/sci/ - Science & Math

that's a perpetual motion machine, it's a closed system dude, it can't propel itself

Newton’s third law. The force acting on the metal by the magnet would “cause” an equal force on the magnet in the opposite direction. Thus, the net force on the vehicle would be 0, and it would not move.

>>14496074
Build 1 irl with a toy car. You can get motion since the arm moves but you would need to do work to separate the magnet again.

>>14496074
grats, youre equally dumb

>>14496103
*equally and oppositely

>>14496074
ask her to draw the forces involved

>>14496074
If you hold a piece of metal in one hand, and a big magnet in the other, you will feel an equal pull on both hands. Considering this, which direction is the car supposed to be pulling itself in? Towards the magnet or towards the metal?

The magnet pulls the metal part, so you would think the car moves forward. But the reason why it does not is because the metal also pulls the magnet, and this force has to be applied to something; other wise the metal and magnet would collide into each other. And because the magnet is attached to the car, the force is applied to the car in the opposite direction. The car is being pushed in two opposite directions with the same force so the car won't move.

>>14496074
>my girlfriend is convinced this could work

*presses 'F' for girlfriend*

>and I am not smart enough to refute it

*presses 'F' for anon*

>>14496085
How convenient

>>14496074
3 questions:

1. Imagine the cane gets bigger. Is the new system different than the current one?
2. Imagine the cane gets so big it's equal to the size of the Earth. Is it different?
3. Now imagine two poles set into the ground, one with the magnet and the other with the plate. Would it move the Earth "forward", you fucking retard?

The magnet pulls the metal part, so you would think the car moves forward. But the reason why it does not is because the metal also pulls the magnet, and this pulling force of the metal part has to be applied to something to prevent the magnet and the metal from colliding into each other. And because the magnet is attached to the car, the force is applied to the car in the opposite direction. The car is being pushed in two opposite directions with the same force so the car won't move.

>>14496163
That's what's going on. "For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction" you prob heard it many times.
This is what that means.

It's equivalent of standing on a skateboard holding a stick between your hands and pulling and pushing on that stick.
Doesn't matter how you hold it out to the side relative to your body, you can't possibly generate a force that moves you in any direction this way.
You are doing the very same thing here but instead of a force generated by your muscles you are using force generated by a magnet.

>>14496163
what?

>>14496166
>1. Imagine the cane gets bigger. Is the new system different than the current one?
>2. Imagine the cane gets so big it's equal to the size of the Earth. Is it different?
no, no
>Now imagine two poles set into the ground, one with the magnet and the other with the plate. Would it move the Earth "forward", you fucking retard?
yes faggot this is 17th century physics

This is what it's like. Imagine you have an object like picrelated. Then you stretch a string and glue each end to the object like in picrel.

Now the string pulls the object to the right on the left side, and to the left on the right side. Obviously the object doesn't move because the forces cancel each other out.

>>14496074
anon, you hit the jackpot. Tell her that anal sex helps digestion and makes you live longer

>>14496074
A magnet pulls metal with the same force as a metal pulls magnet. This can be easily proved if you take metal in one hand and a magnet in the other, both hands will pull each other equally. The reason why you are not moving is because these forces cancel each other out because they pull in opposite directions. Pic rel

>>14496074
Put the car engine on the arm and then move the arm

>>14496074
Here's one that would actually work (in space)

Newton's third law, you stupid mongrel.

>>14496074
This is my first time on this board. This is the first thing that pops up. What kind of retarded section of the internet am I part of

>>14496303
Things have really taken a dive here buddy, and not just this board.
I guess it's what happens when schools teach you to be a better complainer than to be a better thinker

>>14496296
>Nuetronium

>>14496074
it would work but you need to “yank” the car by moving the magnet backwards and forwards

>>14496127
Criminally underrated

>>14496074
she is perfect shill material

>>14496163
>reality is consistent with reality, how convenient

>>14496074
>im not smarter than my stupid gf
Both of you are stupid, keep believing whatever you want

>>14496074

tell her to attach a magent to the frypan and a piece of metal to her hand and go figure it out herself

>>14496074
Both things are pulling towards each other.

You are both retarded

>>14496074
It unironically would work if you used an electromagnet with high enough frequency in place of the magnet

>>14496074
I think it could work, if the magnet part would jiggle, before gas engine people used spring engines, and though probably those were similar to the springs in the clock, I think that pre-steam-punk, whatever the term is, is far from being exhausted.

>>14496943
>it unironically wouldn't.

>>14496082
>perpetual motion machine
is impossible by definition (because closed systems don't exist)

>>14496085
Newton's third "law" is a theory, not a fact.
>>14497003
>closed systems don't exist
Has never been proven.

>>14497009
>Has never been proven.
Has never been proven to exist, thus that aspect of that "law" is meaningless, and it doesn't matter anyway, windmill is perpetuum mobile good enough to my taste.

