m still learning but I would assume it’s because it’s a fungus, which isn’t bacteria or a virus.

>>15292788
>>15292748
germ cultists seething full force today

>>15292788
Then read and react:
>>15292764

>>15292841
>have foot in shoe
>do excessive sports
>wear synthetic socks
>have plastic foam in shoe
>sweat for hours
>friction for hours
>skin tissue dies
>produce acidic environment
>then fungal and bacterial organisms eat dead tissue
>correlation != causation
They are present but not the CAUSE.

>>15292788
This reply doesn't actually say anything. Its trying to imply the incorrect notion that you're "stupid" if you deny germ theory, with no explanation.

>>15293120
Germs CAUSING disease is a claim.
Which never got verified.
Never.
Germs correlate with disease yes.
Becaus they eat necrotic tissue.
They are an effect of disease.
Not the cause.
Read and react to:
>>15292764

When will /sci/'s slippery slope into /x/ end? Flat earthers? Tulpas? Astral projection?

>>15293133
those are too plebeian, phlogiston truthers are the next big thing

>>15293133
flat earthers are glowies.

>>15291909
Explain why do antibiotics work, why coming into contact with viruses (rabies comes to mind) causes infection, why does rabbies vaccine the only cure to rabbies and why countries keep biological weapons (anthrax comes to mind), etc

>>15293607
Why did they lie about nuking japan?

>>15293607
They don't.
It the excipients.
With the so called antibiotics they inject for example:
>saline
>potassium buffered saline
>vitamin c

And aditionaly the active ingredient called:
>antibiotic
Which is just poison but patentable.

And in regular colds, flus and sniffels they don't halp with anything.
Most people are sick, and instead of getting rest, they work until they are so sick they have to go to the doctor.
Then doctor gives pill and sends you to rest.

It's the rest. Not the pill.
The pill only fucks up your kidneys.

Antibiotics don't help more than clean sali ne an potassium or iodine.

>>15293607
>anthrax comes to mind

Fake and gay.
Anthrax is everywhere.
And it does nothing.

Their Anthrax... in 2001, was a meme.
And was actually weaponized spores with micro silicate shrapnel.
They needed to weaponize "anthrax".
Because anthrax is not dangerous.
So they coeted the spores with silicate.

And even this was mostly a meme.
They proll poisoned the diplomats with basic shit like antimony and arsenic dust or dimethylmercury.

>>15293665
Visit tropical areas without them.
>>15293644
They don't and you are a schizo
>>15293674
Alright, so everyone involved in bio weapons program is full of shit
Fine, explain other easily testable and highly dangerous diseases, like rabbies or malaria

>>15293691
>Alright, so everyone involved in bio weapons program is full of shit
Yes. And everyone who realizes that, died mysteriously.
Biowepons is nothing but chemical weaons.
They use arsenic, ddt, agent orange and memes a lot of fear based memes.

>>15293737
Way to address a single point (with questionable evidence) and ignore everything else

>>15293691
>Fine, explain other easily testable and highly dangerous diseases, like rabbies or malaria
If it is so easily testable then provide a scientific causaltiy proven experiment in which a biological agent of your choice was transmitted in the same alleged pathway, and caused the same disease as in the host.
Let me start with muhlaria.
>Tell people there is a dangerous disease
>claim: "trust me everybody has it even though they are not sick, they are just asymptomatic"
>make them take a prophylaxis against it
>prophylaxis causes side effects which resemble the disease you want to protect them from
>claim: "Oh the disease is just to strong for our meds"

Muhlaria is also a disease that has a shitton of "asymptomatic" cases.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2555342/

And also very unspecific range of symptoms:
Signs and symptoms of malaria may include:

Fever
Chills
General feeling of discomfort
Headache
Nausea and vomiting
Diarrhea
Abdominal pain
Muscle or joint pain
Fatigue
Rapid breathing
Rapid heart rate
Cough
And literally having nothing symptom.

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/malaria/symptoms-causes/syc-20351184
> Same symtoms like almost every disease, or poisoning.
> But is mostly asymptomatic.
> But if you have one on these symptoms, trust us, its the muhlaria
> But only if you are in subsaharan africa, othewise it just a cold/flu/whatever
Picrel are the "prophylactic medicines" to """prevent""" malaria...
And it's side effects, express like a "tropical disease" kek.
I hope it makes click sooner or later for anyone.

>>15293691
>rabbies
If it is so easy to show that a "virus" is the cause of rabbies, then provide a causal experiment.

All that exists is stories and memes.
Show me a scientific study in which they find the single agent of cause, the rabies virus, and they put it into a new host and cause the same disease.

A disease pattern such as with rabbies is a meme to make you afraid of nature.
If a animal has a foaming mouth, it is likely poisoned.

http://www.projetobrumadinho.ufmg.br/en/materia/7-sinais-de-intoxicacao

https://www.vets-now.com/2017/07/seasonal-poisons-dogs/

" Exposure to toads occurs between June and August when they are spawning, toads being most active around dawn and dusk. Most toad-related incidents occur in the evening when cats or dogs lick or eat them. This can lead to signs including dribbling, frothing, foaming, oral pain, vomiting, wobbliness, shaking, an increase in body temperature and collapse. In severe cases, convulsions can occur."

So because of fear meme stories a misdiagnosis will happen and "muh rabies kill the animal", when in fact its more likely that it is poisoned.
And the foaming and saliva production is a mechanism to get rid of it.

So please provide a proof that a non Pathognumonic collection of symptons you label as "rabbies" comes in fact from an organism, and when transmitted causes the same disease in a new host.
Must be easy for you, since you said:
>easily testable and highly dangerous
if it's easy to test, then it must mean there is an easy experiment which verified it once and for all that a organism is at fault.

>>15293748
Thank you for demonstrating that you know nothing about how side effects work
There is a test group, some are admitted real shit, some placebo. If anyone in "real" group reports symptoms, ranging from back pains to suicidal thoughts, it's considered a side effect
Malaria was the reason so much of africa remained unexplored, until better medicine was developed

>>15293741
>prove to me that god don't exist
If it is in fact so easy and clear as daylight to you, then you will have no problem to provide evidence of an biological agent capable of replication is alone without any other agent cause for a specific (yet never pathognumonic) disease pattern.

You said it's easy.
You claim "it exists" and it is clear as day that this existing agent is CAUSAL for creating disease.
So until you cannot provide any evidence of that, it is the same as saying:
>god exists, I don't have to prove it
>you have to prove to me it does not exist

>>15293773
>Malaria was the reason so much of africa remained unexplored

Bullshit.
It was because the ottoman empire and germany had a shitton of colonies working togerther with the abos in africa, and they didn't want brits there because they raped the shit out of india and pakistan and thailand.
Then only after WWI when the ottoman empire got destroyed and Constantinople got named Istanbul, only then the brits moved there and started to """"medicate""""" the africans and turned them into cripples.

Also prove that malaria is causal.
It does not make sense.

Mosquitos fly hundrets of kilometers a day.
Yet "muhlaria" only happens where the "colonialist" mass medicate the people.
Neighboring countries don't get it even though they have the same mosquitos.
Then they crumble and cry and say "trust me dude, 80% are infected, they are just asymptomatic"

>>15293691
Why was it so rare in dog wardens?

>>15293796
because it isn't real

>>15293773
>Thank you for demonstrating that you know nothing about how side effects work
>There is a test group, some are admitted real shit, some placebo
Dude they even tell the people that the side effects are so common, that you should rather expirience them here, and take them BEFORE you travel, so you can stop them and have some "reside prophylaxis".

The tropical fever dream shit, is literally just caused by fear controlled retards who take meds, which fuck them up, with the same exact symptoms that the disease has, from which this crap should actually protect you.

https://patient.info/news-and-features/how-likely-are-side-effects-when-taking-malaria-tablets

"The most common side effects with antimalarials affect more than one in 10 people. For instance, with Malarone, these very common side effects can include headache, nausea, abdominal pain and diarrhoea"

"skin rashes and mood changes or abnormal dreams affect between 1% and 10% of patients."

"This is a very commonly used drug and although there are fewer upset stomach incidents, it's also common to experience photosensitivity so care must be taken to avoid sunlight"

>imagine going to africa.
>taking a drug that causes photosensitivity
>absolute kek

"Carroll also advises that drugs should have a trial period if you are worried about side effects, so you can change to another before you go away."

whahahaha.
>placebo
>kek

>>15293796
>>15293805
because the description of rabbies is a non specific one.

If it is indead a specific disease it has specific symptoms, that a characteristic for the disease.
This is called:
>pathognomonic

Yet rabbies has no pathognomonic symptoms.
They are equal to any form of poisoning of an animal.
And I even would admit, that if an animal like a fox ate rat poison like it was used in the early 1900s, then yes it could transmit via bites.
Because back then the Rat poison contained lead arsenate, which is extremly neurotoxic.
And salivation is a mechanism to get rid of it, so lead arsenate will be in the saliva, and if you get bitten by an arsenic salivating animal, you get "injected" with arsenic.
Also they used lead arsenate back then as regular pesticide. Literally poisoning all of nature.
And back then the rabbies craze started.

>>15293777
>Put disease into your body, whether it be a rabby-infested salavia, aids-ridden heroin needle or a monkeypox pustle
>Get the disease
But here is even simpler one.
>Medical science is built on germ theory
>It works
>>15293796
They get vaxinated
>>15293805
Please pet a rabid fox
>>15293789
>Ottomans
>in malaria country
Because niggers have naturally evolved some resistance to it
>>15293821
Yes, because it's a powerful antibiotic. And even then, it's only one in ten

>>15293849
Then why are rabbies cured by a rabbies vax and not anti-arsenic medication? Rabbies has literally been known since roman times

>>15293862
>excuses to not admit the fact that there is no science to prove transmission of a replication competent agent is causasl for disease

>>15293867
>cured by a rabbies vax
it is not.
it stopped to be here, because arsenic based rat poisons and pesticides are banned since 50 years.
Not because of """"vaccination""""

>>15293862
>the only thing in a dogs mouth is this piece of protein i call a "ViRuS"

there's all sorts of shit in a dogs mouth that will cause infection you dumb nigger.

>>15293872
>Get virus inside yourself
>Virus multiplis
>You die
But no proof through
>>15293874
There are plenty of places with rabbies problem.
And you don't prevent it by being vaccinated, after you are infected you are given rabbies vaccine
>>15293879
You can get bitten by regular dogs and be fine

>>15293885
You still avoid to provide a evidence in a scientific manner to show that a replication competent partical is the cause of disease.
If that is the case, than there is unquestinable evidence.
But you just quote and avoid providing evidence.

>waiting for germ cultists to prove any supposed "virus" causes even one symptom

>>15293892
>Have no virus
>be fine
>have virus
>Be not fine
I know, I know, it's some advanced logic

>>15293897
Where is the evidence?
There must be a controlled study or experiment which showed this to you.
Because otherwise all the other "contaminants" and variables of our environment could also be a cause.

So provide a explicit study which take the agent of concern and put it into a host and cause the same disease as in the original host form which they obtained the agent from.

You avoid it by circular reasoning.

Lol anti-vaxx is a real mental disease at this point

>>15293904
Yes you can, just get infected with rabbies, or aids, depending on which you prefer. Take a screening test before and after. Hence you can conclude after virus was added you became sick

>>15291909
lol
https://www.mayoclinicproceedings.org/article/S0025-6196(16)30032-5/fulltext

>>15293916
>bread kills
>99% of people are sick with bread disease
>but they are asymptomatic most of the time
>but if they die it's because of the bread
>I don't need no evidence
>because 99% of people who have died have aten bread once in their life
>so it's basic logic
>I don't need evidence

>>15293922
>he drank a culture of the organism
Show please the specific protocol.
And the contents of the culture and in which medium it was suspended.

