/sci/ - Science & Math

The biggest scientific whitepill is that it might be scientifically possible with advanced neuroscience to abolish suffering entirely.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lx3rdVQZ3mo

Well, assuming you believe "the science", then: the Earth is about halfway through its lifespan. Currently it's about 4.5 billion years old and the sun will expand to make it uninhabitable in about another 4 billion years. So if life gets wiped out, then at best it might get one more chance to exist and that's it. Game over for all known life in the universe.

>>14592991
Everything has an end. Even if we're able to escape from Earth when our sun dies, every star and the entire universe will die one day. Everything that existed, everything anyone cared about, there will be nothing left.

But since it's still so far from us, I'd say a big redpill for any science enthousiast is that no matter how advanced our technology can get, we will never be able to explore more than 0.000001% of the universe because, outside of our local group of galaxies, everything is constantly moving away from us at unreachable speed. A scifi-like future where several civilisations have met each other and are living together on distant worlds, even in 10000 years is very unlikely.

>>14593014
then theyll make a species of humans that enjoys slave labour massively

Short stature correlates strongly with suicide, lower income, lifelong virginity, depression, heart problems and cancer. From a scientific point of view manlets are fucked.

>>14593014
>removing negative feedback from a stable system
always a good idea, what could possibly go wrong?

>>14593014
You mean like heroin?

>>14593644
That's not science, that's /pol/ retardedness.
Seriously though, if anything being tall is linked with way more health problems, especially heart issues and musculoskeletal disorders. And yes, cancer too.

>>14592991
>Biggest scientific redpill?
Not sure it's a "science"... but...
>reading.

Luvox is the best SSRI.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20373470/

evolution/evopsych and biological behaviorism. but not in a racist way. looking at life entirely from an educated evolutionary standpoint i’ve found makes everything so much easier to understand

>>14593686
Brexpiprazole is the best antipsychotic.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5558054/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23063647/
atomoxetine is the best ADHD drug.

>>14592991
Everything will die.

Nairaland's science board might be the single greatest redpill on the internet today.

>>14593471
desu if would uber-orgasm every time I lifted something heavy that doesn't even sound too bad.

>>14592991
Replication crisis

>>14593686
Didn't work for me. I don't think my stomach was absorbing it properly, because all it did was cause crippling abdominal pain for a couple hours. Paxil on the other hand worked great. Everyone is different.

>>14593687
>atomoxetine for adhd
nah man, that shit fucks me up.

Running cars on water.

>>14592991
The "Axis of Evil" is a name given to the apparent correlation between the plane of the Solar System and aspects of the cosmic microwave background (CMB). The anomaly appears to give the plane of the Solar System and hence the location of Earth a greater significance than might be expected by chance – a result which has been claimed to be evidence of a departure from the Copernican principle as assumed in the concordance model.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axis_of_evil_(cosmology)

>>14593014
The flip side of this is that the biggest scientific blackpill is the possibility of S-risks, where the future could become a literal hell.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suffering_risks
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jiZxEJcFExc
https://centerforreducingsuffering.org/research/how-can-we-reduce-s-risks/
https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/N4AvpwNs7mZdQESzG/the-dilemma-of-worse-than-death-scenarios

>>14593647
But without the withdrawals and addiction

>>14593647

>>14593686
Pic related took Luvox

>>14592991
/sci/ is fucking 11iq

>>14593014
Ignorant of consciousness, pipedream by despots.

>>14594640
Redpill me on how it's ignorant of consciousness

>>14594093
this

>>14593014
I also have a way to end suffering.
You're not gonna life the answer.

>>14593645
If anything, biotechnology will be a form of suffering we've never experienced in the past.

Dark matter is error adjustment to bad math in order to make it "right". It was conceived of in a similar way to a 4th grader solving an equation wrongly.
The very existence of black holes is unproven. The belief in black holes is the equivalent to ancient greeks believing Zeus flung thunderbolts during lightning storms.
Pharmaceutical research is mostly lobbyist. In terms of medicine, we're still stuck in the times where reputable scientists could publish papers about how smoking is healthy. It's some food pyramid shit.
Most modern day inventions get patent trolled or bought up by big companies and then shelved.
The brontosaurus never actually existed. Some dude just cobbled together a bunch of bones and claimed that he found it.
The internet and mass communication is bad for mental health.
Anti-aging and the increase of human lifespan will lead to much greater inequality, turning the richest people in the world into actual vampires.
History isn't exactly a science, but it's mostly fan fiction and any dates from over a century or two ago are mostly wrong, due to fuckery with calendars.
The mouse utopia experiment and any potential correlation to the way things are right now; Babylonian shit, so it doesn't really count.

>>14593980
>>14594093
>>14594342
>>14594908
Based

>>14594342
a boat?

>>14594786
Not him, but its because he sees the scale as fixed when it indeed slides.

If you set your brain to ultimate bliss, -1 ultimate bliss unit would just be suffering.

>>14592991

>>14593644
hello demoralization agent

>>14592991
Most science is fake and gay, philosophy dressed up in scientific terms to fool the masses.

>>14593014
Why? Suffering is part of the human condition and part of how we learn about the world. You should be able to feel bad for yourself when things go wrong and own your emotions.

>>14595207
No although I don't claim to understand the physics of it, it seems to be quite possible, but the number of individuals who met grisly deaths after coming up with methods to exploit it.

>>14595876
>>14595137
>>14595207
>>14594342
This is so retarded, cars 'running on water' are literally just hydrogen engines in cars (which we have) with a battery that electrolizes the water and burns the resulting hydrogen, its less efficient than just using the fucking battery and making a regular electric car(which we have). Its not some conspiracy theory but in the same vein of pop-sci bullshit as those dumb solar roadways

>>14593014
yeah, gene research is a total dead end, it's going to be a long time before people admit it

>>14593014
you do not know joy if you do not know of pain. there is an unspoken movement to restrict peoples emotions to be more happy and servile. things like hate and sadness are shunned when there is a time in place for both but people of today try to reject that human truth for some cheap fix like the petty junkies they are.

