/sci/ - Science & Math

>>14863343
Can you show me on an MRI where consciousness resides?

>>14863343
>t.
Educating midwits is a mistake.

>>14863349
Consciousness doesn't exist, retard. Learn neuroscience.

Why do you think “no free will” contradicts to “no more reaponsibilty”? Even if free will is an illusion, moral standards are not.

A single cancerous cell in the human body, i.e. faulty functionality (e.g. a mutation after radiation exposure) - no free will situation for the cell - still gets eaten by the immune system. And if it can’t, hell break lose.

>>14863343
The actual implication of your beliefs is that they have nothing to do with truth, reason or rationality. According to your own stance, what you're spouting ITT was simply programmed into you. lol

>>14863354
Not a philosophy major but it just means we need to change how we consider punishment in criminal justice. There is no “evil soul”, so unnecessary long prison sentences are unnecessary. Instead, if it is possible, we should rehabilitate people so they don’t think like criminals anymore.

>>14863361
>we need to change how we consider punishment in criminal justice.
We don't need to do anything according to the core tenet of your braindamaged worldview. lol

>>14863364
I need to convince you that we should change how criminal justice works so you change how you think of it.

If we remove all the bad criminal thoughts/circuits in a person they are no longer dangerous and will act safe upon release. Since we cannot be responsible for our actions, because no free will, there is no “he deserves to remain in jail”. Once the person is retrained such that they will no longer do crime, they should be released. They are a good person once rehabilitated.

The only point of long prison sentence is if we believe they are too broken to be rehabilitated. Again, this is because people have no free will so that cannot be morally responsible for their actions.

>>14863367
>I need to convince you
According to your own ideology, no one needs to do anything and there is no such thing as a rational discussion.

>>14863369
No?
You still have circuits in your brain that would make you believe fixing criminal justice is good if it is broken, or have you not ever learned that because you are retarded?

>>14863343
So what you're saying is we should execute criminals, because their behavior can't be changed since they're broken deterministic machines.

>>14863374
>You still have circuits in your brain that would make you believe fixing criminal justice is good if it is broken
The circuits in my brain tell me criminals should rot in prison, and you're telling me I have neither the moral responsibility to do the right thing (according to you), nor the agency to apply true reason and see that you're right. lol

>it's another episode of midwits not knowing about Orch-OR
You clearly did not study the brain to the precision of quantum level.

>>14863376
Assuming they cannot be rehabilitated, i would still disagree with you since I have some apathy for them (which is natural since humans are designed to have some apathy). At the very least it is easy to see you be imprisoned in the future, so for your survival it would be best if we didn’t execute criminals.

>>14863378
This is why I think criminal justice will never be fixed.

Before learning of no free will I thought
like you that criminals were evil and should rot in prison.

If you can just, for proof sake, assume that there is no free will then the idea of rehabilitation makes sense.

Until you learn neuroscience you will not understand no free will.

>>14863361
If we killed all the low hanging fruit we could use some of your grey ambiguity. Until a bunch of violent murderous retards are extinguished you’re a dumbass for even asserting life imprisonment is callous. Really pathetic.

>>14863391
>This is why I think criminal justice will never be fixed.
Why does it need to be fixed?

>Before learning of no free will
You mean before the indoctrination machine pushed the right buttons to make you think a certain way?

>Until you learn neuroscience you will not understand no free will.
Neuroscience is 80% pseudoscience, and your ideological babble about "free will" demonstrates it very clearly, since neuroscience proper has absolutely nothing to say on this issue by definition.

>>14863382
You mean empathy.

>>14863395
Then you agree, for proof sake, that assuming free will does not exist then we should attempt to rehabilitate people instead of long prison sentences?

>>14863402
Yes

>>14863381
>Orch-OR
https://webspace.science.uu.nl/~hooft101/para.html

"Theoretical physicists sometimes talk of particles moving backwards in time, or that the speed of light may sometimes not be truly constant. A better informed remark: in Quantum Mechanics certain features appear to happen with correlations over a `spacelike' distance ...
Can the human brain be sensitive to such phenomena, and can explanations be brought about along such lines?
The aswer to this is simple:
ABSOLUTELY NO!
Both relativity theory (special as well as general) and quantum field theory have a causality structure built in. This means that information processing takes place along extremely rigorous rules, and these rules include the mechanisms at work inside our brains. What is more, since our brains operate at body temperature (mine does), quantum correlations between nerve cells are washed away by thermal fluctuations, so you may even forget about quantum mechanics when you discuss the mechanisms active inside our brains ..."

