/sci/ - Science & Math

yes, psychology is not a science, it's a tool used to socialize individuals in a population

>>14601317
It's mostly based on what a person reports as sources of suffering in their life
When you get enough data you can start trying to recognize patterns that if well understood and documented are later presented as disorders

>>14601321

What's the threshold of "enough" suffering? And narcissists don't exactly emotionally suffer.

>>14601317
google doodles Anne Frank for me today

In totalitarian cultures, the media will gaslight dissidents (the differently minded etymologically speaking) under the threat of conformity or persecution, relying on their grunts 'just following orders' to rat them out and pressure them.

>>14601317
>paranoid personality disorder
You guys won't believe the number of times people have called me paranoid for suggesting that they shouldn't use their name+DOB as their password for every fucking online service. All of this is just completely subjective crap and some psychology idiot is in no position to accurately judge if I'm being paranoid or if my fears are reasonable.

>>14601343
They do suffer the hardships in forming lasting and meaningful relationships
They also have an innate need for being held in very high regard which is often not easy to satisfy and can leave them distraught

>>14601480
Why are you mistaking people describing your behaviour as excessive by their standard for a diagnosis made by a professional?

>>14601548

You mentioned the standard of suffering without much word as to what the thresholds are.
I can think quite a few who don't meaningfully suffer.

>>14601824
I am not sure what you're trying to establish here
As long as a person experiences feelings or thoughts that they consider as taking away from their well-being or creating problems in any area of their life, you can classify that as suffering
There's no set in stone scale to measure it and there will never be as it would not be accurate due to how people differ from each other
This shouldn't be coming across as news since most things in social science are highly relative and shifting, the disorders you mention are a result of this system hence you can't explain them in some other, "measurable" framework

Therapy is a hobby for rich people

Personality disorders are maladaptive behavorial responses developed as coping strategies, usually because of childhood trauma, abuse, neglect

Schizotypal is sometimes a neurodevelopmental disorder like autism except diet schizophrenia. Musicians and comedians and actors are more likely to be schizotypal

>>14601343


Narcissism and narcissistic personality disorder are not the same thing, narcissists do not have a disorder because their narcissism does not impact them, like you said they do not suffer from it, many go through life achieving all of their goals. Same thing with psychopaths

People with narcissistic personality disorder are so narcissistic it impacts their functioning to the point where it is a problem for them, sometimes this is ego-dystonic and they seek help for it because they cannot function at work, school, in relationships etc though there is not many psychotherapists specialized in treating this nor is there many people who actually get help for it, most people with NPD would avoid the idea of therapy, quit if they even went to it the moment they felt insecure, threatened, or uncomfortable

>>14601317
Me on the left.

>>14601554
a professional psychologist would probably be worse

>>14603260
Don't be paranoid, you haven't even talked to one about it
Besides, it's rare for a psychologist to make a diagnosis, most of the time it's psychiatrists doing this

>>14603567
People call me paranoid

>>14603598
Why do you think that is

>>14603656
I don't know, they don't understand that the stuff that I'm concerned about is stuff that anybody should be concerned about?

>>14601317
>I can see some sense in going by what 99% of people deem to be undesirable behaviour as a defining criterion
So, there it is. What people deem undesirable is subjective. Who would have guessed?
>Schizophrenia and major depression are pretty well-defined and fairly-well demarcated; they're obvious brain disorders according to 99 out of a hundred people
If they're obvious brain disorders, why don't they show up anywhere we look? Why do we diagnose them with questionnaires. The same for 'neuro'-developmental conditions that are very much not neuro, just annoying kids.
>How is this scientific, again?
How is all of psychiatry scientific?
>We have trait X and trait Y. We don't like trait X, but we like trait Y.
>Ackchually, trait X is the result of some brain disorder, whereas trait Y is the result of a healthy brain.
>We ain't got no proof for trait X being a brain disorder-
>yes, but trait X people are costly and annoying. Also, THEY don't know that.
Talk of people trying to make the data fit the model. That's all there is to psychiatry.

>>14601321
this
>>14601343
inability to hold down a job, a long-term relationship. Drop in hygiene or improper eating. Substance abuse. Excessive gambling or purchases that they can't meet bills.
It's common sense.
>And narcissists don't exactly emotionally suffer.
Yes they do. But not only that they make everyone around them suffer too.

>>14603666
What are some things people most often view as paranoid and you don't

>>14603715
>inability to hold down a job, a long-term relationship. Drop in hygiene or improper eating. Substance abuse. Excessive gambling or purchases that they can't meet bills.
Alright, normie opinions on how normies should live life masqueraded as science?
>You will get a job, you will marry that single-parent woman, you won't do drugs except when we tell you to inject them.
Rather be mentally ill then.