Also show replication of this experiment, otherwise its just a fairytail story.

>>15293925
>Rabbies kill
>Has 99.9999whatever kill rate untreated
>When they are infected with rabbies tehy die nearly teh same way
>But it's not rabbies, it's some unspecified toxins

>>15293939
this is what germ cultists actually believe

>>15293939
It's not rabbies that kill it's the vaxx. If you can't prove that all the people that died from so called 'rabbies' didn't receive a vaccine the same month then you cannot prove that rabbies has killed anyone.
You see it's possible that when the rabid dog is biting you he is actually vaccinating you, ahah you didn't think of that didn't you? The so called 'smart science lover' hasn't tested this theory! So because a Pfizer dog or Moderna bat has bitten you and you die it becomes : "Rabbies is a deadly disease". Come on...

>>15293946
Where is he wrong? So far, you have completely failed to provide evidence of your toxin theory and have done nothing to explain the existence of widespread epidemics.
>>15293956
Pretending to be retarded is a bannable offense.

>>15293946
Please kiss a rabid dog.
>>15293956
Those that receive the vax survive, those that don't die. There has literally been a single recorded case of untreated rabbies not ending with death

>>15293922
Ok I did some searching and found it...
>>15293938
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(84)90318-0/fulltext

So he took a cimetidine which causes diareah and is a H2 blocker to specifically induce achlorhydria.
> Achlorhydria is a condition in which the stomach does not produce hydrochloric acid

The proceded to drink a "colony" of the germ suspended in peptone water.
Which is harmfull if swallowed...
Because it is fucking alkaline lithium chloride.
And since the subject before did neutralize its acids, the lithium will not be neutralized, and will cause base overload of the body.

So they poisoned the subject, and attributed the effects to the germ.
Nice.

>>15293989
>projection
Provide science.

>>15293966
>ctrl + f toxin theory
>your post

you're really bad at this

>>15293989
no scientific evidence evidence. so it's a lie.

>>15293966
>widespread epidemics.
are literally a meme.
It's a broadcast phenomeon.
If you force test and create fear, and claim that different diseases and symptoms all of a sudden are all now ony disease, then you can declare a "pandemic".

>1) collect a group of symptoms from various or similar diseases (or ICD-10 codes)
>2) declare the group of collected symptoms now are a new Disease
>3) deploy a scare campaign and panic and make sure that [insert new disease] is diagnose as often as possible, so that people with one or more symptoms can be declared as "infected"
>4) include a asymptomatic form of disease, and make sure it gets diagnosed
>5) declare pandemic based on epidemiological/ statistical increase of diagnosis [insert new Disease or ICD-10 code]
>6) use pandemic to increase regulatory power, thin out population and force product on them
>7) after product is deployed revise what you told on step 2) and say symptoms are now different diseases and should be diagnosed as such
>8) declare pandemic is over based on epkdemiolical/statistical decrease of diagnosis with [insert new disease or ICD-10 Code]

Diseases are started and ended with the strike of a pen.
>picrel

>>15294008
>Literal undisputed facts are projections
>>15294013
>Get infected with rabbies
>Treated with vax survive, not treated die
What other evidence do you need you subhuman

>>15294034
>What other evidence do you need
any evidence would be fine.
You just tell stories.

>>15294040
It's not stories it's literal facts

>>15294045
then there must be some scientific source for that.
Like an experiment, in which they took a replication competent agent, and inserted it into a different host and caused the same disease, to 100% exclude its not just poisoning or some other biochemical disorder, caused by environmental factors.
So literally excluded.
So they just took the specific particle without anything else and irefutebly proved that this particle alone is cause of the disease.

>>15294049
That is what happened every time somone was infected by a rabid animal
If I say sand gets wet when you pour water on it would you want a peer-reviewed study on the topic as well you dumb nigger?

>>15294070
You cannot see the agent.
The agent is not exclusivly in the saliva.
There are billions of other organisms, cells and chemicals in saliva.
You cannot say "only this one thing, and nothing else" cause disease is retarded, especcially when you cannot isolate it.
So you have to isolate it, and put it in some host exclusivly to say it is the cause of disease.

Also you did not even put forward a case report or whatever that showed that a specific disease was transmitted.
So someone got bitten and then what?
Provide a case report and a study which showed the specific agent is the cause, everything else is just scare stories.

>>15294070
>That is what happened every time somone was infected by a rabid animal

source?

>>15294078
You can have a dog without rabies bite you and you'll be fine
If a dog with rabbies bites you you'll die
Only one factor was changed and hence it's teh cause
Do you want me to post a news story about a man being bitten by a rabid dog or something?

>>15294084
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabies
But that's an exercise in futility since you will disregard it anyway
You'd scream for a source even if I said that water is wet

>>15294092
which reference proves rabies causes a symptom?

So how does sickness spread from person to person?

>>15294098
>No rabbies, no symptoms
>Rabbie symptoms
Gee, idk

>>15294106
it doesn't

>>15294126
both times I had covid the people living with me had covid. So why did I get it?

>>15294106
it doesn't.
Sometimes people get sick at the same time.
Best example here is scurvy.
For centuries people thought there is some "disease in the air of the sea"
Or that some people on the ship infected everyone and the blame game started.
Everyone on the ship got sick.
>it was vitamin c deficiency

Does it transmit or are people exposed to the same conditions?
And why does it not spread sometimes?
For example with the rosenau experiments during the spanish flu.
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/article-abstract/221687
They were unable to get anyone infected with the flu.
Why?
How they injected saliva of sick peole.
Sprayed it in eyes and nose.
Made them breath the air of sick people through muzzles.
Nobody go sick.
How?
why?
why didn't it transmit when specifically tested for it?

>>15294132
Fuck an aids ridden hooker then you retard

>>15294130
no one has ever had covid. covid does not exist.

>>15291934
Please refute the known pathogenesis of cholera and subsequent profuse watery diarrhea caused by said bacterial toxin. I'll be waiting.

>>15294135
>believes in AIDS

keep buying that PrEP faggot. dilate

>>15294150
>People just wither away for no fucking reason
Again, if viruses are fake, play with a rabid dog and stick used heroin needles into your arm
Since you are such a faggot have sex with a monkeypox ridden faggot

>>15294147
>known pathogenesis of cholera

source?

>>15294150
>Get fucked in the ass
>Years later your CD4+ levels are abysmal
>Get tuberculosis
Must have been magic!

>>15294157
>i kno u r but wut m i

stay classy, virocucks

>>15294156
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23651092/
I'll be waiting for your source!

>>15294163
>Stopped trying to engage
This is flerf tier

>>15294158
>Must have been magic invisible bugs!

ftfy

>>15294147
Absolute bullshit

>>15294165
Not a study but a interpretation of memes.

Picrel is a attempt at a cholera "transmission" experiment.
All of these experiments, required the volunteers to go through fasting.
Were administered Tetracycline:
https://medlineplus.gov/druginfo/meds/a682098.html

Which causes diarrhea

And the culture was buffered with Sorensen’s phosphate buffer:
http://cshprotocols.cshlp.org/content/2010/10/pdb.rec12327.full?text_only=true
Which contains:
sodium phosphates
Which is typically used to induce, you guessed it, diarrhea:
https://medlineplus.gov/druginfo/meds/a609019.html

And then they concluded "indeed the symptoms were caused by bacillus and it Cholera because of symptoms which could also only be produced when giving people shit that makes them shit".

It is so hilarious.

>>15294165
>ctrl + f methodology
>not found

wtf i love pharma now

>>15294176
>Cholera toxin reduces uptake of sodium and induces release of chloride in GI tract, causing profuse watery diarrhea
Thanks for proving that cholera is the cause!

>>15294180
Where's the source in this post? I'm still waiting.

>>15294185
dude they were unable to infect the people with cholera...
so they had to poison them first to elicit diarrhea.
Because in other experiments literally nothing happened, when drinking choleric water.

>>15294180
>>15294188
You retard posted a review build on the premise that cholera bacillus causes diarrhea.
But no experiment could show that...
except when they give people meda that cause diarrhea.
Read:
>>15294176

>>15294192
>He's too stupid to understand that only toxpositive V. cholerae cause choleric diarrhea
>He doesn't know about lysogenic conversion in cholera populations
>He knows actually know any medical microbiology

>>15294198
memes
based on nothing.
It's a meme.

>>15294198
>toxpositive V. cholerae cause choleric diarrhea

source?

>>15294200
Nice damage control? Learn medical microbiology and then come back to this containment thread.

>>15294203
Source that they don't?

>>15294206
>Learn medical microbiology
has nothing to do with the simple request that I asked for on multiple occasions:

>>15293872
>>15292764
>>15294049
>An experiment, in which they took a replication competent agent, and inserted it into a different host and caused the same disease, to 100% exclude its not just poisoning or some other biochemical disorder, caused by environmental factors.
So literally excluded.

Easy.
But these show nothing.
So they aditionally have to poison the subject like here:
>>15293995
and here
>>15294176
And then attribute the poisoning symptoms to the bacteria in question.
But for some reason without this wierd intervention, the bacteria alone does not cause any symptom.

>>15294212
>god exists, I don't have to prove it
>you have to prove to me it does not exist

reread:
>>15293777

>>15293995
>Talking about cholera toxin
>Posts article about campylobacter serology
?????????????

>>15294223
Post proof it doesn't

>>15294229
I just wanted to mention that they did the same with the campylobacter as with cholera.
Poison the subject.
For cholera it is here:
>>15294176

>>15294232
babby's first burden of proof

>>15294235
Laughable joke of an experiment. Can you post something where the experimenters have a proper basis of knowledge in medical micro? Thanks.

>>15294242
Prove that it doesn't. You'll never, ever post it and just keep making damage control posts. Frame that L :)

>>15291909
Redpill: there are little germy wermies everywhere. Some of them make you sick, but most of them just sit around eating eachother and shitting themselves. It's a jungle down there. You can buy a microscope and see them for yourself.

>>15294252
NOOOOO YOU HAVE TO PROVE TO ME THAT THEY MAKE YOU SICK BUT DON'T ASK ME TO PROVE THAT THEY DON'T

>people unironically asking for proof of a negative on /sci/

are we being raided?

>people unironically asking for proof then damage controlling when asked the same thing
Never change, reddit!

>>15294253
you cannot prove a negative claim.
>god exists
>and this is fact and I don't need proof
>until you prove to me that god does not exist

>germ cause disease
>and this is fact and I don't need proof
>until you prove to me that germ does not cause disease

Germ causes disease is a positive claim. which must be easy to prove.
So follow the requests.
Read and react:
>>15292764
>>15293872
>>15292764
>>15294049

If germs dont make people get sick?

>>15294269
Prove that they don't

There are many thousands of published studies where germs are introduced to animals such as rats, giving them diseases. Many include control groups which are not infected. What's your criticism of such studies?

>>15294270
Been asking people to provide this information but they just call it proving a negative. They'll never post information supporting their claims that there's a different cause of disease symptoms other than the microbes that "supposedly" cause them.

>>15294274
Scientific experiment with really simple procedure, a dimwit like you can even understand.
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/article-abstract/221687
During the spanish flu, they just took over 100 soldiers who were healthy.
And did the following.

They forced them to:
> drink the spit and snot of almost dying sick from spanish flu patient
> get the spit and snot sprayed into eyed and nose
> get the blood injected
> get a snorkel mouth to mouth from soldier to sick patient
> and were forced for 10 minutes to breathe the exhaused air of the sick patient

NONE not a single soldier got sick.
How is this possible?

