/sci/ - Science & Math

Meritocracy. We gave up on the dumb ones.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJQUQh57Lzs

>>15194034
>USA is a meritocracy
Kek. Oh, wait. You're serious. Let me laugh harder. Ahahahahahahahah

>>15194029
Look at Vietnam, Russia and China. Good scores in mathematics, yet complete shitholes. Mathematics skills alone are not enough to succeed, you need to apply them properly.

Now show scores for different races.

>>15194046
Singapore is no. 1. And they didn't produce any great or even notable mathematician.
It's like doing well in IMO or Putnam. It's the best indicator of a successful math career, and yet it's still a shit indicator.

>>15194053
>And they didn't produce any great or even notable mathematician.
Dude, their population is smaller than the US' by more than 50x. You have to factor that in.

>>15194029
https://foxbaltimore.com/news/project-baltimore/state-test-results-23-baltimore-schools-have-zero-students-proficient-in-math-jovani-patterson-maryland-comprehensive-assessment-program-maryland-governor-wes-moore

>>15194057
The key factor for Singapore isn't population size, it's economics: research mathematics doesn't get you 300k starting, so it doesn't get taken seriously as a career path.

>>15194029
This comparison of educational systems is deeply unfair. The US is a racially diverse society and given that black and hispanic people have worse genetics for intelligence, you can't expect math education to be as effective for them as it is for white and southeast asian people.
If you break the results down by race, you'll see results that are unsurprising for a country that pours so much money into education. US whites do better than almost all white countries, US hispanics do better than all hispanic countries, and US blacks do better than all black countries. It's just the averaging together of different races that obscures how good the US' education system really is by international standards.

>>15194029
suprised ireland is that high considered our education system is dogshite.

>>15194074
This post is very based and I believe it but you should back that up with data if you want to convince anyone

>>15194073
Why bother with meme answer? And that's BS. A lot of them study in prestigious institutions in the West. With the plan to migrate.
You do realize the current PM of Singapore studied Math in Cambridge, right? Senior Wrangler at that.

>>15194029
It's not that US is so advanced despite the poor math education, it's more like poorer countries are just much better at math because they can't afford to fund any other practical subject, which will require labs and technology, etc. Math is really the only useful academic subject that does not require much funding. These countries are also often better at theoretical aspects of sciences.

>>15194060
I can't read.
Someone copypaste or dump an archive for Europoors.

>>15194053
So who is the American equivalent of Euler/Gauss/Newton/Jacobi?

>>15194074
>US whites do better than almost all white countries, US hispanics do better than all hispanic countries, and US blacks do better than all black countries.
You forgot to mention that our Chinese also beat China's at IMO :D

>>15194081
Picture is from from https://www.unz.com/isteve/the-new-2018-pisa-school-test-scores-usa-usa/
Yes, the author is really quite right-wing, but the data checks out as far as I can tell.

>>15194073
Is this much different in the US? Math postdoc and professor salaries are rather famously lower than what you can get in finance, or even as a data scientist running linear regressions for marketing departments.

>>15194088
They aren't better when you adjust for race though. See >>15194074

>>15194034
The exact opposite. We abandoned meritocracy in favor of diversity. We're abolishing objective standards left and right

>>15194653
Europoor here so not up to date on your politics, but isn't that a California-only problem?

>>15194669
the parable of the hens and the ducks

>>15194669
Unfortunately, California policies like this are like a cancer or parasite -- they quickly metastasize to the rest of the nation. It always works the same way. First other leftist states like Oregon, Washington, Virginia, and New York, adopt the same policies. Then, Democrat shithole cities in red states pick them up. Then, this coalition takes over federal policy (in this case, through the board of education and national teacher's union) and makes it required for all. It quickly gets to the point that only places that actively resist the changes can avoid them.

As one small example, Thomas Jefferson high school in Virginia used to be one of the best and most selective high schools in the world. Even they replaced their admissions exam with a lottery for the sake of diversity. Performance has already fallen off a cliff.

>>15194669
>>15194714
It has really been a slow race to the bottom ever since they gutted the SAT back in 1995. Pretty much every new proposal from that point has made our education system less objective and less rigorous while diverting more resources to the lowest common denominator. They've crippled the MCAT and GRE, made the LSAT optional, put "social-emotional learning" in math textbooks. And don't get me started on NCLB and common core.

>>15194029
Diversity. Homogeneous European and Asian countries do well. The more Africans you add into the mix, the worse scores you get.

>>15194742
socialism is about equality, everyone must be the same, you can't raise people up but you can sure as hell drag everyone else down to the bottom and create even more victim groups to leverage for your own political power.

>>15194029
Brazilbros, I don't feel so good...

>>15194029
>Why does the US have mediocre math education scores despite being one of the richest, most powerful, and most technologically advanced countries on Earth?
Because education is contraproductive if your shithole relies on subhumans scum killing everyone and betray the rest. Already described in old greek sagas that scum like that is incapable to understand

>>15194714
>>15194742
I thought it was new, but apparently the trend of gutting meritocracy in favor of diversity has been going on since 1995? That's pretty bad, I hope you guys manage to reverse this. In my country at the end of high school you just get assigned a number, take a bunch of exams, and then the universities take the top applicants based on a public formula. I don't see why a university would use some kind of subjective essay or diversity step.

>>15194749
>The more Africans you add into the mix, the worse scores you get.
the more jews you add to the mix, the greater the demand is for open border immigration policies, welfare gibes for immigrants and "tolerance" of 3rd world attitudes and living standards

>>15194046
China is in a growing trend. A century ago only a handful of chinese people would know Calculus. In another century they might be ahead of everyone.

