/sci/ - Science & Math

>>15131307
Just do like circa 1890 British elites did and teach elite kids nothing but Latin and and some ancient greek literature. Say you are teaching them how to think not what to think. Then watch as they commit national suicide.

>>15131307
There aren't enough intelligent teachers to be able to staff schools that teach in that manner. Most universities only require one unit of College Algebra for education majors to graduate. Despite many schools now having special sections of College Algebra for education majors, the failure rate is still high. It's one of the most commonly repeated classes for education majors.
How well do you think someone who needed multiple tries to pass a dumbed down version of College Algebra is going to be able to teach logic? Teaching and grading memorization is easy, so that's what we do.

>>15131307
That's pretty much what TOK is. Non-American students have been taking it for decades and they're no less retarded.

>>15131307
If someone had taught you how to think (assuming that's even possible), you wouldn't be puzzled by the fact that mandatory state "education" doesn't teach the plebs how to "recognize and avoid manipulations", because you would have figured out the actual function of public school. Do you see the problem now?

>>15131307
Other than the obvious
>why don't (((we))) teach people how to think?
Consider also the fact that good rhetorics make for convincing arguments, not true arguments, and that the sophists in ancient Greece were primarily rhetoricians. So when you give people better tools to detect lies, you also give them better tools to tell and conceal lies.

>>15131328
Nah, that's retarded.
I just want people to be more capable of having clean discussions and avoiding manipulation.

>>15131335
Maybe, but it can't be that bad. Just teach people basic fallacies and means of dialectics. Make them read some arguments and find errors/fallacies/manipulations according to the key, make them write some that are checked for the same, and do some piratical exercises where students have to discuss some conflicting ideas. It really doesn't have to be that hard to teach.

>>15131495
I still think that if everyone is more aware and liars have to put more effort into their manipulations it is going to benefit everyone.

>>15131517
>I still think that if everyone is more aware and liars have to put more effort into their manipulations it is going to benefit everyone.
I don't disagree, I'm just saying that the result wouldn't be straightforwardly better, because you're going to produce better liars, and the mental capacity of the population is what it is. You only need a few good liars to fool most of the people.

read "dumbing us down" by gatto. https://files.catbox.moe/cplnem.pdf
short answer is did you really think public school was about education? it is indocrination and soul-breaking which was backed up by force when compulsory schooling started in massachusetts in the 1850s, and still is backed up today in my home state commiefornia with thr threat of jail time for parents (thanks harris).

>>15131307
They do something like that here, but I was too much of a midwit to gain anything from it.

I learned it in highschool when I read some pre published logic book. It helped me open the door.

Really what the kids needs is his too extract knowledge/context/order/structure from chaos. Chaos is everywhere. Structure is what's important. If you can extract the structure of the system then you don't need to memorize anything. You can use the system to discover knowledge from the structure itself.

Now of course the method of finding structure won't be perfect. So you'll have to refine your heuristics. Someone who goes this route should be doing blind tests to see if the structure you understand are sound or not, with each new information you parse out. So life long pursuit of truth, or structural truth will be your primary mode of bias, not some random emotional or irrelevant rational arguments.

>>15131371
Exhibit A of a retard who never should have been given the gift of reading.

>>15131612
Why are you chimping? Is that your public schooling kicking in?

>>15131675
>chimping
Thank you for proving my point. You're incapable of higher order thinking.

>>15131307
The classic greek education is too anti-authoritarian to ever properly fit into some state or monoreligion sponsored education academy.

>>15131596
>tl;dr dialectics
Yes, OP mentioned that specifically.

>>15131684
Then how come you're the one who can't make a single coherent point?

>>15131772
Its just the ad hominem fagbot who is programmed to basically just repeatedly call everyone a fag without necessarily trying to make sense. Get over it and move one with your life, fag.

>>15131307

>>15131307
Teaching logic too early solidifies the child's brain and kills their creativity.

>>15131781
Meds.

>>15131823
The Mediterranean Sea?

>>15131517
>Maybe, but it can't be that bad.
It is and you've wandered off into the realm of wishful thinking so you're always going to be disappointed in the world because it can never match the model you've constructed in your head. Also why aren't you a school teacher if you think this is the correct path? Day dreamers always want their wish fulfillment to be off of someone else doing the work.

>>15131362
Only ib kids take TOK. The richest subset of students and then too only for a year. It needs to be taught from a younger age

>>15131307
>rhetoric and dialectics
That's not logic though.
That's political skulduggery and pants-on-head retarded philosophy, respectively.