>>14863404
No. We've already covered this: according to you, I need to alter my views only because the lump of matter in YOUR brain is arranged a certain way which compels you to "fix" the legal system, and you are attempting to push some buttons in my brain with your rhetoric and alter the arrangement of matter in my brain to agree with you. Fucking LOL.

>>14863413
If you cannot think mathematically like with assumptions then you must truly be retarded. Even if you don’t think the assumption is real, I believe most people would agree with me if we had that assumption. Also, i can tell this reply is ironic and you also never originally replied to my point on this assumption and proof, so I think its safe to say that this correct:

Assuming there is no free will, we should maximize rehabilitation and minimize prison sentences.


With that proven, I already told you, you would not understand no free will without learning neuroscience. If you knew neuroscience you will know the assumption of no free will is correct. Therefore, criminal justice does need to be reformed.

>>14863428
I did accept your assumptions for the sake of this argument, and the conclusion has been outlined for you several times, but you're a brainwashed retard. LOL

>I believe most people would agree with me
Most people don't agree with you. Maybe they should be shoved into the brainwash machine to have their buttons pushed in the right order. :^)

>>14863428
>Assuming there is no free will, we should maximize rehabilitation and minimize prison sentences.
Assuming there is no free will, no one "should" do anything and all your talk about "shoulds" is just an attempt to push people's buttons to trigger whatever chemical imbalance causes your opinions.

>>14863428
The systems you mention already exist in Nordic countries like Sweden who have a similar take on criminals.

>>14863447
LOL. We'll see how long that'll last now that they're getting overrun with third world browns.

>>14863343
Yes, we should just believe (believe) in the next best scientism take. Because it will absolutely help me, if I believe that I have no free will. Yet here I am, I am now standing up, dabbing after years of not doing so and will in a second make me a nice warm coffee. Fuck you too

>>14863343
>Guys, I am studying neuroscience at university and today I just crossed the free will threshold. I understand there is no free will, that our circuits adapt and response to the current and previous situations, along with genetic programming.
Did you come to that conclusion by yourself or did the atoms coliding in your head made you say these things?
https://crossexamined.org/5-arguments-existence-free-will/

>>14863343
>One implication of this is that people are not morally response for crimes, since there is no soul, it is just there fucked up brain that needs to be rehabilitated.
Or be removed since they're a danger to others.
Anyway, this is not at all true.

>I understand there is no free will, that our circuits adapt and response to the current and previous situations, along with genetic programming.
This isn't really true though. You can't just dismiss free will and say it's just calculated and genetically programmed.

Simple animals, especially insects, might not have any free will. They aren't really responsible for their crimes, they just take in stimuli and hash it to find out what they are to do.

You can weigh options and decide "hm, I think this is the better option" and then make the decision to do so. You're not entirely bound by a hashmap of impulses.
Same for criminals, they can weigh options and decide what to do, they're fully morally responsible for their actions.

>>14863575
>programmed
>hash it
>bound by a hashmap
You computer people really need to read more classical literature, your expression abilities are lacking

>>14863580
> your expression abilities are lacking
You mean our verbal expression database is optimized to maximize throughput. :^)

>>14863581
You would have an aneurysm trying to read critique of pure reason

>>14863585
Kant was a brainlet and Critique of Pure Reason was mildly entertaining.

>>14863367
>If we remove all the bad criminal thoughts/circuits in a person
How, most of it is genetic?
Plus, the ability to kill your enemies and then "reform" with no punishment would create a world where criminals are given an insane advantage and incentive them to never change their behavior. Regular people would be likely to change instead.

>>14863580
I'm taking my bachelor is mathematics, but I do supplementary CS courses.

>>14863585
No, Rudin is pretty good at expressing himself. It's just a bit difficult to remember all the definitions and theorems that go into the reasoning.

>>14863591
>How
Probably like this:
https://youtu.be/G4jEhHQR5us?t=50
Anyway, you are trying to reason with someone who is insane and does not believe in reason to begin with.

>>14863391
>If you can just, for proof sake, assume that there is no free will then the idea of rehabilitation makes sense.
We don't execute every jaywalker because disproportionate force is widely held to be immoral. If there is no free will then there is no morality, then there is no reason to expend resources rehabilitating a deviant when there's no reason not to just kill him.

