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/sci/ - Science & Math


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14776413 No.14776413 [Reply] [Original]

Daily reminder that time and space aren't real

>It is a natural and near-universal assumption that the world objectively has the properties and causal structure that we perceive it to have; to paraphrase Einstein’s famous remark (cf. Mermin, 1985), we naturally assume that the moon is there whether anyone looks at it or not. Both theoretical and empirical considerations, however, increasingly indicate that this assumption is not correct. Beginning with the now-classic work of Aspect, Dalibard and Roger (1982), numerous experiments by physicists have shown that neither photon polarization nor electron spin obey local causal constraints; within the past year, all recognized loopholes in previous experiments along these lines have been closed (Hensen et al., 2015; Shalm et al., 2015; Giustina et al., 2015). The trajectories followed by either light (Jacques et al., 2007) or Helium atoms (Manning, Khakimov, Dall and Truscott, 2015) through an experimental apparatus have been shown to depend on choices made by random-number generators after the particle has fully completed its transit of the apparatus. Optical experiments have been performed in which the causal order of events within the experimental apparatus is demonstrably indeterminate (Rubino et al., 2016). As both the positions and momenta of large organic molecules have now been shown to exhibit quantum superposition (Eibenberger et al., 2013), there is no longer any justification for believing that the seemingly counter-intuitive behavior observed in these experiments characterizes only atomic-scale phenomena. These and other results have increasingly led physicists to conclude that the classical notion of an observer-independent “objective” reality comprising spatially-bounded, time-persistent “ordinary objects” and well-defined local causal processes must simply be abandoned (e.g. Jennings and Leifer, 2015; Wiseman, 2015).
http://cogsci.uci.edu/~ddhoff/CA-circuits-CSR-rev.pdf

>> No.14776462
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14776462

>>14776413
Sure, you'll get no argument from me. Add in the modified Wigner's Friend experiments that are basically the new Bell's Inequalities, like: https://www.science.org/content/article/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-foundations-reality#:~:text=Each%20friend%20measures%20the%20particle,would%20show%20only%20weak%20correlations.

Pick related makes a better argument from a different direction.

Or for a more mainline physics interpretation that revists space time, there is Wilczek's metric field.

Or go Tegmark and Greene have books on the mathematical universe hypothesis.

Or you can look at it from the perspective of It From Bit (Davies' edited a good collection). This last one is deeply broken due to a very incomplete definition of information, but still my favorite. The problem is that Shannon's definition has nothing to suggest any initial probability distribution for using the concept as a basis for physics instead of just communications. The idea of elementary particles "storing bits," is dumb. They only are measurable because they vary from the background, you need both to get information, some sort of difference.

>> No.14776473
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14776473

>>14776413
TaKe YoUr MeDs ScHiZoOOO!

>> No.14776477

>>14776462
Pick related makes a better argument from a different direction
Donald Hoffman authored the paper in the OP dingus

>> No.14776503

>>14776413
Paper assumes conscious entities and structures are reductible to binary computations and state, but none of which is the case. Any given "bit" of consciousness is infinite. Still interesting relative to traditional materialism.

>> No.14776508

>>14776413
And? How does that change anything? Real or fake, the universe still follows a tight-enough set of rules that we can make spaceships and perfectly calculate all sorts of phenomena.

>> No.14776509
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14776509

>>14776413
time is the measure of change
change occurs
change is real

space is the measure of location
each thing occupies a different location
location is real

your father is a measure of reprehensible human failure
he forgot to pull out just once, resulting in you
reprehensible human failure is real

>> No.14776519

>>14776413
We must be getting close to the final stages of the collapse of physics.

>> No.14776528

>>14776509
But the results of some man-made quantum physics experiments observed some counter-intuitive results, that means the universe is fake.

>> No.14776529
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14776529

>>14776519
The time after most scientists understand how consciousness imagines itself will result in an explosion of knowledge, not the collapse of anything.

>> No.14776531
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14776531

>>14776528
whether you realize it or not, humans are not observers

>> No.14776532

>>14776509
>absolutely losing it over having his dogma questioned
Sooner or later materialist cultists are gonna start targeting scientists and conducting terrorist attacks over the imposion of their ideology. lol

>> No.14776533

>>14776509
Time is the colloquialism humanity dubbed to the observation of entropy and its effects

>> No.14776535
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14776535

>>14776532

>>14776413
>>14776473

>> No.14776541

>>14776535
So are you going to assassinate quantum physicists now?

>> No.14776554

>>14776413
>time and space aren't real
Doesn't that mean that nothing actually exists?

>> No.14776574

>>14776477
I was referring to the link.

>> No.14776576

>>14776413
Nothing is real

>> No.14776603

>>14776509
>The measure
>But what's being measured?
Like Joe Biden, Space and Time are spoken of in privation. They use everything else other then what they allegedly are in order to be "Defined". Only instead of "measurements" it's "Trump" with Joe.

>location is real
location Israel

>>14776532
>Sooner or later materialist cultists are gonna start targeting scientists and conducting terrorist attacks over the imposion of their ideology.
Why on earth would they attack their barons of quantification? A materialist needs their quantities, and the scientist must count them in order to reaffirm what they believe. You should rather ask them when they'll stop committing terrorism and assigning value/psychosis in this already worthless material realm.

>>14776554
It means you can't put them into a scientific experiement and derive something to actually be spoken about. It's pure reification.

>> No.14777138

whats the deal with indeterminate casual order? does it have implications?

>> No.14777392

>>14776413
>time and space don't exist, that's why their curvature can affect that which exists
>t. einstein
truly a genius, I bet he would've also been able to answer what is a woman.