>>15194872
>1995
that was just when they changed the american SAT system to disguise the fact that blacks and mexicans are dumb. but you can go to at least the early 80s if you follow the teahing union agendas

>>15194885
they used leninism and the cultural revolution to destroy china, now that they have solidified the powerbase there and they are building it up. america is the next target, another key goal is the reduction of ethnically european peoples that pose a direct threat to their power

>>15194053
>Singapore is no. 1. And they didn't produce any great or even notable mathematician.
Yeah but they make fucking bank trading currencies and commodities lmfao who gives a fuck about 'math'

>>15195479
>Yeah but they make fucking bank trading currencies and commodities
No, they don't. By all metrics, they are shit compared to the real wealthy first-world countries. I notice the only people who idolize Singapore are other poor Asians. Probably brain-damaged from the malnutrition.

>>15194872
>reverse this
it's too late. more than 50% of under18s are nonwhite, anon.

>>15194029
>US is on par with Israel
Noggin' joggin'.

>>15194885
>he thinks humans will be doing mathematics a century from now

>>15195546
I don't mean demographic trends, just the trend of making educational assessment and admission less and less objective.

>>15195574
demographic trends are the reasons for everything becoming less and less objective, anon.

>>15195579
How so? My impression is that this kind of thing is mostly pushed by educated white people who are deep into the woke ideology, not the minorities themselves.

>>15194029
>Why does the US have mediocre math education scores despite being one of the richest, most powerful, and most technologically advanced countries on Earth?
Minorities lower the average by a huge margin.

>>15194029
>my country is actually mentioned
but it's low... :(

>>15194074
/thread

>>15194872
>I thought it was new, but apparently the trend of gutting meritocracy in favor of diversity has been going on since 1995?
1995 was when the trend started in earnest, but it was still very slow and nonthreatening at the time. 7 years later it took another step forward with No Child Left Behind. Then another one with Common Core. However, it was only in the last 5 years that the left dropped any pretense of caution or hesitancy and decided to overthrow meritocracy entirely. Now they are tearing down everything at once.

Unfortunately, I will be very surprised if we can reverse course at this point. The system multiplies itself by indoctrinating new generations in the leftist mind virus. Probably the best outcome we can hope for at this point is a national divorce.

>>15194029
no respect for good teachers. retards think they can learn everything from the internet

>>15194872
>but apparently the trend of gutting meritocracy in favor of diversity has been going on since 1995
Considering the research output of American institutions, it doesn't really matter, right?

>>15194074
>those PISA stats

So does this mean that US Blacks are now 88-90IQ? Because them doing better Malaysia, Romania, Bulgaria, Uruguay, Moldova, Mexico and Thailand clearly puts them above an 87IQ average.

It would also still hold the standard deviation gap between blacks and whites since that chart basically puts US whites as 103-105IQ.

>>15195949
The poor people from those poor countries probably experience malnutrition that impact their brain function. Really sad really.
Although Vietnam certainly does just fine, produced quite a few important mathematician. Including a Field Medalist. I guess it's the French math education.

>>15194074
>hurrr hurr muh hecking racerino whites based
Kys José Johnson

>>15195972
Yeah, the whole situation with Vietnam is interesting because they're clearly punching above their weight better than any other country.

https://www.vietnam.com/en/news/article/vietnamese-students-among-top-performers-in-pisa-survey.html

Not sure what they're doing with their education program but others could clearly learn from it.

>>15194029
strictly economic factors

>>15194029
It's deliberate sabotage by Jewry.

>>15194107
>So who is the American equivalent of Euler/Gauss/Newton/Jacobi?
Hilary Putnam, John von Neumann, Saul Kripke, Howard Curry, Alonzo Church

>>15196195
>Howard Curry
Did you mean Haskell Curry?

Intelligence is mostly genetic, and not a product of environment. It doesn't matter that the US is rich and has lots of great universities. None of that causes people to be intelligent.

>>15196195
> Von Neumann
> Kripke

Nice names my man.

>>15194714
>As one small example, Thomas Jefferson high school in Virginia used to be one of the best and most selective high schools in the world. Even they replaced their admissions exam with a lottery for the sake of diversity. Performance has already fallen off a cliff.

>>15194029
this basically mirrors how much societies and nations value science and education

>>15194034
>Meritocracy

Mediocracy

>>15196200
stephen curry

>>15194048
This.
Our asians are at about 550.
Our whites are just above 500.
Hispanics are around 450.
Our blacks are in the low 400s.
It's funny that I cant find any racial data after 2012.
I guess it is better for our education sector's money begging if we only use the sandbagged average.
The extremes at both ends of our politics would be happy to weaponize the racial differences.

>>15195989
An MMA fighter?

>>15196230
Does Signapore value science that much?

>>15198422
No. They are just larping as a 1st world country during the schooling stage. It's a backward authoritarian country.

>>15194034
Exact opposite. We are actually defunding elite schools based on test scores because they're not diverse enough. It's happening in NYC where elite schools are dominated by Asian American immigrants. Something like 70% Asian Americans at the school are also so poor that they quality for food stamps and lunch reduction cost programs. So it's not even about poor vs rich, it's just racial diversity that they care about. The har working Asian American students gets fucked over as their accelerated learning classes are dismantled and shutdown.

This happens everywhere with liberal enclaves. Northeast around NYC, NW around Washington state, and SW around California. Asians are also classified as "white adjacent" now, so you can discriminate against them and get away with it. And yes that's a title used by the official school departments and within the liberal wing of the government.
Meritocracy is dead in the US. That's is on top of affirmative action based caps on higher ed's for out performers.

>>15194029
A shit curriculum.
Simple as

Also the method the US uses to fund their schools is downright retarded. Basically the same as gerrymandering bs.

>>15196202
You are misunderstanding the data completely.

The data is about math understanding before uni.

Doesn't matter if you lot have decent universities if your basic education fucking reeks.

>>15198441
Authoritarian yes, but backwards? Aren't they actually very modern?