>>15294277
I unironically dont care about germs i just want to know what a person that says that germs dont cause diseases think about well what make people ill on first place

>>15294276
then post one.
Post your favourite one.

>>15294282
maybe spraying them down with lead arsenate, DDT and paris green?

>>15294278
>How is this possible?

disease doesn't work the way the sheeple think it does

Germ theory is heccin fake! Yuo can never know ANYTHING for sure, except CONSCIOUSNESS, which I FUCKING LOVE! Mind over matter! The DMT machine elves told me so!
t. /sci/dealist

>>15294278
I can guarantee you they had previously been around sick soldiers and had proper adaptive responses mount quickly, alongside proper interferon alpha and beta release to check infection. I suggest you educate yourself on immunology before asking such an elementary question in the future :)

>>15294284
I assume you've actually read some studies of that kind, since you feel you're in a position to debunk the entirety of germ theory. So why don't you post one? Perhaps your least favourite one.

>>15294287
But people have been getting sick since waaaaay before those things even existed

>>15294318
Proof?

>>15294318
>metabolic acidosis
>mineral deficiency
>starvation
>poisoning existed since... always?!

>>15294278
has this study ever been repeated?

>>15294327
Uh yeah, drinking bleach can make you sick too. What the fuck were you thinking posting this?

>>15294318
Also every type of poisoning causes """flu like symptoms"""
>metal mume fever
>bottle flu (alcohol flu)
>suggar overload
>stress metabolites such as lactic acids and breadown of cortisol causes acidosis which can ead to respiratory asicodis.

>>15294318
Oh yeah, and don't forget low temperatures.
They cause illness too.
Cold.
You know.
And the common practice since the 1500s to prescribe mercury as medicine agains everything...

>other things cause illnesses alongside microbial pathogens
>That must mean microbes don't cause illnesses
Lol, lmao even

>>15294388
>microbial
>pathogens

pick 1

>>15291909
coronavirus never existed, it was a hoax created by ZOG as a means of justifying further crimes which they wouldn't have been able to otherwise pull off. democracies are open to exploitation because the dumbest 51% of the population rules over the most intelligent 49%.

>>15294334
The study didn't even have proper controls, so it was likely disregarded even in its time.

>>15294334
Yes:
https://www.jstor.org/stable/4574984

In this journal are multiple attempts to transmit influenza by experiment.
Yet with no success.

Here they walkthrough every attempted transmission experiment until they were unrepeatable because of """ethics"""
https://odysee.com/@DrAndrewKaufman:f/The_End_of_Germ_Theory_by_Spacebusters:b

>>15294598
Elaborate on the controls here.
Why type of control would you have neede here?

Should they have took soldiers and didn't expose them?
And just spray saline in eyes and noses and throat, breathe the breath of a healthy person?
That would be the control group.

Same excat procedure just without sick people.
But what would have helped that?

>>15294388
There are many things rhat cause problems.
Microbes exist.
But are they the cause?
We cannot know because of the buckload of variables presented.

So to verify that, and especcially that these are the mayor factor of disease, you need to isolate them.
Purify them...
And demonstrate that these alone cause disease.
This has never been done.
Therefore not proven.
Therefore it is a meme.

>>15295024
>Why type of control would you have neede here?
A population without prior close exposure to the pathogen is necessary or the results won't have any merit. If everyone is already immune from exposure then further exposure to the same pathogen generally won't make them sick again.

>>15295034
>immune from exposure
Dude this is a implication which requires the meme of "viruses and bacteria beeng the cause of all evil" to be true.
You are shifting now goalposts.
"Yes nobody got sick, but I specualate they were immune!!"

Then come forward and present a experiment with successfull infection.
If you can't than your whole theory and argumentation is built on memes, and made up stories which are never verified.

It's memes.
You cannot immune against something, that does not exist or does not cause disease in the first place.

>>15295034
Ok is then there anywhere an scientific experiment which proves your point, by fulfilling all your requsted criteria?

>>15294318
ICD-10 code E87.2 for Acidosis is a medical classification as listed by WHO.

Respiratory Acidosis E87.29

J96.02, Acute Respiratory Failure with Hypercapnia

Renal tubular acidosis (RTA) occurs when the kidneys do not remove acids from the blood into the urine as they should.

Case report:
https://www.immunopaedia.org.za/clinical-cases/drug-response/25-year-old-female-presents-with-persistent-flu-like-symptoms/

>be trivialy poisoned
>by either
>environment
>acidosis due to sugar and alcohol
>stress and decomposition products of stress hormones
>necrotic tissue because cold slows metabolism, and then tissue dies, and decomposition process produces toxins
>metabolic acidosis which can lead to respiratory acidosis because of trivially poisoning caused by things I mentioned before
>dead cells get dissolved melted away by fever
>fever increases activity of white blood cells
>white blood cells decompose tissue and poisons
>excreted via multiple pathways
>shit piss snot mucus

Nearly all poisoning, may it be acidosis by yourself of by external influences.
May it be metal fume fever.
May it be chlorine poisoning or funghi poisoning.
All of these things have "flu like symptoms".
Literally.
From food poisoning to acidosis to sepsis.
All poisoning appear to be """"flu like"""".

Or do they cover up "poisoning"?

the collection of symptoms is the "cleansing" of whatever poisons you.

If everything is flu like, then... what is a "flu"?

What do you think of Purdey's research on prion diseases?

>>15295333
>prion diseases
meme
It's caused by neurotoxic pesticides specificly put on cows.
Such as BHC (benzene hexachloride).

They literally rubbed it on cows.
Then cows developed encephalitis.
Then encephalopathy.

It has been withdrawn.
https://www.jstor.org/stable/43298474

http://www.pic.int/Portals/5/DGDS/DGD_HCH_EN.pdf

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0306987796900225?via%3Dihub

"lipophilic
formulations of organophosphate insecticide (containing phthalimide) applied exclusively in
the UK during the 1980s/early 1990s was the primary trigger that initiated the UK's bovine
spongioform encephalopathy epidemic"

The "prion protein" is produced by giving animals neurotoxins.
And the prion protein is not capable of "spread".
It's an effect of

>>15295362
Yes, so have you read purdeys report?

>>15294292
kek too accurate

>>15294292
>The DMT machine elves told me so!
they be demons lad, they'll take over your soul

>>15295391
>>15295387
>Do you see that guy? He actually reads the Method section and requires proof!
>Eww, no way! What a fucking creep!
>what a loser
>High IQchads only require to read headline and jump to conclusion
>thehehe, methods
>sounds like methodist church
>sounds christian
>non-athiest
>yuck
>ew so low IQ

>>15295391
>>15295387
>proof for a thing
>whahaha ?! Did he never heard of a THOGHT experiment
>lol, lmao even
>demands proof
>that guy must be high or something
>DMT and gangbanged by machine elves hahaha
>such an loser, just don't believe the thought model but demands them beeing verified by the scientific method
>absolute kindergarden
>I mean hellooooo!? we have 2023!
>point and declare
>and use just logic....
>prooof
>"Haaalp I need prooooof"
>hahahah

>>15291909
I have homework for you. Doing your own research if you will.

> Buy some sort of blood agar plates
> Swab your skin and hair, inoculate onto plates
> Isolate any colonies with complete clearing of the agar
> Keep isolating until you obtain a pure culture
> Observe the pure culture via microscopy. A cheap microscope will do. This is to ensure that what you have is indeed a bacterium. It will probably be round a clump together like a bundle of grapes
> Prick each of your fingers and toes
> Inoculate pure culture into each of pricks
> Record results

>>15295420
>prick in finger
>insert moldy unpure sample of nectrotic medium with
>multiple bacteria
>mold
>funghi and especcially the fungal metabolite products (Mycotoxins)
>don't purify the sample
>don't get the bacteria of concern out
>put all of it, without purification
>insert it on the skin
>extrapolate from skin reaction after invasive traetment
>that the sniffels must be caused by a single type of a specific germ that was transmitted by sneezing on you

How about isolating the one bacteria of concern purifying it with density gradient centrifugation
suspending it in saline
filtering everything else out.
And then eating it or spraying it in nose?
Which is the traditional route of "infection".
By droplets suspended in the air and then getting in your respiratory system.

>>15295420
>Buy some sort of blood agar plates
They're all tainted with vaccine. Pfizer and Moderna are in bed with all the blood agar plates providers. It has never been proven that what I am saying is not true so it's obviously true, otherwise why wouldn't ''''they'''' bring evidence against it?

looks like all the germs cult kiddies ran away. good work, men

>>15295463
All anit-vaxx are paid by the Kremlin. Can you bring proof that it's not true? No? So it is the truth, you are paid by the Kremlin.

>>15295477
>They're all tainted with vaccine. Pfizer and Moderna are in bed with all the blood agar plates providers.
absolute retarded argument.

Petri dishes are just dead medium.
Thats it.
Bacteria and funghi feed on dead stuff.
And produce toxins as metabolite.
But not on living organisms.
If you take only the bacteria that is for example on corpses, they die and disappear on healthy living tissue.
But if you are necrotic, they feed on nectroctic tissue.

And produce:
>Atropin
>Cadaverine
>Lysin
>Neurin
>(+)-Muscarin (same poison as in Amanita muscaria, commonly known as the fly agaric or fly amanita)

Etc.
Necrotic toxins are toxic. Yes.
And producing bacteria on dead tissue, will result in producing these toxins.
But also will promote propagation of bacteria and funghi.
So you have to isolate those bacteria and insert them as described here:
>>15295463
To verify that the bacteria is the cause of disease, and are replication competent in a healthy beeing.

Bacteria and funghi are very real.
And they produce toxins.
If controlled, we call it fermentation.
Alcohol is a product of such an process.
If you are alcohol poisoned you would never say "a bacterium did this to me".

>>15295463
You see, I thought about asking him to do just a random ass swabbing, but this way OP can put his rigorous intellect to good use. We also don't need to demonstrate a typical infection route. Just identify a causal link between a bacterium and an illness.

Well, in this case, illness is an understatement, but the experiment will benefit society with either outcome.

>>15295477
Ah yes, very true.
OP should make his own petri dishes and harvest the blood + sterilize it all himself. Or have it done by a trusted friend.

>>15295486
Yes, you got us. You better keep to your retard cult of anti-germ theory and never take antibiotics, antivirals, antifungals, or antiparasitic drugs ever, no matter how bad your symptoms get. I'll hold you to that.

>>15295885
Yes

>>15295885
>toxic pharma chems are good cuz i sed so!

get help, junkie

>>15295374
Aperently.
Names are sound and smoke.
I read a lot of all alleged contractable, transmissable and deadly diseases and the wierd coincidences that simulatously occured with chemicals or memes beeing spread.

Everything that is a invisible boogeyman is fake.
Alk diseases are man made, caused by poisons or are the effect of deficiency.

Man made includes memes, such as fear.
Virology is esotheric.
And medicine is alchemy.
Medicine is all about "how can we create a patentable melecule and sell it to people"

>>15296126
Prove that they aren't.

>>15294176
>>15294185
>>15294220
>>15294195
>>15294235
Why couldn't they just do this experiment by infecting mice instead?

>>15293665
So the hole in your argument can only be filled with a global conspiracy. You lose QED.

>>15296709
>can only be filled with a global conspiracy

No global conspiracy is required.
Just a new protocol for treatments.
You just need the Oversight of any organisation to be corrupt then it will be in a protol.
And everyone else just follows the protocol.

Soientists and the medical profession look only for titles not for quality of a study.
And than they obey and idolworship.
They would never question the protocol given to them.
And those who do, will be ostrezised and not because they conspire, but because they identify with their idols and the religion of science, once a commitment to a drug is there, they do not revert.
For several reasons.

You should look up what doctors did to protect Thalidomide and Mercury medicine.