>>14497009
Well this is why i like asimovs idea of there being a hierarchy of truths. You got an idea in your head, it may or may not work in reality. There is not a single idea that transmutes into reality without failling at some degree, but saying that flat earth theory and newton are both wrong is comitting a crime by omision. One thing is an idea, other thing is a fact and i think it would be rather useful speaking of how those two terms can be more or less equivalent in the real world in regards of newtons third law

>>14496085
Nobody tested it because for hundreds of years "scientists" believed that the words of a 17th century social recluse were sacrosanct. There is no "why" behind the law, it simply is. You won't like this (because it isn't convenient for wimpy armchair sointists that never want to experiment) but the only way to do know for sure is to build the machine in OP and test it. You don't want to put the legwork in, so you just cope with nonsense that any undergraduate can regurgitate. Feel free to prove me wrong.

>>14496284
/thread

>>14497107
/unthread. Refuted in the post above you.

>>14497113
No even a mention of Newton in the post I quoted, faggot. It's a measurement you can carry out yourself, the force with which a metal is attracted to a magnet is equal in magnitude to the one pulling the magnet towards the metal.

>>14497102
>>14497113
>nobody has ever tested N3L
lol?

>>14497139
The magnet is what does the pulling and that post references a flawed test, obviously the result of personal biases assuming Newton's nonsense. While not mentioned, it clearly is implied.

>>14497179
>The magnet is what does the pulling
Oh no no no no... XD

>>14497221
Feel free to prove otherwise.

>>14497279
>Feel free to do my homework
Yeah sure, kid. Next time pay attention in class.

>>14497285
Glad you admitted you were wrong and wanted to prove within an a priori framework built on newton's flawed assumptions and have no real argument against why the OP post wouldn't be possible. That's the problem with school. It stifles education and experiments and turns everything into a matter of homework.

>>14497306
Does the fridge pull the magnet or does the magnet pull the fridge? Take your time.

>>14497306
crqzy how newton is wrong and yet engineers have been using his theory for 400 years without a single instance of it failing

>>14497320
"Engineers" don't have the slightest clue on how complex systems work.

>>14497327
Alright, now the bait is too obvious. Good job keeping it up this long though.

>>14497331
>>14497320
t. seething engineer that memorized a few things and belabors them as dogma, and uses fallacious arguments about past successes (unrelated to the matter at hand) as some sort of proof.

>>14497335
See
>>14497312

>>14497342
The magnet is the source of the force. Object big and doesn't move confuses a smoothbrain like you to think the fridge is doing it.

>>14496074
you don't even have a gf

>>14496174
>It's equivalent of standing on a skateboard holding a stick between your hands and pulling and pushing on that stick.
this works though, have you actually tried it?

>>14497346
>The magnet is the source of the force.
L fucking MAO. Ok this is the best thread on sci atm. How about you go back to watching Star Wars, son?

>>14497353
Not an argument.

>>14497357
Neither is
>The magnet is the source of the force.

>>14497360
No argument needed. It is self-evident.

>>14497364
>descriptions are self-evident
No shit, you made it up. Now tell us how it does that. Let me guess something along the lines of comparing a piece of material to a deity right?;
>A magnet is comparable to God, Mormon Jesus and (name a diety), it's self-evident and doesn't need a reason.

As if the material was omnipotent or something. Even to the religious this is lunacy.

>>14497009
Gravity is 'just' a theory too, retard

>>14497376
And not a single gravity theory explains the phenomena.

>>14497376
>Gravity is 'just' a theory too, retard
Please anon, one unexplained causal link at a time.

>>14496074
same logic

>>14496159
You have to go back

>>14497372
Magnetism is a mystery and it will only ever be understood through extensive testing, study, and scientific rigor. I suggest you read Ken Wheeler's free book, Uncovering the Missing Secrets of Magnetism: Exploring the nature of Magnetism, with regards to the true model of atomic geometry and field mechanics by means of rational physics & logic as a starting point.

>>14497409
Strawman, not the same logic.

>>14497530
it literally is

>>14496074
You are forgetting the metal is pulling the car backwards. You can't roll an office chair while sitting on it by tugging on back with your arms, you will just press your body tightly into the chair and make yourself uncomfortable

>>14496074
Tell her it's not a woman's place to question men in matters of science.

>>14496074
Ask her why she thinks it would move forwards and not backwards. Call her stupid once she fails to think of a reason

>>14497552
Prove it with an experiment then.

>>14497578
go in your car and try to move it by pushing on your steering wheel, see how that work for you

It could work if the magnet would fly on a dj phantom which you control from the cockpit

Of course the magnet truck works anon. But not if you put it on a treadmill running backwards. Then it can never take off and fly.

