/sci/ - Science & Math

Trolls: Take religious discussion onto 4chan's /sci/ to try and obtain a 2/10. Fail to meet quota.

1/10

Christians: unsystematic charity (USA)
Atheists: best social system known to man (Norway)

>clothe the naked

wait, really? they do that? what, do they strap them down and force them clothes? thats fucked up man

>>1521789
Enjoy your absurd taxes and paying for a homeless guy's healthcare.

>>1521794
well that's the point. we just took charity and made it into an institution.

>>1521794

>>1521794
>being retarded
>What that meant to any normal human being
>Have fun paying a little money to help your fellow human beings

Sure, I ain't got no problems with that.

>>1521795
Charity is by definition voluntary.

>>1521794
you'd rather let the poor guy die? how very christian of you.

I don't mind paying for a homeless guy's healthcare, I really don't mind giving a little money to a lot of people, along with everyone else, in my country

as opposed to one person helping one person, it's many people helping many people a bit

as for atheist and christian, what a silly troll, the terms are conservative and liberal, silly

I wish there was a political board

>>1521802
citizenship of a democratic country is voluntary as well.

if you don't want to pay taxes, you're free to move to somalia.

>>1521800
If you are happy with giving up a significant portion of the money you earn to pay for a drug addict with no healthcare or a guy who has never held a job then you are a complete pushover.
Typical eurotrash.

>>1521805
Or I could just stay in the United States.

>>1521806
implying quality of life is better in the ALMIGHTY USA.
If i remember correctly, only california is high amongst rankings of quality of life, and it's remarkably european

You're confusing atheism with libertarianism. I happen to be an atheist libertarian, but there's actually very little overlap between the two groups. Most atheists are leftists, and most libertarians are Christians.

>>1521806
typical conservative talking point.

but these people are a very small minority compared to people to whom the social system really helps.

>>1521806
Who says I pay an obscene tax rate?

I'm a student.

>>1521806

true, or I could move from canada to the US in a couple years

whatever

it's funny, I've officially been a burden to society, and a contributor now

I've decided to study the system a bit and see if there might be a relatively easy way to change how governance works for the better, perhaps a few small things could use sprucing up within government or organizations

>>1521804
I don't mind helping a homeless guy either, depending on his situation.

However, there is no way of knowing if said homeless guy is a lifelong leecher who has never worked in his life or some drug addict. You don't know anything about their personalities either, if they are kind or if they are horrible people.

Unless I know for certain who my money is going to, I would never take a chance on throwing away my hard earned money on this.

It just punishing people who work hard and rewarding the lazy. Enjoy your socialism.

>>1521812
>califailia
>remarkably european

gay capital of america
full of hateful liberals
full of gaythiest elitists
full of illegal immigrants
shitty economy
bad social policies

yup, its europe alright.

>>1521816
>Most atheists are leftists
maybe in america, with it's ridiculous political scene that's divided between religious conservatives and everyone else.

>>1521826
I would expect the same thing in Europe, when there are far more atheists and far more leftists.

>>1521817
Col job spewing an unsupported claim with no evidence in order to desperately convince yourself that your shitty healthcare system is good.

>>1521822
>>1521822
>>1521822
>>1521822
>>1521822
>>1521822

>>1521831
Correlation does not imply causation.

>>1521822
>implying poor people are poor because they're lazy
yeah, those factory workers who work 14 hours a day to feed their family sure are lazy

>>1521822

it appears you miss the point of helping others out, it's to make their lives better

leeches will not overfill the ranks in social democratic countries, even if they get to be a bit higher up in numbers

they usually end up contributing a bit anyways, I know of a lot of people on wellfare who while they can't get off of it, try to find a little work for extra cash, it's not much cash, but it makes the difference between living at such a low rate income you're close to starving and living with a few minor comforts, and of course since they're spending all their money, the small bit of work they do in fact goes into the economy anyways

but it's nothing big, welfare's not something fun, and when you get libertarian groups in charge, the support to get off one's ass doesn't really come, I'm lucky since I'm self motivated and always have been, but I'm a rarity, most people just aren't, probably even the OP

drug addicts can be taken care of and taken off the drugs and put into counseling, there is a degree of forcing them to go into recovery when they're far gone

the viewpoint that socialism suffers from welfare queen-itis is overblown and incorrect, there are welfare queens, but there always are in any place that has any charity

>>1521834
The japenese sure do know 'merica all right

>>1521840
You can't know for certain which is true.
They could be lifetime slackers, or they could be sweatshop workers.