Also check out The Blood and Its Third Element by Antoine Bechamp

>>15296126
No one is denying that antimicrobial drugs come with the possibility of bad side effect, but the whole point of prescribing then is that the benefits outweigh these side effects.

>>15296340
Post proof

>>15297355
Of what?

>>15297361
>Everything that is a invisible boogeyman is fake. Alk diseases are man made, caused by poisons or are the effect of deficiency
Post proof

>>15297350
>but the whole point of prescribing then is that the benefits outweigh these side effects

Antibiotics fight the symptom.
And do not help with the underlying condition.

The reason why antibiotics appear to work in the case of "colds" or "sniffels" is, that people are sick, go sick to work, don't rest and accept their limits.
They wait until it is so bad, that they go to the doctor.
Then the doc will tell them: "get rest, drink a lot and take this pill".

The in the first time of the illness the patients, gets some rest, drinks a lot of tea AND takes the pill.

Not before. It is quasi a MUST socially and psychologially in our modern world: "you are only sick enough to rest and heal, if a doc gives you a pill"

And with skin issues and wounds... normalizing the PH of the problematic skin area with non invasive means will normalize the inflamation aswell.
The whole thing with "antibiotics healed all of a sudden everyone" was just:
>before they gave sick people icebaths, gave them opium, laudanum, dimethyl ether, cocaine, heroin, chloroform, morphine, amphetamines, electroshock therapy, arsenicals (Salvarsan) and mercury chloride
https://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/features/look-back-old-time-medicines

Then they stopped all that and replaced all of it with a less toxic pill made from residue of color production companies

So first they poisones people and experimented with various wierd invasive therapies.
Then they replaced it with a way less invasive option.

The fairytail always sticks with: "antibiotics saved everyone".
When in fact its: "not poisoning the sick saved them".

>>15297364
here:
>>15295362
>>15295179
>>15295012
>>15294278
>>15294287
>>15294341
>>15294348
>>15297391

>>15295489
>. Can you bring proof that it's not true?
This is the absolute state of /sci

>>15292764
>cholera toxin opens chloride channels which cause water to flood the intestinal lumen
>you get watery diarrhea when you get cholera
seems pretty cause-and-effectual to me

>>15297863
could you provide a clear experiment in which:
>cholera is isolated
>and suspended in a non toxic medium (such saline)
>then subject drinks it
>then subject gets the symptoms which resemble so called "cholera"

All experiments inlcude:
>subject must drink antacids
>subject must take strong antibiotic which causes diarrhea (Tetracycline)
>subject must drink cholera suspended in wierd concoction such as peptone water or phosphate buffered solution
>experiment has no control group to verify that the procedure of the experiment alone does not cause the symptoms:
>the administration of antacids, antibiotics and phosphate buffered solution

>>15296340
So read purdey's research on bse in cattle and organophosphate insecticides. The guy died suspiciously while trying to expose it.

>>15297886
Okay why does botulism make people sick

>>15300777
"Botulinum toxin acts by binding presynaptically to high-affinity recognition sites on the cholinergic nerve terminals and decreasing the release of acetylcholine, causing a neuromuscular blocking effect"

>>15297797
>Provide proof because I think you're wrong
>But don't ask me to provide proof of why I think you're wrong
Fucking retard. You have to see why you're retarded, right? You just have to.

>>15297394
Not proof at all. Try again after learning basic medical microbiology and immunology.

>>15300779
We know for a fact that the main source of the toxin are made by clostridium botulinum bacteria and that the main way the toxin enters the body is through the bacterial infection. Shitting out the toxins is major way bacteria harm you. QED, you lose.

>>15300794
??? Calm down you utter sperg. Of course C. botulinum produces the toxin. I'm a fucking MD student, of course I know that germ theory is true.

>>15300811
Sorry, I mistook you for the guy you tried to correct.

>>15300811
>C. botulinum

And can you deliberatly infect someone with C. Botolinum?
Or is there a precondition required?
Like described here:
>>15295501

>>15300849
Yes actually, you can. You can feed person a food with C. Botolinum and the person will inevitably get sick.

>>15291909
It's called germ theory.

A THEORY on germs.

Why are you siderailing botulism that doesn't have any relevance to the main disagreement with germ theory it all?

>>15300871
Because botulism is the most obvious demonstration of the bacteria causing an illness. It has:
>clear mechanism of harm (bacteria produce the toxin, which spreads around the body by blood)
>clear mechanism of infection - eating food with bacteria breeding inside causes botulism
>lack of secondary explanations - botulism cannot be explained as lack of nutrients, stress, exhaustion or medicine poisoning
Botulism disproves your main argument - that the bacteria don't cause the diseases

>>15300887
Ok can you do it now for Influenza and measels.

>>15300956
Nice attempt to move the goalposts, but I'll humour it.
>Measles
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(10)62352-5/fulltext
>Influenza
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7091034/

>>15300961
Those are not expermints which show a unifrom identified particle that is given to hast caused the specific disease.

>>15300853
But since you want to talk about botulism.
Botulism is neurological dis-ease.

Mostly occuring in infants.
Also called the "floppy baby syndrome".
How is it diagnosed?
By baby beeing floppy and unable to open eyes.
Is there a test that is done? No.
What also hapens in infants between 0-1year.
They get injected with neurotoxins.
Called "Aluminium hydroxade" and "aluminium phosphate".

With vaccines. Which all have in their adverse events stated "neurological disease", "apathy", "myelitis", "encephalitis".

But since vaccines are the holy grail....
And toxins are not toxic anymore if put them in vaccines...
"Must be... botulism, transverse mylitis, flacid myelitis, encephalitis, gullian barre syndrome".

Since you appear as an expert on botulism, please provide a study and scientific experiment. In which they isolated the bacteria in question, and gave it to a healthy host and cause the same specific disease.

Otherwise this is just memes and excuses.

This has got to be bait, right? I mean there’s just no way…

>>15301001
You you moron, botulism is caused by one specific toxin that affects specific neural channels. We have isolated that toxin. And what creates that toxin? One specific type of bacteria. It's literally an effect of the bacterial toxin and we literally found these bacteria shitting these toxins in patients.
>infants
Lol, we have tests of stool mater confirming that the symptoms are caused by botulism. You know why doctors first check the symptoms, then start the treatment and then check out biomarkers? Because botulism fucking kills you and does it fast.
>infecting people with botulism
Fuck yourself. We know that the botulism is caused by the toxin produced by the bacteria. We literally weaponised it already once. Nobody is moronic enough to infect a living human with botulism, especially since we already know that it's caused by toxins produced by the bacteria. As for the experiment:
>https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5434488/

I wonder why everyone avoides to provide any evidence for a simple question.
It's always just some interpretation and speculation.

>bacteria don’t affect me!
You’ve got mail

>>15301023
Exactly what animal models. Don't ever talk to retards that screech about proof until it's through human experimentation
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC551196/

>>15301028
Bacillus anthracis is based. Brilliant anti-phagocytic strategy to have a capsule made from polypeptides instead of polysaccharides.

>>15301041
Lol, you aren't worth talking to moron.

>>15301027
Yeah, also wondering why no one can provide actual evidence that microbes don't cause disease either.

>>15301023
Why don't you post the experiment?

Why do you post a history of "botolism".
You could have just posted the experiment, which was sadly the only that has been done to "proof" that botolism kills and the bacteria is cause of the disease.

But there is nothing but:
"van Ermengem found that C. botulinum was not generally pathogenic."

>but the poisooons
They referenced it, but did not quote the exact experiment:

"Kerner performed various chemical reactions with the aqueous extracts from the sausages (e.g., with silver nitrate, mercuric chloride, and ferric chloride). When Kerner had produced enough toxic extract from sausages he mixed it with honey and fed it to mammals, birds, frogs, flies, locusts, and snails. He recorded experiments with 12 cats, 4 rabbits, 4 ravens, 2 owls, 2 sparrows, 3 robins, 1 pigeon, and 1 titmouse."

> doi:10.1212/WNL.53.8.1850

So this Kerner took sausages.
Added: mercury, silver nitrate and ferric chloride.
And fed it to animals.
When animals sick, botolism is proven.
This is your best proof?

>>15301073
Prove it doesn't

>>15301041
Dude.
They literally gave the mother rats in the experiment group ketamin hydrochloride...

And then ignored it for the rest of the experiment.

>>15301090
And? Prove that compound specifically and exactly causes botulism symptoms

>>15301069
No evidence is necessary for a negative, fool.

>>15301109
When arguing against the prevailing consensus that has been proven time and again via experimentation and practical application, you have to prove that the current main idea doesn't work. Burden of proof is on you.

>>15301117
>prevailing consensus
Means nothing.
>proven time and again via experimentation

Show the experiment which takes the suspected isolated agent of cause, and gave them to a healthy host, without adding poisons, amphetamines or injecting shit direclty in the brain.

Show that the agent of cause, ioslated, given via the means of suspected transmission: ingestion or noninvasive inhalation* and cause the specific disease.

*meaning not spraying mililiters of fluids direclty via intubation into the lungs

>>15301138
There, Nobel Prize for discovery of bacterial cause of stomach ulcers.
>https://www.nobelprize.org/prizes/medicine/2005/7693-the-nobel-prize-in-physiology-or-medicine-2005-2005-6/
The medium was a broth mixed in with bacteria, drunk via mouth. Does this satisfy you or are you going to keep on being obstinate little fucker?

>>15294276
Okay, post a study that you personally find convincing.

>>15301096
Ok.
It's easy.
Read the experiment again.

Mothers ONLY had "some ranges of botolism like disease 3 days after getting anesthesized with ketamin hydrochloride"

But none of the infants got sick even though they found the toxin in their stomach.

So i don't know.
Nobody got sick except ketamin moms.
But infants were fine.
But had the toxin in the belly.

What do you want exaclty?

You posted this. They could only measure the toxin. But nothing happes.
Except to the drugged moms...
Why?
What does this tell you?

They love to kill animals and do senseless experiments.

>>15301151
You do never post the primary source which sho the methology.
To that topic I specifically posted it here:
>>15293995

Good thread. I always get health advice from 4chan. It's honestly the last place for good information.

so what do anti germers think the immune system does?

>>15301157
Why are you too stupid to believe that the immune system exists?

>>15301399
Nooooo germs either give you disease or they don't, you didn't evolve with a mechanism to innately and adaptively fight them so if you don't present with symptoms with pathogenic microbes in your body they don't cause disease, also what the fuck is latency? I'm too retarded to have studied medical microbiology or immunology before taking a stance on germ theory.

Geert Hamer's brain scans

>>15293769
>Show me a scientific study in which they find the single agent of cause, the rabies virus, and they put it into a new host and cause the same disease.

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmoa043018

>>15301991
>do highly i vasive procedure
>stitch organs together
>cut out organs
>patients get sick
>must be a virs

Where is the single agent of cause?

>>15302098
The microbe is the agent. Nice cherry picking though.

>>15302127
Not cherrypicking.
There is no proof that it is the cause.

The donor was a junkie:
"On admission, a urine toxicology screen was positive for cocaine and marijuana, and computed tomography of the brain demonstrated a subarachnoid hemorrhage"

You what this is, consealing and hiding a hospitals mistake and greed, hat they took organs from a druggie.
And implanted his organs, for sweet sweet profits.

But when the resciepients died, they looked for excuses.
And despite no test for any bacteria or virus was positive in the donor...
Just because.
Let me quote:
"During contact investigations conducted after the rabies diagnoses were made, friends of the donor indicated he had reported being bitten by a bat."

So...
You tell me.
That death after organ transplantation of a druggie, is for sure rabies.

And you posted this... after I asked for a isolated pure agent of cause, without fucked up experimental contaminations such as organ transplantation of a druggie or mercury or other shit.