I would ask "why is this purely political question which has nothing to do with math or science and importantly is not just genuine, honest etc question but not an actual question period and is just part of tsunami of diarrhea of social engineering, propaganda, brainwashing etc with the name "America bad" or "Russia/China rocks, America sucks" is doing here?" if I didn't know who (or "what", to be more to the truth) runs this board and entire website.

Not only is this /pol/ as a bare minimum, it's not a question but just a stab and place to shit on America, not find out the truth, as is the meaning of actually asking a question.

>>15201162
This was not to shit on America, but just bait as anyone with 2 working hemispheres knows this>>15194074 is the answer

>>15194029
Let N be...

>>15201145
>>15201162
This isn't to shit on the US, I quite like it. I guess >>15194074 provided the answer though.

>>15194029

The US education isnt mediocre or worse at all. The Russian, Chink, Indian and w e systems aren't better. They are much, much worse. Even though Slavniggers love to be smug and arrogant that they can solve that particularly difficult trick question it means nothing at all in real life.

It's just an illusion because in your eyes performing better in a meaningless test or doing meaningless math gruntwork equals better ability and skills.
Truth is people go one way and one way only and it's from East to West
People from Russia/China/India want to go to EU or US
People from EU want to go to the US
even tho the competition is much more fierce and exams are stricter as you go East

I've experienced a couple of these systems myself and in the US system one thing stands out the most: It's very difficult to fail. This leads to people that are interested in one subject not immediately being filtered and thrown out of their potential careers. There's also many ways you can turn a failure into a potential win, and ways to make up if you are bad at one particular thing. All this shit doesn't exist in the EU, India, Singapore and the likes, where some trigger happy admin is just waiting to drop your ass from the university so he can feel powerful.

In Europe/Eastern Europe most universities filter students with the first couple of math exams in STEM subjects.
In India/China/SEA/Japan most universities filter students with entrance exams that are highly competitive.

All these things seem to be completely meaningless in the end. Why is the US so ahead all the time? Idk, but it seems to have a very good scientific culture that is very open socially.

>>15201113
hyper modern, futuristic

>>15198441
Western faux-democracy (thinly-vieled oligarchial kekistocracy) is the standard for slow decay, not something to aspire to. Even your Western handlers have already settled on open authoritarianism as the future.

>>15202460
Undoubtedly the west is a Judeocracy. but I also don't like the idea of democracy as something to aspire to; most people are simply stupid, giving them a say on something as important as the fate of the nation is ludicrous. Wisdom of the masses only applies to trivial questions such as how many marbles in a fucking jar, not serious topics physics or statistics or biology.

>>15202469
Found a bootlicker.

>>15202469
A social structure/mode of life that requires a """benevolent dictatorship""" to manage everything and lord it over the common man, has no right to exist.

>b-b-b-but modern society is just 2smart4you
Then modern society should be brought down or allowed to implode.

>>15202545
Who said dictatorship. Arguments can be made in favour of autocracy (think Plato's philosopher kings), or epistocracy (something as simple as limiting political participation to those in the 95th percentile in both intelligence and political agency i.e. those that actually think for themselves and not just go along with whatever is popular/the tv tells them).

>>15202552
>Who said dictatorship.
You said dictatorship.

>those in the 95th percentile
Here, you said it again. Either way, everything I wrote still stands regardless of your pointless semantics game.

>Ameritards being like oh but uhm muh notable achievements

I can't think of a SINGLE native born American who has contributed meaningfully to any area of mathematics. And that's besides the point. The fact is, these countries are producing more STEM chads who will go on to become engineers, doctors, scientists. They don't need to all revolutionize mathematics or science in order to be useful. The challenge of our era is to make as many mathematically/technologically skilled workers as possible.

>>15202552
95th percentile in intelligence is an IQ of 125 or above. The overwhelming majority of the people you want to put in charge have demonstrated themselves to be not only brainwashed beyond belief, but lacking in common sense and basic self-preservation instincts. Clearly, the threshold should be set high enough to exclude someone like you from participation.

>>15202558
You did not address the fundamental issue with democracy and that is that most people are too stupid too understand what is needed in order to make important decisions and that even fewer have the agency to not just be a mouth piece for whatever the mainstream thing is.
Take that pic as an example >>15202469. The answer here is, without any doubt, "a lot" or "just about all". But most people polled (and these are just whites btw who tend to be much more intelligent and individualistic than non-whites) had it as none or very little -- obviously most of these people just parrot whatever is socially acceptable.
In order to understand such an important issue as HBD one needs to be able to grasp basic genetics, biology, and evolution, Gaussian distributions, averages, variation, confidence intervals, sampling etc.
For you this might seem simple but for MOST people (yes, >50%) this is difficult and for a significant portion pretty much impossible as they simply lack the ability for abstract and complex thought.
A democracy therefore becomes a rule by ignorance, mediocrity, and is easily manipulated by certain people who can control public opinion (because most of the public constitute relatively low intelligence, low agency types). It is little different from being placed as an adult in a kindergarten and being told that everyone gets one vote and that it is fair; most people are mental children when compared to what is needed to understand "complex" topics.
Feel free to respond, I will probably reply but it will be later as I have to do school work.
>>15202579
That was an example. 125 threshold is a lot better than what we have now. Though sure it could be raised even higher, in addition to adding other criteria (no criminal history, employed, etc.).

>>15202582
>You did not address the fundamental issue with democracy and that is that most people are too stupid too understand what is needed
I specifically addressed that "fundamental issue" and you can't contend with it, so you pretend it never happened.

>>15202584
Where? This
>A social structure/mode of life that requires a """benevolent dictatorship""" to manage everything and lord it over the common man, has no right to exist.
is not an argument. It's a dogmatic assertion. If I missed it please do copy paste and show it to me again

>>15202582
>That was an example. 125 threshold is a lot better than what we have now
It is objectively a lot worse. You're effectively suggesting to establish a free-for-all for the social engineers who currently run society because the overwhelming majority of the 95th percentile can be made to believe and follow anything at all.