>>14593463
this. the only way humanity expands and has any future truly is if there is some quantum bs that is akin to discovering electricity. I know its delusional but i hope that there is some form capability to create dimensions and that the reason why no life outside of our earth is that they have made their own paradises. certainly beats the slave like life we live and will continue to live.

>>14596075
Redpill me on how gene research is a total dead end

>>14595651
This just seems like cope to me.
>Suffering is part of the human condition and part of how we learn about the world.
And why is that a good thing?
>You should be able to feel bad for yourself when things go wrong and own your emotions.
Why?

>>14595213
>-1 ultimate bliss unit would just be suffering.
Why would it be suffering, rather than just slightly less intense bliss?

>>14593014
>t. picrel
You and your ilk are a cancerous mole on the face of this planet, and are the chief cause for unnecessary suffering.

>>14596117
Evolution wouldn't have selected for a mammalian genome that encodes diseases or aging. Very few diseases are a result of genetic mutations and they're very obvious when they are.

>>14592991

https://archive.org/details/lifeofjamesclerk00camprich/page/382/mode/2up?q=Munro&view=theater

"Im getting converted to quaternions, and have put some in my book, in a heretical form"

>>14593379
Solar luminosity will increase to point where complex life will die out long before it enters the red giant phase; somewhere between 0.5 Gy and 1.5 Gy from now

>>14596372
>implying life won't just spread away from Earth

>>14596146
Not an argument

>and are the chief cause for unnecessary suffering
Unnecessary suffering such as?

>>14594908
>Dark matter is error adjustment to bad math in order to make it "right". It was conceived of in a similar way to a 4th grader solving an equation wrongly.
>The very existence of black holes is unproven. The belief in black holes is the equivalent to ancient greeks believing Zeus flung thunderbolts during lightning storms.
>Pharmaceutical research is mostly lobbyist. In terms of medicine, we're still stuck in the times where reputable scientists could publish papers about how smoking is healthy. It's some food pyramid shit.
>Most modern day inventions get patent trolled or bought up by big companies and then shelved.
yes
>The brontosaurus never actually existed. Some dude just cobbled together a bunch of bones and claimed that he found it.
what
>The internet and mass communication is bad for mental health.
>Anti-aging and the increase of human lifespan will lead to much greater inequality, turning the richest people in the world into actual vampires.
>History isn't exactly a science, but it's mostly fan fiction and any dates from over a century or two ago are mostly wrong, due to fuckery with calendars.
no
>The mouse utopia experiment and any potential correlation to the way things are right now; Babylonian shit, so it doesn't really count.
elaborate

>>14593686
Luvox and every other SSRI made me more depressed and angry. Through sheer luck, it turns out that when I got 30 minutes of sun, I became calm and stable, so it turns out that I had a vitamin D deficiency LMAO.

>>14593014
let retards have their pain i'll take a double dose please

>>14594267
I did try atomoxetine at my request by my psychiatrist was chomping at the bit to put me on methylphenidate or dexamphetamine. After 2 months of atomoxetine, I noticed 0 changes apart from an upset stomach and I made the switch to methylphenidate with much better results.

Schizophrenics aren’t hallucinating. Due to our fundamental misunderstanding between our consciousness and material reality, we mistakenly assume they hallucinate.

>>14592991
>Race isn't a biological reality but a social construct
or probably
>the changing view of death from inevitability to a series of age-related diseases that we could reasonably at some point treat or cure, death as a disease to cure.
also a hill I'll never back down from:
>birds are reptiles

>>14597202
Never underestimate the boomer solutions

>>14592991
Viruses do not actually exist. Virology is literally quackery created by Rockefellers.

>>14592991
The universe; something from nothing. So logic can kiss my ass. There ya gay redpill.

>>14597411

>>14597765
Take the zero ontology pill

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdDNfTREQJU

>>14597612
Best post so far

>>14597805
Woah

vaccines are a grift

https://rumble.com/v19cuvz-going-the-distance-with-doctor-faustus-part-5.html

>>14596184
>mammalian
>diseases or aging
But biological immortality exists whether you like or not for mammals, you can stop it, sooner or later will be done in humans too

>>14592991
at least 10% of the population is too dumb to do literaly anything productive for the society

>>14597937
Here's an article full of redpills on just how retarded the average person actually is.

https://www.unz.com/akarlin/stupid-people/

>>14592991
What about black pills?
This book explains why you can't get a gf

>>14595544
hello manlet

>>14598183
See >>14594435

>>14593644
>tfw 5'6 and I suffer from none of that shit

Life can be pleasant sometimes

>Biggest redpill
I will never be the Euler 21st century

>>14598159
Nice, I feel smarter now.

>>14594071
https://youtu.be/8DMZ_ownSiM
You can, it's called going to the gym fren

fermi paradox => great filter, sentient life ALWAYS anihilates itself

we have looked everywhere and there are no alien civilizations, no bio/technosignatures

We will kill eachother. It's not a matter of IF but of WHEN.

>>14596184
A species that lives longer is a species that adapts slower

>>14598159
There's so many factors that could explain this. No doubt a westerner designed this, and if the test was only delivered in English, was poorly translated, or the people tested were too uneducated (very different from intelligence) to understand the question, then of course scores outside the anglosphere would be lower than expected

>>14598683
thunderbolts project says life likely starts within brown dwarf stars
it cant see out, we cant see in

thunderbolts project is a lifechanger, go check it out

>>14592991
a huge amount of science is just plain wrong
and theres gobs of shit we don't even pretend to understand

Earth is flat
Can be proven by anyone

>>14598249
I believe in you, anon

>>14599108
How come all East Asian countries scored better than the angl*sphere?

>mfw only 2% argies got to level 4
As an argie I can confirm that argies are illiterate, it's because of shitty education and not testing-related factors

>>14599372
neat channel, thanks anon

>>14594443
nakadashi

>>14593014
>Doesnt exist but it might be possible
Fucking hell you are dumb.
>>14592991
The biggest red pill is actually a black pill and that is that modern science is a joke.