Just.
>get sample of sick
>isolate suspected agent of cause
>suspend in nontoxic medium
>spray medium in nose and on food of a new host
>host gets sick with the same exact disease.

It's so easy, yet you bring forward such an abigous case as "clear evidence"

>>15301405
>believe

>>15301405
>conceding it's about belief

The ABSOLUTE state...

>>15301399

Nothing. Just as nothing else "does" anything. Note how the idea of the "immune system" is contingent on Symbol, i.e. Continental obscurantism.

Looks like this brainlet board is finally starting to realize that viruses are fake and gay. Nice.

>>15302355
How can that be the case when I “did” your mom last night?

>>15302158
Nta, but the problem with your entire argument is that we cannot ethically inject people with any of the actually highly transmissible and dangerous viruses/bacteria because it would kill or disable them. I agree with the anon above that something like the flu is massively overblown, and a lot of times the ‘flu’ is either environmental or nutritional issues. But for example, once rabies symptoms present, there’s over a 99% mortality rate. I think there was a single woman they managed to save by medically inducing a coma, but she ended up with severe brain damage. We can’t easily control for a lot of variables or get robust studies because what healthy group of people would consent to being injected/exposed to rabies, aids, smallpox, the plague, or botulism? Further, with something like rabies, there’s a long reaching history that existed before the advent of vaccines. Tuberculosis as well, which they just referred to as ‘consumption’. It killed Keats in the early 1800s in his late teens or early 20s, don’t remember exactly.

>>15303246
Beyond this, a lot of transmissible diseases don’t service long outside their host. I know I’m relying a lot on rabies, but it’s I think it’s a good example. It cannot survive open air and dies once the saliva of the infected animal dries. So a study of transmissibility would require a rabid animal, where you had a randomized group of people to willingly ingest/be injected with the saliva of that animal directly. And let’s say germ theory holds true, for the sake of argument. If so, those people would all die. Can you imagine the pushback? A large sample size of healthy people just agreeing to the study and then dying horribly. It just isn’t possible. Maybe if you could entice them with large monetary reward, but at that point you open the floodgates to all kinds of completely unbarred human experimentation/organ harvesting. you could maybe get a sample of people who had terminal illnesses, but then those illnesses would confound the study.

>>15303267
So sure, I agree the data to support germ theory is weak. But mortality rates, especially among children, has dropped precipitously since the advent of antibiotics and vaccination. Even if germs as a source of illness is overblown, it just seems too much of a coincidence by examining life expectancy and mortality at large for germ theory to not hold largely true.

>>15303267
>It cannot survive open air and dies once the saliva of the infected animal dries.
Viruses aren't alive. They don't "die".

>>15303274
>. But mortality rates, especially among children, has dropped precipitously since the advent of antibiotics and vaccination

No they just stopped with:
>wars
>givin children arenicals, cocaine, opium ice baths, shaving of their pox and pimples
>stopped child labour
>stopped spraying them down with DDT, lead arsenate and Paris green.

They stopped with acute toxic shit.
Yes.
During wartime and famines children die.
Yes.

See:
>>15297391
>>15294348
>>15293849
>before they gave sick people icebaths, gave them opium, laudanum, dimethyl ether, cocaine, heroin, chloroform, morphine, amphetamines, electroshock therapy, arsenicals (Salvarsan) and mercury chloride
https://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/features/look-back-old-time-medicines

Then they stopped all that.
And all of a sudden...
People did not die.
Wierd.
>picrel

>>15303293
>>15303278
However you want to phrase it, exposure to the dried saliva does not transmit the illness. “Die” is just colloquial. >>15303293
You didn’t acknowledge at all that it is nigh impossible to produce the kind of experiments and data you’re asking for.
Also, lead arsenate was not used widely as an insecticide until the late 1800s, and references to the symptom cluster of rabies begin in BCE.

>>15303390
>it is nigh impossible to produce the kind of experiments and data you’re asking for.
are you talking specifically about rabies?

>>15303397
Any highly transmissable/important disease. Again, I am also critical of germ theory in regards to minor illnesses. People have shitty environments, nutrition, and lots of suicides get written off as “illness”. But I don’t dismiss the idea of any microbe directly causing illness and being transmissable.

>>15303390
>nigh impossible to produce the kind of experiments and data you’re asking for.

Yet world organisations, srart to create rules to:
>Quarantine you
>Kill farm animals as prophylaxis
>force medication on people

This is a method to herd the human cattle.

If it is all so "yeah its hard to show" then people should not:
>destroy economy
>ostracize doctors

This germ shit, is a danger for the people.
And an amazing tool, to justify killing people with dangerpus meds and procedures.
This pandemic they did it again.
Killed people:
>gave them cocktails of antimalarials and sedatives
>remdesivir
>killed them with breathing machines
>muh covid was the killer

>>15303504
>But I don’t dismiss the idea of any microbe directly causing illness and being transmissable.

>but I want to belieeeeve

>>15303390
>Also, lead arsenate was not used widely as an insecticide until the late 1800s

But blue mass, Icebaths, and bloodletting for "all kinds of diseases", were a thing.
>minor cough
>let some blood and put kid in a icebath

>does not get better?
>then dimethyl ether inhalation therapy it is
>not better?
>then we resort to mercury and arsnicals

Also putting children in mental asylums and starve them was a thing.
Also putting children in ""Quarantine" facilities during ""pox"" times were a thing.
Where they did:
>electroshock therapy
>bloodletting
>Icebaths
>put them in whirling chairs
https://www.rcpe.ac.uk/sites/default/files/vol28_4.1_11.pdf
>gave them opiates as """Behaviour forming medicine"""

And "medical naive fallacies":
>kid with pox is sick
>kid without pox is healthy
>so we cut off the pox and child will get healthy
Sadly all the pox shaved children died a horrbly painfull dead, which lead to the panic.

>>15302315
>>15302353
>Oh you're right, you're too stupid to know that it does, sorry for not phrasing correctly. Also, not an argument. Also, everything you've posted has been ignorant of immunology and is not evidence.

>>15304650
>has been ignorant of immunology

Immunology is based on
>germs make sick
>no evidence that germs make sick anywhere
>correlation != causation

BUT
>nonono even if we don't have evidence of germs making sick
>we have evidence of epidimio-illogical statistics that indicate immunity
>and from here we make up CD4+ and other memes, like "specific" antibodies
>when in fact there is not such a thing

>so you will enter a world
>in which "having antibodies" for something can mean: you are sick and you are immune at the same time
>and also "antibodies mean nothing because you still get sick"
https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/coronavirus/expert-answers/covid-antibody-tests/faq-20484429

So you require to have conflicting beliefs at the same time about antibodies in your brain.
>they mean nothing
>they mean you are sick
>they mean you are immune
>but most importantly, they mean nothing
>because you shall still get vaxxed everytime

>>15300777
There's a high chance you have botulism bacteria in you right now, why aren't you sick?

>>15303246
>Tuberculosis as well, which they just referred to as ‘consumption’

If you don't look at the history of "how [insert disease of the past]" was originally treated they you don't get the Idea why it was so deadly.
Not only was the "cuase" of Tuberculosis vague and but most likely industrial poisoning by toxic chemical fumes.
But also they were unable to differenciate properly between "peunmonia", "bronchitis" and "tuberculosis".
> https://pmj.bmj.com/content/1/3/33
in the late 1800s and early 1900s they gave poeple toxic and extremly invasive therapies, which killed them.
They gave people for example "Shiloh's Consumption Cure".
Which was Alcohol, morphine and chloroform and tar.

Not only that, they did "Plobages" on a lot of people on SUSPICION of tuberculosis.
They didn't had serious "diagnostic tools" for that.
They just, filled the lungs with acrylic balls...

Also Slavarsan and Potassium antimony tartrate (tartar emetic of potassium antimonyl tartrate) was used...
Which is incredibly toxic.

And then the fraudulent "tuberculin injections" by robert koch, which does not even did anything beneficial.

Doctors loved to tell every thing is "tuberculosis". Because then they could "experiment" on the patient. And "find a cure" and become "heroes" and had shizophrenic paranoia to not "diagnose the worst possibility".

Quote from 01 December 1925 Postgraduate Medical Journal:

"From the physician's
point of view it is easier and safer to give a positive
diagnosis in a doubtful case. If pulmonary tuberculosis is diagnosed and the patient recovers, credit
is given to the doctor. Even if the diagnosis is
wrong, who is to know ? If, on the other hand, the
patient is said to be free from the disease the doctor
will be blamed if at any future date he should
develop it."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuberculin#The_tuberculin_scandal

>>15303390
>references to the symptom cluster

How do you know it's rabies, when it is not distinctly different from flu, myelitis, neurotoxic poisoning?

Also rabies was a death sentence in at the turn of the 19th century, because treatment of it consisted of getting 25 vaccined after beeing bitten.

"The treatment consisted of 25 injections of rabies vaccine: three on the first day, two on the second, two on the third, and one each day after for 18 days. Each dose was slightly stronger, or more virulent, than the preceding"

https://americanhistory.si.edu/blog/2013/10/surviving-rabies-100-years-ago.html

Also the vaccines were phenolized.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2542172/

Meaning they were reacted with phenol and that shit is pretty toxic.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK542311/
>vague Symptoms collected in the past means rabies is a nanoscopic replication competent particle

Great leaps of logic here.

I honestly have to wonder: does the anti-germ theory guy know you can buy fungicides and assorted stuff to take care of plants? Does he thing that those simple don’t work?

>>15291909
this is even dumber than flat earth.

>check blood samples of healthy, asymptomatic people - no bacteria; no signs of systemic responses to large presence of uncontrolled, pathogenic bacteria/viruses in peripheral tissues

>check blood samples of people with signs of sepsis, find bacteria in the blood...

>isolate bacteria from said blood in lab - culture them, grow them; test multiple antibiotics against them to see which one kills them best

>give septic patient the antibiotic that kills the isolated bacteria best

>patient gets better and doesn't die; recheck blood - no more bacteria or signs of active massive bacterial infection

>bacteria don't cause illness... ?

Solid work, mate.

You are either a troll... or you should be assigned a competent legal guardian. I don't think you are able to manage your affairs safely, I hope you don't have a drivers license or own any guns. God forbid you have children, you should go get a vasectomy ASAP - your court-assigned guardian can consent for you.

>>15305382
Which SARS-COV2 vaccine did you get? Are your boosters up to date?

>>15303246
>once symptoms show up rabies has a 99% mortality rate
>99%
>when 1/7 people who live in the middle of the fucking amazon rainforest are immune to the rabies virus
https://www.snexplores.org/article/surprising-rabies-resistance

Now the people who discovered this say it's POSSIBLY because the bats have a smaller dose of the virus making it easier to fight off, but they don't really know for certain and I can't find anything else by searching except for lies about how only one woman has survived getting rabies. And to add onto it most animals that people get rabies from, like bats, have a lot secretions that make people sick. If you wanna talk about a disease that makes animals really sick and leaves no survivors you should maybe look into distemper which has a 100% mortality rate in infected ferrets.

>>15305541
2-5% of Swedes have a gene that prevents HIV infection. That doesn't change the global statistics of HIV because there are 8 billion people and less than 0.5% of them are Swedes.

>>15305382
This never happened.

streptococci are bacteria commonly found in the throat and on the skin.
The bacterium is usually harmless in healthy adults.

Group B strep (streptococcus) is a common bacterium often carried in the intestines or lower genital tract. The bacterium is usually harmless in healthy adults.

Vit for some wierd meme reason. .if you are sick, strep is to blame...

Bacteria are everywhere.
Always.
Within you. It's called a microbiom.
Or a healthy collective organism.
What you are.