>>15202589
I also mentioned political agency.
>because the overwhelming majority of the 95th percentile can be made to believe and follow anything at all.
How does this not apply more so to the remaining 95%?

>>15202588
>Where?
Since you're literally too subhuman for basic reading comprehension, let me dumb it down for you: if your social arrangement is "too smart" for the average person to be able to make sensible decisions, your social arrangement should be gotten rid of. "Fundamental problem" solved.

>>15202591
>I also mentioned political agency.
And I ignored it because it's subjective tripe that means absolutely nothing. It doesn't even deserve acknowledgement.

>How does this not apply more so to the remaining 95%?
Because the remaining 95% includes a large segment of people who at least have a basic sense of self-preservation that midwits lack.

>>15202593
Yeah, that's a baseless assertion that amounts to let's return to being hunter gatherers.
If that's your claim go ahead but it's retarded and not worth discussing.
>>15202597
Agency is certainly something that exists. How to measure it is another matter.

>>15202589

>>15202602
>that's a baseless assertion
You can call it "baseless" all you want, but it definitely refutes your baseless assertion that there's some "fundamental" problem. It's not "fundamental" if it only occurs in the context of a certain kind of braindamaged society.

>>15202616
Thanks for demonstrating my point.

>>15202621
It seems like he just needs to up his cutoff to 135, or something.

>>15202623
Really? Now let's see a third world immigration hesitancy graph.

>>15202626
There probably is a similar upturn at some point. Keep in mind that 100% of humanities majors are leftists with under 135 iq.

>>15202725
>There probably is a similar upturn at some point
My first instinct is to say "prove it", but honestly, it wouldn't make a difference even if it were true. If you say that your political system requires gigabrains to make policy decisions, I know you are shilling a centrally planned society, which immediately exposes you for a retard who simply cannot and will not learn from the mistakes of the past.

>>15194029
it is one of the richest most powerful, and most technologically advanced countries on Earth BECAUSE it doesn't give a shit about deeply teaching math or other fields of study.

Mediocre minds shouldnt be pushed to learn anything more than mediocre math. Its better for them (they should go off making 6 figures a a plumber or welder and supporting the economy). But its also better for the exceptional minds because they will be left alone to study in their own speed, totally separated from all the other mediocre students. Imagine, as a genius, having to contend with nitwits and being forced to study with them...

>>15202738
I don't know how high the reversal will be, and whether it will go up above the average, but obviously it's going to exist.

I'm not shilling anything. I'm just taking issue with the idea that you can generalize intelligent people by looking at academia as a whole.

>>15202756
>I'm just taking issue with the idea that you can generalize intelligent people by looking at academia as a whole.
You're the one who brought up academia in the first place with your chart (that ended up supporting my point). As far as anyone can tell, your so-called "intelligent" people are bred and raised to be perfect cattle regardless of their acedemic credentials.

>>15202738
Not who you are responding to. No one is arguing for a centrally planned economy, though no regulation would be madness.
> If you say that your political system requires gigabrains to make policy decisions
the same way your doctors needs "giga brains" to make important decisions. Or indeed practically anything that matters. From the military to fucking QB in football.
You're dying on a hill out of principle, without solid reasoning and just your axiom
>if your social arrangement is "too smart" for the average person to be able to make sensible decisions, your social arrangement should be gotten rid of

>>15202768
If academia wasn't your basis for claiming high IQ people are easily controlled then what was, exactly?

>>15202774
>what was, exactly?
The behavior and rhetoric of midwits ("high IQ people" by your metrics) of all stripes.

>>15202773
>No one is arguing for a centrally planned economy
Show me where the words "centrally planned economy" appeared in my post.

>the same way your doctors needs "giga brains" to make important decisions
Thanks for confirming my point. You retards simply never learn.

>>15202794
I never said your did mention that, but that is clearly on aspect of a "centrally planned society".
Your MO here is to insult and restate your axiom while doing nothing to try to back it up other than vague platitudes e.g. " which immediately exposes you for a retard who simply cannot and will not learn from the mistakes of the past." . Not very deep, interesting, or thoughtful. Talking with you is a waste of time.

>>15202805
>Your MO here is to insult and restate your axiom
No, my MO here is to BTFO you, like I did by showing that your "fundamental" problem is not "fundamental" in any way.

>>15199301
Lol, you basically just repeated all the points I already made.
>>15194653
>>15194714
>>15194742
>>15195861

Glad to see more people are waking up to the con though.

>>15202469
Jesus Christ, source on that graph? Even if people are lying to pollsters out of fear, that is pretty blackpilling

> Wisdom of the masses only applies to trivial questions such as how many marbles in a fucking jar, not serious topics physics or statistics or biology.
I would phrase it slightly differently as any question that can be answered in a vacuum of pure rationality. However, as soon as you introduce external influences like emotions, social manipulation, personal identity and biases, political tribalism, etc., you can control the conclusions people reach very easily.

>>15194029
cuz american corporations and institutions can simply buy foreign brains

they also have vested interests in keeping other (potential) world powers poor >>15194046 for that very same reason...

>>15194029
because we work hard and make money retard

>>15202789
>i've personally interacted with a representative sample of high iq people but can't say where
ok pseud

>>15202939
>i've personally interacted with a representative sample of high iq people
Yes. Does it make you seethe?

>>15194029
How many Fields Medals does Singapore have?

>>15194074
>It's another "America is allowed to get rid of any troublesome minorities, but all the other countries aren't" episode.

>>15194029
>>15194046
We don't need to be good at math.

We just need to be good at plucking people who are good at math from other countries. It's called brain drain.

>>15202988
America is under 50% white. Maybe about 55% white and east Asian.
Japan is 99% Japanese. China 95% Chinese. Germany is 75-85% German. Iceland 90% Icelandic etc. Estonia is 99% white.

>>15194074
Source on that pisa scores graph you posted?