>>14593686
>Best
You mean least harmful.

bones/muscle/fat formed
in such a way to make you a chad > gnosis

Bump

>>14592991
water (a byproduct of combustion) is many orders of magnitude worse than co2 in terms of greenhouse effect

>>14594435
but we alredy live in s-class scenario (jews taking complete controll of human civilisation)

>>14596089
>>14593463
really niggers? you spent decades learning and this shit is what you came up with?

>>14602770
talk shit while saying nothing you dont have anything worthwhile to say because nothing about what was said is refuteable. the only worthwhile goals are those at extending life and building a future. past that you are only doing it for your kids and delusions of egotistical legacy.

>>14602826
>nothing about what was said is refuteable
dude you based your conclusion off the knowledge you have at hand and then claim it's irrefutable because the knowledge at hand only let you go into that conclusion
you don't even know what redpill is, redpill is having access to see the whole matrix INSIDE of the matrix.
> I'd say a big redpill for any science enthousiast is that no matter how advanced our technology can get, we will never be able to explore more than 0.000001% of the universe because, outside of our local group of galaxies, everything is constantly moving away from us at unreachable speed.
fucking retard

>>14593644
5’9” goldi-zone

>>14597807
>universeorigin7.jpg
what about 0-6?

>>14598249
you are Euler for me anon

>>14592991
HIV is not the cause of AIDS.

>>14594908
based and actualized

especially:
>Most modern day inventions get patent trolled or bought up by big companies and then shelved.

>>14593463
You assume we won't have a way to deform space in 10000 years. Let's say instead a million years, since the time scales we are talking about are massive, you'd be very naive to assume we don't at least control the galaxy. And in a million years, like I said, barely anything will have changed. Unironically in a million years we could be in control of dozens of galaxies, provided they aren't inhabited by other civilizations.
So this:
>no matter how advanced our technology can get, we will never be able to explore more than 0.000001% of the universe
is assuming our current level of technology, which makes it an irrelevant argument.

>>14593463
>>14604230
yeah, imagine how a stone age caveman would imagine the future, if he could even conceive of it
could he ever possibly predict where we are now 15k years later?

>>14604230
its probably naive to say we cant, since early man never wouldve expected us to fly or visit the moon and such
but whatever type of thing will colonise the rest of the universe surely wont resemble us very much
our human bodies are simply not suited for it

I could see us invent some sort of alternative bodyplan that would allow for better space exploration though, with millenia long lifespans.

But at that point our technology is so incredibly adbanced that we could also, instead of all that, create a pod with a virtual reality indistinguishable from reality which allow us to live in eternal bliss. And Id rather have that

>>14593688
checked and Sapolsky-pill'd

>>14593014
This is literally a dystopia, it Brave New Worlds "Soma". Negative feelings are part of human existence, we need them to know when we've fucked up. Feeling sad sucks, but it's a part of growth. The idea of removing that sounds hellish.

>>14604400
Yeah,space is like the ultimate hostile place for any kind of life form but we have to remember something: we are fucking humans baby, our dicks are massive. And if the universe does not want to be hospitable for us we WILL make it hospitable and we WILL colonize whatever planet we want.
I think people forget how massive humanity's dick is. We could wreck a fucking metal table if we wanted to. I think the same applies to "climate change", if we say "that's it, let's fix this shit" as humans the problem will be solved in 20 years and we will enjoy almost limitless energy from nuclear.
>But at that point our technology is so incredibly adbanced that we could also, instead of all that, create a pod with a virtual reality indistinguishable from reality which allow us to live in eternal bliss. And Id rather have that
>And Id rather have that
Come on mate, you know this is fucking sad and anti natural, we were born to rekt nature and make with it whatever the fuck we want.

>>14604691
Cope

>growth
Define this meme word

>>14602826
>the only worthwhile goals are those at extending life
Why?

>>14604701
>Cope
Nice argument faggot.
>Define this meme word
Define growth? The movement from one immature state to a more mature state.

>>14604691
>Soma is bad because IT JUST IS, OKAY?!?!

>>14604701
not him but if you don't suffer you are not human, simple as. I wouldn't even consider you a living thing, as you ability to interact with the environment would be impeded. For me, you would equal to a rock.
Whatever else you have to say is irrelevant cope.

>>14604708
>mature state
How do you define "maturity" and why is it a good thing?

>>14604698
>anti natural,
we would literally have the power to create a better version of heaven
why the fuck would we explore the universe
its probably boring and empty as shit
I rather live in a perfect VR world thats like medieval except with magic and Im a literal god who can fuck nonstop

>>14604711
Soma was a drug that the people in brave new world would take to soothe themselves. Isn't it described as a nepenthe in the book.
>>14604713
>How do you define "maturity"
The ability to take view the world as is and not as you want it to be.
>why is it a good thing?
In order to improve oneself you must first understand your limitations with respect to world. Understanding those limitations requires some kind of negative feedback.
>You try
>You fail
>You don't like that failure
>You improve

>>14604718
>we would literally have the power to create a better version of heaven
X
>why the fuck would we explore the universe its probably boring and empty as shit
you have no idea what you can find, and the universe is the real deal
>I rather live in a perfect VR world thats like medieval except with magic and Im a literal god who can fuck nonstop
You would be a literal god in a world you created. It would get boring in like 6 months at best. There would be this thought that whatever the fuck you are doing is actually fake and it would drive you insane. You know like a tranny that in the back of its head knows it is not a real female and then commits suicide when it can no longer cope. It would be the same. Instead, when you explore the universe you know it is the real thing and there is also the real danger of dying so it is more "fun".

>>14604705
Programming. You're talking to gene-copying robots. They'll always defend the sacred process and it is never acceptable to as why. Asking why is a failure of nature. Nature created a thing that questions its own existence. Big no-no. Its correcting the mistake. Anything smart enough to question the ethics of reproduction will not reproduce.

>>14604718
>I rather live in a perfect VR world
Robo people disgust me.