Kochs postulate could never be verified.
Correlation != causation.

Same for virus.
Correlation != causation.
Except that virs never have been isolated, by the original meaning of isolation.
But only within the wierd meme definition of isolation of virololgists:
>isolation means we add more shit to the sample
>and also never be able to find it in the sample or in its natural habitat
>we need to add kidney tissue, trypsin, neomycin, bovine serum, yehydrate the mixture, add lead and uranium to it, pour it in epoxy, take a monochrome image, of a slice of that mix and claim that random particles are the cause of disease
>without ever extracting these particles
>then we add yeast give it all a good mix, and put it in 3 Gene sequencers from different Brands which assambles 200k reads of 40-100 bases of gene segments to hundrets of 100k to 4million part genomes.
>then we pick one or two and stick them together
>and claim we did isolation and found the complete genome

"""Isolation"""

>>15305558
HIV is a lot of scammy hoaxs so I'm cautious of your claim

>>15305565
Statistics is real regardless of what you believe. Just because some Amazonian tribe has a natural resistance to rabies doesn't mean everyone else does.

>>15305569
>Statistics is real
Only if the data is real.

>>15305476
>>15305564
So, if I am hearing you guys correctly - what you're saying is:

You are incapable of understanding this very clear, basic, repeatedly-proven (countless times every day, all around the world... for many, many decades) example of pathogenic microorganisms causing disease that I have presented for you - and you aren't at all prepared to, or mentally competent enough to, engage with this very basic example I have laid out.

10 4 good buddy. The next time either of you get gonorrhea or chlamydia from fucking your sister - save some time, don't bother going to the doctor for antibiotics - just take extra vitamin D and you'll be perfectly fine. (BUT - if that dirty whore gave you syphilis already - you will eventually be on your way to developing neurosyphilis if you insist on completely avoiding antibiotics).

It will be a great shame when that day comes, the world will mourn the loss of your beautiful minds. And what if you go blind from it? How will you get on here and show off your idiocy to the rest of the internet then, my friend? Jk, everyone knows you can prevent syphilis-induced blindness safely & effectively with bleach eye drops.

Also >this never happend
Really, what the fuck? You literally have 0 understanding of any of this. We do this all day every day in hospital labs - you know, to diagnose & treat people who have illnesses caused by pathogenic bacteria. You seem to struggle with understanding that not all bacteria are pathogenic in humans. Why do we bother using sterile needles, syringes, and alcohol swabs for blood draws? Seems like a waste of money.

There are lots of bacteria that are great to have in your small/large intestines - if they stay where they belong/in appropriate numbers - they are wonderful. But I strongly advise against eating or rubbing feces into your wounds, good sir. - free pro tip for ya there. I don't know why this is difficult for you guys to understand. Really, I hope you are just bored and trolling.

>>15305602
No I just asked which covid 19 vaccine you got?

>>15305602

>>15305602
You wasted so much words.
Why didn't you just write:
>I believe in a (in the best case) unproven and extremly flawed, theory
>until I have a alternate explaination for every single dis-ease
>because I am afraid of multifactorial problems with no clear answer
>I am afraid of the unkown

>>15305611
Right, you are deflecting because you have no idea what you are talking about. Vaccine status is irrelevant to this discussion because using my magical imaginary time machine - I can assure you that I would be calling you an idiot and explaining in this same way how pathogenic bacteria are a proven thing - even back in 2018.

But no, since (unlike you) I know how the immune system/diseases work - so after getting covid a time or 2, no - I didn't get the vaccine/boosters. Why would I get a bunch of shots - I already have natural immunity from exposure/infection.

>>15305644
No, I was asking because with your knowledge surely you picked the best option I was curious which one you went with after analysing all of the data and test results?

>>15305569
Here's the thing though anon, in the post here >>15305558 it's claimed that Swedes have a GENE that protects against HIV infection, where this tribe in the amazon develops this resistance to rabies AFTER being infected, it's not an inherent genetic trait in this group of people. But if you wanna bring HIV into this then we can bring it into this, I'm not gonna say whether germs do or don't cause disease but it's a bit werid how people can naturally survive and recover from these viruses yet for some reason they can't recover from HIV, we have a rabies vaccine but not a vaccine for HIV. I know there's a meme about "big pharma" but it does actually exist whether you want to believe it or not, when I had to go see a spinal surgeon about a disk in my back he told me that there were two ways to go about fixing it, either fusing my spine with surgery, or I could try taking vitamin A which had been shown to revitalize degenerated disks in the spine, and he only told me this because he had the same problem and went to conferences to figure out how to fix it because he didn't want the surgery. He told me that I wouldn't hear about this from any other doctor because when it was discovered it was pushed under the rug because it was hard for insurance to make money off of it, and when all your healthcare is covered by the government they wanna get thier moneys worth. Most medical professionals don't care about your health anymore, they only care about how much they can profit off of you, no matter where you live.

>>15305602
provide data supporting your claims please

>>15305612
Yes, you continue to demonstrate your lack of understanding of basic facts - but this time using visual aids. You get a gold star for effort. You know, statistics can be hard for people to understand - math can be confusing. But basic biology and pathophysiology principles are something that all non-retards should be able to understand.

Do you wash your hands after you wipe your ass & accidentally get shit on your fingers? Or do you just grab a pickle out of the jar and start munchin with shit-covered fingers?

Do you eat food off of the floor of public restrooms?

Do you want people cooking your food at restaurants to wash their hands? Do you want them to keep raw chicken away from your breadsticks? Maybe you even go extra extreme and expect said chicken to be cooked at a high enough temp for a long enough time... to kill any of the non-existent pathogenic bacteria that might be present?

Or do you just constantly have diarrhea from eating raw chicken off of the floor?

I'm genuinely concerned for your health and safety here. Things can be better, you don't have to live this way my friend. There are already plenty of starving, parasite/disease addled kids in Africa shitting themselves to death - we don't need your help adding to the numbers.

>>15305674
>Yes, you continue to demonstrate your lack of understanding of basic facts - but this time using visual aids. You get a gold star for effort. You know, statistics can be hard for people to understand - math can be confusing. But basic biology and pathophysiology principles are something that all non-retards should be able to understand.
>Do you wash your hands after you wipe your ass & accidentally get shit on your fingers? Or do you just grab a pickle out of the jar and start munchin with shit-covered fingers?
>Do you eat food off of the floor of public restrooms?
>Do you want people cooking your food at restaurants to wash their hands? Do you want them to keep raw chicken away from your breadsticks? Maybe you even go extra extreme and expect said chicken to be cooked at a high enough temp for a long enough time... to kill any of the non-existent pathogenic bacteria that might be present?
>Or do you just constantly have diarrhea from eating raw chicken off of the floor?
>I'm genuinely concerned for your health and safety here. Things can be better, you don't have to live this way my friend. There are already plenty of starving, parasite/disease addled kids in Africa shitting themselves to death - we don't need your help adding to the numbers.

>>15305674
The placebo effect exists anon, you might just THINK eating raw chicken makes you shit yourself to death when in reality it's only your brain reacting to things you're told. I sorta thought these anti-germ theory fags were gay until they posted multiple examples on how germ theory might not exist and now I'm on the fence, meanwhile all the pro germ theorists have is "IT'S BASIC KNOWLEDGE BRO, GO GET RABIES AND DIE REEEEEEE" instead of actually bringing back proof proving germ theory is correct. As other anons were saying correlation != causation, and you have to always keep in mind the most popular/accepted theory isn't always the right one.

>>15305674
>Do you want people cooking your food at restaurants to wash their hands?

Kek, You never worked in gastronomy right?

According to your suggestive question, 2/3 of all diner, fastfood and streetfood custumers would be dead already.

>>15305666
Which claim? The claim that...

In hospitals... if patient condition presents in a way that we suspect infection by a pathogenic organism... we collect samples of infected areas/body fluids, send them to the lab, see if there are pathogenic bacteria in there - if yes, we grow a bunch of said bacteria that we harvested, then test different antibiotics on this sample to see which antibiotics kill it the best, then give that antibiotic to the patient...

Then, after treatment, we re-collect a sample from the same source we collected the previous bacteria-laden sample from:

A. If patient not responding to treatment - need to see if that bacteria is still present. If all/some symptoms persist AND that bacteria was killed then there is either a different causative organism/or other non-infectious cause to the remaining symptoms; OR if that original bacteria is still present - we need to pick a different antibiotic

vs

B.The patient is better/clearly responding to treatment and we attempt to grow pathogenic bacteria from the new sample - and then we are *never* surprised when we find out that the patient who got better after the antibiotics we picked... no longer has those pathogenic bacteria present in re-collected sample?

Is that what you want supported? That that happens in real life and that is how that works?

>>15305719
Cool story bro.
Wheres proof?

>>15305751
The proof is empirical observation that it occurs the same way every time.

>>15305703
I didn't say that EVERY TIME someone eats raw chicken they get diarrhea from a foodborne pathogen. You can derive this by:

A. Common sense

B. Not being a disingenuous/bad-faith retard who is never going to care what I say because 0 amount of clear, obvious proof will matter to you

C. That part where I chose to specifically word my post with the following (in anticipation of another retarded response like yours that I am responding to)

"...chicken to be cooked at a high enough temp for a long enough time... to kill any of the non-existent pathogenic bacteria that might be present?"

See that whole "might be present" part? That means that I agree and recognize that NOT ALL CHICKEN CONTAINS PATHOGENIC BACTERIA. Jesus fuck, I shouldn't have to hold your hand on this - I already went out of my way to phrase it that way to help your ass/try to save my time having to respond to another retarded post... and it still didn't get through to you.

Come on. If we are going to have a back and forth here, I really would appreciate it if you are actually going to think. Like I said, I can pretty much guarantee that no amount of proof/evidence will change your mind, so I guess I am also a retard to continue trying to explain basic 2+2 = 4 level shit to you. My only hope is that someone else will read something I've said and they will claw themselves back from the precipice of falling into full retardation.

If you are actually wanting to learn about this, completely different story. If one of you guys post something that makes me somehow question my understanding of pathogenic organisms/infectious disease - I will genuinely read into it. Everything so far has been the usual babble that makes it obvious the poster lacks a functional understanding of the topic at hand, & is just repeating things they've heard that align with their existing incorrect conclusions. If I see something that isn't that/isn't obviously wrong, I'll give it consideration that it deserves.

>>15305382
read engelbrechts virus mania book then come back to these threads

>>15305751

I was first clarifying whether that is what you wanted me to post information about. if you genuinely care and are actually going to read it, I will put together a reply or 2 with some associated images to try to explain it.

>>15305753
Even when results are repeatable - you aren't going to get 100% repeatability. There are always potentials for confounding variables & complications. But yes, the data is there to support this practice and is repeated in labs, universities, hospitals, etc all around the world... all the time.

Really, if you guys are actually going to consider the stuff in good faith, I am happy to try to explain it to you. I just can't help but feel like I'm completely wasting my time & no amount of proof/info is going to matter.

I'll make one more quick post first to throw out some terms/general summary about the whole 'lab specimen / culture process' stuff I had been outlining... and then I gotta be AFK for a couple. Standby for a quick summary post with a little bit more detail with the step by step... standby

>>15305797
>no amount of proof
Amount of proof you delivered: 0

>>15291909
Are you the original author of the pastelink?

>>15305666
>>15305751
>>15305753

>1 of /??