>>15202988
Tell the other countries to publish results by race

>>15194029
The money isn't spent on education, technological talent is imported.

>>15194749
Bullshit cope. The problem isn't blacks; it is elite whites who want to subvert culture and education, and have been actively doing so for 113 years.

>>15194029
N

>>15202960
>caring about Field Medals in the era of A.I.

They're playing the long con, who gives a fuck about shiny trinkets if you can become the brokers of machine learning. Thus ruling over the commerce of midwits.

>>15202988
>romania in red
>studends win international math events for decades in a row
>throw a bunch gypsies who never went to first grade in the study for an accurate number
>lol

>>15194074
>US whites do better than almost all white countries
Hahahaha. No. Your education system is so fucked, you can't even outsmart Scandinavians. Even Germans who degraded their system in a similar way to yours still outsmart you.

>>15194714
The SAT was never an adequate admissions test compared to what they have in Europe or Asia.

>>15204002
>source: my ass
>>15203822
>(((fellow whites)))
And it obviously is in large part blacks, unless you're trying to make the case they are not genetically less intelligent.

>>15203325
https://nces.ed.gov/surveys/pisa/pisa2018/#/
Page 16.

>>15204271
>source
I've actually met Americans IRL. Lots of 'em. They're the most superficial and ignorant people on earth (that I have met). My sample size is big. My methods are sane. Double blind etc.
Also this https://www.quora.com/How-do-Scandinavian-schools-compare-to-US-schools

>>15204306
I live in America. I have family in Europe.
But personal anecdotes don't matter. Using the data we can see American whites (it is unclear whether """white hispanic""" is included in this category, but let's ignore that) does better than nearly every European nation, including those that are 90%+ white. Notably they also do better than Japan, Korea, Taiwan, and by extension mainland China. Also you can reasonably extrapolate within what range the natives score. For example Sweden scores at 502. Suppose the actual Swedes scored the same as white Americans -- 521. Non-whites rapefugees up about 10% of the Swedish population, but now say this is 2x represented among the youth. So they make up 20% of 15 year olds (grim). Then in order for the average to be 502 the others would need to score 425 -- lower than American blacks.
You have to understand America is <50% white in this age group. Even the worst off European countries are lagging a generation behind.

>>15202988
>i vill not eat ze bogs.webm

>>15202589
>t. dumbass who does not realize suggestibility peaks around 115 IQ, with the emphasis on "peaks" and not a flat or constant distribution thereafter
Again: you dumbass.

>>15204306
And just to give you an example of how dumb blacks in america (and generally) are, consider this.
https://www.foxnews.com/us/baltimore-student-fails-classes-top-half
Remember he was by definition practically AVERAGE in that school in the great city of Baltimore.

>>15204342
Wipe the foam off the corners of your mouth, animal, and don't ever gape your filthy maw around me again.

>>15194669
No it’s a nigger problem anon

>>15204344
>highlighting state wide corruption that was exposed by investigators as proof intelligence

Anon, the baltimore public school administration is literally corrupt organization. They don't care about grades nor do they care about health of the students.

https://foxbaltimore.com/amp/news/project-baltimore/baltimore-city-schools-share-nurses-32-million-dollar-grant-licensed-nurses-brit-kirwan-commission-plan-glenn-carman-maryland-state-department-education-licensed-physicians-assistant-wbff-fox45

>Baltimore City Schools received $1.6 billion tax dollars this year. About $32 million of that was to provide licensed health care workers at high-poverty schools. The district took the money, but 89 schools do not have a licensed registered nurse at all times

https://foxbaltimore.com/amp/news/project-baltimore/despite-worsening-student-outcomes-more-baltimore-city-school-employees-earning-100k

>as 1,645 city school employees now make more than $100,000 a year, the average annual income for the people they serve in Baltimore City is $32,699

https://foxbaltimore.com/amp/news/project-baltimore/city-schools-ceo-earns-nearly-445000-due-to-perks-buried-in-contract-dr-sonja-santelises-base-salary-car-allowance-deferred-compensation-retirement-state-pension-vacation-sick-personal-days-paid-time-off-holidays

>Project Baltimore dug into Dr. Sonja Santelises’s employment contract and found taxpayers are paying her over $100,000 more than they may have realized.

This isn't even about performance anymore they're just lining their pockets and the state ignored for years until investigators went public. The students don't even get hard check for criteria to pass each grade.

>>15194074
The state of Greece.

>>15196247
He's a genius on the hardwood.

>>15204306
>I've actually met Americans IRL.
Oh joy, anecdotal evidence.

>>15204664
This is not the gotcha you might think.
Sure, that is largely run by blacks.
What is always prevalent in black societies, regardless of history (e.g. Haiti, Liberia, South Africa, Ethiopia, Nigeria, enclaves in America, Brazil etc.)? Poverty, corruption, violence etc.
This goes into a broader point. It is often said that the black-white IQ gap in America is x% genetic. But let's think about that. When blacks are raised in a society with an average IQ of ~100, that pours resources into them, their IQ is expressed as 85. When they are left to their own devices, they create societies -- littered with the above -- such that the expressed IQ is in the 60s and 70s. In a sense this is the true genetic gap of the group.
Are you trying to make the case that there is not a genetic underpinning for differences such as intelligence, violence, achievement, etc.?

>>15204698
To be sure, modern Greeks are not the same as their ancestors, just like modern Brits are not the original Celts.

>>15204757
forgot pic rel

>>15204712
>Hurrrrr anecdotal evidence can be dismissed it's not evidence lmao
Professional studies are collections of anecdotal evidence and you're just blindly repeating a meme you've heard on Reddit.

>>15204780
He looked more impressive in his anime shirt.

>>15204893
>Evaluation of test scores across millions of students
>"Yeah, but I've met some people!"
>"REDDIT!"
Okay.

