/sci/ - Science & Math

>>14811844
>insane pain tolerance
This is not a good thing.

I cut my nipple off with bolt cutters. I made it much better by doing so too. A surgeon could not have done it better. On the night I did it after several years of having a large-ish previous nipple piercing keloid poking through my shirt, It took me a long time to finally pinch those things closed because the incapacitating pain each time I squeezed another 0.1mm made me have to stop. I do have an enormous tolerance for pain and sometimes my enemies say that they aren't really hurting me because their testicular electroshock implants (etc...) don't drive me to tears. It does hurt, quite a bit at times. My ability to cope doesn't lessen their crimes. It only lessens my torture without exonerating them.

>>14811844
>what's the science behind ultra instinct monks?
Demonic possession
> what if we send high iq kids to tibetan monasteries insteat of meme schools? are we gonna get gigabrain superhumans out of them?
No they will probably just be monks

>>14811863
Schizo larp no one cares boring

>>14811860
>This is not a good thing.

What is the alternative pain management techniques?

>>14811844
unironically meditation.
The brain is extremely plastic. It gets good at doing what it usually does, which for westerners (and most third worlders, really) means being distracted and multitasking.
The meditation they do is at the same time a form of concentration training and relaxation training.
There's a good book about this topic if you want to get into the practical aspects of how it works, it's called The Attention Revolution

>>14811844
Great impulse control could be attributed to the general lack of instant-gratification stimuli that monks are exposed to as opposed to the shit many are bombarded with today in the first world. Entertainment and/or social media such as tik tok are designed to trigger your dopamine receptors to keep you there for longer, which, in turn, results in a lower attention span and reduced impulse control because there are sources of dopamine that are more easily acquired via aforementioned source(s).

>>14811844
>>14811876
>>14811883
>>14811886
You have the typical midwit thought pattern of black-boxing other people and appealing to muh complexity. Shit like basic geometry developed in other places because the priest castes took an interest in helping farmers and builders n shit. It wasn't for some 4chan pseud signaling, but for the purpose of applying intelligence to practical problems all societies faced and which people with the capability, that is to say, the intelligence, would be interested in solving. It doesn't have to be the same specific inventions and theories as in another society, it doesn't have to be ALL of them, but if you've got centuries of thousands of people with boosted intelligence there should be at least SOMEONE who takes an interest.

Yet, those Buddhist monk countries were some of the shittiest in Asia. So much for compassion. In Burma Buddhist monks led a genocide, in Thailand, they are known for meth use and laziness, in Tibet they were a parasitic "noble" caste that still practiced limb amputation for theft instead of doing literally anything to uplift their starving serf subjects so they don't have to steal food. These motherfuckers even refuse to work and go out to beg for food from the poor farmers instead of helping them like priest castes from countries that developed better civilizations. If you think any of this can be consistent with meditation raising IQ, then you probably also think that niggers fail all over the world because of muh racism and muh oppression.

>>14811956
Meditation may not be able to raise your IQ, but it might be able to allow you to control your emotion and raise your attention span enough to allow you to read a very short series of short texts before spouting out an extremely spergy "critique"

>>14811844
>hyperfocus and superhuman attention
Because they trained it just as a surgeon trains his attention to cut precisely, just as a programmer trains his attention to hold a large abstract system in his mind. They trained to focus on the moment-to-moment sensory experience. It's not useful for science or other knowledge work beyond the general usefulness of having good focus. Example: you can train to be a swimmer, a rugby player, a rock climber, and all of those will make you fit. But if you want to be a rock climber, you'd be wasting your time training to be a swimmer just because it makes you fitter.