If someone is suspected to have sepsis/systemic infection (a local infection has gotten so severe/uncontrolled by the immune system that it manages to spread into the blood stream and spread throughout the body vs you get your blood stream directly infected and the original 'local' source is also directly the source for the sepsis, ie, using a contaminated needle to shoot up heroin or something) then we draw blood for multiple labs, we use specific vials to collect 2 separate samples of blood for what is called a blood culture.
(or on a less severe level, instead of blood cultures/sepsis - we can also use example of collecting urine samples for urinalysis/urine culture in someone suspected of having a UTI - same process)

If your blood/urine sample is sent for *culture* - that means we are trying to get bacteria to grow from that sample. If bacteria do NOT grow - then we know the person's symptoms are most likely not related to presence of a pathogenic bacteria.

If bacteria DO grow - we identify which ones they are and how many of them are there originally/how many grow from this sample. There are multiple reasons why we do this:

A. As others have stated - bacteria are EVERYWHERE. If a sample is contaminated - ie, if the skin that was punctured for the blood draw was not properly cleaned prior to sample collection; if the sample container wasn't sterile; if we are dealing with urine - if the person giving the sample didn't clean themselves proper (or if it wasn't properly collected using sterile technique and a catether) - then we will see normal, non-pathogenic skin/other bacteria present in the sample. Depending on the sample/the amount of contamination from the skin bacteria etc, we will 1. Ignore all the non-pathogenic bacteria in the sample & focus on the ID'd bacteria there that are known to cause disease. and/or 2. Collect a new sample that isn't contaminated.

next post starts with B. - culturing/growing samples

>>15305847
>>15305666
>>15305751
>>15305753

>2 of / ??
B. Once we identify one or more pathogenic organisms in the sample - we grow those cultures to be larger populations that we use for testing. This step of testing is called 'sensitivity'

C. Sensitivity is what we call it when we are taking those cultures of pathogenic bacteria and then exposing them to a number of different antibiotics - to determine 1. If the pathogen is resistant to any of them. 2. Which antibiotics effectively kill enough of that bacteria. This is measured by describing both how many CFUs (Colonoy Forming Units) remained after exposure & what the MIC (Minimum Inhibitory Concentration) of each effective antibiotic was, in order to obtain the desired effect.

D. Then based on this data we are able to select treatment - we pick which antibiotic will be least least harsh on the patient (why drop a nuke on a single soldier if you can just shoot him with 1 bullet? You want to pick a treatment that is effective but is also not overkill/would be more likely to cause undesired effects, ie worse side effects/excessively taxing/risking damage to organs, ie kidneys, liver, etc.

Attached is an example of a sample of a sample swab from a presumably infected wound. At the top you will note the day-by-day growth notes; then which organisms were ID'd; then the long list of antibiotics tested on each organism and the results.

standby for more, gotta let dogs out

>>15305855
we all know full well that bacteria will grow where they can this isn't the point of the topic I appreciate that you feel like you are targeting absolute retards who can't understand basic biology but this is not the topic you think it is.

>>15305847
>>15305855
Nice wall of texts.
But it's all your words.
But since you are an expert, it might be easy for you to provide causal evidence of an submicroscopic agent via natural pathway of transmission which produces the same disease which was present in host organism, which was allegedly caused by that specific agent.

You use a lot of words.
But i require some sort of scientific evidence, a paper of an experiment which is the foundation of your ramblings.

>>15305868
>3 / ??

Ok Right. So this is what you don't seem to be getting.

The samples are collected in sterile conditions or as close to sterile conditions as possible. We use sterile equipment to collect the samples.

We keep the samples isolated from outside environment/from cross contamination to maintain this.

We then grow them in sterile dishes.

There are plenty of times that we collect samples and NO BACTERIA GROW.

Say, someone presents with symptoms that sound like it COULD be a urinary tract infection. If the symptoms are in fact caused by something other than a pathogenic organism's presence in the bladder/urine - no pathogenic organisms will grow from that urine sample. And if the urine was collected using perfect sterile technique, using a catheter (rather than a clean-catch 'piss in a sterile cup' method) then NO bacteria will grow at all in those dishes

If the sample wasn't collected in with a perfect, sterile technique - then bacteria from the skin or from other source of contamination will grow in those dishes - and we will be able to tell by A. The type of the bacteria. B. A high number of the bacteria present IMMEDIATELY, not even requiring delays to allow for growth on the plate - and even higher numbers once time is given for growth. And then we either know to completely disregard the sample or to consider it still acceptable proof that a pathogenic organism isn't present and isn't the source of the symptoms the patient is complaining of.

This is what this is so frustrating to try to figure out ways to explain this to you guys. I can't take you through med school via 4chan replies. We account for all these variables that you think are big 'gotcha!' points.

There have been literally countless times across my career that samples come back with absolutely 0 growth - not all disease is caused by pathogenic organisms. Your argument that cultures/sensitivities are meaningless because bacteria grow where they can is null.

>>15305881
I'm really trying to figure out ways to explain this shit in a way that will matter to you/that doesn't require you to spend 4-6-8 years in college.

It is like me telling you 2+2 is 4, showing you by holding up 4 fingers, and counting from 1 to 4... and you saying 'yeah but what mathematical theorems are behind all that, this isn't proof'

You guys are arguing over some of the most basic shit here. It is proven time and time again, all day every day.

Explain to me then: If a patient who has a urinary tract infection bad enough to cause symptoms, urine sample shows pathogenic organisms known to cause UTI. Been bothering them for weeks, isn't getting better. They've tried
cranberry extract, tried drinking a lot of water, resting, etc - nothing has helped.

You give them antibiotics that kill the identified pathogenic bacteria, they get better within a couple days - no more symptoms - you recheck the urine - the targeted bacteria can no longer be found; pathogenic bacteria can no longer be found.

***Are you suggesting that you have a better explanation for why the disappearance of the bacteria aligns with the resolution of all symptoms, aside from that... the bacteria was the causative agent?*** Is it from sin?

Because, I know that correlation doesn't = causation. But I also know that... the successful clinical use of antibiotics to treat conditions caused by pathogenic bacteria... happens countless times a day, all day, every day. This isn't some fringe theory. It is proven in practice, all day every day. And to anyone who has learned about this, or worked in medicine, it is basic, obvious fact.

We see in practice what happens when people have an infection and don't get it treated - if their immune system wasn't able to handle it on its own - it keeps getting worse, and it keeps spreading. Same UTI example - don't take antibiotics; continue to get worse, end up with bladder/kidney infection, then sepsis & then death.

>>15305901
>Your argument that cultures/sensitivities are meaningless because bacteria grow where they can is null.
You seem like a real faggot anon, and it sounds like you lack reading comprehension too. People aren't arguing about HOW bacteria grow, and you'd know this if you read any of the thread before posting your condescending lesson on testing patients for bacteria. People aren't saying the testing is unreliable, but rather germs aren't causing illnesses all by themselves. Other anons like >>15305042, >>15303293, >>15302158 and others are trying to say is that most treatments ended up harming the patients and making them sick, and the germs weren't really the cause of these illnesses. The anti-germ theory nerds ITT aren't just posting this shit to rile (You) up either, they have actual evidence on their side as studies done on transmitting illnesses directly with the bacteria that causes the illnesses don't actually transmit to healthy patients, or the samples are tainted with drugs that cause the symptoms of the illnesses, see >>15301090, >>15294278 and >>15297391. Now try actually reading the discussion in the thread before going full holier than thou mode.

But that's not actually answering the problem at all?

>>15305797
>>15305929
It seems like you don't understand the problem. There's no explanation needed, we understand your theory. We're asking for scientific evidence that it holds.

>>15305929
It makes my head hurt trying to explain this. Do you know how many people would have to be wrong about EVERYTHING we are talking about, thousands of times a day, every day?

If the shit didn't work - we wouldn't fucking be doing it. Evidence-based-practice. We wouldn't keep giving antibiotics to people who had pathogenic bacteria present in their urine samples if a statistically insignificant amount of them got better from the antibiotics OR if their symptoms got better BUT the presumed causative pathogenic bacteria was STILL PRESENT AT THE SAME NUMBERS upon repeat culture AFTER antibiotic treatment.

I have met plenty of retarded people in every job - medical and non-medical - plenty of retarded nurses, doctors, PAs, NPs - plenty of retards all around this world.

But most of us are not absolute fucking idiots. We spend an insane amount of time learning about this stuff; an INSANE amount of time and special protocols and expensive sterile equipment to properly culture and conduct sensitivity screenings; and then... even MORE TIME selecting the right antibiotic based on research data that has led to treatment protocols.

Don't you think we would be a bit suspicious and start to question everything we had learned... if we had the same odds of just skipping all the tests and all the expensive drugs, and just lied to patients and gave them sugar pills and depended on the placebo effect to cure them of their UTI? Prescribing antibiotics for known pathogenic bacteria known to cause disease... never, ever feels like going to the casino. The data is there - that is what we base our decisions off of - and then we have success in the field, outside of controlled research settings - and then we collect the data from the field/outside of the research setting... and we do more research on that, calculate all the statistics, and prove that what we are doing continues to be validated by the evidence.

Insurance companies would never pay for it if we were making it up.

So is this wall of text fucker going to keep acting like a retard or actually engage with the topic?

>>15305953
We're not arguing that the treatment or testing doesn't work retard, everyone keeps telling you this isn't what we're talking about yet it seems to go in one ear and out the other with you, READ THE FUCKING THREAD YOU MORON

>>15305940
Well, for 1, people WERE saying the testing was unreliable "bacteria will grow wherever they can, we get it"

Not all diseases / conditions are caused by pathogenic organisms. But the ones that are, that aren't able to resolve on their own with your immune system doing all the work, respond to medication. We always weigh risks vs benefits when considering treatments. If the treatment has a higher likelihood of causing more harm than good, we don't use it. We educate the patient on the potential harms/unintended effects; we educate them on the potential harms/risks of not treating whatever the condition is. Then the patient can choose what they wish to do.

And yes, of course 'exposing someone to a pathogenic bacteria who isn't sick doesn't always get them sick' - no shit. It takes a combination of things for a pathogenic bacteria to be able to cause disease in a person. This isn't some 'gotcha' nor is it proof against germ theory. The immune system has to be too weak to defeat the causative organism and/or the causative organism has to be present in high enough quantity & be able to grow at a rapid enough rate to overwhelm a healthy immune system. ....or, in the case of say, an abscess, be growing in a sectioned off area that the immune system is incapable of reaching said bacteria.

If pathogenic bacteria can't spread from one person to the next and cause symptoms, how do you explain STDs? And again, NO, not every time that you have sex with someone who has an infection does it mean that you are going to get that infection - we know that.

It is hard to not be condescending, I'm sorry, but god damn. Dunning Kruger in full force up in here. Nobody is saying that EVERY TIME a person is exposed to 1 bacteria known to cause disease then they will get said disease. Literally no qualified, educated person should ever say that. Transmission doesn't always happen. Pathology doesn't always happen. We know this. This has been accounted for.

>>15305953
Immunity has been debunked sweetie. Go back to /pol/ with the rest of the antivaxxers.

>>15305955
>>15305962
>>15305940

Believe it or not, medicine has come a long way since the days of tuberculosis, the spanish flu... giving morphine and heroin to kids with a cough; giving amphetamine nasal sprays to housewives with simple allergic congestion.

You guys are referencing ancient shit that any modern medical practitioner would recognize as retarded and barbaric. I'm not defending that shit. Of course carving up someone's fucking chest because you 'think they might maybe have TB - aren't sure, but do it anyways' is completely unacceptable. That's not how things are anymore.

We have infinitely better laboratory and diagnostic imaging abilities - some shit we depend on routinely today wasn't available even 20 years ago - imagine how far we've come since 1900. Christ, modern antibiotics didn't even start getting used/having basic understanding until fucking world war II.