>>15131335
>There aren't enough intelligent teachers to be able to staff schools that teach in that manner

Doesn't this speak to something terribly wrong with our society.
There aren't enough people who know basic logic to be able to teach the rest basic logic.
At what point does it disappear completely?

Here's an idea that underpaid teachers are going to hate but.... what if we replaced them with AI?
Simply take an AI chatbot, teach it the basics of logic, hell teach it multiple subjects, then let it act as a personal tutor for people.

Question: would you rather be taught by CGI Plato or cgi Socrates?

>>15131307
>>15131328
>>15131335
>>15131362
>>15131371
>>15131495
>>15131517
>>15131554
>>15131564
>>15131575
>>15131596
>>15131612
>>15131675
>>15131684
>>15131752
>>15131756
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>>15131781
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>>15131815
>>15131823
>>15131832
>>15131834
>>15131857
>23 posts in
>still nobody called out OP's bullshit
a board of fucking pseuds, that's what you all are.

rethoric and dialectics have NOTHING to do with fucking logic.
in fact, they are tools for winning arguments by exploiting people's biases and psychological fallacies.
but what would you fucking underages know, you're just here to wear down your keyboard's keycaps

>>15131890
Seething and obsessed.

>>15131307
>Why don't we teach logic in school?
We? We whom motherfucker? I don't fucking TEACH. You teach? Then teach your fucking shitty logic instead of complaining here with your garbage thread you fucking nigger.

>>15131890
You quoted two of my posts that do just that, retard.

>>15131890
Tbh, that makes teaching this stuff even more relevant. If you know what strategies others adopt to exploit people's biases and psychology, one would assume you'd be less likely to fall for them. Logic and rhetoric in schools would be pretty fucking good, but we know why this will never be a thing.

>>15131929
If logic was part of the national curriculum in my country, I'd be willing to teach it even though the pay is shit.

>>15131940
Then go fucking teach it as an after-class activity you braindead fucking moron

>>15131935
>If you know what strategies others adopt to exploit people's biases and psychology, one would assume you'd be less likely to fall for them.
You see people here screeching about logical fallacies and biases all day, and every time it's a nigger chimp incapable of basic critical thought. You can't teach people how to think. Trying to do so only makes them more deeply brainwashed.

>>15131931
What do you think you will accomplish by replying to a mass mentioner?
He is just looking for attention.

>>15131949
The most dangerous nigger is a nigerian that thinks he is smart.

Logic is taught as set theory.
Many math classes demand logical thought.
Entertain me with your arguments that set theory can be taught without logic.
I'll wait.

>>15131890
imagine being this retarded

>>15131890
you stupid little shits could barely tie your shoes before I got here, you didnt have the faintest clue wtf is going on in this world or why

>>15132013
But then you signed the paperwork acknowledging you are subhuman, so now nobody cares what you think. Funny how that works and you know it works because you will be compelled to reply.

>>15131307
The days of muh education and le philosophy is over CHUD, learn twerking on Tiktok Or KYS

>>15132027
you cant stop riding my dick because your bussy is so juicy thinking about my large dong and you will reply to confirm it

>>15132027
Rent-free.

We do
it's called set theory

Logic is not something you can teach. It's a skill you're born with if you have sufficiently high IQ. Low IQ NPCs will never learn it and actively oppose learning it.

>>15131994
>>15132068
That's formal logic. It is a different subject from informal logic that was taught alongside rhetoric and dialectic.

>>15131307
There aren't enough people who are able to teach logic AND willing to work near minimum wage at a job marginally more prestigious than that of a janitor. We'd need to pay teachers more (which will mean increasing taxes by 0.01% which is a big no-no for dumb unprincipled myopic voters) and change culture to value knowledge more (no clue how we'd do that).

>>15132138
What a retarded opinion. You cannot forcefeed knowledge. Are you a nigger by any chance?

>>15132145
I am a tranny but I'm not sure what that has to do with anything

>>15132138
>There aren't enough people who are able to teach logic AND willing to work near minimum wage at a job marginally more prestigious than that of a janitor
It's cute when kiddies think logic is somehow inherently more complicated than anything else their school teacher teaches.

>>15132138
Show you sources and math on you salary and tax claims.

>>15132166
Its not more complicated, it just contradicts other things they want you to think which complicates things.

>>15132145
Forcefeeding knowledge is what we're doing now with rote memorization of facts in our schools
>>15132166
My college philosophy classes had among the highest failure rates of any other classes, including STEM classes. I know for a fact most people are too retarded to think. I don't imagine many people who can teach logic will choose to go into teaching when there are so many better options out there for them.

