/sci/ - Science & Math

>>15257616
because it doesn't fit my definition of alive

>>15257616
>evolve, have species
Species are manmade distinctions and so is evolution vs reproduction. You evolved from your parents.
>>15257616
>live and die
in this loose definition, so do e.g. stars
>reproduce
can't really argue with this part though

>>15257616
>can reproduce
No they can’t. They are literally dependent on other organisms in order for there generic code to be replicated you daft shit stain.

>>15257642
Thats just a convoluted way of reproducing

>>15257616
> >can reproduce
No they can’t. They are literally dependent on other organisms in order for their generic code to be replicated you daft shit stain.
>have species
AKA they are categorized by differences, which humans do for other animals, as well as rocks and other inanimate things.

>>15257616
They don't live.

>>15257648
They cannot reproduce themselves, thus they are not alive. I can drop a strand of RNA into one of your cells and your body will replicate it but that doesn’t make that strand of RNA any more alive than the nucleotides it is made from.

>>15257651
>dependent on other organisms in order for their generic code to be replicated
This is also true of plenty of organisms we consider alive though, e.g. toxoplasmosis.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obligate_parasite

>>15257616
>viruses evolve, have species, can live and die, can reproduce

They can't.
It's all memes.
We have no meanto observe nanoscopic organisms while they are alive.
We can take highly tainted and unnatural still images of dead cells in epoxy resin and interpret the dots.
But thats it.
Interpretation and memes.
No virus can be observed """alive""".
It's mechanism of action cannot be observed.
It's all interpretation of a dead cell in epoxy and toxic metal stains.
You just see CGI images, and artists renditions ob a supposed replication competent particle.
And the "variants" are just the failure to reproduce their shity experiments.
Because they assamble genes from 20k fragments, which they "arrange" with an black box algorithm.
And these fragments are so shitty and small, that before they assemble them, they have to multiply them with PCR techniques, which will also introduce errors and replicate errors, which then will also be used as "building blocks" for a hypothetical whole genome.
It's all memes my friend. You fell for the CGI meme.

>>15257660
Replication and reproduction aren’t the same. Viruses don’t reproduce, they replicate, and they are incapable of replicating without using the host’s cellular machinery. Non-virus obligate intracellular parasites don’t depend on the hosts cellular machinery to replicate, or to reproduce, they just need the cellular environment to live in since that is the environment they have evolved to reproduce in.

>>15257671
Take your meds.

>>15257659
>I can drop a strand of RNA into one of your cells and your body will replicate
No you can't.
Extracellular ribonuclease will destroy foreign material before it anters the cell.

And if it enters the cell, the endocellular ribonuclease will destroy it.
MemeRNA is a meme.
There isn't even any evidence that RNA does what we are told it does.
>Ribosomes translate memeRNA into protein
It is a meme, never proven because it is unobservable nor a producable effect.

Thats why gene therapy never worked.
Because they cannot get foreign material in cells without the cells attacking it or inducing self destruction.

The only materials capable of entering the cells are heavy metals and toxic phosphates and organic solvents which cannot be destroyed by ribonuclease.
And thats why these compounds are toxic.
They fuck up the internal chemistry and electric properties of cells.
Ionize them and then they malfunction.

>>15257673
>Viruses don’t reproduce, they replicate
What precisely is the difference, and how does it differ from e.g. mitosis?

>incapable of replicating without using the host’s cellular machinery
humans are also incapable of replicating, or indeed surviving, without their host environment (or a simulacrum of it)

>>15257675
Not adressing the subject.
That means you have nothing to prove any of the meme claims.

>>15257680

>What precisely is the difference, and how does it differ from e.g. mitosis?

A virus cannot establish its own "metabolic gradient", might sound trivial but it is not ... they are incapable of producing the energy required for replication, so they need to hijack a cell which does produce said energy.

>>15257685
>incapable of producing the energy
So are you. You must hijack an environment full of chemical energy in the form of sugars and fats in order to reproduce. So do each of your cells.

>Viruses are dependent on other organisms
Most life is dependent on mitochondria.
You could say mitochondria are a separate organism, and there is data that suggests they started out completely independent from us.

Are humans not alive because we are dependent on mitochondria?

>>15257687

Nuh uh ... don't go retard arguing with me there. Like any bacteria I am perfectly capable of autonomously producing all metabolic energy I require as long as I am provided with a suitable chemical energy source. For the example's sake I might even do so photosynthetically.