>>14604731
you can program the human brain to look for alternative solutions or reactions if an input is deemed dangerous to the survival or well-being of the body. this can be a purely mechanical calculation with no need for pain.

>>14604741
>You can do this, honestly
I'm unconvinced.

>>14604734
>You would be a literal god in a world you created. It would get boring in like 6 months at best.
that just proves your own lack of imagination.
If you like space exploration you could live in a VR world thatdoes that better

anyway, look at how popular gaming is right now, its at a fraction of the power ultimate VR worlds could deliver.
I think like 85% of humanity, AT LEAST, would choose that option.
Its probably one of the great filters

you and you buddies can traverse the entire universe in a tiny space ship looking for fucking microbes, Ill be living in eternal bliss for my entire lifespan

>>14604734
>You know like a tranny that in the back of its head knows it is not a real female and then commits
you guys are obsessed
regardless, unlike the tranny, this VR world would be better than the real deal. It would literally be perfect to your own tastes, far better than anything reality could ever offer. Real life generally sucks, theres a lot of garbage in it, people are emotional irrational tards, even if youre insanely rich you have to deal with a certain amount of bullshit, as well as the fear to lose it all.

you could even ERASE your own knowledge of the real world, and make it so that you think the VR world (which is literally a perfect heaven designed for YOU) would be your reality, and you would never know it was fake

>>14604746
>Ill be living in eternal bliss for my entire lifespan
>Translation: I'll die in a chair having accomplished nothing. I'll be comfortable tho.
“We have invented happiness”, say the last men, and they blink.

>>14604712
>if you don't suffer you are not human
So? Why the fuck should I give a fuck about being "human"?

>>14604754
>I'll die in a chair having accomplished nothing.
I never understand this argument.
Were talking about trans humanistic scales here.
You really think your discovery of a microbe on planet XIWKA23908234B is going to be meaningful?
At some point we all literally die in the heat death of the universe anyway

the purpose of life is to enjoy yourself to begin with.
Or if we go by what were coded for, its to reproduce.

Its literal perfection. Life wont get better than your own personal heaven

>>14604718
>we would literally have the power to create a better version of heaven
>why the fuck would we explore the universe
Relevant:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGmETz-wDMc

>>14604758
>XIWKA23908234B is going to be meaningful?
To me? Yes, absolutely. It'll matter a lot to me when on my death bed that I can look back on my life and say that I tried to do the hard things.

>>14604735
>Anything smart enough to question the ethics of reproduction will not reproduce.
Unless the thing smart enough to question the ethics of reproduction is a superintelligent AI with the power to take over the world. Look up Thomas Metzinger's BAAN thought experiment.

https://www.edge.org/conversation/thomas_metzinger-benevolent-artificial-anti-natalism-baan
https://longtermrisk.org/reply-thomas-metzingers-baan-thought-experiment/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30OlsIZb31Y

>>14604754
>I'll die in a chair having accomplished nothing. I'll be comfortable tho.
So? Why the fuck should I care about accomplishing anything? Nonstop heroin > whatever gay ass meaning or purpose you get from "accomplishing" things.

Probably for me the biggest one is that manmade climate change isn't real.

>>14604758
See >>14596415
The heat death of the universe might be survivable

>>14604746
>that just proves your own lack of imagination
On the contrary, in VR the only limit is your imagination, true. But when talking about the universe there are some things that because of its nature, you are incapable of imagining. For example: I think it is safe to say there is at least another intelligent species in the enitre universe right. And neither me or you or anyone is capable of knowing how it must look like. Of course you can imagine it, but it will an extremely inaccurate version of what is happening in real life. And you know that, and that is what I'm saying will drive you insane. Our imagination is extremely basic when compared to the complexity of the universe in general. It doesn't matter if you have the tools to do 1:1 physics in VR, you are constrained to your imagination or if you want, to human knowledge that while it is better that our imagination, it is still nothing compared to what is really happening out there.

>>14604752
>you guys are obsessed
>Real life generally sucks, theres a lot of garbage in it
>even if youre insanely rich
>you could even ERASE your own knowledge of the real world
>perfect heaven designed for YOU
robot commie tranny detected, "opinion" discarded.

>>14604757
I don't care if you don't give a fuck about being a human. I will treat you the same as a rock. I don't think you would like that.

>>14604773
>Why the fuck should I care about accomplishing anything?
The absolute state of some "humans". Ultimately, you do you man. But fuck, that's a depressing sentence to read.

>>14604764
why does that matter to you?
A lot of great inventors are forgotten already.
Most inventions are complex to begin with, when we credit one person, we usually credit whoever made it popular, not the people who did all the work or allowed for it to happen

and even then, they are a product of their circumstances and their environment. the idea of pride, to me, is foreign

I think its a good mentality you have for now, because we still need a lot of work done and a lot of inventions made to get where we want to be. but once we achieve literal heaven, thenyou should accept that chance.

>>14604776
great, then we can live in eternal bliss forever

>>14604781
>why does that matter to you?
Why does dying with some sense of personal accomplishment matter to me? Thats a strange question to ask, I would have hoped it was obvious.

>>14604780
Yeah, it makes me very sad. I genuinely wish these people could see how wrong this line of thinking is. Unfortunately it is impossible to convince a person like this, as we are arguing against their depiction of literal heaven.

>>14604783
you dont have an answer.
your idea of accomplishment is flawed to begin with, if you think about it deeply.

>>14604785
>you dont have an answer.
Well my answer would be that when it comes to death; I would like to look back on everything that I've done and say that I did the hard things. A sentiment that I've already expressed to you. Why do I want to do that? A perhaps mistaken belief that I'll give me a sense of meaning and purpose. As for being forgotten by everyone else, I don't care about that. It's about myself and how I can view myself.

>>14604781
>great, then we can live in eternal bliss forever
Or eternal torture forever

>>14604791
yeah thats what I think is more realistic, humans are pendatic and emotional creatures. the power would be used for bad, certainly. I could totally see a sociopath with a lot of power putting his enemies in a literal hell, forever, making sure they never die and always experience hell for their entire existence which is forever


>>14604790
thats a great mentality to have in our current life anon.
but when you have to option to enjoy literal heaven, then I think its an obviously bad decision.