>conscious control of sexual arousal
>insane pain tolerance
>robotic impulse control
These are manifestation of the primary skill they train for, i.e. their swimming, rock climbing, etc. They train their attention to watch the unfolding of bodily and mental processes so they can notice the more subtle precursors to the coarser reality we perceive. To us, wanting to fuck is seeing a beautiful woman and being drawn to her. To them it's your eyes sweeping over in her direction, her features coming into focus, your mind recognizing what you see as a woman, your mind appraising her features, feeling suffering from her not being yours, feeling a pleasant sensation in the lower abdomen, feeling a slightly increased tumescence in your penis, interpreting these sensations as a desire, deciding to reach for desire. They train in running a live debugger on human desire/aversion so they can see it as a sequence of smaller events and become disillusioned the same way magic tricks feel less cool when you know exactly how they work or the monster in your closet stops being scary when you realize it's a shadow. Do you actually want that? You can train at something useful, get just as focused on that as they are focused on taking themselves out of the gene pool, and also get paid for it in the end.

>>14811876
Pain is a signal that our actions and general life processes are not correct, and we ought to fix them. What use is withstanding the pain of being on fire if you eventually die?

>>14811956
>helping them like priest castes from countries that developed better civilizations
?

>>14812065
>Do you actually want that?
Idk can I do something cool with it? Will I lose this ability to do all these things when I stop meditating and go back to everyday life? What would be the point of doing all that when I can't use it to do something cool in the end? How is becoming a lazy apathic piece of shit in any way desirable?

>>14811956
>in Thailand, they are known for meth use
That's just bizzare

>allegedly achieve superhuman abilities by sitting and doing nothing
>use these superhuman abilities to sit and do nothing
that all sounds very "based" and "redpilled!" we could all learn a lot from these "based" "chads!" by not touching our dicks, we could defeat globohomo with mind bullets! my brain's a mess of burger fundie bullshit, kabbalah bullshit, chakra bullshit -- and soon: buddhist bullshit!

>>14812642
Why are you losing your mind?

>>14812648
i'm butthurt that /sci/ is flooded with bullshit

>>14811865
>demonic possession
The projection is real.

>>14812511
He made that shit up

>>14812657
maybe thailand is a fucked up place tho wouldn't suprise me if it actually happenned

>>14812650
Meditation is quite real and effective. I suppose he's asking how it works from a neuroscience perspective. You don't know anything about neuroscience but you know everything about fedora chimpouts.

>>14812679
show me your superpowers

>>14812692
You keep chimping out irrationally. I think you should try meditation. It can help PFC-deficient niggers like you with their impulsivity.

>>14812709
DOI or fuck off

>>14812065
>so they can see it as a sequence of smaller events and become disillusioned the same way magic tricks feel less cool when you know exactly how they work or the monster in your closet stops being scary when you realize it's a shadow.
But does the magic trick really stop being cool or is it just that the roles have been reversed? I can still watch horror movies with monsters in them tho, knowing they're not real.

>>14812508
>Will I lose this ability to do all these things when I stop meditating and go back to everyday life?
That's the right question to ask, if not it's indeed a waste of time.

>>14812722
>>>/r/rickandmorty
Come back when you have at least a basic education, nigger ape.

>>14812732
>magic is real!
>give DOI
>ree reddit
done and dusted

>>14812737
Sorry about your profound mental illness.

>>14812737
DOI? digital object identifier?

>>14812741
your inability to back up your claims is your problem and no one else's

>>14812751
Just take your meds already, you chimp-brained reddit dropout.

>>14812508
>Idk can I do something cool with it?
If they aren't making this shit up, then only in the mental realm. You can watch your body dissolve into tiny little wavelets, you can experience energy coursing through you. If you stretch the limits of your credulity, then you will also have the ability to develop mind-reading abilities, water-walking, teleportation, astral projection, and multiple body manifestation. Personally, I'm more concerned that meditation makes you more prone to being interested in non-intersubjectively verifiable reality or bullshit to use the less polite term.
>Will I lose this ability to do all these things when I stop meditating and go back to everyday life?
The point is that you don't stop. After a certain point, it becomes effortless, and before you get to that point there definitely won't be anything "cool", just some calm and focus. But yes, all meditative attainmanet is liable to undone except for, insight.
>What would be the point of doing all that when I can't use it to do something cool in the end?
The point is to realize there is no "you" and that you only have retarded desires like doing something "cool" because you believe the self is real.
>How is becoming a lazy apathic piece of shit in any way desirable?
Don't know, but that's what they do. They aren't really lazy, at that point they can do anything they will. But they have no motivation to do commoner shit like fucking and making money. The nucleus accumbens, the part of the brain which releases dopamine for rewarding activities, literally shrinks in hardcore meditators. They are pretty happy though. I can see that. LSD, for example, makes you feel amazing while completely killing your desire for sex, food, money, status. You pursue those things to feel good anyway, so in the end all you have to do is not feel like you have to answer to your biology, your family, and your society.