>>15257696
>as long as I am provided with a suitable chemical energy source.
like a host environment?

>>15257696
>autonomously producing all metabolic energy I require
You seem to be confusing energy with...something else. The amount of energy you produce is zero. All of the energy you can apply comes from your food (or your weird photosynthetic leaves) and in fact it's much less because you expel some as waste matter and energy all the time.

"Metabolic energy" is an arbitrary distinction as it's 1: not 'produced' and 2: still just chemical energy

>>15257616
It's life and if a virus was found on an asteroid or something all of the "I fucking love science" people would be shouting that life had been found outside earth.

>>15257616
Because they can't reproduce and metabolize on their own.
But then all male animals can't reproduce on their own and need an external conduit
So I guess we are viral parasites

>>15257719
>But then all male animals can't reproduce on their own and need an external conduit
most female animals can't either

>>15257680
>>15257687
>>15257701
>>15257724
You are a dense retard.
Viruses can’t establish homeostasis
Viruses can’t replicate their own genome independently
Viruses can’t grow
Viruses can’t metabolize
Viruses don’t reproduce (i.e. create an offspring)
Viruses are not alive, but given the fact you think a human living and extracting resources from an environment to maintain homeostasis, grow, and eventually reproduce under their own power is equivalent to a virus using host cellular machinery I know you have 0 biological knowledge and won’t find any answer that doesn’t confirm your preformed conclusions satisfactory.

>>15257679
> There isn't even any evidence that RNA does what we are told it does.
Lol
> Because they cannot get foreign material in cells without the cells attacking it or inducing self destruction.
Lolz
> It is a meme, never proven because it is unobservable nor a producable effect.
Lmao
Thanks for the good laugh retard.

>>15257616
What do you mean by "reproduce"? There's asexual and sexual reproduction. Viruses do neither.

>>15257616
Also, according to cell theory, all living things are composed of cells, and that the cell is the smallest unit of life, therefore viruses can't be alive, at least in our definitions.

>>15257616
>smartphones evolve, have brands, can heave live or dead batteries, can be produced!
Viruses reproduce same way smartphones do, through parasitism, and are even less alive than your plastic rectangle of doom.

>>15258301
If it is so laughable show me the explicit study or experiment in which they showed that RNA is translated by ribosomes into proteins.
Show me how they proved and how they observed all the steps required.

>>15257616
Are bacteriophages actually designed things? Why do they look like that? Why are they so inorganic looking?
And not like a god thing like intelligently by some other race of beings?? Nanomachines?

>>15259266

>>15259248
There’s been thousand you low IQ retard, it literally a fundamental part of molecular biology. Here’s just one that also happens to reference other studies, but there is thousands more as I said:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1370481/

Also basic studies with ribosomes aren’t that hard, just drop some RNA, amino acids, GTP, and a ribosome into a solution and you’ll get proteins; if you only put RNA, GTP, and amino acids into a solution nothing will happen; similarly if you put only ribosomes, GTP, and amino acids into a solution nothing will happen.

>>15259290
>it literally a fundamental part of molecular biology.

Then why does no experiment show cellular ribosomes produce proteins?

This is a extremly specific and contaminated experiement, which literally has nothing to do with the claim that:
RNA enters a cell or is already in it, and then the ribosome uses the RNA to produce a protein.

In that experiment they do not produce a protein.
A polypeptide is already added and they elongate it, while also mixing in bazillion different contaminants.
"ribosomes synthesize poly(Phe) in an elongation-factor-dependent manner".

And in their OWN control, peptide beads formed in the ABSENCE of ribosomes:
"denoted “tethered beads,” was only observed in the presence of biotinylated long-chain poly(U). Control experiments in the absence of 70S ribosomes showed that a few beads were localized at the surface whether or not short poly(U) was added."

Do you even read what you post?
The causal releationship between RNA, Ribosomes and Peptides is not clear and only "accalerated" in the presence of ribosomes.
Cells without Nucleus produces proteins, even though there is no RNA present.
There is no clears chain of causality.

>>15257616
there are no "they" in real reality, they exist only in movies and tales from government.