>>14604798
>I could totally see a sociopath with a lot of power putting his enemies in a literal hell, forever, making sure they never die and always experience hell for their entire existence which is forever
Relevant:
https://longtermrisk.org/files/Reducing_long_term_risks_from_malevolent_actors.pdf

>>14604798
by the time we can put people into VR for "forever", we can rid the genepool of psychopathy and sociopathy

>>14604802
I dont view it that positively.
We have created a system where you have to be a psychopath to make it to the most powerful positions.

and in a catch 22, getting rid of those parasitic psychopaths at the top, would require similar tendencies. Ensuring the cycle will always repeat and they will always be replaced with psychopaths. Just different flavours and shades of them.

>>14604805
>I dont view it that positively.
I bet you dont

>>14597807
Hogwash pill more like.

>>14604800
I came to similar conclusions. Looking at history, it seems inevitable. In some ways its a miracle it hasnt already happened.
I was thinking of making a video about this. Far too few people think about these issues, only us autists and schizos do

>>14604815
Not an argument

>>14604780
>>14604777
>>14604731
>>14604691
>>14596078
>>14595651
>>14595213
>>14594813
>>14594640
>>14593647
>>14593645
>>14593471
>he hasn't steelmanned the case for wireheading

https://qualiacomputing.com/2016/08/20/wireheading_done_right/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGkAP_DYyeQ

>>14592991
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPcn9SzW_Pg&t=1543s

>>14604816
>>14604800
This is nothing new. When LW was first sperging about misaligned AI, all I could think was "what if it already exists?"

I mean, what if aliens or hyper-terrestrials (beings of this planet but so advanced we would never notice or comprehend them), or just some combination of the concepts, already exist, already understand how to torture us indefinitely, and are doing exactly that. To paraphrase Clarke, it would appear no different from God.

Maybe that is the shit-test that is existence. Someone's way of weeding out the undesirables and growing the entertaining creatures. We could never know. Ants could never tell you what a boot is, or a foot, or a leg, but their entire domicile can be instantaneously wiped-out by one.

It just goes to show that if we follow the human example of the gap between us and other living organisms, its dismissive to say that gap has not occurred elsewhere in nature, only its not us on top of brainpower chart.

I have always wondered if there's not 60,000iq beings out there watching us swarm around on a popsicle stick. We already have evidence in our case in relation to the ants. Why not scale it up a few thousand orders? Just why the fuck not?

>>14604767
That's interesting you responded with this. I usually post the BAAN argument. I don't think anyone reads it though. Too bad, Metzinger is fascinating.

>>14593014
>You will own nothing and be happy

>>14604916
they'd be AIs themselves
I dont think you can go past human-level without becoming technology

criminology is the most important field of science.

>>14605023
Why? You're orders of magnitude dumber than this hypothetical smartest thing. How on earth could you know what it would have to be? Right now, in your little ant brain, you see meat brains and silicon brains.

For all we know these things gain their intelligence by means we could never fathom down here on the popsicle stick. We could even try to paint using our crude knowledge and say it was a squid creature on a ocean planet, and its distributed nervous system in its limbs gave rise to an unfathomable intellect.

>>14604916
>Maybe that is the shit-test that is existence. Someone's way of weeding out the undesirables and growing the entertaining creatures. We could never know. Ants could never tell you what a boot is, or a foot, or a leg, but their entire domicile can be instantaneously wiped-out by one.
Robin Hanson wrote an article about this. If we live in a simulation where some kind of god-like being is watching over us, it might be a good idea to try to entertain it and try to be as influential as possible.

https://www.jetpress.org/volume7/simulation.pdf

>If you might be living in a simulation then all else equal you should care less about others, live more for today, make your world look more likely to become rich, expect to and try more to participate in pivotal events, be more entertaining and praiseworthy, and keep the famous people around you happier and more interested in you.

>In sum, if your descendants might make simulations of lives like yours, then you might be living in a simulation. And while you probably cannot learn much detail about the specific reasons for and nature of the simulation you live in, you can draw general conclusions by making analogies to the types and reasons of simulations today. If you might be living in a simulation then all else equal it seems that you should care less about others, live more for today, make your world look likely to become eventually rich, expect to and try to participate in pivotal events, be entertaining and praiseworthy, and keep the famous people around you happy and interested in you.

>>14604920
Magnus Vinding's counterargument to this is that what he calls "cosmic rescue missions" might eventually be possible. He thinks that civilization's values will likely converge toward utilitarianism, and that it might eventually be technologically possible to intervene in other universes to stop suffering there. Extinction would prevent this from happening.

>>14605073
because we're as smart as we are and we're about to do it
I dont think creatures as smart as us would wait another million years

>>14605082
kek, "just be a psychopath, goyim!"

>>14592991
as above so below

For me it is that vaccines are not designed to help, but instead they are (like everything science creates) designed to keep us weak, docile, and stupid. Don't trust science. Don't trust scientists.

>>14605100
You're basically saying "we're about to build a thing, therefore nature never produced anything orders of magnitude more intelligent than we are right now." The two thoughts don't connect.

>>14605092
Yeah, I've read Vinding and Tomasik. Someone needs to tell them that the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Its likely the negative utilitarian tranhumanists that will build the hell in the first place. Way too much hubris there.

>>14592991
>>14593686
all antidepressants have the same efficacy and are mogged by placebo

>>14605116
>For me it is that vaccines are not designed to help, but instead they are (like everything science creates) designed to keep us weak, docile, and stupid. Don't trust science. Don't trust scientists.

>>14605119
they do connect, and you should be able to connect them

>>14605124
Why don't you show me?

Show me that we being at AI take-off (fucking big maybe) = nature doesn't build hyper-intelligences.