>>15202189
>People from Russia/China/India want to go to EU or US
Realistically, how long is this going to continue if Americans keep gutting meritocracy in favor of "diversity" policies which discriminate against Asians?
>In Eastern Europe most universities filter students with the first couple of math exams in STEM subjects.
Yeah, true.

>>15202469
>620476037.png
Are Americans really this brainwashed? It's like more than 50% of the country turns into complete idiots when it comes to the question of genetic influence on behavior. Even the fact that adult IQ is ~80% heritable is controversial now.

>>15202189
>All these things seem to be completely meaningless in the end
Keeping tuition below $50,000 seems meaningful.

>>15204905
That's not what was said. You are really bad at this.

>>15205388
>In Eastern Europe most universities filter students with the first couple of math exams in STEM subjects.
There's a tendency against this though. More and more women and minorities are admitted, the portion of students passing goes down. University management is upset and we get scalded for allegedly making the exams too hard. So we have to dilute the exams to a point where X% pass it, or adjust the grading. It's complete nonsense.

>>15204757
>This is not the gotcha you might think

Anon if I wanted to highlight a "gotcha" moment I would have just mentioned that the last two former Governors of Maryland who served from 2007-2022 were white men. Both who had the final say so in terms of how the education board for the State were facilitated. Both who had the resources to properly screened which employees were "fit" to serve. Both who had the highest observation point of all the cities and their schools in the State.

If you thought those white Governors who collectively served for 15 years didn't either green light or at least wasn't aware of that corruption in the schools you're sadly mistaken.

But keep thinking it's just about intelligence anon.

>>15202582
I think you're really underselling the benefits of democratic republics by treating governance as just an optimization problem to find the best policies. You should read more books about political history and various systems of government.
I see you're being criticized for not believing in the ideal of rule by the people. My criticism is the opposite, I think you're being too idealistic and not cynical enough.

>>15202988
Most other countries have way fewer troublesome minorities. Poland is >>90% white, Japan is >>90% Asian, etc.

>>15204002
Look at the graph that anon posted. US whites do outsmart Scandinavians and Germans.

>>15204344
I don't know whether to laugh or to cry.

>>15205718
Which place? Anecdotally, I haven't noticed anything like that in my alma mater (a technical university in Poland).

>>15206878
Not him but most other countries don't actively create their own problems. No one told America to be a bunch of lazy bastards and import a bunch of people against their will to do work they should have done themselves.

You get what you put in. If you don't want trouble the best way to do so is not to invite it. If you want people to act better the best way to do so is treating them better. This isn't complicated and I'm tired of people acting like it is.

>>15206205
>White governors are the reason black schools fail everywhere on the planet. When more black people are in charge, black schools thrive. I'm going to ignore the black president who produced no positive changes anywhere in the black community, and the fact that black people have the highest rates of success when they have the smallest population.
If you want people to look past intelligence, you probably shouldn't say shit that is so retarded.

>>15207291
A sign of intelligence is forming a proper rebuttal.

Sadly it seems you lack that intelligence since all you can form is ad hominems. Best not to throw stones anon.

>>15194029
you're forgetting how much of the country is black and brown.

>>15206864
>I think you're really underselling the benefits of democratic republics by treating governance as just an optimization problem to find the best policies.
How so? I have seen what "democracy" has done to western countries in the past century and it has been catastrophic.
> see you're being criticized for not believing in the ideal of rule by the people. My criticism is the opposite, I think you're being too idealistic and not cynical enough.
Can you elaborate?

>>15207626
>Can you elaborate?
Sure. You basically take it as a given that a system of government is just a process of selecting the best policies. But these things don't happen in a vacuum, and from a realpolitik point of view, this is only one of its functions, and not always the most important one.
There's a good argument that the most important function of a system of government is to prevent civil war. The past is littered with succession disputes that ended in a destructive war or even the fall of an empire. Democratic republics have largely solved the problem by choosing the rulers anew every few years instead of having some kind of line of succession, either by blood or by nomination. Even if a non-democratic ruler would make better choices, it doesn't matter much that GDP growth was 0.5% better or something when your country gets reduced to rubble by a civil war over who should rule next.
Another situation that can lead to a ruinous civil war is when a ruler becomes demented, cruel, or totally unfit for his position in some other way. In a democracy you only need to endure this a few years tops until the next election. If you had to wait 20 years and he could choose a successor just like him, that makes a civil war to depose him much more tempting.
The ability for a stupid policy to get enacted if the vast majority of people want it can be a feature, not a bug. I know it's infuriating to watch when it happens, but the realpolitik view is that if 90% of the country is for something, they're likely to get what they want either way. Either democratically or if they can't, by violently deposing you. It doesn't matter how good your policy ideas are if you've pissed of everyone else and now you're dead. That's probably what would happen sooner or later to a 130+ IQ absolute ruling class. There are simply far more people without a 130+ IQ and they have access to weapons too.

>>15207626
cont. >>15207865
The previous post was about the consequences, but even the idea that you could implement something like this in the first place is naive and idealistic. You'd probably get a system that fulfills the letter of your idea, but not the spirit. That's because the people building the system aren't going to be principled psychometrics nerds, they're going to be politics people who care the most about power. They'll just manipulate system in non-obvious ways until it works to keep whoever they want in power. If they support a party that appeals mostly to young people, they're going to make the test biased against old people. If the party appeals to old people, they'll do the reverse - weigh wisdom more than intellectual ability, which will privilege old people. If the supporters tend to be humanities people, the test will be biased towards "general knowledge" and if they're STEM, it will test raw brainpower.
Your idea is not realistic because it would just become a meta-game of who gets to decide the qualifications and rules for voting. The only way to avoid this is to have a "bright red line", i.e. a Schelling point supported either by tradition or just because it's very simple and obvious. "Everyone who's not underage gets one vote" is such a Schelling point and your intelligence threshold idea is not because intelligence and most other psychological traits are normally distributed rather than bimodal. Such a policy would have a myriad parameters with non-obvious best values, and therefore would get manipulated endlessly by the group in charge to get whatever they want.