>>15259266
viruses will usually have a helical or icosahedral shape to them, a bacteriophage is similarly an icosahedral shape. For viruses the icosahedral shape can have a lot of benefits for helping with sturdiness and virus assembly. Genetic info is stored in the head, so this being icosahral helps protect that important info. some shapes are just favored by nature, like how crystals form, things just take weird shapes.
Biological drawings also make things look a bit more inorganic by exagerating stuff, but even looking at em images of bacteriophages they look funky I'll admit

>>15257616
The infected cells are "alive" phase of the virus

>>15257687
Anon think about it like this. You could put a virus in the perfect broth to sustain the majority of living organisms. It's full of nutrients, has an intermediate pH, the top is full of oxygen, the bottom is devoid of it. There is a place there for almost all living things (microscopically speaking). You could leave a virus in there for a million years, and it would never be able to make another copy of itself. Because it relies on the biological machinary of living organisms to reproduce, and is therefore not alive

>>15257616
Televisions do all those things too when you realize that viruses evolve and reproduce indirectly using something else's metabolism rather than reproducing on their own. Are televisions alive?

>>15257671
This. Viruses and bacteria are not real. Diseases are spread by bad air and foul smells that make you sick.

>>15259269
>>15259266
>full of triangles
>weak and useless by themselves
>infiltrate and hijack aka subverting and destroying
those bacteriophages are pretty based

>>15261063
>Viruses and bacteria are not real.
viruses arent.

Bacteria are.
But they are not cause of disease.
They are decomposing organisms.
Anyone with an ordinary microscope, without staining or alteration of samples can see them.

>>15257616
um they dont have an um um umm metabolamism

Take the virocell pill. The infected cell is the living being, the viruses are its reproductive spores.

>>15261161
Interesting, I wonder what Prof Levine would say about this.

>>15257651
Rickettsia is considered alive but still needs a host cell to survive and reproduce.

>>15261167
he gonna be levin summa deez later

>>15257616
guess what!

>>15261063
this. talks about viruses reproduce via MSM and paid shills

>>15260602
why do you work for big pharma?

>>15258520
200iq take
>posted from my rectangle of doom

>>15257616
>How can you argue they aren't alive
they don't have a metabolism

>>15257713
the implication here is that there is cellular life from where ever it originated from, proving there's extraterrestrial life. The "I fucking love science" plebbitors are smarter than you're moronic ass

>>15257616
Imagine believing Louis Pasteur.

>>15257616
Nice pictures by the way. In real, it looks like an exosome, because it is an exosome.

>>15261965
I bet you are one of the "I fucking love science" plebbitors.
that's why you are too stupid to understand his point.

>>15257616
let's say you have a file that you suspect has been corrupted by a computer virus. what do you do?
>have a program randomly read 150-digit sequences of 0s and 1s from the file
>stop when you have 56 million of them
>have another program assemble the virus code by putting the 150-bit pieces together >obtain 1.7 million sequences of binary code
>have a third program compare the sequences you've just generated with binary codes of known computer viruses
>find a 89% match
>claim that you have found a new computer virus and that you have its code
In computer science you would get fired on the spot. In virology you win a Nobel prize.

>>15258297
>extracting resources from an environment
>using host cellular machinery
you've defeated yourself

>>15258297
shill, time to take meds, unironically

>>15257616

Life itself is not alive.

>>15263697
define life, faggot

>>15257616
Life requires reproduction within it’s own species. There’s not a mommy virus and daddy virus making baby virus. It’s part of the formal definition of life via Biology. I don’t agree with it, but that’s why virus aren’t “Alive”.

>How can you argue they aren't alive
by choosing a definition of "living" that excludes viruses
you're just arguing over definitions

>>15257616
>the virgin coronavirus
>The CHAD bacteriophage

>>15263724
moreover, never really isolated lol

>>15257616
>Reproduce
Reproduce != replicate
>>live and die
>Stating they can live as an argument to proof they are alive
Do macro-molecules that can replicate themselves live?

Its just a simple matter of not having consensus of what living means. One can discuss what living means but it is meaningless to discuss whether viruses live or not. It doesn't change anything anyway which classification word that we made up we throw at it.

>>15263858
Inject yourself with the unfiltered untreated blood of an active HIV / AIDs patient who is not on any drug or treatment regiment, on LIVESTREAM directly after they take a confirmed positive rapid HIV assay and then come back.
Otherwise, kill yourself on livestream.
You
Won't
Do
Shit

>>15263870
pure propaganda, not scientific approach, "proof by fear". pathetic, shill.