I'm sorry if I'm not fully understanding every single claim you guys are making... but sorry, most of the posts I've read on here are just baseless jibberish. It seems like you guys don't know much at all how modern medicine works and how much time we invest in testing and making sure we pick the right treatments. And how much research and real-world clinical analysis goes into creating treatment protocols/guidelines.

We still have a long fucking way to go... I'm not gonna pretend like I/the medical community knows everything. That would be retarded of me. But don't act like there isn't constant research in labs and constant, widespread data collection in the field to continually prove/evaluate/re-evaluate efficacy and potential + actual documented risks/harms of treatment.

>>15305977
Anon people weren't saying the testing is unreliable, rather that the bacteria can grow in a healthy person and not effect them at all, they're arguing correlation does not equal causation. And to bring back a point I made earlier, why do we have a vaccine for rabies and not one for HIV (I don't really know what point I'm trying to make with it here but I want muh answer). People are skeptical because all the studies done to prove germ theory without a shadow of a doubt have all been tainted, people aren't just screaming that you're wrong but rather they want proof you're right about germ theory. Post an article, a study, literally anything to back up your point on germ theory being germ fact and people will be more happy to engage with you, unlike real life conversations you can actually go and find a source rather than just saying "I saw it" or "I read a study about it", the fact you're just saying things are as they are in a conversation where people are saying they're not is just arguing in bad faith, bring something other than your experience so it can actually be discussed.

You know you can watch viruses infect cells, reproduce, burst out of them, and infect more cells? You can watch white blood cells fighting bacteria, etc. You literally just have to purchase a microscope.

>>15306014
To the question about viruses and vaccines - certain virus families are a lot easier to make vaccines against than others. Most of it has to do with mechanism of cell infiltration/infection & virus mutation rate/type of mutation that typically occurs. If the best way to effectively target and stop a virus from entering the cell with a particular vaccine also happens to target the same thing on the virus that mutates most frequently - then it can be kinda pointless to try to make a vaccine for that using that method, since it will become unreliable as soon as said mutation occurs. So you need to find a different thing to target that would both 1. be effective. 2. not be a target/structure that is expected to rapidly/frequently change to the point that the vaccine will no longer work against it

Some virus families (through a combination of how we target them, as well as how the immunity is developed) are "easy" to make vaccines for where we may only need them once and still have lifelong immunity - or maybe wont need a booster for 20 years or something.

Others, like the flu, the strain changes enough that we have to try to aim for a combination of targeted substrains that hopefully will best match whatever comes around that season.

Corona viruses, like the common cold, were long seen as way too difficult to be able to develop vaccines for (not to mention the fact that the priority is quite low given the minimal harm caused by most of them in most people)

Of course, the profit motive is always an issue - if something is too hard/too expensive to develop and if the target audience is too small - obviously drug companies are... companies - and that gives them far less incentive to put the R&D dollars into even trying for some of the shit.

I will try to find a paper for you that discusses different virus families/vaccine methodology, but not sure if I can find a good one that really goes into the specifics. It is a very interesting topic.

>>15306014
>>15306060

Here are a couple quick things. I know I've seen this topic explained concisely somewhere without leaving a bunch of crap out, I'm trying to remember what that one is. But here is a wordy/kind of meandering 2020 paper and then an article that tries to explain some of the key points - if you want to better understand viruses and vaccines - ignore the covid / covid vaccine stuff and first stick to all the historic types of 'classic' vaccines that we have infinitely more data/better understanding of

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7166819/

https://www.cedars-sinai.org/blog/why-vaccine-boosters.html

HIV vaccine paper for a starter:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7655734/

"the greatest challenge in developing an effective HIV vaccine has been the high rate of mutation and recombination during viral replication (9). The enormous genetic diversity of HIV is mainly driven by the high rate of variability of the viral envelope glycoprotein, which ironically happens to be the main target of neutralizing antibodies...high mutation rates of approximately 1–10 mutations per genome per replication cycle, extensive conformational adaptability, and massive glycan shielding of the envelope enable the virus to evade the effects of neutralizing antibodies and other immune responses. ...extraordinary worldwide genetic diversity is yet another hurdle to the development of a vaccine. HIV is composed of 4 groups: M, O, N, and P (pending). M is subdivided into 9 subtypes... been shown that amino acid variations within these can be as high as 30% with those between subtypes as high as 42%. These amino acid variations are based on the subtypes & region of the genome being examined. The difficulty of developing a universal vaccine is further compounded by the fact that 10–20% of HIV infected people in several parts of Africa are infected with two or more viral variants that circulate in these regions"

>>15291909

>>15305674

i eat raw meat all the time and never cooked any of the meat i have eaten in 9 years and im still waiting to die of muh samanella or muh parasites you're a fucking onions milk guzzling faggot

>>15306213
Do the pigs and cows in your country frequently come into contact with human shit? There you go again, not thinking things all the way through.

>>15291909
Why can't we just agree that pathogens do cause disease, but the best way to defend against them is by taking care of our health so our immune system is in the best state to deal with them?

>>15305690
Literally. Not a single good argument for germ theory except for character assassination and strawman. It truly is the ultimate midwit test...

>>15291909
> germs do not cause desease
> develops a complex and very adaptable immune system to fight those
pick one

>>15306520
>pick one
No.
I pick none.
Because both are memes.
Literally.
Germs are present on sick and dying tissue.
Not because they made the tissue die. But because they eat it and clean it up.

If you see a dead rabbit next to the road, and see it beeing full of with maggot eating the rabbit, no reasonable person will say: "it was the maggots that killed the rabbit".

White blood cells attack anything that does not belong in the blood.
Even splinters, toxins, metal contaminants.
If you have a physical Trauma and a broken bone leaks liquids into other tissue white blood cells macrophages and lymphocites will come and clean it up.
They are there for order.
There is no """adaptive""" immune system.
You are not immune in the first place.
It's a detoxidication and order mechanism.
To prove you are """immune""" you have to prove that a replication competent particle such as a Virus:
>is found
>is isolated from sick host
>so that you only have a buckload of virus, and only virus, no meme "helping chemicals, which are actually toxic", just virus maybe suspended in saline or water
>then you take the buckload of virus
>transmit it via natrual pathways, food, aerosols in the air, not directly injecting it in the brain or injecting it in the belly or testicles
>show same disease happens

If this never happens, you cannot say "there is addaptive immunity".
Because for addaptive immunity, the host requires to get sick in the first place, and then has to be proven that on reexposure of the exact same method, nothing happens.

But this has never been done.
So it's all memes.

>>15306764
Do you autists just move from one contrarian opinion to the next?

Survival of the fittest occurs in our body as much as it occurs in nature

>>15306012
So you're going to keep being an obnoxious prig I see and not engage with the critique, guess I'll have to hide you.

Morning /x/ why are you here.

>>15306931
To achieve ultimate internal implosivity and bliss, increasing the frequency associated with happiness in the universe what else?

Wow, I'm surprised this bastion of malicious ignorance hasn't been eaten by page 11.

OP, please consider doing this
>>15295420

If you are as correct as you think you are, then nothing will come of it. Also, remember to get sterile swabs.

>>15306027
Nonononooooooooo I have to shitpost and be right while everyone else is wrong or my sense of identity will cease to exist.

>>15307036
Similar things have been done already:
https://rupress.org/jem/article-pdf/51/5/777/1178818/777.pdf
>get bunny
>get corpse of person with neurological disease
>get nerves
>grind them up
>put them in solution
>inject solution directly in the testicles of rabbit
>if rabbits get sick "poliomyelitis virus is proven"
>but wierdly only testicle are swollen but none got sick with polio
"The testicle of the fourth animal was injected into the 4th ventricle of a fifth. No symptoms occurred in the final animal or in any an|real of the
series."

>then kill bunny
>take swollen testicles
>grind testicles up
>suspend them in solution
"virus emulsion was injected into a rabbit's testicle which was removed aseptically under anaesthesia in 4 days, ground up with saline and reinjected
into the testicle of a new animal."

>inject solution into the brain of a monkey
>if monkey gets sick, its proof of "virus"
>but monkey does not get sick
>only slighlty irritated
"An emulsion of the brain and cord of this animal injected intracerebrally into a monkey produced no
symptoms. "

>take three more monkey and directly inject solution in brain after drilling hole
"Three of the animals, two of which died, showed other symptoms
including spastic leg conditions, salivation, convulsions and postural abnormalities."
>inject in another group
"Two died without showing symptoms at 21 and 30 days."
>must be the virus

>hmm maybe its not the virus but the procedure of injecting shit in the brain
>lets do an control experiment:
"Many of the symptoms seen in the injected group were
seen in the control group."


kek

>>15307036
>to prove oral and respiratory transmission of a (sub)microscopic organism is causing disease
>please do not, breathe or orally consoom
>please inflict minor physical trauma
>and insert foreign material past your skin barrier
>please do not try natural route of infection, we claim causes disease
>please do not consider that trauma inflicted wounds are different than inhalation and ingestion
>please inoculate into a invasive physical trauma would
>to prove that breathing and ingesting germ causes the sniffles
>bro trust me it makes 100% sense, that two different pathways are used
>you just don't get it

I wish /pol/ tourists would go back. 5 seconds on pubmed could find thousands of articles which prove it but that would require understanding things like how to read above primary school level.

"Barry Marshall H. Pylori stomach ulcers experiment" is a famous case that should be dumbed down enough for you.

>>15307125
>every time i see something i don't like, its part of a big conspiracy against me

>>15307125
So you still don't actually don't understand the topic at all, why don't you actually try reading a few of the books in the OP jut grab them off of libgen.?

>>15307143
>hurr durr infectious agents don't cause disease it is other things like lifestyle and tissue damage
No, I understand. Old mate Barry got checked to confirm his stomach was fine and had no H pylori, orally ingested H pylori without changing anything else about his lifestyle, checked his stomach to confirm it was diseased in the expected way and full of H pylori, took antibiotics while changing nothing else about his lifestyle, got his stomach checked to confirm there was no H pylori and the disease was gone. All at the level of experimental complexity that even poltards can understand.

>>15307125
>5 seconds on pubmed could find thousands of articles which prove it
you realize you're talking to people who have actually checked whether this claim of yours is true? stop making stuff up.

>>15307148
You don't which is why you keep repeating what you currently know but won't actually contend with the issues being raised except to dismiss them because they're outside of the reach of your current paradigm.

>>15307125

You are exactly this:
>>15295404
>>15295410

>>15307157
>>15307156
>you have to prove that a replication competent particle such as a Virus:
>>is found
>>is isolated from sick host
>>so that you only have a buckload of virus, and only virus, no meme "helping chemicals, which are actually toxic", just virus maybe suspended in saline or water
>>then you take the buckload of virus
>>transmit it via natrual pathways, food, aerosols in the air, not directly injecting it in the brain or injecting it in the belly or testicles
>>show same disease happens

Old mate Barry did this. Old mate Barry won a nobel prize for doing this. Where is your nobel prize?

>>15307125
>Barry Marshall H. Pylori stomach ulcers experiment
>>15307148
>got his stomach checked to confirm there was no H pylori and the disease was gone.

please reread:
>>15293938
>>15293995

>>15307183
>NOOOOOOOOOOO THAT EVIDENCE DOESN'T COUUUUUUUUUUNT
Shame nobody from Guinness records is here, you could have set the land-speed record with how fast you move goalposts.

Goodbye thread, bump limit didn't come fast enough.

>>15307179
>Old mate Barry did this
show the exact paper not the press release of the nobel price.
Show the protocol of the experiment.
Show the methodology section.
>old mate Barry. kek

>>15307179
Post a paper where they actually do this. I dare you.

>>15294176
If bacteria dont make you sick why do i get violently ill if i eat food left out too long? or undercooked liver? especially undercooked liver. man if its even the slightest bit pink i crap myself for a week

test