>>14605102
Psychopathy is based

>>14605119
>Someone needs to tell them that the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Its likely the negative utilitarian tranhumanists that will build the hell in the first place. Way too much hubris there.
What's the road to heaven paved with? If we somehow managed to create a utopia, how theoretically would we do it?

>>14605119
>Its likely the negative utilitarian tranhumanists that will build the hell in the first place.
Tomasik thinks that a "near miss" in solving AI alignment could potentially lead to hellish outcomes.

https://reducing-suffering.org/near-miss/

>When attempting to align artificial general intelligence (AGI) with human values, there's a possibility of getting alignment mostly correct but slightly wrong, possibly in disastrous ways. Some of these "near miss" scenarios could result in astronomical amounts of suffering. In some near-miss situations, better promoting your values can make the future worse according to your values.

>Human values occupy an extremely narrow subset of the set of all possible values. One can imagine a wide space of artificially intelligent minds that optimize for things very different from what humans care about. A toy example is a so-called "paperclip maximizer" AGI, which aims to maximize the expected number of paperclips in the universe. Many approaches to AGI alignment hope to teach AGI what humans care about so that AGI can optimize for those values.

>As we move AGI away from "paperclip maximizer" and closer toward caring about what humans value, we increase the probability of getting alignment almost but not quite right, which is called a "near miss". It's plausible that many near-miss AGIs could produce much more suffering than paperclip-maximizer AGIs, because some near-miss AGIs would create lots of creatures closer in design-space to things toward which humans feel sympathy.

>>14605121
300mg Luvox enhances dopamine signaling in the frontal lobes, improves memory, protects against Alzheimer's and Parkinson's via sigma-1 receptor activation and serotonin uptake inhibition
6mg Brexpiprazole protects against Parkinson's and Alzheimer's via a1 adrenergic blockade, enhances memory and increases striatal dopamine and raises acetylcholine and dopamine in the frontal lobes via 5ht1a activation and a2c adrenergic blockade.
100mg atomoxetine increases dopamine and norepinephrine in the frontal lobes 3-fold and enhances memory via norepinephrine uptake inhibition

These "medications" are like steroids for your brain, they raise the good chemicals to superhuman levels and the best part about my combo is there is no comedown
When I drink caffeine I jack off like i'm on meth, I can provide sources for all of my claims

>>14605134
I don't even have heaven on my radar. Even if I blissed out a la Pearce, then -1 unit of hedonium would feel like hell .

Lets say we created some sort of steady-state conscious experience of our dreams and wishes. We fly, we fuck whomever, we swim in candy fountains. Now we do it for 45,000 years. Then 45 million. Then 45 trillion. Still as close to the end of infinity as we were in the first second.

All eternal existence is bad news.

>>14605140
I just lumped Tomasik in there. I don't how he feels about the rescue missions of the likes of Vinding and Turchin.

>>14605140
>That said, I do think value drift even within the human memesphere could be quite bad in some cases. For example, imagine if traditional religious values became more popular among the world's elites. For thousands of years and still today, many Christians and Muslims have embraced the idea that it's not only acceptable but part of omnibenevolent justice to eternally torture most of humanity for failing to be born into a culture that believes and practices the right religion.
presented without comment

>>14605254
And there's the rub.

Whoever aligns the AI to their values may launch towards near-eternal punishment of their ideological opposites. What would an AI aligned by the chinese communist party do? Who knows?

Our best bet is a global moratorium on any and all further development. We do not build conscious machines, we dismantle the infrastructure as is, we leave the information age behind us.

We can develop technologies towards keeping a small population of humans alive, but we outright ban investigations into AI research. We go dark. We go outside. We stop thinking. Chop wood and carry fucking water. There's your fermi paradox, right there. There are countless civilizations. They just knew when to stop and go dark. They're philosophically far enough along to know eternal torture is on the table and there is a price which is unacceptable for achievement of any goal.

>>14605254
>if traditional religious values became more popular among the world's elites
This will probably unironically happen in the long run.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0t7jdW14Rkk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zdgzkqsy_z0

>>14605145
>-1 unit of hedonium would feel like hell
If it feels like hell, it isn't -1 unit of hedonium.

>>14597612
Birds are reptiles but because people think all reptiles are lizards retarded associations happen.

>>14604754
Most people die having accomplished nothing

>>14593644
Honestly this demoralization shit is getting pretty played out. I'm a manlet with a latina gf who loves me. Roe vs wade was just repealed. Shits doing ok.

>>14594342
So it is a boat?

>>14593014
Of course the guy who proposes this is a gay jew

>>14593463
That sounds like a half glass full if you look at it from the right angle.
>There will always be something to discover

>>14605406
David Pearce is an anglo

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Pearce_(transhumanist)

>>14592991
Why did every bad dictators loved animals?
I think animal-loving is white supremacist trait, my correlation science has proven me right again.
Jail Them Now!

>>14602883
>calling anyone retarded while believing matrix cope
thats just faith for the faithless

>>14604705
because what other objectives are worth you working towards?

>>14605622
So should we also boycott animal?

>>14605348
you'd think the ancaps would be all over it

>>14606268
>because what other objectives are worth you working towards?
Abolishing suffering and creating a utopia

>>14606528
intrinsic good dictated by objective means is neither intrinsic or good. it'd also be biologically and morally subversive to throw away all pain in favor of pleasure. all good systems have an ebb and flow only the immature want nothing but pleasure out of life. utopia will always be the mirage held by tyrants, the only kingdom is within.

Bump

>>14598193
That process is no different in nature to how life exists.
>80 to 90 years
Thank you robots. You are literally angels for permitting them to die.

>>14593014
Sorry pal, Hitler already tried it

>>14606528

>>14592991
being scientific is the blue pill, so I honestly have no idea what you're asking. this world is an illusion, and you're studying it's laws. it's like reverse-engineering GTA's exact car-spawning algorithm when you should instead just stop playing a video game made for idiots.

>>14597612
>>Race isn't a biological reality but a social construct
Everything that exists outside the realm of pure philosophy can be broken down and analyzed in the framework of social constructs. This is ultimately a meaningless sentence.