>>15263867
to live is to make choices. all living stuff are basically bio factories that process energy. plants convert solar energy in sugars etc. animals eating plants convrt it into other stuff. life is one huge bio machine.

>>15263873
>t. retard, coward

>>15263896
yep, I don't do anything shill says. :)

>>15263902
You don't do shit
You won't do shit
You will never be shit
Faggot, tranny enthusiast, cock lover
Lmao definitely not white either I can say that for sure
>Verification not required

>>15263907
you are losing, shill. now take meds lol

>>15257616
> Computer program is computer.
This guy probably.

>>15263925
>shill
>now take meds
What else you got since you're a confirmed coward and tranny enthusiast. Bring something else to the table other than your tranny lover

>>15261063
The reason for these lies about bacteria and viruses existing is to prevent people from using simple and free remedies to cure themselves.

In the old days they knew what to do, they would purge the body with blood letting and trepanning, emptying out the evil spirits, bad air and foul smells. But today, no, they just want to sell you fake medicine for a fake ailment.

>>15263928
arguing by ad hominem. pathetic, shill, unoriginal.

>>15263932
>Self testing to prove my hypothesis is unscientific
Lol niggerfaggot tranny enthusiast wrong again
>Some skepticism was expressed initially, but within a few years multiple research groups had verified the association of H. pylori with gastritis and, to a lesser extent, ulcers.[172] To demonstrate H. pylori caused gastritis and was not merely a bystander, Marshall drank a beaker of H. pylori culture. He became ill with nausea and vomiting several days later. An endoscopy 10 days after inoculation revealed signs of gastritis and the presence of H. pylori. These results suggested H. pylori was the causative agent. Marshall and Warren went on to demonstrate antibiotics are effective in the treatment of many cases of gastritis.
>Inb4 'bacteria don't exist'
>Inb4 'bacteria don't cause illness'
You will never be shit
>Verification not required

Why is this board filled with schizos

>>15263999
Why do sane people think they're in good company?

>>15257616
>Viruses live and die
Begging the question. Viruses can be destroyed, but so can all sorts of presumably non-living complex systems, e.g. laptops.

Computer viruses have species and evolve. Experiments on digital virus replication do require specialized environments, but that is true of growing viruses in labs too.

What is life? If we define it information theoretically than viruses seem alive, but so do computer viruses, and potentially memes, corporations, associations, states, etc.

>>15263999
Removed from every other corner of the internet so they come here cuz it's the most mainstream website that doesn't ban them

>>15264010
>potentially memes, corporations, associations, states, etc.
Where does Constantinople live?
[points to my heart]

>>15264021
And it does. Ideas have real explanatory power in higher level systems. Central to the empirically observable phenomena of economic recessions, which have a huge physical impact world wide, is the "paradox of thrift," where by people thinking their is a recession (presumably something that exists as a very diffuse pattern encoded in the neurons of perhaps billions of individuals), helps lead to a recession.

That information theoretic approaches to state transition work so well helps support this idea.

The universe is a crazy place, information encoding itself in ever higher levels of emergence in a sort of fractal recurrence.

>>15263878
Trees, bacteria, viruses, politicians, etc don't really make choices though.
I dislike that definition of living.

>>15261171
Doesn’t use the host cell machinery to do so you retard, also viruses don’t reproduce, they replicate

>>15262582
You’re an idiot.

>>15264175
viruses don't, of course. you missed shills in your list lol

>>15264182
they don't. shills replicate though.

>>15264182
Lmfao binary fission is replication you god damned retard

>>15257616
no metabolism.

>>15265019
Some viruses come with their own ribosomes you know

If viruses aren't alive, do they still fall somewhere within the tree of life? Or are they another thing entirely?

>>15257616
everything is alive if your an animist go talk to a stone.

>>15264182
"Residing free in the cytosol of the host cell, they acquire many necessary components via transport mechanisms instead of maintaining genes for synthesizing sugars, lipids, nucleotides, and amino acids. Indeed, Rickettsia can parasitize host ATP via exchange of ADP through translocation systems"

Try again retard

>>15265466
yeah, unknown words overwhelm cattles mind and cattle thinks it must be true. first proven by Bible.

>>15257673
reproduce at the end, it seems you're fighting your own bias and suspect that they are alive