>>15207244
>import a bunch of people against their will
Blacks do a perfectly good job of controlling their own population. They're actually decreasing, as a percentage of Americans. The majority of American diversity wanted to come here so bad it did it illegally.

And this really has nothing to do with the thread topic. Other countries do not factor out diversity partially because the effects are (or were) negligible. America does because the effects are drastic.

>>15207296
Lol, I guess I shouldn't be surprised that you don't even know what "ad hominem" means. It fits right in with the fact that you couldn't understand or respond to the rest of my post. Basic comprehension begins at 90 IQ level, which leaves you about 20 points short. But feel free to try again.

>>15207865
Right, I have of course heard of the argument that "democracies" provide stability. One must of course ignore all non Western countries, Japan, Taiwan, Korea etc., in addition to ignoring China, Singapore (combine for a greater population than the former).
As for the argument of "who makes the tests", how is that any different from (((whoever))) controls $/media/institutions/etc. can thus control public opinion? There is ultimately always someone or some group in power. The principle of democracy fails under the aristocratic and un-egalitarian principle of nature.

>>15207868
>>15207865
Democracy is one of the worst forms of government ever tried, and all have quickly failed.

Of course any and all forms of government are inherently evil and bad for humanity.

Ancient Athens City-State was the only half-way successful one ever done.

>>15208116
I will freely admit that Singapore is a success story for authoritarianism. But for every Singapore there are several bloody shitholes with regular civil wars. The odds are bad and Signapore was lucky to get Lee Kuan Yew.
>As for the argument of "who makes the tests", how is that any different from (((whoever))) controls $/media/institutions/etc. can thus control public opinion?
You're again failing at realpolitik. If you rule with a small group that goes against the majority a lot, they can just overthrow you. It's better to dissipate the impulse by letting the majority make suboptimal decisions than to let it fester until there's a coup.

>>15208138
It is not the majority making decisions (which would also be retarded in it's own right). You have too much faith in the average individual to make their own informed decisions. They -- whether they know it or not -- let others do it for them; they are unequivocally mouth pieces for those truly in power. If the jewish man on television and in the NYT and Wikipedia tells him that race doesn't exist and race differences don't exist and white men are the source of all evil and Hitler is the most evil man who ever lived and they totally killed six million Jews etc. they simply swallow it up and believe it>>15202469. They care more about fitting in and not being an outcast than deeply informing themselves and exercising agency -- and that's assuming they have the capacity for abstract thought needed in order to do so.
That is a fundamental misunderstanding you have imo
>If you rule with a small group that goes against the majority a lot, they can just overthrow you
It is different now that 500 years ago. Those in power have far more avenues with which to express it, far more control over propaganda.

>>15208152
You are arguing only about the quality of the decisions again which is not the point. The meta-level features of the system are just as important. Democracy is good not because it results in smart decisions, but because it dissipates revolutionary impulses and incorporates them into the system in a mostly non-violent way. I would rather have stable mediocrity than greatness punctuated by civil wars.

>>15208157
>I would rather have stable mediocrity than greatness punctuated by civil wars.
fag

Also if people never rebel you won't even get mediocrity. You'll get a bunch of con artists competing to see how many bugs they can get the serfs to eat.

>>15208157
Okay do you do not care about the ideal, because it's foolish and does not occurr in reality; you are completely okay with the power being in the hands of the few.
So now you're basically saying it just the most stable. Are you sure that is a consequence of the system? Explain all countries outside of the West and East Asia (i.e. predominantly capable high IQ people relative to everywhere else) being unstable, poor, often war-torn shitholes. In other words, I am making the case that these stable countries are stable for more underlying reasons -- such as genetics i.e. race -- than the political system. The obvious example of China, Singapore, Japan, Taiwan, Singapore all being stable places in spite of wildly different forms of government.
In addition a merit-based political system such as an epistocracy or merit-based aristocracy has not been tried in earnest.

>>15208188
I would also like to add that the west is in a race to destroy itself as fast as possible under this system. So it practically could not get any worse.

>>15194714
And yet there is no affirmative action here. Can your state say that?

>>15195861

>>15208427
He's not a chud. Sounds like a cuckservative.
t. chud

>>15202189
Way too sane for here

>>15202582
No, you’re an idiot. Everyone has rights and they just want autists like you to do a good job at all that shit you’re talking about. Don’t fuck up and you can stay in power.
And if a magic 5% take over you won’t be in it. Neither will people with high IQs. Rich people will be. Retard.

Kakistocracy my dude

>>15208427
>t. deeply mediocre person, trying to blame my low IQ and uninteresting personality on talented people who can actually succeed in life. eager to see those people dragged down to my level

>>15208659
mad cope in this post. has your gf ever had a 8" BWC?

>>15194029
There is absolutely no way that France is that high
t. French

>>15208908
>barely above average when a third of the list is third world
Half the planet is borderline retarded. Especially when you consider that most of China are impoverished rice farmers that genocided all their academics within the past 100 years.

>>15208427
I mean, that anon is right. Posting a dumb picture doesn't change that.

>>15208925
>genocided all their academics within the past 100 years.
Based. The West should do the same.

>>15209134
Weak troll.

>>15209134
Only a third of academics deserve genocide. The remainder are kind of important.

>>15194042
USA is extremely meritocratic. This is just what a meritocracy looks like. Not very equal.

>>15194053
>Singapore is no. 1. And they didn't produce any great or even notable mathematician.
1 city of 5 million people that has existed for 50 years hasn’t produced a great mathematician, therefore this is a bad indicator.

>>15208672
Only mine

>>15194046
True. But all those countries produce lots of engineers and scientists. You don't hear from them bc they are too busy working to survive. In order to get access to nice labs to conduct experiments you need money. Something none of those countries have but america does. Which is why scientists all over love coming here.