>>14603761
Once again, it's about what the person experiencing this considers as undesirable
You seem to fail to understand that what you're talking about is highly relative
You should also take into account that not everything one considers good for them really is, especially with those that suffer disorders, think e.g. substance abuse

>>14603771
You have to fulfill certain criteria before getting diagnosed with a personality disorder. These are ultimately all grounded on subjective opinion statements irrespectively of whether or not the person in question actually finds them distressing. In this regard, your definition of narcissism is idiosyncratic insofar as it does not follow the officially laid out guidelines to diagnosing personality disorders. Subjective distress simply is not a defining part of any of the personality disorders. They only talk about emotional, adaptive etc. limitations caused by that 'disorder' which are subjective opinion statements that psychiatrists make in regards to certain social norms and expectations that the person has to live up to but allegedly can't.
Many personality disorders are also simply slapped on people sitting in psychiatric institutions because the nurses, psychiatrists etc. just feel like it.

There is simply a very intimate connection between psychiatry and social norms/the obligation to work/being productive. Really, all mental disorders revolve around the failure to conform to social norms/being productive etc. What's the point in treating, for example, the complex of ADHD traits? Is it about emotional well-being or just a social reaction based on statistical calculations that show that those high in ADHD traits are more likely to drop out of school and be unproductive? Ignoring that the private sector can push expensive but ineffective treatments on parents of ADHD kids by making them scared of their child's future.

>>14601317
It is weirdly subjective, that's why the DSM is considered bullshit almost everywhere in the world.
Those are constantly evolving classifications but they're still helpful for helping people who exhibit some symptoms and want to get help. We know, statistically, what works well and what doesn't to help them.

>>14603668
I guess you're from the US, psychiatry is notoriously bad over there.

You know how modern psychiatry decide what's a problem and what isn't one and when it needs treatment ? If the symptoms causes some form of suffering to that specific person and prevent them from functioning correctly in society. That's it.

Also schizophrenia, bipolar disorder and severe depression are pretty obvious brain disorders with very specific symptoms that react correctly to the treatment used specifically for them.

>>14603761
>You will get a job, you will marry that single-parent woman, you won't do drugs except when we tell you to inject them.
I mean, good for you if modern society enable you to play video games all day and not caring about anything else. Be glad you don't live in a time or place where being mentally ill would mean death for you because you're unable to live by yourself without several kinds of helps.
That said, be also glad you don't suffer from hallucinations and persecutory delusions making you terrified of leaving your house. That's what some mentally ill people are experiencing.

>>14601317
When I walk into a room and am shaking with fear, or unable to even enter the room, just because there are people there, that isn't an "invented" disorder... There is something genuinely wrong there.

t. AvPD sufferer

>>14603829
Failing to be a functioning member of society, be it in the terms of being productive or forming meaningful relationships is distressing for most people that experience it
You should look more into what ADHD can entail, it's not just about dropping out of school and not finding employment, it's often a myriad difficulties with being organized or with motivation in general as well as being at high risk of developing e.g. depression or anxiety
It is true that if societal norms were different the definitions of many disorders would change or not be relevant at all, but that doesn't diminish how real they are given the norms under which they were established

>>14603844
>I guess you're from the US, psychiatry is notoriously bad over there.
No, I'm in Europe and psychiatry here is just as bad, likely even worse because it is that much easier to detain people in Europe.
>If the symptoms causes some form of suffering to that specific person and prevent them from functioning correctly in society. That's it.
So, it is very clearly not science but a political tool that ensures that people function 'correctly' in society? And by 'correctly' you probably mean things like having a job, paying taxes etc.? Is drapetomania a legitimate disorder in a society based on slavery? According to your commemnt, it is.
>Also schizophrenia, bipolar disorder and severe depression are pretty obvious brain disorders with very specific symptoms that react correctly to the treatment used specifically for them.
If they're obvious brain disorders, why don't we have neurological or biological tests for them? And if they react correctly to the treatment used for them, why are so many cases treatment-resistant? Isn't it weird that pills with patented substances can correctly treat behaviorally defined disorders of the brain, the most complex organ in the body, but we don't have those things for pretty much every other disease?

>>14603879
In light of me spending too much time on this board.
>but wutt about those pills with penicillin.
As said before, an insulin shot doesn't cure diabetes, it merely corrects an arising metabolical issue. The same for many other pills used to treat metabolical issues. These often do work but could also be corrected by changing your diet. Penicillin, in general very useful, but the idea of a pill or a shot for every flu or microbial infection is just ridiculous. They're also often accessory rather than curative.
>>14603856
>You should look more into what ADHD can entail
No, if we were speaking in medical terms only as opposed to some fuzzy psychological terms, one would first have to prove the very existence of ADHD before one could make any comments on what it could possibly entail.
>as well as being at high risk of developing e.g. depression or anxiety
I've heard of ADHD being linked to bipolar disorder until several studies linked ADHD meds to bipolar symptoms. The treatment? Meds for bipolar disorder.
>but that doesn't diminish how real they are given the norms under which they were established
You're right and also wrong. You're right in that the suffering can be very real. You're wrong in clinging to the idea that these disorders are neurologically based and constitute legitimate medical issues despite lacking the evidence.

>>14603668
>What people deem undesirable is subjective.
yeah but he didn't say that everyone finds it undesirable, just that 99% do, which is much more objective