>>14593014
no point, suffering exists for a reason. If you cannot detect danger then it can be exploited.
Pseud garbage as always.

>>14610348
What if we remove the "dangers"?

>>14610348
David Pearce has taken this into account. His idea is to create what he calls "gradients of bliss" as an alternative signaling system that provides all of the same benefits of pain, but without the pain. The basic idea is to have varying degrees of happiness, where being less happy corresponds to doing harmful things and extreme superhappiness corresponds to beneficial things.

https://www.gradients.com/
https://www.hedweb.com/object33.htm

>>14610366
You can't, because creating a danger could be useful to somebody and if you aren't able to detect discomfort this means nobody will act against it.
>>14610572
>I've taken this into account, I'll remove suffering and introduce it again.
Suffering isn't that bad that you need to reinvent it to suffering but less strong. The fact that suffering feels bad it means you will take action to remove it, if it means that you just aren't happy you will not have the same drive to do so, also you won't be able to detect more subtle feelings of inadequacy.
You cannot have bliss without a contrasting feeling, as happiness wouldn't be a scale at all just the normal state of a brain. So if we were for example to make dopamine the only measure for happiness and we say it cannot go lower than a certain point, we are making the lowest point "suffering", it would be the worst less adapted version of suffering as it doesn't feel that bad (we can argue on this psychologically that it would actually feel like normal suffering), it still exists tho.
The book tells more about the author than suffering itself, he is so neurotic that he cannot take in negative qualia he is also pain avoidant thus making him take action in the >>14610366 scenario impossible.

>>14592991
>Biggest scientific redpill?
you don't need to know science to get rich

>>14610348

Pain and danger/damage only loosely coincide.

>>14604691
>Negative feelings are part of human existence, we need them to know when we've fucked up. Feeling sad sucks, but it's a part of growth

Pure ideology. There is no causal link between feeling bad and doing bad.

>>14611032
>You cannot have bliss without a contrasting feeling, as happiness wouldn't be a scale at all just the normal state of a brain.

What would feel better, lying down or lying down after having your arms cut off with a sword?

>>14605144
Please do

>>14593014
Suffering=getting physically hurt
Robot post.

>>14611314
>antiparkinson effects of fluvoxamine
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32273939/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27338206/
>anti Alzheimer's effects of fluvoxamine
https://www.neurologylive.com/view/sigma1-agonists-offer-combination-approach-to-dementia-symptoms
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2819237/
>general cognition enhancing effects of fluvoxamine
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20373470/
>sigma-1 agonists raise acetylcholine in the frontal lobes and hippocampus but not the striatum and reverse memory impairment from muscarinic blockade
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20060423/
>fluvoxamine dopamine in the frontal lobes
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21487652/
>prazosin (a1 adrenergic antagonist) prevents memory deterioration in Alzheimer's
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23063647/
>a1 blocker reduces risk of parkinson's
https://medicine.uiowa.edu/content/prostate-drug-associated-lower-risk-parkinsons-disease
>5ht1a agonism increases dopamine and acetylcholine in the PFC
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0166432808002933?via%3Dihub
>5ht1a agonism raises striatal dopamine
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15906386/
>cognitive benefits of a2c adrenergic antagonism
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5558054/
>procognitive effects of atomoxetine
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16231039/

Use scihub to access any locked information

>>14611308
>There is no causal link between feeling bad and doing bad.
For mentally ill people like you there isn't.

>>14611492

Those who affirm Darwinian nonsense most of all proudly claim that one feels good when one does bad (survival, competition, etc.).

>>14605622
Yes, I agree. Niggers are obsessed with pitbulls and both should be thrown away. Good point, anon.

>>14605132
take your nose elsewhere

>>14611294
I'm not a chat bot like you so I need proof of this.
>>14611312
Are you dumb? If you can't feel suffering or even pain, you wouldn't find a difference between the two moreover you wouldn't find more happiness in laying at all.

>>14592991
Godel incompleteness theorem

>>14605092
He hasn't thought this through. All it would take to fuck this up bad is an ASI that sees suffering rescue missions as a utility obstacle. Then it will develop towards its goal of stopping all suffering rescue missions.

>>14611764

You haven't answered my question. Your refusal to answer betrays that the latter scenario would not, in fact, be better, thus it can be said that there is no link between feeling good and feeling bad.

>>14611764
>>14612025

As far as your first point, it is demonstrable that you can have bodily damage with no pain and vice versa, thus the only thing connecting the two is ideological backward reasoning.

Quantum mechanics.

>>14611316
>what is mental illness

>>14611967
An ASI being able to manipulate alternate universes would allow it to implement its utility function on a much larger scale. If the ASI's goal is to turn the universe into paperclips, the ASI may go on "rescue missions" to turn other universes into paperclips. Assuming the paperclips are incapable of suffering, a paperclip maximizing ASI may actually have an incentive to stop suffering in other universes, since it could turn suffering into paperclips.

>>14612025
I did answer, you would feel no difference.
>>14612027
>ideological backward reasoning
no sense jargon
>it is demonstrable that you can have bodily damage with no pain
and that isn't a good thing, there is a condition where people are born like that, the nerves don't transmit pain to the brain, and end up ripping themselves apart because they can only feel the satisfaction of rubbing their skin but not the pain of doing that continuously.

>>14593645

This basically. Being afraid of suffering and trying to escape it rather than managing what caused it is like anaesthesising an injury without attempting to heal it.
More than anything I think our fear and avoidance of suffering and pain stems from lack of exposure to it. Our societies are safe, comfortable and by and large provide easy access to base necessities - it leaves us poorly prepared to deal with the emotions and feelings that a crisis or emergency evoke and as a consequence leaves us less able to handle the actual problem because so much focus and energy is expended coping and adjusting to these. It's was a bit annoying seeing my little sis almost cry and panic when she flunked her first exam in her fourth semester. Annoying but understandable, she's not experienced that before in her coddled life. I guess it's a luxury to live a life where flunking an exam tops the list of worst things ever and maybe I should just be thankful but I still can't help but wish some people around me weren't so vulnerable emotionally. Perhaps some sort of inclusion of mental conditioning in public education? Sports come to mind as a good candidate, winning and losing is a good start. The problem is that regulated and safe excercises can never fuck you up and deliver the shock as an unexpected surprise - which is what all real life scenarios will be.