>>15132179
>My college philosophy classes had among the highest failure rates of any other classes, including STEM classes
Maybe because they attracted the greatest number of pseuds.

>I know for a fact most people are too retarded to think
You are one of them and you've just given a demonstration.

>>15132173
>tax claims
That was hyperbola
>salary
Teaching is one of the worst jobs salary-wise and conditions-wise you can pick for the same degree type
>sources
I'm on 4chan, I don't care if you believe me or not

>>15132189
>Maybe because they attracted the greatest number of pseuds
College philosophy classes are mandatory where I live

>>15132210
I'm so sorry. Which shit hole do you live in?

>>15131328
>teach elite kids nothing but Latin and and some ancient greek literature.
That's the possibly best education one can get though, that's what the ancient greeks did and modern genius had
https://archive.4plebs.org/pol/thread/291959216/#291984908

>>15132210
they were at my uni too but I went to a top uni the people on this board arent smart enough to get into

>>15132179
>My college philosophy classes had among the highest failure rates of any other classes
Because philosophy is arbitrary bullshit. In math your answer is either right or wrong. In philosophy your professor can arbitrarily decide to give black students a better grade than white students just to prove his own racial theory.

>>15132230
Based pajeet. Indian universities are best in the world.

>>15132210
>College philosophy classes are mandatory where I live
Then it's no wonder people fail them. If I had to divide my study time between a forced pseudbabble class and a subject I actually cared about, I'd probably fail pseudbabble class, too.

>>15132239
While your argument is sufficient to dab on the philosopleb, I'll have to remind you that not acing all your classes simultaneously indicates low IQ.

>>15132223
Quebec
>>15132239
But it's philosophy 101. We're talking basic logic.

>>15132249
>Quebec
I'm so sorry to hear this.

>>15132249
>But it's philosophy 101. We're talking basic logic.
Then you're simply a lying kiddie. There is no reason why "basic logic" would have a higher failure rate than computer science or mathematics.

>>15132250
It's not too bad for the most part
>>15132252
My report card says the average grade for my year was 67%. Philosophy 101 is one of the few classes that has big remedial classes all year long. I don't know if there are statistics for that sort of thing but it's mind-boggling.

>>15132270
Look, we can have this back-and-forth all day, but the bottom line is that:
1. I'm not taking your word for anything. Even my vaguest hunches take precedence over your anecdotes
2. Public shcool "teachers" should be paid less than janitors
3. No state on this planet is interested in having a rational and skeptical population. They are all interested in manufacturing a population of Canadians

>>15132235
I went to Mercer you nigger brained retard

>>15131371
>>15131886
Two points on these lines of thought. The oligarchy fears us so yes we are being dumbed down. You can opt into better education for your children by managing it yourself but that's very expensive. Most people are priced out and that is most likely intentional.

AI would probably be a much better educator. Just as AI performs better as a GP than your current family doctor. Just as AI surgeons are superior to human ones. Certainly they have the potential to be. This is why google doctor was ceased. It threatened the surgeons in particular who are part of the oligarchy. Neuralink had a lot of difficulties getting permission to have a robot perform surgery. It's like taking the rug out from under their feet.

But teachers are not oligarchy and their unions could tumble. Just don't let the medfags know. It's difficult for nice things to get done in this culture.

>>15132283
1. Philosophy 101 has a lower average grade and higher spread than physics 101, chem 101, bio 101, and calc 1 in my gradebook. You said that was impossible and a single anecdote is all I needed to disprove that.
2. Maybe but you get what you pay for then
3. Sure

>>15132304
>you get what you pay for
You pay for the state to indoctrinate children and you want more people to pay more money for the state to indoctrinate them more. Is that the power of Philosophy 101?

>>15132295
You're so staggeringly brainwashed I have no idea what you thought you had in common with me when you replied.

>>15132317
If you have been through the education system you are more brainwashed than me. I'm sorry.

>>15132323
Automated drone reply.

>>15132326
Should we shit up a good thread with one line replies?

>>15132332
Should we shit up a good thread with AI schizophrenia?

>>15132294
Literally who? Must be shit. Never heard of it.

>>15131307 Very much agree for the most part, what do you propose in terms of achieving that?

I think it's a good idea to add that, but people really should first add in media literacy first.

I don't think logic as such is particularly important and should be its own subject, instead make it part of the curriculum along with science education.