My point was that if you don't know which your money is going to, its stupid to take that chance. But I guess socialism leaves you no choice.

also, the welfare that goes to the people who stimulate the economy?

it's like a stimulus package that keeps going, on and on and on and on and on

and it's self guiding

granted, the problem is the people don't work, but you know what?

we're at a stage where quite honestly, if work hours/productivity was equally divided, I'm willing to bet everyone would work 6 hours a day instead of 8, and the pay would have to of course go up by 25%

and do you honestly believe that's going to happen?

teehee, also canada's doing better than the US in the recovery from the housing market crash

>>1521829
>unsupported claim with no evidence
i didn't see you posting any evidence for claim that significant portion of money we earn goes to support for drug addicts.

>>1521840
No, they just have little capital compared to the West.

Simple economics.

>>1521847
Or maybe it's like my logic when donating blood.

Some asshat might get this but it's more likely it'll get to someone who needs it.

A pre maturely born kid, mum in labour, someone who was in a nasty car crash.

Christians aren't christian anymore

>>1521858
>Implying Keynesian economics makes sense.

ITT: - Religious saying they are charitable and that atheists are not. The the religious/american say europe/atheists pay too much to help homeless.

OP dont know the most people who are homeless, clotheless and hungry are people who follow a religion.

inb4 u r trolled trololo

>>1521861

I'm really not sure what keynsian economics is

productivity per person goes up, to maintain the traditional expansionist capitalism, you have to either get people to buy more stuff, or to find more people who'll buy stuff

luckily we still have africa and asia to buy more stuff, and even south america

but around here, expansions' slowing down, a lot of the stuff is simple "make work/make market" stuff right now anyways, at least economically

the fact that canada regulated it's businesses is what kept it safe from the crash, and to back up the notion, businesses denied loans are doing fairly well post-crash as well


I'm not saying everyone SHOULD be working 6 hours, at 25% higher wages, what I am saying is that if one were to magically make work homogenous and equal (note how I didn't say fair) that's what would be the case

I don't get complex economics, or maybe I just iterated one without knowing it

I just look at the basic stuff
"make stuff, sell stuff"
"capitalism is make more and more, sell more and more, expand expand"

and make rough judgements based on those notions, they're not concrete but they're fairly simple and intuitive

there's all kinds of factors that can change it, which is why I like to keep my economic terms

VERY simple

>>1521838
I claimed neither correlation nor causation.

>>1521897
>I would expect the same thing in Europe, when there are far more atheists and far more leftists.

To me that implied that the atheists were leftists, my mistake if you meant otherwise.

>>1521880
Keynesian economics is the bullshit idea that a stimulus package increases productivity and employment. It's a load of inconsistent, illogical, self-contradictory, disproved fallacious vague idiotic ideas.

Keynesian economics can be boiled down to you starving, not because you haven't harvested enough food to eat, but because you're not hungry enough. It's the utterly false idea that the problem isn't producing stuff, the problem is consuming stuff. It's a complete reversal of the actual economic problem. The actual economic problem isn't "oh boy how can I ever eat all of this", but "how can I employ my resources so as to derive the greatest utility from them?"

Keynes was a joke of an economist. He had NO theory of PRODUCTION. Production is what economics is about. Keynes had NO theory whatsoever of how production works, he just took it for given.

www.mises.org Educate yourself.

>>1521852
Not my fault you are a total pushover.

Or maybe you're just rich. The only people that wouldn't mind this are super rich people or saints(Or stubborn Europeans clinging to their foolish principles like usual), which I doubt are very commonplace.

Conservativism is the ideology of choice for anyone either too stupid or too evil to let go of their childish black-and-white worldview. Conservatives are literally mental children.

>>1521919
If being a decent human being makes me a pushover then I've got no problems with that.

>>1521919
Are you a troll or just an idiot?

>>1521919
or normal christians, as OP implied?

anyway, nice of you to admit that americans are in fact selfish assholes.

>>1521928
You could say that about anything.

It's cute how Americans still cling to their false sense of superiority when they're the only first world country failing to recover from the economic meltdown (which THEY started due to their retarded refusal to regulate their banks because HURR DURR FREE MARKET *shits diaper*)

>>1521928

you clearly don't understand conservatism at all

and I'm not even a conservative (too much, I go between the two from issue to issue, depending on what the best course of aciton is)

>>1521954
Yeah the Federal reserve is SOOOO free market.