>>14863593
It used to be that mathematicians would read books that weren't textbooks before they entered university

This is apparently too hard for the new generations, so they fall for scientific materialism for not knowing it has been destroyed in the 20th century

>>14863624
>It used to be that mathematicians would read books that weren't textbooks before they entered university
Then computers and tv was invented, a more readily available form of entertainment.

>>14863621
> there's no reason not to just kill him.
There's no reason to just kill him, either. If there's no free will, there's no reason to do anything. People will just do whatever they do for arbitrary and completely circumstantial "reasons" that aren't humanly meaningful, and all the talk about what you should or shouldn't do, or why you should or shouldn't do it, is white noise that has no real causal relationship with whatever people end up thinking and doing. It's amusing how both determinitards and their normie opponents fail to correctly deduce the logical implications of determinitard dogma.

>>14863629
>There's no reason to just kill him, either.
He's a jaywalker, he'll get killed by physics without moral injunctions against flattening him.

>>14863361
Lol
Lmao
By your reasoning we can just kill all criminals.
And you.
We can be criminals.
Fucking retard

>>14863343
are you 12

>>14863343
You just sound like an edgy faggot

>>14863353
>Consciousness doesn't exist, retard. Learn neuroscience.
I'm conscious, therefore neuroscience is false. Simple as that. If a field collides with basic principles such as "I think therefore I am" or "Women and men are biologically not the same", then the field is invalid and not to be taken seriously.

>>14863837
>"I think therefore I am" or "Women and men are biologically not the same"
These are just religious principles, so they belong on >>>/x/

>>14863840
Facts aren't religious principles. Science that goes against facts belong on >>>/x/.

>>14863587
Kant was correct about almost everything
You are not as smart as Kant.

>>14863343
this is just what happens when you mix your godless ideology with science
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fY8dENdB620

>>14863840
This is very elegant bait.

>>14863977
Kant was retarded and wrong about everything except for observations made many centuries before before he was even born.

>>14863438
Even if there is free will that doesn't mean any "should" follows

>free will by my definition doesn't exist
>therefore free will doesn't exist

>>14864271
Agency opens up the logical possibility for shoulds and shouldnt's. Determinitard dogma doesn't even leave room for reason, let alone for prescriptions.

>>14864277
That's how proofs work. First you define things and then prove things about them

>>14864285
You've proven that your own retarded definition of free will is retarded. Well done.

>>14863343
ok then you have no capacity to know true or false and everything you say is not to be trusted.

>>14863361
The Bible continues to be proven correct in a world dominated by scientific materialist retards like you.

Criminals should be killed because God said so.

>>14863428
>If you cannot think mathematically like with assumptions then you must truly be retarded. Even if you don’t think the assumption is real, I believe most people would agree with me if we had that assumption
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Is%E2%80%93ought_problem

>>14864292
I'm not even him you schizo. If you want others to disprove your notion of free will, define it so that others can tear it apart. You won't do that and will instead keep deflecting (which is ironically proof of your lack of free will).

>>14864364
>not even him
Hardly matters. It still addresses the argument that you tried to make.

>If you want others to disprove your notion of free will, define it
Whose notion of free will are determinitards trying to disprove when they start these threads? Their own strawman notions? Who cares? Why start a thread about it?

>>14864344
Based.

I think it would be like way more metal if we just turned everyone's brains into violence loving sociopaths. Then we could have SUPER WARS. Wouldn't that be a lot more fuckin rad than turning everyone into a bunch of boring polite stinky old ladies cunts? I want to fight in fucking battle mechs not sit in a dopamine porn pod.

>>14863361
Yes they are necessary, retard the functional purpose of prison is to isolate dangerous and unsocial elements, not to rehabilitate them.

>>14864344
God said you must outbreed criminals, killing is for Satanists.

>>14865174
No he frequently commands that evil and unrepentant people be put to death, and does it himself on occasion. As long as criminals are given a chance to confess their sins and make right by God, then the death penalty is allowable.

>>14863343
They're letting retards study neuroscience now huh?

>>14865588
First year community College stuff anon

Haha, you'll get there one day, don't sweat it!

>>14865600
>determinitard indoctrination is fiirst year community college stuff
Okay, not you're being honest for some reason. I thought we were talking about some groundbreaking neuroscience discovery. lol

>>14863343

You actually regressed and ended up being wrong. You're an autistic sperg. Free will is proven.

>>14865588

academia is pumping out retards at full steam.

>>14863361
It's ineffective to try and cure long trauma caused by circumstances so desu we should just kill every criminal and spend all that rehab money on making sure kids don't end up like that instead, which would get society far more bang for our buck.