>>14497586
if you're so convinced that everyone else is wrong just do it yourself and make trillions of dollars and become the most famous person in human history with your perpetual motion device

>>14497609
meant for >>14497578

>>14497586
See >>14497530

>>14497630
not an argument retard

>>14496074
As if you have a girlfriend

>>14497633
Neither is a strawman.

>>14496225
This anon has the right idea.

>>14497578
Try it yourself, get on the skateboard take metal in one hand and a magnet in the other.

>>14496074
It does work.
I got it working first time with a toy truck.
> MAKE A VIDEO OF IT THEN
Nope. Soicucks always cope MUH VIDEO EDITING, MUH HIDDEN BATTERIES.
> B-B-B-BUT PERPETUAL MOTION, B-B-B-BUT THIS FEDORA PHYSICAL LAW
Don't care. It works.

bitches literally cannot into the physical world.
once had one that couldn't figure out by herself how to change the size setting on a pepper mill.

>>14496163
Based

>>14496196
>>14496074

Fuck. I hope someone invents free body diagrams in the past 500 years

>>14496196
I meant a spring, not string.

>>14496074
Magnet also wants to go to the metal block.

>>14497352
No I haven't tried it, no it doesn't work. Now imagine the consequences if it suddenly did work.
Things would be sliding around every which way in unpredictable manner and soon as there was a net positive/negative force that didn't balance out.
Which would happen all the time. You'd start to accelerate in some direction at ever increasing speed less you figured out what it was and counteracted it.
Staying within the earths atmosphere and not zip off into space would be a delicate dance.

>programs gamephysics, writes something that violates 'the third law' by accident all the time, knows the consequences all to well.

>>14498853
I commute like this to work every day. I just stand on my skateboard and stretch out a bungie cord to pull myself along to work. Getting back home is a lot harder though because that's uphill.

>>14498870
just extend your bungie cord on the downhill segments and use the stored energy on the uphill segments, idiot

>>14497578
wtf I did the experiment and it actually worked to my shock! brb gonna go become a zillionaire.

>>14496074
try it on a toy car

>>14496169
how many physics olympiads have you won?

>>14498917
More than you

>>14496163
I love this

>>14497352
it works because of friction activation forces. if you push hard enough you can move and if you pull slow enough you can prevent yourself from moving back, but that's not the same thing

>>14496074
the force is going both backwards and forwards at the same time, which cancels itself out. Or something.

>>14496074
Just kill yourselves
It's fucking over

>>14496074
Try pulling on your own arm with your other arm and see if you move forward

>>14496163
kek

>>14496127
Get a load of this free-body-diagramming faggot

>>14498928
kek same

>>14496074
Looks like your gf is sexually frustrated and trying to create a massive dildo machine.

>>14496163

>>14496943
I'll bite. How would that work anon?

>>14497009
>>14497102
>>14497113
What, is the conservation of momentum suddenly invalid? This is going to be a very hard thing for you to prove anon.

>>14497346
Literally untrue.
The magnetic field of the magnet causes magnetisation of the fridge door. Both the door and the fridge magnet are now magnets and both are the "source" of the forces between them.

>>14496074
>Perpetual Motion Devices using magnets
What would be the best 3D software for beginners to attempt designing such a thing?

>>14496163
Enigma

>>14502941
smegma

>>14496943
no it wouldn't retard

>>14497353
i agree with you but
>ass to mouth

>>14496163
Fucking nature, always fucking up shit

>>14496074
It will not move (other than maybe vibrate/wobble a bit) because the magnet and metal are both pulling each other equally, so the magnet pulling the truck forward is offset by the metal pulling the arm (and therefore the truck since it is attached to the arm) backward.
>>14496144
You can;t draw something that is invisible you absolute retard

>>14496074
The only movement is the arm being squeezed towards the truck.

You people think that this is a joke, but it's not.
https://invidious.sp-codes.de/watch?v=yCsgoLc_fzI

>>14504201
If you think this is obvious, then watch those videos.

>>14504206
How about it /sci/? Care to weigh in?

>>14504201
>>14504212
Unlike the magnet car, the propeller car doesn't violate the conservation of momentum or energy. It's fine from the physics standpoint. Just unintuitive.

>>14504263
Then has the prof. paid out the $10,000, yet?

>>14504294
Iirc he did admit defeat. Whether he has paid out, I'm not sure.

>>14504212
Ever heard of a sailboat?

the big oil and energy companies basically say any perpetual motion system does not work because it'll lose them tons of revenue.

Newton's 3rd law is a crock of shit. Even Einstein said Newtonian physics is not valid

>>14504678
source?

>>14504678
Iunno chief, conservation of momentum looks pretty valid.
>Even Einstein said Newtonian physics is not valid
Relativistic physics has its own version of Newton's 3rd law.