>>1521954
>only first world country failing to recover from the economic meltdown

They're not the only one by any means

reported

According to this, Christians=communists.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHtNFZ6K0pE&feature=channel

"the superclass"

I found the guy made sense, my general views on the subject are akin to his, based on my experience in dealing with people and observing the role of leaders in various contexts

I haven't given any thought to power shifts myself and so I don't have enough info to judge him on that, his rundown of what's going on here and now, does seem about right

it's an interesting video and it keeps it simple, which I like

>>1521974
I don't know why many christians are opposed to socialism. Christian values are very compatible with socialist ones.

>>1521985
Cause it's not conservative usually and it leads to the downfall of society.

Young girls dress in mini skirts and stockings

Everyone smokes weed, and LSD

And Guys stop beating their woman and allow them to stand equally along side them

>>1521985

depends on definition of socialism. also the type of christian:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations

christians just do that because they are required by their god to spread their faith if they want to get into heaven. When an atheist helps someone it's because they genuinely care.

People still think unregulated capitalism is a sustainable economic model even after it nearly plunged the entire fucking world into a depression?

lol.

>>1522036
Do you think the Federal Reserve is a capitalist institution?

>>1522044
You have a very warped view of what actually caused the recession.

>>1522036
No civilized society has ever had straight capitalism.

The United States is corporatist, not capitalist.

Clothe the naked? Is that really an issue? Most of the peoples I know that don't have clothes do it voluntarily, i.e. tribes in Africa where if they dressed anymore they would probably get heat stroke.

>>1522080
Old term which is applied to modern situations, the home less need new clothes, food and at least a hostel or somewhere they can stay for a few night, soup kitchens and shit are for them

Herp derp
>implying Atheists do not participate in charity

>>1522108
Religious people give more per person, even to secular charities.

>>1522053
Please tell me, what is my view of what caused the recession?

>>1522122
[citation needed]

Also, i can tell you thats wrong because most christians pray for people expecting that to help, while secularists are buzy getting their hands dirty actually helping

>>1522122
Bull fucking shit they do, I'd be donating blood every fucking month if the laws allowed it, and all I get for that is a bit of chocolate and a fucking cup of orange juice.

...and a small badge that I forgot to pick up last time.

>>1521909

well, production occurs

I wasn't really using the term stimulus package in any particularly proper way actually, I was just basically saying it throws money into the economy via having poor people have money for the "hell of it" almost (well not really, it's charity/welfare, you know what it's for)

and they just spend without really producing so much

but because we're an economic power in canada at least, with a lot of money/wealth, we're basically creating demand for supplies without producing them

so it like... it's a way of upping demand without upping supply really?

at least directly
the other way to do it would be to do what I just said basically

and we know that's never going to really happen, at least in the near future, in canada anyways

>>1522130
i get donuts & coffee whenever i give blood, your place sucks ass

>>1522136
>Donuts

Damn man, I feel cheated now.

Oh well, sucks I can't donate for around another year cause I got a tattoo.

>>1522134
But in the aggregate demand EQUALS and is IDENTICAL to supply. It's called Say's law and Keynes denial of it is a source of many of his fallacies.

You can only increase monetary demand by, say, printing money. All that leads to is a redistribution of goods and an eventual rise in prices.

Real demand cannot rise without real supply rising, for ultimately, demand equals and is identical to supply. Every good sold is a good bought.

this isn't about christians and atheists, really the words christian and atheist are bywords of conservative and liberal

there was a youtube talk that laid out the basic tenets of humanity, and described how they both approached the same tenets, or rather how they got to them

was interesting

independent charities for conservatives, state run charities for liberals

really? both have pros and cons, both are in existence because without one or the other, the system would be very bad indeed

they also approach crime differently, and so on

it's pretty retarded to have the conservative/liberal debate in the first place, it's like a grade 2 thing

"daddy has to beat up the bad men who'll hurt you"

"daddy has to teach you how to deal with bad people yourself, through avoidance, numbers and talking"

that's kinda how it goes

and to be honest, both are required

captcha: drum'n'bass, gored

drum'n'bass

sweet word.

>>1522131
http://www.aei.org/book/939

>Also, i can tell you thats wrong because most christians pray for people expecting that to help, while secularists are buzy getting their hands dirty actually helping

Lol, what a stupid statement

none of the chruchs in my city allow homeless to sleep there

bad for image

>>1522151

well what I said isn't really increasing demand at a macro level, it's more maintaining it as employment falls

you know?

because like I said, it'd be 6 hours at 33% more (sorry 25% is the wrong number, it's 33% more money) per hour

or 25% of the people get 8 hours worth of money, and the other 75% work at the same rate (100% instead of 133% for everyone)

you know?