>>14811844
>what if we send high iq kids to tibetan monasteries insteat of meme schools?
They'll do a lot of meditating and not accomplish anything?

>>14813183
>the part of the brain which releases dopamine for rewarding activities, literally shrinks in hardcore meditators
their dopamine sensitivity also skyrockets. for them, everything, even something as small as a rock or a flower in the ground is able to give then immense happiness

>>14813243
Dubious. Dopamine doesn't make you happy, dopamine makes you want to do shit so you can get more dopamine.

>>14813226
>freeing yourself from the rat race and attaining lasting contentment
>not a great accomplishment
Why is technocattle like this?

>>14813259
Are you implying that only high iq kids are capable of this? Otherwise I have no idea what the point of your comment is.

>>14813267
I'm not implying anything. I'm just wondering why technocattle people think serving Shekelstein Corp. and the technological slavery system is an accomplishment while reaching Nirvana is not. :^)

>>14813282
Maybe because I'm capable of following another anon's train of thought? The implication was obvious, high IQ kids would become super beings if they were trained as monks, and would use their intelligence to help society. Enlightenment is fine, but that's not what the other anon was getting at.

>>14813286
>high IQ kids would become super beings if they were trained as monks, and would use their intelligence to help society
Yeah. What's the issue here?

>>14813291
They instead sit on their ass and add nothing new.

>>14813330
LOL. Why is technocattle like this?

>>14813339
Master morality vs religious slave morality.

>>14813364
So you're just gonna go full-psychotic on me now?

>>14813364
>>14813367
Master and slave is a dynamic that permeates all things. Politics, religion, government, armies.

>>14813183
>>Will I lose this ability to do all these things when I stop meditating and go back to everyday life?
>The point is that you don't stop. After a certain point, it becomes effortless, and before you get to that point there definitely won't be anything "cool", just some calm and focus.
What if it wasn't a choice tho? What if in some imaginary szenario, the wellbeing of the whole nation, 1000s of lives or even just my family ended up depending on me (a monk) *doing* something. What I'm getting at is: What's all the worlds wisdom and mental strength worth if I can't *act* upon it?
>What would be the point of doing all that when I can't use it to do something cool in the end?
>The point is to realize there is no "you" and that you only have retarded desires like doing something "cool" because you believe the self is real.
But that's not true either. Only my "ego" and the reflexive self-model of me in my head are constructions but my mind in and of itself clearly also exists as a entity that's seperated and distinguishable from other mind-entities around therefore countable and just as "real" of an object as everything else. Saying I myself aren't real only makes sense if you allow yourself to believe in some super shizo shit like open individualism (I'm everyone else) or that everyone around you is just a philosophical zombie or something.

>>14813384
What does your psychotic master-slave fantasy have to do with meditation?

>>14813393
>What I'm getting at is: What's all the worlds wisdom and mental strength worth if I can't *act* upon it?
Nothing stops an expert petroleum engineer from working the cash register at Wal-Mart. He just won't ever want to. Nothing stops monks from doing things you, from your current perspective, want to do. They just have a different perspective where living in seclusion in a cave or a forest makes more sense to them than getting a job and starting a family. Sometimes they do act for worldly causes. Zen Monks supported Imperial Japan's war, Vietnamese and Tibetan monks suicide through self-immolation without flinching as a form of political protest.
>But that's not true either. Only my "ego" and the reflexive self-model of me in my head are constructions
That's what your gratify. Without it, individual desire is pointless.