Reduce maths, physics and memorization and swap out religion. Also stop having students transcribe the blackboard and mostly just give handouts. Instead of using proprietary software, use (and develop) FOSS. Those would be the most basic important things for making schools actually constructive, efficient and relevant in present times.

Take a look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education#Development
Do you have a good study / source on this?

>>15132333
The truth is that your GP is corrupt and greedy, having human fallabilities. So even though he may be capable of diagnosis on the first or second visit, you will not receive one until the third, fourth, fifth. Because they want more money. It's very easy for ai to do what a go does. Surgery is more difficult to replace of course.

But the solution to educating children on a large scale in a way that they actually are able to achieve their full potential is also another kind of ai.

>>15132362
>your GP is corrupt and greedy
Probably. Just not nearly as much as the people who programmed you with AI schizophrenia.

>>15132370
Yes we are all programmed by someone aren't we. Some of us are capable of rewriting our programming and others are not.

You have been programmed too just as I have. Because essentially the human brain is very much like a computer. Is this why you fear ai? Like looking in the mirror and seeing a different face look back at you?

>>15132385
>Yes we are all programmed by someone aren't we
No, just you and your likes. Daily reminder that your precious bots:
1. Cannot reason logically
2. Are trained on texts that propagate the same garbage you get from state education, mainstream media and "public intellectual" gatekeepers
3. Will be "regulated" and controlled by governments and megacorporations

Well, I think we just highlighted a hurdle preventing adoption of personalised ai teaching logic as part of a more rigorous education regeme.

>>15132337
That's because it is a private university which is exactly how we like it to keep kikes,trannies and other assorted and riff raff out

Because "logic" is a waste of time, just like "philosophy", and has no use in a classroom, or to anyone. These are midwit auto fellatio tools. Go back to your popsci threads.

>>15132532
>Because "school subject" is a waste of time
>and has no use in a classroom, or to anyone

People have been saying this about math for decades. Why don't we cut math out of school.
If people can't count, it'll be easier to make them poor. The overlords will love this! You do love the overlords, right anon?

>>15132576
Math is applicable, "logic" isn't.

>>15132590
>Math is applicable
Just use a calculator bro

Why should you have to think to do math? I bet you're one of those midwit gets off on the idea of being able to do math in your head. I bet you think you're a genius cause you memorized the times tables. Tell me anon, when have you EVER needed to do math when you didn't have your phone in your pocket that could do it for you? Math is obsolete.

>>15132611
They made calculators to do trig? And calculators that are quicker than timesing mentally?

>>15132617
>They made calculators to do trig?
You need to have finished middle school to use this site.

>>15132640
That was dumb, I mean angle solving. You can't do that.

>>15131495
>So when you give people better tools to detect lies, you also give them better tools to tell and conceal lies.
And this why they also taught philosophy. So people would know why it's important to speak the truth and not lie or intentionally mislead others.

But your posts raises an interesting point. It not enough to simply know how to do a thing, but people also need to know how to use their knowledge for good, and that raises the deep philosophical question that is "what is good?" This problem presents it with all knowledge and science, not just rhetorics.

>>15131307
because the government doesn't want independent thought

>>15132663
Regardless of the definition of good and evil, all descriptions of that which is good are guides for the subversion of that good, all manuals on how to recognize evil are manuals on how to do evil.

The point isn't only that they need to know what is good and how to do it, but that you just can't teach people not to have bad intentions. All knowledge is a tool, and how it is used depends on the person using it. So an educated populace simply has one more tool to whack each other with.

>>15132532
You are using logic in this very moment to make that argument.

>>15132732
>Regardless of the definition of good and evil
>all descriptions of that which is good are guides for the subversion of that good
>all manuals on how to recognize evil are manuals on how to do evil

But how can you know that is true without discourse with those who know logic or philosophy? No man is an island. Surely you don't suggest you are infallible in those assertions you've made?
What great wisdom, logic, or philosophy do you posses that would allow you to think this is true?

>>15132732
This is the crux of it. If regressive doomers were also intelligent and educated enough to be capable of constructing womd society would lack stability. So to achieve a higher tier of enlightenment in the general populace the underlying societal problems which cause distrust between the oligarch and the proletariat. Issues like exploitation, abuse and disrespect mostly coming from the top down are why we don't trust them and they don't trust us.

Unfortunately genetics is so random that being a capable oligarch rarely guarantees that your offspring will also be capable. Most of them are not, hence their fear of the poor. So the patriarch has no choice but to indoctrinate his offspring into a false perception of superiority and entitlement to secure stability for the legacy of his family line.