>>15208925
this map is so disingenuous. what use does a kalahari bushman have for math? drop a 120 IQ first worlder in the kalahari and he doesn't last a week. you could easily make the argument that the firstie's lack of survival skills make him less intelligent than the bushman.

>>15210215
You can make the same argument about chimpanzees and gorillas you absolute retard. Intelligence is a real thing, IQ is the best proxy we we have and is remarkably good at making predictions. The races differ significantly in intelligence as is usually defined (and you know exactly what it is), and this has tremendous explanatory power and implications.

>>15210227
>1400-1950
lmaoing @ /pol/niggers

>>15210254
The right page is from 800 BC to 1950 AD. Please learn to read.

>>15208013
You adhom'd by claiming what he said was retarded. No only that, you completely made up THIS bullshit
>>15207291
Literally who are you quoting, dude? No one mentioned Obummer even once before my post.
>and the fact that black people have the highest rates of success when they have the smallest population.
Maybe at performing criminal activity, but certainly not in any academic field. (You) are stupid, this is definitively proven as evidenced by your brainless posting.

>>15210108
>USA is extremely meritocratic.

>>15210374
>You adhom'd by claiming what he said was retarded.
Adding an insult to a comment is not an ad hom you drooling retard. Ad hom is when you attempt to discredit a logical argument based on characteristics on the person who made the argument. Those are not the same thing.

>Literally who are you quoting, dude? No one mentioned Obummer even once before my post.
Lol, are you serious? Good god, let me try to spell this out for you very slowly. He said white governors were the reason Baltimore retards can't read, implying that the one most powerful person in an area is the primary determining factor of a race's success there, and that all these problems would be solved if they just had a black governor. This is a mindnumbingly stupid argument, which I emphasized by analogy with the black president who solved nothing. Try to rub your 3 brain cells together and see if you can figure out how analogies work.

>>15204173
Good luck getting Amerifats to admit that. The SAT at it's core was always a test you can grind to get scores that really don't match your actual academic performance.

>>15203034
>>15203345
You can selectively pick and choose who to test. It's why several nations got in trouble for having illegitimate PISA scores.

>>15211039
It's not supposed to match academic performance. GPA already exists for that. It is supposed to measure your aptitude, or more generally, your intelligence. Hence why the SAT correlates well with IQ.

>>15194029
Unfair comparison because almost everywhere else the retards are filtered out around our 10th grade. We keep everyone until 12th, whereas you send your retards to trade schools so the smart kids can work on A-levels or the Bac or whatever the fuck.

>>15211039
No one in the last 40 years got into an elite college with SAT scores only. AP tests, SAT subject tests later called SAT II etc. have been more or less required for decades.

>>15194029
Your picture may be wrong because, as a French guy, I know that our country in below average since 20 or 30 years.

>>15211056
Does it still correlate well with IQ after the recent changes? I've heard that they gutted the SAT too.

>>15211715
Not as well, but still decently.

>>15210611
>be an average asian/white
you have less than 1/10 to 1/20 chance of being accepted into medical school

>be an average latino/black
you have 1/2 to 1/3 chance of being accepted

lmao

>>15210611

>>15210227
I want to know who the significant scientist from sub-saharan africa was.

>>15212852
latins are white. go to mexico and stay there for a few years. you can then claim the diversity privilege just like any spic.

>>15211715
The correlation has dropped with each revision. The pre-1995 SAT test was the gold standard -- an excellent, well-rounded IQ test with an incredibly high ceiling to identify true geniuses. I think the correlation was around 0.8-0.9 through the end of the 2400 version, though the test was much easier overall. The present iteration is the worst of all.

>>15213506
Don't think I see anything there. In any case you could probably find the database.

>>15211715
The current SAT (revised in 2016) is a total joke. You can take a practice test at Khan Academy. The reading portion has become entirely about comprehension. If you can read a few paragraphs and interpret graphs, you may very well get a perfect score. Math is still math, it should be a piece of cake for anyone who made it to calculus. I can't imagine it still correlates well to IQ, midwit and above should be scoring over 1400 regularly.

>>15204306
How big? What country are you from?
I'm not saying i disagree because a lot of Americans are stupid, but the loudest Americans are who people see the most. I have seen some pretty stupid takes from Europeans. Them thinking we all wear shoes inside because they saw it on TV. On TV.

Our population is 330+ million, lots more because illegals lol. The country with the largest population that's not Russia (not Russia because Western Europeans are the ones who bring up dumb Americans the most) is Germany. Their population is over 83 million. Let's round up to 85 million for any potential obfuscation of data. I'll keep the US pop at 330 because the ratio is extreme anyway.

85 million / 330 million = 0.257xxxx
So the population of Germany is 25-26% of the US population. That's before eliminating non-whites/europeans from both populations.

If i met 1000 Germans and a German met 1000 Americans, i've met more of his fellow citizens than he has met of my fellow citizens. A German who has met 4 Americans and an American who has met 1 German have met the same proportion of people from each other's home countries. If i travel to Germany i can easily meet more of his country pretty quickly than he could meet of mine, if he came to the US. If we were in a race to meet each others citizens, ignoring those living abroad, he'd have to meet 4 times as many people as me everyday to keep pace. I meet 100 people in 1 day he's gotta meet 400. His country is smaller too, so i can travel through it faster. At first it would be easy, but he has to go to fucking travel over 4400 kilometers just to get across to the other coast. I barely have to travel that far in his country. New York will knock out a lot for him, but i'll still beat him easily.

>>15213640
*i met a larger proportion of his fellow citizens

>>15205712
Here's exactly what was said: >>15204306
>"I've actually met Americans IRL

Am I to suppose this person has met millions of Americans, allowing them to dismiss millions of test results? I think the latter would be a little more reliable over a single anon's anecdote of having met "lots of 'em."

>>15213574
Where's the database?