>>14812642
Why would they care about globohomo?

>>14813462
>Nothing stops an expert petroleum engineer from working the cash register at Wal-Mart. He just won't ever want to. Nothing stops monks from doing things you, from your current perspective, want to do.
Then they should be forced to. Simple as.

>>But that's not true either. Only my "ego" and the reflexive self-model of me in my head are constructions
>That's what your gratify. Without it, individual desire is pointless.
I can kill all desire by killing myself. Why not just commit suicide?

>>14813462
>That's what your gratify.
Yet it's not who I am.

>>14813504
Utilitarian subhuman, you definitely SHOULD commit suicide. Very well trained by your semitic masters

>>14812065
this anon is right. i've been meditating every day for the last 7 years and meditation is basically a focus exercise. without all the mystical baggage, it's just interoception training.

>>14813822
Based. Meditation often has a lot of ‘woo-woo’ wrapped around it when it can often be very beneficial.

>>14813291
>Yeah. What's the issue here?
How many monks do you know of who became great scientists or mathematicians? The issue is zero proof of concept.

No one on /sci/ will ever understand this, not even a century from now, but meditation is a state that surpasses animality, ie the next step in the evolution of intelligence. Most people are of animal quality (low levels of sentience), and their makeup is almost completely derived through their culture/upbringing, obviously with a basis in genetics. But someone who masters meditation can surpass all animality, and can direct their efforts in any way. The basis of animality is survival instinct, which pervades into what we think of as craving or desire. But true intelligence is separate from instinct, and is purely logical in nature. As humans we perceive intuition as instinctual rather than logical, but there exists a deep powerful capacity for logic within our subconscious, that remains untapped because its unnecessary for survival. We can catch a ball and throw a spear because these are necessary for survival, but if I asked you to write out every equation and every calculation you did to predict the ball or spears trajectory, you would be at a loss. That's because writing it out is unnecessary to survival, only the act of doing it is necessary. Through meditation one can overcome this barrier and access the latent logical capacity within our subconscious, or even our body itself. Science is slowly catching up to what the ancients have known for millennia. One advent is Wim Hof, who changed the very definition of the auto-immune system (it's not so 'auto' anymore). You will slowly see more and more of these types of breakthroughs, but the proud people of /sci/ will never be convinced until their overlord ((professors)) tell them it's true and start teaching it in their university courses. Such is the nature of the midwit who thinks himself learned.

>>14814371
>Such is the nature of the midwit who thinks himself learned.

I may be out of my league here, but if I may, I think part of the problem that exists with using this "deep powerful capacity for logic within our subconscious" is partially a language problem. When you meditate you allow for the capacity for thought without words (or maybe even without symbol) but communicating that experience to others is naturally quite difficult without those same words. How do you teach how to do something or even have any kind of communication about something, when you can't use any words? How could any school be expected to teach about something when words aren't allowed? There is the option of simply extending vocabulary and inventing new words, ideally introducing those new words at a young age, but that just bounds thought and ideas to those newly created words. Another option is simply teach people the basics of meditation and hope they figure out the rest, but even with guidance I think without proper motivation or need to, people may be incapable of scratching more than the surface.

>>14813226
for high iq kids most of "schooling" is a massive waste of time. besides this pushes a false dilemma. they can be a monk while still learning the important stuff in a specialized institution. high iq kids learn quickly anyways.

>>14811844
>what's the science behind

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/inspired-life/wp/2015/05/26/harvard-neuroscientist-meditation-not-only-reduces-stress-it-literally-changes-your-brain/

https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2011/01/eight-weeks-to-a-better-brain/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2693206/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4608430/

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1053811909000044

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3004979/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effects_of_meditation

https://www.mindful.org/the-remarkable-brains-of-high-level-meditators/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5261734/

>>14815291
forgot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanisms_of_mindfulness_meditation

>>14815301
More-

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/guest-blog/what-does-mindfulness-meditation-do-to-your-brain/