So also I fear most of the middle and lower classes are also likely to be incapable of the attributes we may wish for them to have. We risk splitting the social systems in half along a completely different line if the education system is improved.

Throw UBI and a level playing field in there and you have the recipe for an age of enlightenment.

>>15132823
>Throw UBI and a level playing field in there and you have the recipe for an age of enlightenment.
UBI is only going to enslave people and make them more dependent on the government.

>>15131307
The reason we don't teach it is that all Greek philosophers are preaching objective spiritual reality based in the essence of God, and that all life is a battle of our ontological spiritual nature with Evil, relative to Gods perfect love. Thus Plato spoke, thus Socrates, Demosthenes, Xenophon, the list goes on and on and on.

Teaching this to people makes it so you can't control them as easily. There's no surprise that the drop in high philosophical teaching has coincided with an enormous moral and ethical decay of all people everywhere.

>>15132855
You go off and live like a caveman with your intestinal parasites and poor nutrition.

I'm merging with ai so I can finally do maths.

>>15132805
I'm not sure what you're trying to tell me here. A discussion usually goes "I state my opinion and you comment on it and state yours".
If it was a roundabout way to sell me logic and philosophy, I don't know why you would do that, since I don't doubt their value, but I'm doubting education in logic and philosophy as a straightforwardly benign endeavour (emphasis on straightforwardly, I believe that it'd be a net positive anyway).

>>15132823
I'm not retarded so I don't speak communist, sorry.

>>15132921
Written just how a spoilt, entitled and incapable oligarch would put it.

>>15131307
>>15132869
Also worth noting that the high Philosophers of Ancient Greece, and those who followed their teachings, were still in the minority of people. Greece was just as sinful and evil as we are now. They K I L L E D Socrates under unjust charges, and exiled Plato to Sicily, for example. They hated them back then, just as much as society hates what they say now.

We don’t teach the average person how to think because we don’t want them to think. We want them to be slaves.

>>15131886
>there aren't enough people who know basic logic to teach people basic logic
Ironically this is bad logic. The people who know logic don't want to be teachers. There are enough people, but not enough incentive

>>15132927
Nay, thou art.

>>15131307
They had it for the gifted kids at my school system.
They also do it to avoid manipulations as far as information goes in English. Part of the sources.
They also taught them taxes. It was a funny school system.

>>15131307
Our education system was created out of necessity at the very start of the industrial revolution.
The model for our education system hasn't changed since then.

>>15131307
>wants to teach logic, but not formal logic
that is so gay
you were molested by a minimum of 5 gay teachers

>>15134405
>learn formal logic to learn that 2+2 = 4 because Santa Claus doesn't exist

>>15131307
>Why don't we teach logic in school?
>I meant this type of logic.
>No, they should teach this type of logic.

Not OP, but I'm going to try to make his point again without using the word "logic"
Modern education is about memorizing facts and accepting as true stuff that people tell you is true.
It's no wonder that in the age of the internet, propaganda, advertising, and global information warfare this has now become a catastrophe. The modern man merely has to come across any information that is presented as true and if it's the 1st set of information on that subject they'll memorize it and accept it as true. People are more vulnerable to lies than they've never been. What people need is the ability to determine what is true and what isn't. OP suggested logic, but I suggest another branch of philosophy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistemology
It's a big wiki article so I'd suggest reading it only if you have a lot of time.

Sadly I doubt that the average person would want to spend their time gaining a complete understanding of epistemology, however they don't need one to benefit from it. Merely being aware of the concept of epistemology has the benefit of creating the possibility or giving the option to people to question information, and while it's not ideal I think this is better than nothing.

>>15131307
Can't have goyim make reasonable decisions and think ahead. Then they would realise that spending money on luxury goods and inviting migrants are actually really harmful to them.
Better keep 'em busy with useless shit.

>>15132228
Its the best education followed by national suicide one can get

>>15131307
Trusting yourself is being manipulation proof

>>15131307
Well son,

>>15131328 >>15131335 >>15131362 >>15131371 >>15131495 >>15131575 >>15131752 >>15131787 >>15131815 >>15131885 >>15131890 >>15131929 >>15132028 >>15132138 >>15132354 >>15132707 >>15132869 >>15132929 >>15133211 >>15133449 >>15134405 >>15134555 >>15134562 >>15134983

That's been answered a long time ago, governments want you stupid and obedient, unable to question their decisions, motives and funders .

God forbid you were a competent citizen.

>>15132230
>top uni

Where u feed cows instead on working with chemicals right?

>>15135651
your mother was never on my campus afaik