>>14496074
sum of forces is zero.

>>14496074
Force pulls on the magnet towards the metal. The car is way heavier than the handle. The car would stand unless the magnet stood somewhere detatched from the vehicle.
But that’s a guess.

>>14504678
faggot newton law applies to macroscopic bodies not microscopic wtf

>ignorant people calling someone dumb because that person is unfamiliar with the teachings made by actual smart people

>dumb people calling smart people 'ignorant' because smart people call ignorant people dumb when ignorant people say dumb things

>>14508395
"I am smart because I can recite newtons third law"

>>14508417
You don't even need it to figure this one out.

>>14508419
The point of my comment is that calling someone dumb because of their lack of education is a sign of ignorance. Your assumptions are based on your education, but a lot of people on this dumpster fire of a board seem to think their intuition is but a product of their immense intelligence. I would like to see you give an in depth explanation of this problem rooted in the education of a mediaeval peasant.

>>14497586
>>14497552
>>14497409
This will actually work though if you push forward with enough force to overcome the friction between the wheels and the ground then lean back slowly.

>>14496163
I laughed harder than I probably should've

>>14508459
>The point of my comment is that calling someone dumb because of their lack of education is a sign of ignorance
You don't need any education to know this is nonsense. Either way, you're a normalgroid tourist (it's obvious from the way you misuse the word "ignorant") and probably female, so kindly go back to whatever social media hole you crawled here from.

>>14505860
Say you have two celestial bodies, a big planet and a small planet. They are stationary relative to each other. Suddenly, the big one starts moving relative to the small one but that means at the same time the small one starts moving relative to the big one.

Depending on the frame of reference, the momentum of this system is different and thus not conserved.

>>14508470
Of course you're a sexist too.

>>14508485
Of course you're too dumb to even try to mask the fact that I was spot-on. :^)

why wont this work?

>>14496148
Smartest, most conventional and easy to understand anon and nobody gives him any credit.

/thread

>>14508750
It will, it's just horribly inefficient. You're expending energy to move the hydraulic arm. Then, when turning the electromagnet on (and I presume allow the hydraulics to move as well since both the car and the magnet pull each other, otherwise a stiff hydraulic arm will simply result in no motion at all since the forces will be kept in equilibrium), the car itself is going to have significantly greater inertia, and thus move less than the magnet will. It would be similar to inchworming your way forward and less energy efficient than a standard motor to move the same distance.

>>14496163
i dont get the joke :(

>>14504103

>you can't draw something that's invisible

how do you explain the paintings of God in the Sistine Chapel, anon?

>>14508750
The hydraulic arm wouldn't even be strong enough to pull a magnet capable of generating an electromagnetic field of such magnitude.

>>14496074
This is the biggest fucking troll thread I've seen in my life and OP and everyone else in this thread is wasting each other's time by being a dumb faggot.

>>14508895
God is not invisible, He is just far away so you can't usually see Him from Earth

to anyone that thinks that this would work: build the fucking thing, and prove it

>>14508935
>build it
>put it at the top of a decline
>the magnet will make it wobble a bit
>thus tipping it over the decline
>thus gravity will make it go
>all because of the magnet
not going to build it because I am not your servant, faggot. You build it.

>>14496074
>I am not smart enough to refute it
there isn't much to refute
you can only create endless motion by alienating motion from itself
you would need to turn "nothing" into a scientific unit you can work with, I would assume

but before that people have to gain an understanding what nothing is
nothing is clearly something and not nothing

>>14508470
>>14508488
kys already

>>14503224
Ligma sugma

>>14508985
Impotent&seething. You literally need nothing beyond common sense and some minimal experience with a magnet to figure out why OP's pic can't work. No physics, no Newton's third low, nothing. :^)

If you could control the electrical and magnetic frequencies and tune it correctly then yes. How do you think ayyy drones work in 3d space.

>>14496163

>>14496074
Change your girlfrind

>>14496074
>my girlfriend is convinced this could work and I am not smart enough to refute it
your GF might be from the dark continent

>>14512516
>monkey physics
Fark, now that is next level stupidity.

>>14496163

I don't really see how magnets work at all
so I'm not surprised the car doesn't move.

>>14496074
>take magnet and metal box
>attach them through a wood plank
>glue them both to a stick
>remove plank
>see what happens

>>14513284
I mean,
doesn't this diagram imply that for metals to be attracted to magnets, most of the electrons have to be moving out of the screen

>>14496074
Yes, this will work. The car and magnet will accelerate forever in a uniform gravitational field since there's nothing stopping them.

>>14496303
We apologize.

The math generals are still good.

>>14502941
enigma balls

>>14508848
it's conveneitn that the force is just coincidentally the same

>>14496074
ask her to stand on a skateboaard to to pull on her own arm

>>14508750
>turn magnet off