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/use-your-mind-change-your-brain/201305/is-your-brain-meditation

https://medium.com/meditation-without-mysticism/meditation-isn-t-about-suppressing-your-thoughts-and-emotions-4de935d61213

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/11/121112150339.htm

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/guest-blog/what-does-mindfulness-meditation-do-to-your-brain/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4595910/#SD1

(Book about trait gamma change)-

https://www.amazon.com/Altered-Traits-Science-Reveals-Meditation/dp/0399184384
https://books.google.com/books/about/Altered_Traits.html?id=07svDwAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=kp_read_button#v=onepage&q=jhana&f=false

https://positivepsychology.com/mindfulness-positive-psychology-3-great-insights/

https://www.openfocusattentiontraining.com/2017/02/28/mindfulness-and-open-focus-two-approaches-to-attention-training/

https://liveanddare.com/meditation-for-beginners/

https://liveanddare.com/types-of-meditation

https://liveanddare.com/myths-about-meditation/

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1I9i4eIJicQhZRR7-JE6zYUdZ86Up9NoqPQeYTzdsKLE/edit#gid=0

https://www.pocketmindfulness.com/focused-open-meditation/

https://www.takingcharge.csh.umn.edu/mindfulness-stress-reduction

https://liveanddare.com/meditation-experiments/

https://www.psypost.org/2019/07/mindfulness-meditation-training-may-help-people-unlearn-fearful-responses-54056

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/dont-delay/201604/mindful-emotion-regulation

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/why-can-t-i-get-better/201401/meditation-and-mindfulness-part-i-calm-abiding-meditation

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-athletes-way/201504/mindfulness-the-power-thinking-about-your-thinking

https://markmanson.net/self-awareness

(Good resource)
https://old.reddit.com/r/meditationscience/

>>14815325
Some more links-

https://psychcentral.com/blog/dispositional-mindfulness-noticing-what-you-notice/

https://www.takingcharge.csh.umn.edu/what-mindfulness

https://themindfulinquisitor.com/2021/06/18/how-to-meditate/

https://www.takingcharge.csh.umn.edu/how-does-mindfulness-work

https://www.quora.com/How-is-mindfulness-different-from-concentration-For-example-when-we-become-aware-of-breathing-in-meditation-is-it-not-concentration

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mindfulness

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samatha

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anapanasati

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equanimity

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shikantaza

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoga_nidra

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhy%C4%81na_in_Buddhism

>>14813183
>The point is to realize there is no "you" and that you only have retarded desires like doing something "cool" because you believe the self is real.
Not true, this is a misconception, or more accurately there are different interpretations of "anatta" in relation to the self and different sects of Buddhism interpret things differently, see

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatt%C4%81
>While often interpreted as a doctrine denying the existence of a self, anatman is more accurately described as a strategy to attain non-attachment by recognizing everything as impermanent, while staying silent on the ultimate existence of an unchanging essence.[1][2][3] In contrast, Hinduism asserts the existence of Atman as pure awareness or witness-consciousness,[4][5][6][note 2] "reify[ing] consciousness as an eternal self."[7]

http://www.zendan14.co.uk/424240891

https://arobuddhism.org/community/an-uncommon-perspective.html

>>14811883
This, it's more accurate to say that training in this way is training a "meta-skill" as Sam Harris puts it, that affects all other skills/hobbies/activities you do

By returning attention to the object of focus over and over again in meditation practice, you train the brain to do it when not practicing, and do it easier, therefore more focus and less distractions (through diminished activity in the default mode network (mind-wandering/distraction center of the brain)

https://samharris.org/how-to-meditate/

>>14813243
>>14813248
both wrong

>>14812411
>Pain is a signal that our actions and general life processes are not correct, and we ought to fix them
>It's another "evolutionary biology is perfect and always does eveything to personally help you be better off in all situations" episode
It's bad to have zero sense of pain. Kids with congenital insensitivity to pain frequently end up gouging an eye out, losing fingers, biting off the tip of their tongue, etc.
That's not the same as being a normal person who can feel pain and undergoing training later in life to be better at tolerating it. Those monks don't accidentally lose bosy parts because they're oblivious to pain. They're still aware of pain and are just a bit better at living with it.
And no, mild aches and pains aren't guaranteed to always be some indication you need to change how you're living. Active people just get that sometimes. If people always stopped what they were doing at the first sign of pain then nobody would ever lift and build muscle.