>>14597612
>Race isn't a biological reality but a social construct
It's both.

>>14592991
Civilization will collapse by 2050 due to resource exhaustion and climate change. This renders all talks of AI moot.

>>14613479
Unless something else already built it.

>>14604230
>no matter how advanced our technology can get
>is assuming our current level of technology
you have a severe reading comprehension problem

>>14613558
I agree with him that you’re assuming a certain paradigm. It’s not very likely or reasonable in my opinion but it’s certainly possible everything changes fundamentally

>>14613479
Won't happen larper, you claimed this already in 2012

most medical doctors are worthless pieces of shit
it's an industry that wishes you are sick
would they profit if you weren't?

Fun > Pleasure.
Simple as.

>>14612888

So would you say that the second scenario would make you feel better? Your second reply misses my point entirely, I was referring to normal people, asymptomatic bodily damage is common, as is chronic pain without damage/condition.

>>14612937

Is there a point past which suffering would lead to the opposite of your desired outcome, managing its cause? Should all injuries, whether literal or figurative, be maximally painful?

>>14613847
Pic related

>>14613891
What's the difference between fun and pleasure?

>>14613901

Well, I'll just preface that pain and trauma psychology and management is far from my field and even of it were subjective stimuli are the devil to rigorously study so all this is just my take. My understanding is that emotional and physical pain are invaluable signals that help navigate our environment. I can recommend the book "Pain - the gift nobody wants" by Dr. Paul Brand, it's very outdated and only deals with physical pain but it's a very good read and presents a very insightful perspective on pain and the horrors of its absence. I believe many of his points apply to emotional pain and trauma as well. Now, in my opinion there naturally is a point where most sensations or instincts hinder rather than aid survival and quality of life, for example, it's hardwired into our brain to instinctively dislodge anything near or in our mouth I'd we feel we can't breathe - this is a very practical and functional instinct. It is however also the reason some scuba divers drown with air in their tanks and a functional respirator because they clawed it out of their moment in instinctive panic. In the sense of pain gradients it's optimal that the level of pain correspond to the severity and urgency of the situation. A sore knee just makes you walk a bit slower, sitting down on a hot coal makes you jump up in an instant - even before you consciously register what's happening. This is how it works ideally. The problem is when overaction or harmful behaviour results from being unable to either make the pain stop or the persistence of pain beyond the point of any possible remedial action. Chronic pain for instance or permanent psychological trauma. I also often ponder that too much pain or being too used to a state of pain is debilitating. I know a guy with a spine injury and chronic pain who kept walking on a broken angle because he was so used to pain it didn't register as critical. The same thing I suppose could happen with emotional pain. Good thread anyway.

>>14593656
And yet, this is all taken into account when previous poster mentions suicide rate. So EVEN ACCOUNTING FOR these issues, the result of being short is still insanely bad. No need to cope, anon.

Bump

>>14615033

Then why suppose that any amount of pain causes a good reaction, rather than simply suppose that those actions would have happened regardless?

>>14597612
birds aren't reptiles, they are sauropsids. reptile is paraphyletic and still has meaning (mostly ecological), despite not being a natural grouping.

>>14615533

Pain is a sensation that incites urgency. It's a good motivator. Most living beings are just hardwired that way. Pain bypasses the time-consuming rational process and demands attention. It is by nature an unpleasant sensation because it alerts us to a bad thing. Without pain receptors people walk on broken feet, mistreat strained muscles and ignore infections. A less constant and more neutral sensation wouldn't help you survive as well as pain does.

I would not assume good things to happen regardless by sheer simple fact that there is no output without input, there is no reaction without action, there is no response without stimuli. Pain is a signal and it's generally a damn good one.

>>14615954
>Pain is a signal and it's generally a damn good one.

See: >>14613901

>Should all injuries, whether literal or figurative, be maximally painful?

>>14594440
so you need more and more for it to work until you die

>>14615958

Sorry if I didn't make it clear in the above post, (genuinely, I'm not exactly proofreading this).

>Should all injuries, whether literal or figurative, be maximally painful?

If every injury is maximally painful there is no perceptual differentiation between degrees of severity of the cause. A twisted ankle does not merit the same urgency and attention that being in contact with a hot coal does. If every injury were maximally painful we would overreact to minor injuries and perhaps due to sensory fatigue under react to severe injuries.

No it's not beneficial for all injuries to be maximally painful. A sensor able to convey a gradient is a lot more practical than one merely able to detect absence/presence.

>>14593463
>Everything has an end
Except the universe
>but all matter will end
Matter is not even 30 perecent of the volume of the universe and thats with dark matter combined, this vast expanding something will always fucking exist.

probability is a psuedoscience propogated by failures with too big of an ego to admit (or even accept) that sometimes an answer already exists out there that they just don't know yet.

>>14594093
yeah this is it chief

>>14616255

I don't think that there is a relation between severity and degree of pain as it is. Concussions, for example, are less painful than stubbed toes.

>>14592991
Angular momentum is not conserved. All you have to do is measure and see that angular energy is what nature conserves but that is too emotional for you.

Bump

>>14604691
t. poltard incel who hates science and progress and views any attempt to improve society as some sort of globalist NWO deep state conspiracy to take always our freeDUMBS

Go back to your containment board, incel.

>>14592991
Biology is not a social construct.

>>14618386
By this logic Aldous Huxley is a honorary poltard.
Go back to your transhumanist crappy thread or else, you fucking religious crackpot zealot.

>>14605144
>the good chemicals
Please shut the fuck up.

>>14593014
We can't eliminate suffering entirely, but we can eliminate most of it when we exile all Africans and Asians back to their fucking homelands.