>>14816788
He might be on to something, though. Monks don't have kids. From an evolutionary standpoint, this is just as bad as dying at 5 from CIPA because you didn't mind having broken bones.

>>14816824
Not really. You guys keep thinking of evolution on way too much of a personal level.
If you zoom out a bit I guarantee these monks all have reproducing close relatives who aren't monks.
If you have reproducing siblings or even just reptoducing cousins then a large portion of your genetics is getting passed on still regardless of your own individual actions.
Being a monk or being prone to becoming a monk doesn't seem like anything particularly tied to genetics. It's more like random one-off members of families who sign up for that life, unlike sickle cell anemia which plagues families heavily through their genes.

>>14811844
Meditation is real, yes. Studies can also be done on these monks. They have much higher control of their visual attention, probably near full control over their impulses and executive function too. Some studies on their brainwaves have been done, along with motion blindness tests to verify their concentration abilities. Indeed, they have control over certain perceptual processes, perceptual gating and influencing new brainwave states at will

>>14816906
Those monks have 10s of thousands of hours of practice, though. This is the only shit they know to do.

>>14811863
cutting keloid is the most retarded thing you can do. it will come back bigger and more.

>>14813183
>The nucleus accumbens, the part of the brain which releases dopamine for rewarding activities, literally shrinks in hardcore meditators.
So, it's giving you brain damage?

>>14814180
>How many monks do you know of who became great scientists or mathematicians?
Did I say anything about becoming scientists or mathematicians?

>>14811844
absolute clowns lol

>>14811860
t. softie and retarded too
Not being able to feel pain is a bad thing because you can't tell when something is wrong with you.
Pain tolerance on the other hand is amazing.

>>14817327
Okay, how do you propose these high IQ monks will help society while avoiding interaction with society?

>>14814690
gonzalez for the last time you're not mommy's intelligent child who's being oppressed by school staff

>>14816911
Why does it sound like you're belittling them? Is it wrong to have a direction in life instead of picking up random useless party skills? You must feel threatened.
>>14818681
They avoid society because they're high IQ. Literally the only way to 'help' society (help people realize society as a concept is fucking retarded) is to not participate. Other high IQ people will never help society beyond the limit of their personal gain. That's the nature of participation in our current system.

>>14819219
>They avoid society because they're high IQ.
What evidence do you have that they're high IQ? I've just assumed they get hooked on meditation and not doing shit, to the point that they can't bear to live a normal life again. That's fine for a few folks, that wouldn't work for a population of nearly 8 billion people.

>>14811844
The total training of buddhism are basically:
"I have a brain but I ignore it."

>>14811844
https://www.bangkokpost.com/thailand/general/2001615/police-nab-novice-monk-who-organised-filmed-gang-rape

>>14819377
https://theconversation.com/why-buddhist-monks-collect-alms-and-visit-households-even-in-times-of-social-distancing-128452

Spoilers: it's so you ̶g̶o̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶h̶e̶a̶v̶e̶n̶ gain merit.

>>14817307
notice not a single Sam Harris worshiping meditation bugman can refute this

>>14819770
Is the argument
>Bigger piece of brain piece better piece of brain
?
If so, are you trying to induce brain cancer for maximum growth?
People with chronic anxiety / behavioral disorders have enlarged enlarged amygdalas.
Do you want to be like them so your brain's bigger?

>>14819770
Is the argument
>Bigger piece of brain better piece of brain
?
If so, are you trying to induce brain cancer for maximum growth?
People with chronic anxiety / behavioral disorders have enlarged amygdalas.
Do you want to be like them so your brain's bigger?

>>14819799
OK, let's go to reality, then. Do you want to do something that makes you more likely to find it acceptable to be a dirt poor khhv?